Managing anger vs. Walking on eggshells

I read right past the ADHD part

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Fri, 09/02/2016 - 19:30

Adhdivorce,

ADHD, I think, is the least of your worries. ANY man who holds his wife against the wall - pinning her - - and hits her, well, that is abuse. plain and simple. A man should never, ever, ever hit a woman.

It is not at all about you losing your temper and holding your tongue. Well, that is AN issue, but hitting your wife, because she was losing her temper, or not - - - - - - -that would be a deal breaker for me. Hands down.

Very Truly,

Liz

ADHDivorce...

Submitted by GiveMePatience on Fri, 09/02/2016 - 23:08

ADHDivorce...

I apologize... as I just can't respond to ANYTHING ELSE that you have written here... EXCEPT for the part about your husband ASSAULTING YOU!!! :( NO WORDS that ANYONE might say WARRANTS this type of ILLEGAL behavior!!! It is NOT 'ILLEGAL' to SPEAK SOME WORDS... but it IS ILLEGAL to RAISE YOUR HAND to someone...

PLEASE find the strength to DECIDE that this IS NOT ACCEPTABLE for you.

GMP

We all need to stop calling all bad behaviors ADHD

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Sat, 09/03/2016 - 03:48

As the wife of someone who has ADHD, which is the least of his problems, I continually see posts from others describing behaviors that are far beyond ADHD.

My H has a serious personality disorder, plus OCD and ADHD, and he's an alcoholic. ADHD can be annoying, but it's not nearly as annoying as the other issues.

What you're describing is not ADHD. Your H may ALSO have ADHD, but the more serious offenses are beyond ADHD.

My opinion, but I've noticed that those with OTHER serious issues also OFTEN also have ADHD. Maybe because ADHD sounds "nicer" than saying someone has a personality disorder, many just now call everything ADHD.

We need to stop doing that.

Has your H been seriously evaluated by a clinical therapist? IF so, was the clinician told about the "pinning against the wall"? Told about hitting you? Told about always blaming you and calling you disgusting names?

If your H has been seeing a therapist, but hasn't included you in the sessions, then likely the therapist has no idea of his more serious offenses. My H has LONG refused to let me meet his string of therapists because he says that I 'turn them against him." That's because, in the past, I would tell them the TRUTH!. His current therapist has little idea of his offenses. His last therapist finally learned of some of his offenses when I called her one night after I was fed up with hearing from H that she thought I was a terrible person (?? She had never met me!). So, I called her and I told her exactly what had been going on...including forwarding her emails and texts that H had sent me as proof of his verbal abuses. After that, she told H that she could no longer be his therapist because he had been so dishonest with her and that he needed to go into rehab. H had long been telling her that he's "the nicest guy in the world" and that he wasn't drinking, Ha!

If your H ever sends you horrible emails or texts, save them. Those are good examples to show a therapist.

At a minimum, you both need to see a couples therapist, and bring any evidence of his verbal abuses because likely he will either deny, or say that you're exaggerating or claim that you do the same. If you can show emails or texts, show his and your written words so the T can see what you're also writing.

Thankfully, because my H's dad strongly taught his sons to "never hit a woman," my H doesn't do that. BUT...when he's angry, he calls me horrible names...and he almost always blames me for whatever small thing goes wrong. Even when he blames someone or something else occasionally, or even blames himself occasionally, he'll generally later find something ELSE to blame me for so that he can target all of his built-up wrath.

Thought husband was emotionally abusive, but could be ADD sympto

Submitted by MaggieIsabel on Sat, 09/03/2016 - 16:45

Husband & I married for 38 years now. First part of marriage he expected and did dominate our so-called conversations. He loves to talk constantly. When I would try to interject, he would act confused and say I had interrupted his train of thought and stop conversing with me. I had to explain to him that I have to be able to talk too if we are going to have a real conversation. I once told him he really needs a dog and not a wife. After several years, he got more used to my entering the conversation so there has been improvement there but it took years of effort on my part. Control: we have a joint bank account (also have separate accounts), but recently sold a rental house we owned so all of that money went into our joint acct. that he gets to withdraw from whenever he wants with no explanation to me where the money went and I was put on a tight monthly allowance. Years worth of papers are stuffed all over areas of house he frequents or where he thinks I don't notice (he was a general contractor for years while I worked full-time as a legal assistant for 30+ ys). He never paid his taxes on time and was fined and threatened by state or IRS often. I am not allowed to organize his paperwork or talk to him about taxes (yep, he insists we file jointly and I therefore NEVER got a refund back). You might be wondering why we got married, but we really do love each other. When dating for over one year, husband was polite, would open doors for me, and genuinely cared for me. All these years later, I am really weary though of his oftenexhibited exhibited self-centeredness, controlling , and lecturing (when I need more money for something) behavior. I did think he is an emotionally and financially abusive husband, but now I believe there's more going on here. Years ago both our son and he were diagnosed with ADD. Husband got on Adderrall which, for him, caused him to be highly critical, sarcastic, and extremely impatient with those around him. That short time was awful. He got off of that med. because of how negatively it affected him and never tried another med. We were recently in marriage counselling, but slacked off due to summer activities. Last few years husband mimics my voice to where it sounds like I am a major nag when he has offered to finish something that weeks later he never has even started and I cautiously ask him when he will get to it. I believe we must revisit the ADD piece given my husband's behavior. Can anyone relate to any part of what I just said? Do ADD people exhibit controlling, and even manipulative, behavior along with their cleverness, and occasional thoughtful, sides of their personality? Thanks for listening.

M-I, yes I can relate,

Submitted by StelleBelle on Sat, 09/03/2016 - 19:03

M-I, yes I can relate, although my husband hasn't been officially diagnosed yet ... I'm hoping I can get him there and then to couples counseling.

Mine loves to talk non-stop in what I also call "so-called" conversations. Two-way conversations are rare for us. He mostly talks endlessly about the details of one of his hobbies, what's happening at work with him, or just repeating stuff he's already told me. He normally cuts me off if I attempt to interject with a question. It's difficult to talk with him about much in my life or how I feel about anything because he has the attention span of a knat. And, if I ask him about some task that he committed to doing, he considers that nagging and abruptly ends the conversion. Argghhh.

I would say my H is also controlling, but not necessarily manipulative. He likes to lecture me on things about which I'm already knowledgeable, sometimes more so than he is. He is insecure in general by his own admission. I've come to think that this lecturing is his way of "asserting his manhood." I try to boost him up him in various ways, but that need for affirmation seems insatiable.

I would not be happy with that tax situation AT ALL. My H leaves most of the tax dealings to me, both because I'm more experienced there and because he doesn't have the patience to deal with all those annoying details. (The IRS penalties for not paying or paying late can be quite steep. This is another reason I handle the tax dealings ... we do NOT need to owe $$ for penalties when late filing could have been avoided. If that were ever to happen to us due to my H's procrastination, I would insist that the penalty come out of his bank account or his share of the refund!).

Unless you have $0 taken out of your paycheck for federal and state taxes, it seems like some of any tax refund should be for you. You sign the joint tax return, even if e-filed, correct? And, you sign the back of refund check(s) also? This could be two opportunities to discuss what the refund is to be used for, assuming its possible to have a true two-way conversation on that topic. I would be livid about the rental house money going into a joint account which he can use but not you. Did you help pay for or manage the rental house in any way? Again, in fairness it seems like you should be able to use some of that, or at least have a say over how it is spent. I am a big believer in budgets within a marriage, but NOT one that is dictated to me. I can understand one partner taking the lead there if the other is not financially-inclined or that is the just the method that has been agreed to and works best. Note that on the sale of a rental house, it is likely that you will owe additional taxes related to that sale, especially if it was in rental service of many years. Hopefully your H understands this.

On a positive note, I also love my H, and believe he truly loves me in spite of the stuff mentioned above. He is also wonderful to me on occasion, and it is that behavior that I want to encourage. I'm just starting on this journey of understanding ADHD. Maybe I'm naive, but at this point I'm holding on to the hope that with effort (from BOTH of us) that things can get better.

Stelle

<<you have $0 taken out of

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Sun, 09/04/2016 - 02:03

<<you have $0 taken out of your paycheck for federal and state taxes, it seems like some of any tax refund should be for you. You sign the joint tax return, even if e-filed, correct? And, you sign the back of refund check(s) also? <<

I think she meant that her "refund" ends up going towards unpaid taxes of her H (which is why he insists that they file together.). It sounds like there are no tax refund checks because whatever $$ she is owed as a refund gets "lost" because it goes towards paying whatever her husband owed.

At least that is how I understood her words.

As for the joint acct that he withdraws from....get yourself to that bank and withdraw half of what should have been in there and put it into your acct.

The blaming has got to be the

Submitted by Adhdivorce on Sat, 09/03/2016 - 20:00

The blaming has got to be the worst. Life is full of disappointments and every time something happens I hold my breath wondering if he will decide I'm to blame. Sometimes it's someone else and I'm so glad. But usually I'm the cause because I should be able to see the future. Or I try to help him but don't do it right and get a 40 minute berating on how dumb I am. Do normal couples have anything similar to what we go through? I just want a life partner not someone who is my child half the time and the other half thinks they're my parent to order me around, control me, and punish when necessary.

I think your husband is

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Sat, 09/03/2016 - 20:09

I think your husband is emotionally abusing you. It's your choice whether to stay or leave but the situation sounds very unhealthy and possibly dangerous for you. Please consider calling a domestic abuse organization.

AdhdDivorce, I agree with

Submitted by StelleBelle on Sat, 09/03/2016 - 20:29

AdhdDivorce, I agree with Rosered. Much of what you described sounds like emotional abuse (more than just ADHD) and is bad enough. But the pinning against a wall and hitting you is physical abuse and TOTALLY unacceptable. Many posters on this forum deal with quite a bit in their marriages, but most are not talking about physical abuse. Aside from contacting a domestic abuse organization, gather whatever evidence you can. Old emails, texts, and take photos of any bruising, scrapes. Confide in a family member and/or close friend. You can file a police report and/or restraining order (but a domestic abuse org can advise better on that). Even if he has not hit your children, they may well be aware of what's going on and over time can learn that this is acceptable in a marriage.

I love my H to the moon and back and will fight for our marriage as long as I can. But, the day he ever hits me, I am DONE.

Stelle

No! Normal couples don't act this way....

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Sun, 09/04/2016 - 02:06

<<<

Do normal couples have anything similar to what we go through? I just want a life partner not someone who is my child half the time and the other half thinks they're my parent to order me around, control me, and punish when necessary.

<<<

Your description perfectly describes my H. On one hand, he acts like a 3 year old a LOT...and WANTS to be taken care of, "mothered", and babied. On the other hand, he likes to "order me around," as if he's my parent. Lol....I don't do well with that! I'm an oldest child! I'm used to giving orders, not taking orders!....lol. (I don't mean that as badly as it sounds.)

Are you going to tell?

Submitted by Adhdivorce on Sat, 09/03/2016 - 20:06

Are you going to tell his current therapist the truth like you told the other therapists?

Are you asking me this question?

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Sun, 09/04/2016 - 16:55

If so...right now, I haven't had any contact at all with H's current therapist. The problem is that once I contact her and tell her the truth, she will likely ALSO "fire him". The problem with that is that there are very few PhDs in our area that take our insurance. If she were to "fire" H, then he'd have no one else to go to.

So sorry for your predicament

Submitted by Adhdivorce on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 11:00

So sorry for your predicament. In one hand she can't help him if she doesn't know the truth. On the other you don't want her to fire him. Wish you the best.

Not sure how all these reply buttons work yet!

Thanks guys... It is just hard to decide

Submitted by Adhdivorce on Sat, 09/03/2016 - 19:51

Thanks, it is just hard deciding to stay or go. And he told me if I ever left all these threats. I had loved him despite all this for decades, but suddenly reading this site my eyes are opened to my situation. But I knew what he was like for 10 years before we married and 10 years of marriage. So for me suddenly to leave after his latest rage attack seems unfair to him. Especially since he blames me for making him hit me because of my words/attitude as usual. Usually he ignores me until I apologize for antagonizing him and the cycle continues...

Liz - so you would leave? I'm too old for this crap.from him. I stupidly thought he would mellow out as he got older.

GMP.. I am halfway there. If he laid a finger on Kids or pets it would be over by now. But somehow I don't get outraged when it comes to myself.

Overwhelmed... he was diagnosed as a teen. He refuses to see a counselor, even a marriage one. But I also read that joint counseling is not recommended if they hit you because either you don't tell the therapist the whole truth (he'd never let me) or you do tell and then he punishes you for it.

His other symptoms are the usual: can't hold down a job, piles of crap everywhere that I'm not allowed to touch, stays up all night with the Tv, ignores me for as long as he can, wants to pay the bills himself, leading to endless late fees, everything is last minute or panicked, and of course the blaming.

I feel dumb like I have too many years to helping him, and all I've learned is to shield him from the world so he won't get mad, and to not expect anything from him as a life partner. And also how to convince him I'm SO SORRY for whatever he is mad about at the current moment so that he stops raging about it.

But I also feel "we're married" and anyone else would have problems too, so I should stick it through. He has so many admirable qualities, it's not always terrible. Those good parts are what kept me in denial all these years but now I can see everything clearly. Is that a reason to run?

Thanks everyone any other thoughts I will keep checking back.

Abuse does not equal ADHD

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sat, 09/03/2016 - 20:58

Adhdivorce,

Yes. Yes, I would walk away. There is no reason whatsoever for a husband to physically hurt his wife on purpose.

You are not to blame for any choices he makes. Period. You are here asking questions - Before HIS ADHD gets addressed, you need to make sure YOU are physically safe.

There is no excuse that could justify his hurting your body.

Very truly,

Liz

RUN

Submitted by Mrssanada (not verified) on Sun, 09/04/2016 - 02:54

RUN and dont EVER look back cuz now that he has crossed that line he will do it again!

and call the cops for assault and battery

Certainly, it's not always

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Sun, 09/04/2016 - 16:57

Certainly, it's not always terrible. Even abusive parents aren't always terrible. "Always terrible" isn't the threshold.

>>>

is just hard deciding to stay or go. And he told me if I ever left all these threats.

<<<

What are you saying above? Are you saying that he threatens to do XYZ if you leave? If so, what are the threats?

Threats to your "loved one"

Submitted by Adhdivorce on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 11:13

He said I wouldn't get a penny of money. That he would turn friends and family against me when they learn the "truth" from him (whatever that means) that he will bankrupt us both with divorce lawyers before giving me a cent. Also once said only one of us would "make it out alive" but only said that once, and I was too scared to ask for clarification on what that meant. And that he would never speak to me or be my friend as some divorced couples are, so he would never speak to me again.

I just want to cut out the part of him that is so randomly mean and cruel and critical. I would be ok with occasional bouts of emotional and sometimes physical terrorism from him, if he also apologized after or wanted to change, or if I believed he could change. But his anger issues, combined with his ignoring me, never helping with the household or Taxes or anything and the messes he makes I have to clean ... its just too much I'm feeling beat down and if he wanted to go to therapy or apologize it would be hopeful.

But as it is I have to either accept the bed I've made and make the best of it, or just leave him and deal with the sadness and guilt of my action.

Does he have money?

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Mon, 09/19/2016 - 02:10

Does he have money? Do you have a lot of savings? does he have access to money that you don't?

Does he have money to give a large retainer to an atty? If not, then he's blowing smoke.

I would not fear his claim of ruining your name to friends, family. His family won't matter and your family will side with you, particularly if you have any proof of your claims. (You might want to record some of his outbursts).

Your H is exhibiting the behaviors of someone with Borderline Personality Disorder. If he doesn't have that, then likely he has something similarly bad.

I don't understand the part of "wouldn't get a penny". Men who say that are the ones who are the MAJOR breadwinners and the wives earn little or nothing. That doesn't sound like your situation, or have I misunderstood?

(you'd be LUCKY if he never spoke to you again.)

>>>

So I said "but I thought you had to do this asap?" Based on his nuclear reaction. I didn't say it smart ass, just couldn't add up how I'm always getting it wrong and suddenly I'm on the floor in a head lock and he's whispering "You better apologize " and I do but it's not the.right tone of voice so I do it better and he lets me go.

>>>

When I read the above, it gave me chills. The image of some beast (yes, beast!) holding you in some sort of headlock and forcing you to apologize is frightening.

An earlier reference dealing with "no one should hit anyone" (female to male, male to female) is certainly technically true, but the reason that there is a cultural belief that men should NEVER use physical force against women is because usually it's AN UNFAIR FIGHT. The man is usually MUCH stronger, naturally, and it's an unfair situation where the woman cannot fairly defend herself. It's like abusing a paraplegic.

Please get out of this situation.

If "Things" Were Different? Adhdivorce

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 09/04/2016 - 13:08

Adhdivorce,

I read through all that you said here in asking for help in figuring out what to do? I'm not going to tell you what you should do either or give you advise because I hear....in everything you've said......that it seems, despite the fact that you are clear...that you cannot be "blamed" for everything.....you are taking some responsibility for doing some "Thing" in all of this....and recognizing at least you have a part to play in all of this.

Let me say one thing to make myself clear here in my intentions. If you feel you are in danger of being physically hurt or injured....you should leave (ASAP) and get out of the house if this is your fear? Is this the walking on eggs shells you are talking about here?

But within those 10% moments..... and the times he's pinned you up against the wall and hit you (what? making a stab here..... 10% of 10% of All these moments = 1% of ALL those times? ) Yet...as you say....the other 90% of the time....he's not like this or does this with you. I might say this another way to put things into perspective......he's not a "wife beater" in the stereo typical way that definition is used..... am I right in saying that?

If I hear what you are trying to say.....this is how I am interpreting it?

So what is this anyway? Intimidation and instilling fear in you tactics to get you to stop doing what ever it is you're doing and he's just a "bad person"? I don't get that either from how you are describing him? That still falls in line with the "wife beater" definition and I'm not getting that from you?

I wanted to run down a couple of things to think about from my perspective as a man with ADHD. I'm not defending your H or his behavior at all......I'm trying to help you problem solve and doing it in the only way I know how? I'm taking myself out of "your personal" situation because I'm not married to you. But I will take on the "position" of "A" man....with "ADHD" and giving you my perspective and "MY" personal opinion and feelings toward what you and the others here have said as means to compare and contrast things by....or to? Ultimately....you're the only person who can decide for yourself anyway.....no one can make that decision for you. That includes saying, you should make some kind of decision that you can live with or nothing will change or improve for the better for you that is. We're not talking about any decisions your H has made or will have to make and he's completely out of the picture for now....just to help you problem solve for yourself here.

Liz said...." ANY man who holds his wife against the wall - pinning her - - and hits her, well, that is abuse. plain and simple. A man should never, ever, ever hit a woman."

I hold a completely different opinion here. IMHO...... "ANY "Human Being" who holds another Human Being....up against the wall - pinning that person - - and hits them, well, that is abuse. plain and simple. NO HUMAN BEING should never, ever, ever hit another Human Being.....PERIOD. Man or Woman. It makes no difference what so ever. End of story. It is neither worse....or better......if a Woman....were to do the same thing with a man. None what so ever. If a Woman did this.....she would be just as "BAD" as a Man doing it. PERIOD!

In the immortal words of Frank Zappa....."women can be assholes too.....don't pretend you don't got one on the bottom of "YOU" ...."quote"...."unquote."

Next thing that has to do with this...is what GMP said...."( NO WORDS that ANYONE might say WARRANTS this type of ILLEGAL behavior!!! It is NOT 'ILLEGAL' to SPEAK SOME WORDS... but it IS ILLEGAL to RAISE YOUR HAND to someone..."

PLEASE find the strength to DECIDE that this IS NOT ACCEPTABLE for you.

She's right....going right along with what I just said about whether a woman did this...or a man. It's illegal and is unacceptable behavior. But so is going 100 miles an hour in heavy traffic? What does that prove here? That your a "criminal" either way....or that you aren't too concerned about injuring other people? Moving along with that in mind?

From my perspective and being a man. I've had women "hit me" in a number of situations that were both.....uncalled for.....and in others where.....you might see "why" they hit me...do to something that I did. It's totally unfair to play both sides of the fence here....but that's just the way things work when you start heading down the "justifiable" reasons to do things...and the "letter of the law". You need to take your pick here if you're going to make a stand and you can't pick "both" and make a "good decision" that's also a "reasonable" one? Or can you?

The reason I can say this because.....I'm really not really afraid of most women actually "hurting me" or doing any physical "damage" to me even when I've been hit. I remember literally....holding my hand on this one woman's forehead...while she was swinging wildly at me because he arms were shorter than mine. And when this didn't work....she kicked me in the groin.....just missing my valuables....as they were. LOL I use to work rock concerts in collage and had to deal with a lot of drunk and disorderly people and this was one of those times. lol

And in that very situation....I had in my power...to press charges against this woman but didn't...because it was just part of my job and she really didn't hurt me. I got hit a number of times like this on occasion....but I never pressed my legal "right" to press charges because it just wasn't that big a deal to me. I wouldn't have had that job in the first place....if I was afraid or getting "hit" which actually only happened on a few times or in some more rare and extreme circumstances like this one instance..;with this one woman. Kind of like what you are saying with you H. If I can apply why I didn't do anything to what you are saying....it may give you some insight into this and help you make a better decision?

And by the way....the standard operating procedure back then and what we always did under those circumstances? We were taught a submission hold we were taught....where one person on one side of the "perp"...and the other person on the other side....gets the "perp" into a dual arm lock with your other hand holding there hair with their head back...which looks like someone sitting ont the toilet doubled up in pain...with their head up looking forward. lol Once you've got them into this position...you can calming walk them to the nearest exist like a "wheel barrow" with there feet off the ground and then just set them outside the door and "release them"...at the same time you're shutting the door on them and locking them outside. lol It's a rather "painless" and "event free" operation and it worked like a charm. LOL (not recommended for you here of course...just painting the picture of what "we" did in those situations. ) This is after....you've already been hit by the way. One of the "few exceptions" to any other behavior....that would warrant immediate "expulsion from the premises"...with "0" chance for "re-entry" after that. LOL

And I kind of feel the same way about any other time I've been "hit" by a woman. I have to say from the male perspective....that A) I've never hit a woman before in my life...and B) those woman are no less....."better".....than IF....I had "hit them back" even if I had? Going back to what I said. Women....have no excuse...for "bad behavior" no matter what form it comes in.

The only thing you could argue....is if a man hit a woman in the nose....he might break her nose...compared to if a woman did it....and only gave a man...a nose bleed. So the argument that a broken nose is worse....so there fore......men should never "hit a woman" only because he might break her nose....but it's Okay if women hit men because they will do less damage physically....is a Bullshit argument and flawed thinking and logic here. The real damage and the untold one...is the aggression and intimidation and the psychological "damage" that it done to you.

Coercive, manipulative, systematic aggressive behavior to get someone else to do something....is aggressive and intimidating even if not physically "damaging".

Systematic "nagging"..."berating"....."putting down"....."name calling"....or even "shaming" for that matter ....are all forms of this kind of aggression and there is damage being done....although "not physical." If this is on going behavior...done with the intention to control or manipulate another human being to "change course" and deviate from their normal path in an effort to exert "control" over another person......this is all called "abuse" and it is all damaging to another human being.....man or woman.

A woman doing this....compared to a man "hitting" a woman....is like saying a "wife beater".....is worse.....than a "ball buster" because one is "physical" and the other is psychological?

So, if you've got a "Ball Buster" who is married to a "Wife Beater" and all they do is exchange "blows" in their own unique way......well....isn't that just the "Pot" calling the "Kettle" black if one accuses the other of fowl play....after all?

The one thing you did say here...that is not necessarily accurate (but not unheard of either )...

"His other symptoms are the usual: can't hold down a job, piles of crap everywhere that I'm not allowed to touch, stays up all night with the Tv, ignores me for as long as he can, wants to pay the bills himself, leading to endless late fees, everything is last minute or panicked, and of course the blaming."

One of those....is not an ADHD symtom per se: "can't hold down a job". Is that....he changes jobs or gets fired from them but keeps working? Or is it....he "won't work" and pay his fair share of things?

Refusing to "work" and "find a job"...is different....than not being able to hold won a job? One implies he gets fired....the other implies that he "quits" and is always "without one"...if you get the difference I'm trying to say here.

As OW said here to you.....there is such a thing as "bad behavior" that is completely outside of ADHD or anything else you could "blame" on it. It's one thing....to have a "good" person...do "bad things" on occasion or once in a blue moon which does not make them a "bad person."

It's another thing...to have a "bad person" who does "bad things"...and does those things ALL the time in a chronic on going way....despite what little "good" they do in more rare of occasional times.

If it were me here....I would be more worried about the emotional abuse as Rosered mentioned. The same as my attitude about getting "hit" by a woman...and not really being all that concerned with that.....I would be more concerned about the on going psychological effect that being in an abusive environment with an "abusive person"....regardless of their reason or any justifications they might have as to "why" ...they have to be abusive. Abuse...is abuse. Plain and simple.

The "Pot" can't call the "Kettle" ..."Black"...if they're doing the same thing in another way that is different....but still abusive themselves. I would be more concerned about living in an abusive environment...and looking at the parts that "both" parties involved have to play here...and look at that more closely myself.....in order to make a "good" decision and decide what to do here myself? If you've got ANY part to play in this in an overall sense....I would be looking at that part first....to see where the other parts of the "abusive environment package" is coming from and who is doing what to whom here and approaching it that way instead?

Using the....."he/she did it first"....means to justify either side....is using the same logic and same emotional reasoning...as a child here and is no excuse what so ever for any 'tit for tat" exchange going on?

This is just my two bits into this...and how I approach anything when I'm trying to problem solve. This isn't about determining "punishment" or :"judging" anyone....it's about "resolution" and finding answers....if that is your goal?

J.

Submitted by GiveMePatience on Sun, 09/04/2016 - 14:02

Forgive me for straying off topic here... I will actually keep this short, as I do not want to distract from this VERY IMPORTANT topic at hand... But you TRULY have an INCREDIBLY RARE GIFT of 'seeing things from BOTH sides'... Much like an 'impartial judge'... this is THE ONLY WAY to administer 'TRUE JUSTICE' or, in other words, find REAL RESOLUTIONS.

My point in writing this to you is to get you to 'consider' possibly starting a 'podcast', or simply posting videos on Youtube, addressing all of these important issues and topics... as I GENUINELY BELIEVE that you could be VERY INSTRUMENTAL in 'BRIDGING THE GAP' between the 'HAVES' and the 'HAVE-NOTS', i.e. those WITH ADHD and those WITHOUT! ;)

You could save relationships, marriages and potentially LIVES...

Consider it, please.

GMP

I think the original poster

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 11:11

...

Rosered May I Ask?

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 09/04/2016 - 20:18

What part did you contribute to the demise of your marriage? I ask that since....I haven't heard you say anything in the time you've been here....that admits anything you've done yourself?

What I know....that is literally impossible. Literally impossible. That in any relationship you can name....with two people in it. Each person ...can only account for (exactly ) 50% of the blame....for a relationship to fail?

I see a pattern here in your posts as short as they are....that seems to be only seeing ONE side to every situation when there's always 2. Two stories to tell...and two sides to every story? We are only hearing one...when it comes to any wrong doing or fault of your own?

Let me tell you a story here...that actually happened to me before you get a chance to respond.

In 1994.....Bill Clinton signed a bill called the "Violence Against Women's" act. Within this act....it broadened the definition of what the authorities could do in case's where women were getting beaten and killed by their spouse and SO but the Police were not responding to the first signs of trouble and not doing anything to prevent these murders.

Well....that's sounded good on paper...and it did serve to save lives. This was how it was seen and still seen today.

But I'll tell you how "reality and people" work...in the real world we live in. Out of ever claim and "restraining order" that has been issued under this act....something like, less than 20% of these claims....are legitimate. Unscrupulous attorneys and unscrupulous people come in both genders...and if you want to "use the system" to your advantage and to do what it's not designed to do....there are more people out there willing to "use this to their advantage" ...than there are who actually "need to be saved". If $$$$ the almighty dollar is the goal...and to "take advantage" of another person.....there couldn't have been a better "loop hole" to hand these people and do damage working the other way.

I'm one of these people....and I can tell you....it's not only unfair, it's criminal. My constitutional rights were "legally" taken away from me....long enough to "steal" everything I owned....cleaned my bank account out down to the last penny...and left me bankrupt which I'm still paying for to this very day. It's called...."bearing false witness" and "lying by omission". The part where only one side of the story gets told....and the "advantage" goes to the one who "acts first" and plays the innocent victim who did "nothing wrong."

Let me tell you how easy it is to do as this happened to me. My BPD girlfriend at the time...who I had already told I was leaving and we were long done and there was NO relationship. We were not fighting.....there was no abuse....there was just me...wanting out and wanting nothing to do with her any more. At my first opportunity....I was moving home since I had not fully moved in with her in the first place. I was only there....to do work on her house and was living there out of the convenience of not having to drive nearly 45 minutes each way and work a 40 hour job at the same time.

As soon as I could get the renters out of my house..... I was moving home since I had finished all the remodeling and had no other reason to stay there....The renter....was her idea and it was a friend she planted there for that reason. To keep me from leaving since I could not move home until I had her "friend" out. I told her friend and her daughter she needed to go and I was in the process of this when this happened.

This person (who was at one time...a girl friend but not at that time as I said ) calls me at work..and says she would like to have dinner with me at the end of the week and we could talk about payment for all the work I did on her house and how that was going to happen. I said fine...that sounds good....thinking..."oh she's being more accepting about this than I thought?"

So the day comes and we're sitting there inside this very nice restaurant after we finished...and were walking outside to the parking lot....and I mention something about going home to her house to check on some things we talked about. She said...'Oh....you're not going home to my house...you're going to your house"...and out of no where....here's her friend standing there with a piece of paper in here hand. She hands me the paper...and it's a restraining order or domestic violence which states...that for 30 days until the court date that was ordered....I could not have any contact or go near where I lived at the time. Where I had most of my personal belonging and valuables....all my family photo albums and every picture I had of my entire life. Every swimming trophy, award and medal I had....all my personal records and personal memorabilia and every single of piece of personal treasures and anything of value since...I had moved all of those things out of my house...so her "friend" could move in with her daughter while I was still living with this woman.

So for 30 days.....my "constitutional rights" were taken away from me....and all that was needed to do this....was for this "abusive criminal woman and her criminal accomplice" to go down to the court house and fill out a form and check a box on the form that listed a bunch of "behaviors" that were considered...."violent or abusive" with a propensity for "personal injury" as in..."being afraid that it might happen."

No crime has even been committed here...in order to do this. No witnesses...no proof....nothing...all you need to do, is fill out a form and "lie by omission" which is not required at all...to tell the other side of the story and then getting it immediately "rubber stamped" due to this "Act" that broadened the power for the courts to do this without any proof what so ever. In this case...you are guilty of nothing...but none the less...."guilty before proven innocent" which is the "antithesis"....or what this country is founded on.

The end result of this....was these two women and some friends....rented a moving van....went to my house...and took everything that wasn't nailed down of any value. They emptied my house...and then moved her friend into a spare room where I had an office set up temporarily with all my things in it. They did this while I was at work...before I met this woman for dinner right after.

Then....with 30 days before I got my turn to tell my side of the story.....I hire a lawyer and we go to court...and this woman....doesn't even show up. The case is immediately dismissed...but now...when I go to get my things from these people....everything is gone. Pawned...sold or moved so they no longer had it on the premises. 30 days...is plenty of time...to get rid of a lifetime of personal belongings let me tell you. I got nothing back. No pictures, no treasures....no history of my entire life. Gone....just like that. I went from a perfect credit rating of over 800...like 830 or something like that....to bankrupt....which I had to file since....I certainly never got paid for anything this woman owed me and over two years of work I did to her house for free...including thousands in bills and all those contracts and paper work that I had to document our agreements....seemed to magically disappear as well...along with everything I owed or anything to prove I ever existed on paper....and more importantly to them....to keep me from "proving" they did anything or take them to court. How convenient?

So when I her someone like yourself.....only telling the part of the story where ..only the abusive husband is involved.....it appears to me...that something is missing here...and I'm not buying it for a second....just so you know. Lying by omission and bearing false witness....is a whole lot worse....than admitting the truth even if the truth is saying that you had some responsibility to play in the failure of any relationship.

Who says the original poster has "spent sufficient time blaming herself for her husbands abusive behavior" here Rosered? I didn't interpret or get that at all from what she said. I thought she was actually being quite even handed and was trying not to point fingers or blame her husband for everything as she was saying he was doing that with her? The same as you appear to be doing since that was you saying this....not her?

So....I ask again....what part did you play in the demise of your relationship Rosered? The other 50% of the story....and the side your haven't told us yet? It's not possible that there isn't the other the other side (YOURS and your husbands marriage together)....it's just rather convenient that you haven't told that part here on the forum?

I'd be interested in hearing that side myself?

Of course I played a role in

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 11:11

Of course I played a role in the demise of my marriage.

To Rosered

Submitted by Karinda on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 06:47

You are NOT a shitty person! On the contrary, I always read your posts on this forum with great interest and appreciation. You seem to me as a very wise person, and I have learnt a lot from your posts.
If your husband has made you think that you are worthless, he is the one that should be ashamed and feel lika a shit.

Roles . Rosered

Submitted by jennalemone on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 09:29

It is said that most of our problems begin in childhood. Could it be that your exH's role was to be his parent's caregiver? Was he possibly groomed to be a mama and daddy's boy from a small boy? Think of it. If your son were spending more time with you then on his own family and the responsibilities, wouldn't you encourage him, no enforce him to put his time and attention where it belongs?

And could it be that your role as a child in your family structure was to honor the family and be strong for everyone without drama, filling in the holes quietly without expecting anything in return?

Some of us are hard on ourselves if we are not perfect even tho we are being as good as anyone could. And taking the blame for things and people in our relationships that are really not ours to own. Ahhhhh some of us are perfectionists and believe that it is our job to take the fall for everything and everyone. When something someone else does is causing a problem, we take it on ourselves to be half the problem. It's time for us to take care of our health and find things that can still light up our lives so that we can be lovable and loving.

Hope today is better for you.

The Crux of Responsibility... For Only What is Yours, Rosered

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 10:45

I agree with Karinda .....Rosered. You are not a shitty person....but I think, the only problem I hear in the the things you've said....are in the conclusions you've drawn about yourself and you possibly your ex H's motives as you stated them here. The language that you use is so full of blame, fault and shame.....that I think the worse thing that comes from what you experienced yourself ...is this very thing. And this very thing...is what brings these things on to ourselves in the form of becoming a victim and staying that way. It is at the heart...of the very thing I'm talking about.

You are a victim in one sense......when you rely on.....and give faith and trust to someone who cannot be trusted (the same as with me in my the example of a situation.....that appeared clear: to myself, to the police, to a US Federal Marshals who I was referred to for help, my attorney and even to a certain degree....the courts and the judges in them who got involved when I made every attempt to recover from my loss in any way I could. Even my therapist who was aware of my situation and had even met this woman to make his professional determination that she was a Borderline and a seriously disturbed person along with her friends who helped her for what they could get out of it personally ) I learned the hard way (beyond what is even possible at the end of a marriage where there are actual laws in place to prevent this kind of thing with a real legal contract that cannot be by-passed legally) just how low....someone will go....to meet their own needs and satisfy them if given the opportunity. Actually....in the case of this particular individual....this had become a life long pattern. I was just ONE....of a string of men...that this person and her friends had done this too in similar ways. I spent a year....collecting evidence and interviewing as many people as I could....to help me figure out any way to recover legally from what happened to me. Clearly......this was stealing. Yet....despite the obvious it seemed to everyone who I spoke to....there was nothing I could really do....and nothing that would return any of the things I lost. Clearly......I was the victim here....and I was victimized in a way that most would consider criminal and very bad behavior....on the part of those involved.

You are right about one thing Rosered......no one wants to hear....a bunch of things that aren't true or of no value to them in only hearing what a "shitty person" they are. But as I hear you saying this you're the only one who thinks this....no one else does including me.

I have responded to you a number of times on this forum already to know that I personally....do not get that about you what so ever and I don't need to defend against anything I've said either now or in the past. The one thing you don't have any exclusive rights to here....is in "the beating yourself up department....and thinking poorly of yourself " for what ever reason you can come up with to do so.

What I do get from your posts Rosered......is a lost of shame, guilt and self loathing that seems to come in the form of self pity and needing sympathy. Self pity and sympathy.....need one another and walk hand in hand together. It's normal...to feel these things for brief periods or even a little longer.....what is not healthy for you or anyone else for that matter...is for you to stay that way indefinitely. Taking MORE responsibility than is yours right to begin with...is how this even happens in the first place. By taking on what is NOT yours....despite what anyone else has ever told you....is not a good thing either. Too much responsibility taking.....going in the extreme opposite of these people who victimized me.....was what lead me to that place to begin with. They never would have been able to do what they did....if I had not been willing to take on more responsibility than was mine in the first place. And I did it....to prove to myself....that I was a worthy person who had something to offer anyone. I was so willing...and so eager...to give myself away like I did....I set myself up for this kind of thing to happen....and I just happened to do this....with someone who was looking for someone just like me. I was the perfect candidate and willing participant....who was willing to betray myself ....in service of what was not true to begin with. It was allowing someone.....to take advantage of me....due to the very thing I see you doing and that is playing the role or part of a victim. And it is for this very reason....these things happen in the first place. That is....to me, to you and to so many people who come here to this forum....searching for answers, support and yes.....even sympathy.....but mostly from what I read....sympathy by itself....is like a putting a band aid of the problem for temporary relief. Sympathy and pathos.....will do nothing to solve any real life problems or do anything for your own peace of mind and general well being.

As far as I see it....."sympathy and pathos"....is the Heroin, that a true "victim" needs for survival. A true victim....in the sense of someone who suffers from "victim mentality"....not just someone who has been "victimized" at the hands of someone else in the sense that I truly was.

This comment...that you made at in the last sentence of your response to me...is soooo full of judgement and self loathing .....that it is being projected outwardly in the words and how you just expressed them. I can feel it coming through to me...as if you are making a comment about me within your words.

Even though I know you are talking about yourself here.....I could not help but feel for just a moment..... a hit or a bit of shame coming through to me....that since you've made comments about the length of my post before in the past.....and the within your wording.....the "read pages and pages of details" part...followed by the scathing comment about yourself being a "shitty person"...that this was not just directed towards yourself....but outwardly towards me and anyone else who might have written "pages and pages of details" in their post...to mean...this is how you really feel about yourself and all those who write ...."pages and pages of details" in their posts here....ie: that this is what they're doing the same as you....saying "what a shitty person I am"? I could be wrong....but in the wording and how you are saying it....it comes through to me that way? Is this ....what you are trying to say here....or are you wanting something to come from this yourself? I could be wrong....but what it appears to me as......fishing for sympathy and look at what you got in response? Karinda and I....both....came to your rescue because neither one of us believe this is true and yet....all we or anyone can do....is come to your rescue and give you sympathy and tell you you are wrong. It's a natural thing for someone to do....but it's also not a good sign or a healthy thing for you....to be doing this to yourself...and remain that way. Sympathy is not Love. Sympathy...is the "fuel"....that a victim needs to survive. Without sympathy...there is no reason to be a victim or remain that way since the very "food" that a victim need to remain a victim....is sympathy....not Love. Love and empathy is the permanent fix and is the permanent solution for a victim to rise above this and become a whole person again. Sympathy and pathos....is the like a drug for a drug addict....and is only needed beyond the temporary "fix" you get from it....if remaining a victim is what a person desires for themselves in the long run. It is a poor replacement for Love....and is not Love at all. It is a sign of caring....but caring for whom? If you are dependent and in "need to be cared for".....then Love is not what this person needs at the end of the day. An adult....who "needs to be cared for"....but does not want....or need....to need to care for others in return.....will remain in a child like state indefinitely...until they find a way to take care of themselves and get there own needs met....on their own.

What I here....more often than not...in all the detailed accounts on the pages of this forum...is a consistent theme here that is never changing and always the same coming from the spouse who are married to those who have ADHD. The ONE.....common thread to all these accounts....is a person who refuses to take responsibility....and remains a victim to their ADHD. You can hear it in the victim language and can feel it in the need for sympathy as it comes through. Sympathy and apathy....are two common bed fellows IMHO. And with those two together....the status quo and anything changing or being different ever....will come to a screeching halt unless something stops the vicious cycle of being...and remaining a "Victim". Nothing "Good"....ever becomes of it....because a person who is a "Victim" and who refuses to take responsibility for themselves.....is always looking for someone else to blame...and is always looking for someone else to take care of them and to be rescued by someone else. If "Sympathy" is the drug...that a Victim needs to survive.....then "dependency" is the goal here... to remain that way indefinitely.

Look at your husband Rosered? What did his actions....say about himself and his parents in everything he did? He left you...to go rescue his parents and go take care of them. And look at how you see his parents...as you say....."more repulsive than you". OMG. Is this what you think of them? That they are repulsive for needing to be cared for as it clearly sounds like they do? Or are you feeling abandoned...by a man....who was taught to be a victim and a rescuer....and was pulled back to the fold..... because he was still answering to his parents his entire life...and now they needed rescuing again once more.

By playing the victims themselves....along with this kind of "victim mentality" to go along with it.....everyone "needs" to come help "me". Help "me"....I can't do it alone. Take care of me....do things for me.....show that you Love me by what "you do FOR me". Prove to me your Love....by taking pity on me and showing me your sympathy. Prove that you care for me....by taking care of me. Prove that you are worthy or that you have personal worth....by showing me HOW you Love me by showing me you have value to me. And the way to have value to me....is to give me what I want and need more than anything.....take pity of me and take care of me....MOST importantly...above ALL else.

Is this is what is repulsive to you....about your former in-laws Rosered? For creating this in your husband....and raising him to be a "good boy"....who will take care of us when ever "WE" need it?

As it seems to me Rosered....your conclusions you've drawn here about your H and his parents all have the ear marks of what I just said. It sounds as though....he never really left you or actually abandoned you....it sounded more like....his parents called...and he "jumped'...and came to their rescue. He volunteered for this duty....because he was "raised and taught" to be this way...by the very people who needed him to be that way....for them.....most importantly....not for him or on his behalf.

And if you don't think I know what I'm taking about....I got a very good "dose" of this kind of thing myself growing up. For the exact same reason....with ADHD at the core. My mother was a victim herself...and despite all that she had to offer......caring for others and coming to their rescue...was what she was relegated to do. For the same reason as with her mother...and probably her mother before that. The only thing a victim need to survive and remain that way....is a dependency to be taken care of...and a good "dose" of sympathy and self pity....to remain that way indefinitely. If there is ONE place to point fingers or to put blame onto......in my mind....this is it. It is the reason why someone refuses to change and find ways to get there own needs met and not resent the fact that when others need them to be taken care of...that they find this an affront, like they are taking something from them...and demand that they get their needs met...from someone else instead of getting it for themselves. And when it doesn't come....or when they feel not "being taken care of"....in the way they "NEED" it....they will use any way of creating a situation...where "rescuing" and "sympathy" are needed......instead of Love. Victims don't need Love.....victims need sympathy (or pathos...a quality that evokes pity or sadness) in order to remain a victim and never change IMHO. It's the sign of victim mentality.....which is the well spring from which this comes from.

The signs of victim mentality are clear to me now.... again from my own experience in the past and even in my current one with my wife:

-no sense of humor or see's humor as countering the very thing they need
-easily offended...and very easily has their feelings hurt
-feelings....are the main focus with everything and especially that persons "feelings". "Feelings" it seems...is a main concern...and a main priority always but mainly theirs most importantly
- a sense of entitlement....that these things are "owed" to them by others. Appreciation usually appears in short supply since.....why would you need to Thank someone...for things that are "owed you?"
- has difficulty seeing situations or events...without including themselves in the picture even when they don't belong in it but can't understand why...people get upset with them...when it's none of their business or concern?
- easily feels...that others are not doing their part and that things are "unfair" to them personally
-feels threatened or/or competitive...when they see someone else is getting...what they feel they deserve and takes no enjoyment or pleasure...in seeing others succeed or getting their needs met when the situation becomes reversed. "Why should I feel good or care about those....who are getting what I need and am not getting" This is a very child like way of seeing things.

This is what "destroys" marriages and relationships Rosered.....it's what I see as the root cause despite what is on the surface. This is what gets passed down and passed off on you...from being with someone who is a "chronic victim" with victim mentality. It is infections...and the only cure is to stop the cycle. The Buck stops here. If you don't want to be a victim.....you need to stop looking for ways to remain one and that includes fishing for sympathy and saying ridiculous things about yourself...that are not true....in an effort to garner more sympathy which is like the Canary in the Coal Mine...and the tell tale sign...that you're a victim yourself. The only person who can stop beating yourself up is you Rosered. If you can't find ways to beat yourself up in the first place....it a makes it impossible to do so to others as well. It's all in your head.....your the only one who can change how you see yourself and how you feel inside. No one...can make you....."feel" anything. You have 100% control of how you "feel" about yourself or anyone else and NO ONE person...can make you feel or do anything against your will. Strength of will...and courage...is all that is needed to stop being a victim yourself. Sympathy....will do nothing but keep you from doing this.....

to others...and yourself. You have a responsibility here...but know what is yours....and what is someone else.....is really the most important aspect to this....all said and done. Taking on responsibility that "IS NOT YOURS".....is just as bad if not worse......than not taking on "enough responsibility" and always deferring to others...to take care of you. Either way....it's not good. All that can become of this....is to become co-dependent which is not a healthy existence for anyone or both people....in this kind of relationship. But also saying.....no one person or people...are to blame for this. As soon as you stop looking for fault or blame for anyone outside of yourself for what is wrong with you....the sooner you will stop being a victim...and in need of being taken care of and take care of your self and not NEED anyone to that that FOR you.

By the way Rosered. I just happened across an article about 20 or 30 celebrities who have never been married who are in their 40's and 50's who appear to be just fine....being alone and not being in a committed long term relationship. Regardless of their own personal reasons....there is nothing wrong with them...and nothing wrong with not being suited for being married or in that kind of committed relationship with someone to be happy. In fact....as I read their biographies...it appears....that when they were unhappy and felt victimized themselves in the language they used....was only WHEN they were in a committed long term relationship and which is WHY they chose not to ever get married.

Saying to you base on your comment and then your conclusions you've come to which I see possibly a little differently than you. Perhaps...you are just one of these people....one of many it seems to really not be cut out for being married even though you gave it your best shot. Is it possible....that this is an opportunity....to explore a different kind of life and one you never got a chance to try out and explore? Maybe....it's not that you are not "marriageable" because there's something wrong with you and all of those horrible conclusions you've come to think about yourself...and instead....you are just one of thousands upon thousands of people out there...who are really better suited to living a different kind of life than the one you found yourself in...and now you have a second chance...to go find out what that is and be happy?

Did you ever consider...that sometimes....God works his ways in showing you the door...but you have to willing to step through it and have the courage to do so. Sometimes...that's all that's needed....instead of sympathy...which will only keep you from walking though the door and trying something new. Something.....new and wonderful....that you've never had the opportunity in discovering? Think about it? That's not being a victim right there and going the other direction instead. That's a different kind of acceptance...than the one you are talking about??

I apologize to the original

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 11:09

I apologize to the original poster for this detour. I changed the focus to me, and I should not have done so.

You shouldn't feel the need

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Mon, 09/19/2016 - 01:45

You shouldn't feel the need to say anything in this regard.

While it's true that we typically only hear one side of the story and there are "two sides," when dealing with people who are mentally-ill, addicts, etc, the failing of the marriage is often not a 50/50 blame.

I remember a young married couple that lived on our street. They had a new baby who was born with serious heart complications, requiring multiple operations, and lengthy hospital stays. The husband soon abandoned the family because he "didn't want to deal with any of that." His own parents were shocked by his behavior (and immaturity), and (rightfully) sided with his abandoned wife and baby.

Sure, he had a "side of his story to tell." HIs side?? Well, it went like this: I want a normal family. I don't want a handicapped son. I don't want to deal with all the troubles and time that raising a child like this will take. I have an image of what a family should be like, and this child doesn't fit."

Obviously, there's something wrong with the husband....narcissist ? Maybe? Immature expectations?? Probably? Selfish? Yes?

So...tell me....exactly how the wife was 50% responsible for that marriage failing??? Was she expected to "know" before the marriage that her then-boyfriend would react this way? That would be impossible unless he was so self-aware that he revealed that before-hand. More likely, if asked, he would have claimed that he'd be devoted.

When one of the partners has something seriously wrong with them, both sides may contribute to the state of the marriage, but to suggest that it's always 50/50 is absolutely not true.

Thanks guys.

Submitted by Adhdivorce on Sun, 09/04/2016 - 17:14

I'm very surprised and touched by the level of support here.

Always open to hear more thoughts if anyone has any 2cents to add. I am so overwhelmed by what H must be thinking or feeling I have lost myself, except to say I dread interaction with him in any way unless we're sitting watching tv or on vacation. But even vacations he has made me cry (because I wanted to do something besides asit in the motel room, wanted him to sightsee with me at the unreasonable hour of 11am when I usually let him sleep till 2 or 4 so that was my fault for unrealistic expectations anyway.....

JJ thanks. I'll try to respond without missing anything. Yes my indecision comes from all the pros and cons of each side. I want to look at my marriage like a doctor and diagnose if it's better for me to stay or go. Staying is living with the functioning dysfunction. It has always worked for him so why should he change? If he were to go to anger management classes or counseling I could see a situation similar to overwhelmed wife's post where he would lie. But even if he WANTED to change I've read statistics that say change is very hard and slow, and even if they stop hitting you they will likely never give up the emotional abuse and bullying altogether. It's their fall back and I too would have to work at not being intimidated by a screaming 6' tall man when I am half his weight.

At first when I read your post it reminded me of this quote

Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.

Margaret Atwood

So yes it is the same and awful no matter who is hitting who. But if it were a woman hitting me I wouldn't have just succomed and submitted to the actual physical stuff. I don't know what I'm saying here, except in my situation it was terrifying when he hit me, because he said he should kill me, and I guess his size also.

But if those actual getting smacked times are 1% of the time, is it worth ending a relationship? If happiness is 90%, what is the other 9%?

It's getting called an a hole if you didn't appropriately praise him for something he did.

It's working on a project together and ABC has to be done. I do it ACB but he wants me to have done it BAC. The result is I am a complete moron and I have to undo the work I did to "do it the right way" acting like I sabatoged the entire project on purpose.

It's him never cooking but ridiculing my cooking to the point I lose my appetite.

It's every time he goes away I am so relaxed and happy because I can't do anything "wrong"

..you should leave (ASAP) and get out of the house if this is your fear? Is this the walking on eggs shells you are talking about here?

It is more that he is volatile. I don't know what could set him off. So I am always being courteous and professional to him, as if he is a coworker because he hates me to show any negative emotions in reaction to him. So he acts like he wants to act and usually I just comply and apologize as needed. But every now and then there's something that he's angry about and I just can't bear the humiliation of apologizing for something so insignificant that he shouldn't be furious about and I stand my ground and then I get it. So it's more under my control than some woman who gets beat for no reason at all. Therefore my guilt in thinking I'm to blame. I hide my feelings and my frustrations with him, and have over time lost my love and respect for him. I'm not fully present, and I take responsibility for everything he freaks out about, and I can't do anything without consulting him for fear something goes wrong.

You remember when a woman got disorderly and hit you, and you lol because it was not your intimate partner and it was part of your job. You weren't hurt or afraid of physical damage. And with my H, I feel he could easily kill me when he's hitting me and saying he should kill me. But then he hits me around the face and torso a bunch of times, and barely leaves any mark at all. It's like he knows if he blacked my eye or broke an arm I'd have an excuse to leave him, leave my marriage. So he does just enough to teach me a lesson, keep me in line, and have me grateful that he stopped herself. Then I'm back under his control and apologizing again.

Coercive, manipulative, systematic aggressive behavior to get someone else to do something....is aggressive and intimidating even if not physically "damaging".

That's the other 9%. I think basically he's a good guy with bad problems. But if I refuse to change the Tv channel he will start arguing, and if I continue to refuse eventually he raises his fist at me.

Once you have been hit after that you are afraid of getting it again, so you fall into self preservation mode.

He stopped working early in our relationship and has his own $ so he contributes his portion. So it's not like I'm supporting him.

Yes resolution and finding answers are my goal here. I want an impartial diagnosis of my life and I want to make a conscious choice to stay and work through it, put up with it, live with it or if I should just bail out while I'm fed up and still literally forming scabs on my face.

.....

If I stay I need the reasons to keep me there, to look past his outbursts to the man he can be, to not regret staying in 10 years if it doesn't change, because I'm secure in my decision.

If I leave I also want the rationale and reasons, so that I can be strong and not go crawling back to him. I want to be able to justify it rationally and scientifically so I don't regret leaving him in 10 years.

Hope these.answers helped.

Preaching to the Choir..The "Short List" Adhdivorce

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 11:53

I don't need to rehash my childhood once more...but what you are experiencing is what I experienced in the exact same way. Yes....I could care less about getting "hit" by some strange drunk who is assaulting me because I told them to hand over something or to stop doing something they weren't suppose to be doing. Really. In every case I can remember in doing that job....if you walked up to someone who was doing something "wrong" (clearly...you'd have to be an idiot in that case...not to know what few rules there were at a Rock concert. Really....are you kidding me?? lol )....but there was a 90/10 chance....you would either get...."Okay...no problem...and complete compliance (90% of the time ) or the 10% er's who would turn and start with something like..."who's telling me???" Or something like that. Like they were challenged if you were telling them....they could stand in the middle of a public arena...and drink wiskey out of a pint bottle? lol Like somehow.....they thought...that this was Okay and know someone is pointing this out to them....as if they didn't know??? LOL I don't think so!!! lol Not knowing ....wasn't the problem.lol

All I can say is this from what I know as the bottom line. There are millions of things that people should be allowed to do and have some freedom in doing so and not get called out or criticized...or singled out for doing.

On the other hand....there is a pretty short list of behaviors that are universally unacceptable to everyone.....ONE....on that short list.....is pinning someone against the wall or hitting them.

It doesn't matter WHAT you did here. There is NO justification ...or reasoning your way out of this behavior.....for ANY reason what so ever. Something....somewhere in their mind....they have given themselves the "Green Light" to do this and think it's Okay. It's never Okay and that Green Light they've convinced themselves of.....if what you need to address....and not really have to think about who is in the "right" or who is in the "wrong"....when it comes to that short list of behaviors that need to be addressed....that there is not excuse...or no reason to justify.....no matter what?

If I would feel any entitlement on your behalf.....it would be to demand the short list be taken care of...and it not be contingent on anything that has to do with you period. You may have your own part to play in this....but it's not excuse for hitting you...when other things he tried have failed. It's not the physical damage or pain....it's the cost and damage to your soul and to you as the person in the absence of respecting your sovereign rights as a human being not to have your body violated in that way physically from the person you Love honor respect and trust.

The point I was really trying to impress on you...is the difference between temporary physical pain...and long term emotional damage. The hitting you causes both...but hitting alone is also not require either to do this. As you said......I really could care less if I got :"hit" by a drunk stranger at a rock concert...who was clearly doing something they shouldn't be doing...and they clearly know the difference and did it anyway. And then get angry and hit you when you tell them to stop or take their booze away from them. It's a rather clear cut and easy decision to make...that no one will argue against and mostly....would like that person to leave as well. That is...on the behalf of everyone else in the building who has to deal with them as well.

Bottom line.

Forum formatting makes it so difficult to track

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 12:15

Adhdivorce,

Apologies, It's clunky to re-post your post before responding, but due to the discussion formatting, it becomes very dubious who is responding to what in an active thread in which people start to treat it like a conversation, and I dont want to be mistaken that I'm responding to someone other than you. I have the problem with the formatting, not with what people are saying. You've asked really important questions for yourself.

Non adhd wife. Hey so my q is when it it just "lovable hunkey dorey Adhd" that I should coddle, vs when is it just outright abuse I'm taking/not living my life so that I can make sure he doesn't get mad?

I'm a non ADHD wife as well. It is a hard but absolutely necessary task to learn which of your husbands behaviors are directly moved by his neurology, and which arent. I hope I never coddle my husband or him, me, but what I do when I interact with him depends on whether he is moved at the moment by hardwired neurology or whether he is operating out of his moral habits. Until I was able to begin to know what came directly from ADHD and what came from something else, I was at a nearly complete loss, myself.... often, to know what I was dealing with at the moment, between us.

Every human being has temptations and times in life that they choose the weak or the self indulgent reaction. Neither he nor I are special beings, who get excused from bad behavior. So in my opinion, th question that you ask about your husband is extremely important to your wellbeing and to that of the relation. Its important to his wellbeing as well. You asked a question about a problem making distinctions, in how you're being treated by him in the home. It cant be answered from all ADHD, nor can it help you that the question you asked about sorting HIS behavior get taken care of by shifting from the question that you really asked, instead to focus on whether you screwed up or not. You didnt make him do what he did. He made him do what he did. That still doesn't answer the question you asked, is his behavior from this, or from that, but at least it puts the inquiry where it needs to be, if you're trying to find out whether it's ADHD originated, and so it needs one response; or whether it's coming out of something else in him.

Other people have already responded, describing the specific behaviors that you report that always, always show up in online descriptions of abuse by therapists, shelters, lawyers and other domestic abuse support groups. His hitting you and pinning you to the wall cannot be rationalized away. PLEASE dont justify it or listen and o justifications of it from yourself, from anyone in this thread, or from your husband that he only hits you a little or that you made him do that. Please spend some time reading descriptions of what abuse is, on these therapists' sites, lawyers' sites, and domestic abuse protection agencies. In fact if you need to break the hold of any gaslightin you on your mind, read the law code of your state on these matters, or call your local police and ask. You need to work through to a recognition.

Me, I'd be out the door forever, if I was hit. ADHD doesnt produce hitting. Its coming from somewhere else in him. No, you cant keep him from hitting you again by walking on eggshells. Walking on eggshells will just tell him he can do any thing he wants to you,when he wants, and do that puerile blaming you that you "made" him do it. That's a classic abuse pattern. But we are not criminal lawyers, who know domestic abuse law in your state nor are we running shelters for domestic violence victims, nor are we therapists. To deal with your question, is this abuse, go match what happens in your house to what they say

I guess I'm asking what is the official line? When has it been crossed?

Does the line exist in each of us non-Adhd?

In my opinion about my life, each couple is a combination of two individuals. Neither ADHD people nor nons are identical to each other. So the lines crossed when something becomes intolerable vary from couple to couple, unless it is extreme behavior that nobody should be doing to anybody, to the point that the law and common morality standards define the boundaries. Physical and mental abuse are defined by law, and by common standards of basic human behavior.

And once we've had enough, that's it? Or we go through years/ decades happily and then suddenly the last straw breaks our back? And we can't even look at our partner with love anymore.

These are real, important questions. Your answers will have to come out of you. We cant see you, your husband or your lived history.

90% of time he is fine, perfect ideal husband. But I am blamed for everything that goes wrong and called disgusting names during these outbursts.

His ADHD is not making him call you disgusting names. Nor, to be clear, is anythng that you did or didnt do making him call you disgusting names. Regardless. Those ugly names are coming out of somewhere else in him than his ADHD. You dont mention whether he does that s name calling all on his own, or whether the two of you in the moment are engaging in hurling ugly labels at each other. If you are calling him disgusting names at the moment, too, thats as inexcusable and willfully harmful as his saying you're disgusting things. This is bullying behavior, whoever does it. It's intentionally abusive. Please be really, really clear to yourself that nothing you failed to do, or didnt do that he accuses you of, or even did do that he doesnt like, "makes" him say those ugly things. He's responsible for what comes out of his mouth. Period

There is never an apology.

My husband doesnt apologize when he recognizes that he has gone low on me or used me, wilflully either. I havent heard one, in my entire relation with him. Nor do my apologies, when I've done something crappy to him, set the tone or model to him. He doesn't "catch the drift" about this part of restoring something. So in our house, I apologize, then put effort on doing things different when I see that I've done something crappy to him, and he never ever apologizes. Others on this forum report similar situations about apologies at home. I dont hang my wellbeing on asking my husband to apologize or waiting for him to. It's not in his repertoire. I haven't heard him verbalize regret about big errors that don't involve me either. A few times I've done something that I decided needed my asking him to forgive me, too. So I've asked for forgivenness, which to me is something not quite identical to apologizing. It's a deeper relational thing. I'm asking for something from him when I ask forgivenness. When I apologize, I'm fessing up to my misbehavior, without asking him for anything. My husband apparently can't utter the words, "I forgive you." Which leaves me not knowing whether or not he has. But he can't, which is his thing. These spoken interpersonal moments are not ones that are in his repertoire. Regardless of what I am doing. I've had to develop some acceptance about these things about them. As Supermommy just wrote in another thread, after middle age, chances are likely that this kind of thing won't change for him. I don't resent this stuff. It's just plain not there in his repertoire

I think he does have reactions to his own behavior, but he doesn't do the interpersonal piece that is accomplished with direct spoken apology. My husband who holds himself to high standards of treating me well, does, sometimes, later modify a behavior that he does that is disturbing to us or harmful to me, but he does his work about changing, without talking to me. The behavior just changes. Sometimes a long time later. I can live with that.

Anyway, in my opinion regarding relations I've lived in, spoken apologies aren't worth anything at all if they're not followed by the apologizer really and truly, and voluntarily, changing the behavior that is whatever, harmful or disrespectful to someone else. Actions speak louder than words, so often.

I am expected to not have resentment at these outbursts and to go on as if it never happened. But sometimes he will pin me to the wall or hit me. But that's only once every 2-3 years when I lose my temper with him and get emotionally reactive when I could have just held my tounge

Children by the age of about three, unless they're let run wild by their parents, consistently manage themselves so that they dont hit people when they're upset. Your husband is being infantile, no matter how rarely he hits you You didnt make him hit you, just like a mother who is trying to get through a checkout line didn't make her toddler hit her if she denies the child the candy bar from the rack that it wants.

...I came back to clean up my many typos on this. By now You've written about other threats he has made to you. I'm more and more worried about you.

...You can be abused by someone who you love. What he does to threaten or harm you isn't fixed or counterbalanced by your love. Those are two separate things.

Worrying about you....

To nowornever... Or anyone who is still reading

Submitted by Adhdivorce on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 13:27

the lines crossed when something becomes intolerable vary from couple to couple, unless it is extreme behavior that nobody should be doing to anybody, to the point that the law and common morality standards define the boundaries. Physical and mental abuse are defined by law, common standards of basic human behavior

I guess this is the part that's pi$$ing me off. Other people would have left long ago. Still others would stay forever. Laws now say yes he hit me and that is criminal and he should be put away, but a century ago I would be lucky to have a guy like him. And also my own inner voice (long since squashed) Drew a thousand lines in the sand and he crossed every one. And I kept making it work and staying. Who am I now to say "hey that is unacceptable " and make an ultimatum now, when he's been acting like this since before we were married? He hasn't changed a bit and I hoped he would mellow out with age and it really hasn't happened in any meaningful significant way. So I can also see the point of view that it's my own fault for being so dumb in the first place to commit to him, thinking it didn't bother me.

And now suddenly it bothers me and I'm considering leaving him and tearing his and my world apart for what? To either be alone or find someone else with their own problems. Everyone has problems. I'm a libra so the good thing is I can hopefully look at this clearly from all sides. Unfortunately that means decisions are hard because there are pros and cons to everything.

whether he does that s name calling all onhis own, or whether the two of you in the moment are engaging in hurling ugly labels at each other. If you are calling him disguesting names at the moment, too, thats as inexcusable and willfully harmful as his saying you're disgusting things.

In the beginning I would harass/nag about housework and I quickly learned to never talk about that or his unemployment or his responsibilities.

So the last few years there are three types of conflict:

1. When I want something: I will pick a time when he's not angry and discuss it. I will not demand he do the thing I want, nor will I have any expectation of him doing it. There's a 50/50 chance he'll do it, or tell me to leave him alone. This can sometimes result in some very supportive behavior from him!

2. When he wants something and I feel it's reasonable (or I'm to blame for what's wrong and it's my job to fix it): in this scenario he has a "need" and I stop everything I'm doing to help him. He wants to find his keys, NOW, he wants me to go to the store NOW (15 minutes before it closes). Or I left laundry on the line and it's starting to rain. On these scenarios I simper and apologize and do what he wants and soon all is happy with a minimum of hate speech yelling and name calling.

3. When he wants something and I feel his demand or his reaction is unreasonable: this is where the fur flies. When I dare to defend myself (verbally) against his (verbal) abuse. One time he decided he had to print something RIGHT NOW and the printer was out of ink. This was my fault for not having ink and the name calling started. I tried to say I'd print it at FedEx for him but I'm an idiot and would mess that up so I'm not allowed. I tried to tell him I ordered ink but when it came it was wrong and I was in the process of returning it and getting a new one, but 'Even a monkey could not mess an ink order up'. Panicked, I placed an ink order for free next day delivery using a link he sent me. But then I'm a moron for not price shopping and he.found it cheaper somewhere else but longer shipping . So I said "but I thought you had to do this asap?" Based on his nuclear reaction. I didn't say it smart ass, just couldn't add up how I'm always getting it wrong and suddenly I'm on the floor in a head lock and he's whispering "You better apologize " and I do but it's not the.right tone of voice so I do it better and he lets me go.

Sometimes I do "sass" him on purpose because his rage is so typical it's always an emergency whatever the issue is, I will never call him names when he's in that mood because he's calling me bitc# or a55hole or ret4rd or 1d1ot. Sometimes I tell him to calm down, it's not the end.of the world but to him any tiny thing could cause him to react like I murdered his children in front of him and drank their blood laughing. And then his rage is over and I have to just pretend I wasn't called those things and that it never happened. Because to him it's all over and he feels better that he got it off his chest.

So to answer your question it's never a name calling blow by blow argument. I might get exasperated, ask him to calm down, say it's no big deal, but in the heat of these moments it's usually me trying to get him as calm as quickly as possible. Any sass or name calling from my end escalates it to physical hitting from him pretty quickly (I just cower and apologize until it's over) so I've learned to just ageee I was wrong, cower and apologize without triggering him further, and that's the best way to get it over with quicker with a minimum of harm (physical and emotional) to myself.

and he never ever apologizes. Others on this forum report similar. I dont hang my wellbeing on asking him to apologize or waiting for him to. It's not in his repertoire. My husband who holds himself to standards of treating me, does, sometimes, later modify a behavior that he does that is disturbing to us or harmful to me, but he does his work about changing, without talking to me. The behavior just changes. Sometimes a long time later. I can live with that.

That's kind of what I was afraid to hear. If everyone in this forum is reporting this, then it is unreasonable for me to think this aspect will ever change. Is it a deal breaker? No, but it is one more proverbial straw to carry. I've seen my H decrease the frequency and severity of his name calling over the years, but really, should I rejoice over that when i am a human being and don't deserve that treatment in the 1st place.

It's like living with a bomb that could go off at any time for any reason. I've run out of ink before and it wasn't a big deal to him. It's just one example I can think of where something is just overreacted to. What a disaster I've made of my life. There were plenty of nice guys but they weren't exciting. This is what I get.

Hope these answers help a bit.

Wishing you well. Glad that

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 13:26

Wishing you well. Glad that you're writing things out so that you can look at them.

Coming Back Here.....Adhdivorce

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 09/06/2016 - 21:10

Something...drew me back to this thread to see what else has been said. I too....am concerned for you as NowOrNever mentioned in her last response. In some ways....I can relate to this behavior your husband is displaying....both in my past growing up...and even now with my wife...who I suspect has ADHD as well.

Even in that you are not absolutely convinced...that your husband is just ad downright abusive man who is got what's coming to him......all I can say is....I know what that feels like. Nothing is ever black and white or easy to pin down exactly when you are dealing with something like this...that can be mystifying on one hand...and painfully obvious on the other.

If I go back through what I spent the last two years dealing with in my wife's behaviors. It took a lot of dedicated persistence.... and a lot of putting up with ( or tolerating....things that were intolerable ) in just trying getting a foot in the door, to have anything that resembled a calm, rational discussion between the two of us about this. That doesn't include actually get to a place where we could talk about these outlandish moments and outbursts she's have out of no where....and the completely irrational claims and accusations she'd make along with her seeming inability to be able to see herself AT ALL.....in doing anything "wrong" ...or seeing what she was doing was just plain disrespectful and down right abusive at times.

At this point in time....things have changed quite a bit. Lately...my wife has made some big changes in these behaviors to the point of really stopping them completely. She has really stepped up to the plate lately....and has made some definite improvements in the very areas that I have been persistently and kind of relentlessly.....not giving in....or not letting these thing go.

At first.....like you....I would retaliate and we would end up just fighting over this endlessly in these circular fights that never went anywhere. I like you....was not giving her an inch...and was calling her out on her behavior each an every time she did it. I too....out of abject frustration....ended up calling her names from just simply being worn out in trying to talk about this with her...and from my own exasperation at the time....and the one she is still hanging onto from a couple of years ago...was when I called her "Rodent Brain". (as in a Guinea Pig or Rabbit...in the moment when I said it )

Out of everything I have ever called her in anger or otherwise in a derogatory way...."Rodent Brain" is still the one she remembers when she gets upset and pulls out the "list" of mean things I've said to her. It wasn't the nicest of things to call someone....but at the same time as I said it.....it wasn't the meanest thing I have ever said to her either. That was something I just made up in the moment and never really gave it that much thought. I could have called her "stupid" and that would have been about the same thing as I said it.....that is from my perspective?

What caught my eye...and why I mentioned this...was reading about how your H calls you "moron" for example.....for not knowing the impossible like the printer ink was dry.....so now when he needs to use it....it's not working for him like it should? And this....makes you a "moron"..huh? mmmm? I'm beginning to see a pattern here and it is more than just "vaguely familiar"?

These impossible moments like this....and then my wife's irrational logic and her the judgements that would come from them...are the very things we would argue about...which resulted in me calling her "Rodent Brain"....for completely not making any sense what so ever....and for judging me...as the "Stupid One" for not being able to fortune tell...and see into the future. I would get so exasperated with any justifications she would use in these moments...that always came back to me in some way....and with her refusal to see how completely illogical and irrational she was being...for thinking these things were even possible in the first place?? Once you have these things thrown back in your face enough times.....it causes you to stop....and reconsider your alternatives?

What you said right here....is that moment I do believe......"In the beginning I would harass/nag about housework and I quickly learned to never talk about that or his unemployment or his responsibilities.

This was why I wanted to came here....to tell you what I did...whether it was the best way or not?? And then what has become of it. First.....in making this comparison to my wife...although...her behavior is not as extreme as you H's....the pattern...and the reasons why I believe...are exactly the same. Two different people.....doing their own versions of the same thing I do believe?

And before I list the behaviors to you....I honestly believe, that the difference between myself.... and everyone else she has ever been with in terms of a man in an intimate relationship with ( or for that matter....anyone in any relationship with my wife male or female )........

IS......everyone else....did exactly what you did with her. They let her get away with it...and they stopped trying to talk with her or bring it up ever again because of the cost they had to deal with...every time they did. The only thing I had going for me this time around....was a lot of self awareness and awareness of what I was seeing....and a lot of experience that told me....not to let it go. I won't get into all the reasons why here with you....but...I knew better, even if she didn't?

And the biggest reason why that is....is from going to therapy...and learning about these things...for myself first and foremost. I had my own particular "pathological behaviors" and "patterns" in my past before I was diagnosed...and since I also have ADHD...and had to go through a lot of soul searching to piece these things together better.....once I figured this out for myself....it made it easier to see these things in other people as well.

So let me run down the list of things I see...both in your H's behavior and my wife's a well.

Delay's in processing emotions (in the moment)

Regression and/or "splitting" (reverting back or defaulting to "child like" reasoning ability or thinking (in the moment). In essence....returning to the "child" like a "flash back" to a different time in his life. A much younger....and shall we say......"dumber" time of everyone's life.

side note: The times when I called my wife "Rodent Brian" when she would regress to the thinking of a small child.

Transference. The "name calling" and "accusations about someone else"....now being thrust upon you (in the moment )...as if....you were this person or ghost from the past doing this.

Some kind of abuse....early on in his life....by parents, peers, siblings etc....which is where this comes from to begin with. Probably....many experiences like this...that he's tied together as "One"...but they live so deep in his subconscious....that they only appear at certain times...and not others. Namely......in times of stress and frustration when his ability to cope or deal with things gets compromised.

As my therapist....said it to me "the abused...takes a "piece of" the abuser...along with them."

And in those moments...with my wife.....she became, the "abuser" from her own past...and was now....."re-enacting" her past....by becoming the "abuser" herself. Unfortunately....this is not so uncommon...as you might think even if it almost seems like the oppotisite....of what someone would do who was in this kind of situation since....they "should know better"....you'd think? But that's not how it works and it works....just like this instead?

And thinking back for me....when I first started therapy. I had no idea I was "abused" and my therapist....actually had to explain to me....how it was done and why it was so bad? I had no idea really? I had never thought of myself as "abused" or had even given it a second thought?

That right there I believe....is exactly why this happens. All of the things I just said....are actually what is happening with you in these moments with your H. Some where....some time a long time ago.....your H...figured out a way to get around all of this...and developed a Mal-adaptive strategy to counter the effects that all of these things had on him. I honestly believe....it's the same pattern and the same strategy that my wife adopted as well...for the very same reasons?

And even though....I have ADHD.....my pattern and how I learned to deal with these things was a different one....albiet, for the same reasons...and for the same ultimate goal. That is....to work around any problems you have when you have no idea about any of these things...and just a find something that "works"...and then keep on doing it. My pattern was a little different...because I'm "passive" and therefore was more "passive aggressive" which meant.....I didn't say of do anything in the moment when these things happened like you H or my wife does.

I did things later.....in my own way to get "even". My way of "getting even"....involved a lot more pre-planning and scheming and was less about the moment...and more about "waiting" until the time was right or I had the opportunity. And mostly...what I did...was just silently tell myself as if I was actually saying it to someone....."you wait....until it's your turn....let's see how that goes for you." And that's exactly what I would do. I would wait...until the the same thing was reversed and now the person was on the other side...and then I would be all over them and rub their face it and go...." See....how'd-ya like them Apples....M%&*er F*&#$er!!"...and made sure they knew exactly....WHY I did that to them (what ever it was).

Different version....same reasons.

So based on what I just said....here's the list of behaviors that I witnessed in my wife...and the reason why she did them all.....was to get away with what ever she was getting away with...and not have to cop or look at her part...so it would all just go away and she would not have to admit or be held accountable for her actions or her inability to do things at times. The more I pointed out these moments to her....the more hostile and aggressive she became.

Her MO or Mal-adaptive strategy is by default:......hostility, aggression,anger, intimidation combined with a host of others things like: stonewalling, denying, dismissing and projection/accusations...and deferring blame to someone else or right back in your face...as you being the one doing it. Even though....all it would take is to just mention something that might infer wrong doing or something to do with her...and she would immediately go on the "offensive" in this way ( her MO )...and that is the pattern.

And the strategy that I use to use as in...."waiting for my first opportunity to get even"?

Thinking about the printer and needing to use it.....and that somehow becomes your fault...since you did something in the past to him....that he now is getting back at you for.

What I wanted to share with you...was one bit of information that really did work for me to finally get my wife to open up and begin talking about these things with her. Once she did this...and we actually started talking about these things without a fight or her immediately going on the "defensive"...and the "offensive" after that?

Instead of complaining...or beating around the bush so to speak.....I started calling her out...for the exact thing she was doing as I saw it. Calling it like it is...so to speak.

Instead of calling her names.....I started calling her "abusive" or an "abuser".
Instead of getting upset or hurt when she would start doing her thing......I started "telling her" (not asking or wanting to "talk about it" )

TELLING her......"quit kicking the dog...and taking your problems out on me what ever they are. I've got my own set of quirks and problems to deal with....but YOUR personal problems...are NOT my personal problems. QUIT KICKING THE DOG and making your problems about me!!"

What I didn't do...was what you and everyone else does. They stop trying...to avoid the consequences and never bring these things up again. Which is exactly what they learned will happen....every time they do what they do.

And the interesting thing with my wife....she'd say "I've never been with anyone who does what you do." That part....I'm sure of!! LOL

But her response....each time I called her on the carpet like this.....was the threaten to leave. But then never does. I realized...this was also just....part of the same pattern. When all else fails...right? This is and has been her default...within the pattern itself.

And look at what is happening and or has happened with you? As NowOrNever mentioned....about the ...."threats". mmmmmm?????

When ALL else fails...right?? and what was the goal here anyway?? To get you to stop doing...what ever you're doing...so he won't have to look at himself or admit any wrong doing?

You mentioned...that you noticed him change on his own without your input? That goes right along with what I'm saying as well with my wife. She not going to verbally "admit" or "apologize" for doing these things......even though....I did finally get my two bits in with her...and show her how what she was doing with me....was so hurtful at times. By the time she opened up with me...it wasn't that hard for her to see the obvious. What was keeping her from being able to see these things before....was in part....because....."if it's not broken....don't fix it" (the mal-adaptive strategy that is ) If it works and keeps working to keep yourself from seeing what you don't want to see.....well.....why stop....if it works??

But when it didn't work with me...and then she had to go to her default...and start to threaten which was little more than a "bluff"....and then the "bluff" didn't seem to work? She ran out of road and options left to deal with. Either she really "left" and didn't come back....or she "stayed" and did what she didn't want to do right from the beginning. To talk about and admit...what she didn't want to talk about or admit.

My wife may not have actually "hit" me....but in my case....I would have almost preferred that she did in one respect. What she was doing....was abusive in an on going way. Instead of hitting me...she defaulted to "threatening to leave" as her particular avenue of "choice" within the strategy itself.

What I did...I can't really tell someone else how to do. I did what I did....pulling a lot of things together...along with my nature...which is the opposite of NOT saying anything....and leaving sleeping dogs lie. I just did it differently than I did in my past....and instead of name calling, getting upset and angry or retaliating with passive aggression. I "called a spade a spade"....and told it exactly as I saw it and left it right there each time. Eventually....she heard it and started to process it after enough of these times.

Repetition and learning...go hand in hand here....but being accurate...and knowing what you are seeing.....you've got to know first I think in order to do this. That....and you might need to grow some Cajonies yourself.....if you haven't already? Sorry to be blunt about it in that way....but women can grow "a pair."...just the same as men.....using that metaphor for courage.

As FDR put it....."the only thing to fear...is fear itself." Stick and stones....man.....stick and stones.

Imagine that we're talking

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Mon, 09/19/2016 - 02:15

Imagine that we're talking about a parent/child relationship. The parent is ok/good/decent 99 days out of 100. BUT....1 out of 100 days (which is about once every 3 months), the parent illegally physically abuses the child.

Or said another way....if the parent gives the child 99 meals that are good, and 1 meal that is poison, should the child remain with the parent, particularly when this cycle repeats every 100 days or so?

Should the child stay with that parent because "most of the time" the parent is ok? Uh no.

HI Adhdivorce....

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 09/19/2016 - 10:29

I just read through your posts and several written to you; I thought I would jump in here just to say a couple of things....I have experienced both sides of where you are....And the one thing I had to do to break the cycle was to walk away from trying to please, succumb or change my convictions concerning life to fit her way of living life....Boundaries!

In other words....Example: Starting your day....You made a comment that he likes to sleep well over into the afternoon at times.....Well same here, I would spend hours of wasted time hanging out on Vac or on weekends trying to fit into that mold....What we don't even realize is what is going inside us when we start adjusting our lives to something we feel is dysfunctional just to please or be with our mates....It seems obvious to me you don't even know who you are any longer....That is sad...I know this, because like I said, same here....When you love someone, and want to be with them, it's easy to get caught in this trap....

Nothing changed for me until it quit being about her life style and starting being about what I wanted in life...Do not let guilt drive you!....You do not have to be a bad wife, to live in a responsible way to yourself....

If my wife is sleeping on Vac. until late morning; she will find me down at the diner having a huge breakfast or maybe 20 miles into a bike ride or maybe I've been on the beach reading for 3 or 4 hours....I feel no guilt for going to bed at 10 and getting up at 6....(It's as much who I am, as laying in the bed until noon is who she is) And starting my day... You cannot keep allowing the other person to dictate to you, what is good for you!....Do you see how that is dysfunctional??

Make a list of what you like; and how you would mange your life; if he didn't exist.....You need to find out who you are, Don't misunderstand, this isn't about rebellion or not being a loving, caring wife...It's about breaking bad habits and ending the manipulation and abuse.....

Because of what you have described here about his Volatility and desire to control you....Which is abuse....I would go to a counselor alone first and let him help you understand you....When I was adjusting my life, and killing myself trying to run behind her....I got very angry and bitter....All I could focus on was what was destroying my life....Don't keep this pattern going, it will just end in brokenness....

A councilor would take him a part about the abuse and lack of respect for you and your life....Of course he knows this....

Please get help.....And most of all find out who you are, and be true to yourself.....Whether you need to leave or not?? You will know, if he refuses to accept that God loves you, and you are important, and that you have a life, that your going to live, that looks nothing at all like his!.....Blessings.....

I'm going to pray for you both....adhdivorce....

This is just abuse

Submitted by vabeachgal on Tue, 09/06/2016 - 21:29

Forget the ADHD component. This is abuse.

Bulk Reply to everyone about everything

Submitted by Adhdivorce on Tue, 10/04/2016 - 12:20

Q1: So in none of your marriages there is occasional hitting during those explosive ADHD anger episodes? (How do normal couples fight? you assert yourself? you yell/call names? - in my house I assert myself and then either he agrees generously to my assertion, or he belittles my assertion and I give up because if I push too hard he will get emotionally and maybe eventually physically violent, so I hid my feelings)

Q2: Why is hitting worse than other behaviors? Why is it a relationship ender and other faults are not? Everyone has faults, no one is perfect. He is nice and generous, wonderful to friends and family and has so many good qualities. I feel he's not himself during these episodes, although he's said he feels better when his anger is over (while I feel worse) so it must be therapeutic for him to 'get it out." So I have to leave, mess up my whole life and his because of this?

to overwhelmedwife on Mon, 09/19/2016 - 02:10

Answering your qs... He has money, I have some but not a lot of separate savings. He has access to money I don't have access to, he could give a large retainer to an atty. He could tell my friends/family some of the stuff I did in college before I met him, and I know I might sound like the innocent wife on this board, but before I met him I was into some bad things, and so that would definitely affect my family if they knew stuff I did.

I don't understand the part of "wouldn't get a penny". either. I've worked my whole life and he comes from a wealthy family. I don't know why he would want to take my money, when he has his own money he has gotten from them. But he describes 'our' money as 'his' money during arguments when I try to say why I want to leave, so I think he is trying to scare me into staying.

That's kind of how I feel, and I guess my excuse why I'm afraid to stand up to him. I wish I was more assertive but he taught me early on that contradicting him ended in punishment of some kind (stonewalling, etc) and agreeing with him resulted in rewards (either niceness or at least i wouldn't be punished). He is stronger mentally and physically. But there are women shorter than me with bigger/taller husbands and they stand up to them, so that's not a good excuse.

I guess my marriage is stuck in this pattern because I'd be too meek to address this in a matter of fact way when he is calm. AND EVEN IF I WAS BRAVE ENOUGH, I would never be able to hold my ground or 'leave the room' when his anger did show up the next time. I would go right back into soothing and placating him and taking the blame. AND EVEN IF I WAS BRAVE ENOUGH and everything went well, it would probably be years before the change was permanent. We would make mistakes and blame each other and that's what marriage is about, right? So I'm either stuck where I currently am, or I have to "fight" for my marriage that I'm so over. And it all just feels unfair to him, because it's not his fault I never stuck up for myself in the beginning and it got this bad. And it's not his fault I'm just sick of him and his tirades now, when I've tolerated it for so long... to suddenly leave him seems unfair.

to JJamieson on Sun, 09/04/2016 - 13:08 i already responded to this post but some more background

Correct, he's not a wife beater in the stereotypical sense. It would be easier for me to choose to leave if he was. But he's an affluent white guy, funny, charming to everyone, generous, helpful, wears his heart on his sleeve. But with me alone it's different, when he is in a certain mood. I don't know how often he's in the mood. 40% of the time to 5% of the time, depending on whatever factors they are. But then that translates to him escalating to hitting me 1% of the time, regardless. Namecalling, maybe 3% of the time. Blaming, is usually 100% of the time, even in front of his or my family he will openly say I lost his keys, etc.

to NowOrNever on Mon, 09/05/2016 - 12:15 again i already responded to this but had more thoughts

I am researching abuse, and the more I find out, the more I see it in his every day interactions. A slight change of tone of voice that used to make me jump 15 years ago, and even 3 months ago, now I just see what he is doing and the benefit it gets to him. I read " Why does he do that" and it's clear, he has a wife who does everything around the house he's not willing to do, which is pretty much all the upkeep. In exchange for showing me his anger at specific critical times, he gets someone who is afraid to provoke him and so he can act or say or do usually anything without me saying a word.

But he has never cheated on me, doesn't abuse drugs or alcohol, though he had plenty of times to do so as he reminds me.

to JJamieson on Tue, 09/06/2016 - 21:10

I see your points, and the process needed to change the dynamic in my marriage. But read the above where I wrote AND EVEN IF I WAS BRAVE ENOUGH... that paragraph. I'm so pissed off my eyes are now open to how he treats me. Everything wasn't fine before, but I was just numb and disassociated, and suddenly I'm aware of everything and I just want to bail on the whole thing.

Leave. Screw this, I have no feelings left for him anymore except guilt if I go. I'm just going to go and leave him.
Stay without changing the system. I could remain where I'm blamed for everything and take the blame, even now that I'm aware it's happening. Remain in the functioning dysfunction. Lie in the bed I made.
Stay but try to change things. I could remain where I am and "fight" for my marriage to be a 50/50 healthy marriage. This would result in:
1. He eventually changes. (1-10% chance) He fights back, wants the status quo, many months and years pass, and finally he changed - yay! Maybe he went to batterer's class, but he is one of the few people that stops hitting AND emotionally abusing.Abusive men and women get many benefits from their control over others, and even if I tried to change, to motivate him to change, even if he went to batterer's class for a year, the statistics are against him having a full change. Even "successful" abuse cases only count a lack of physical abuse in the last two years a "success". But for the vast majority, emotional abuse, blame, name calling all persist forever. The abusive person uses these tools instead of physical violence, but the violence is gone. I am rewarded for my efforts. But will I ever love him the same way again, especially after the last time he hit me? Will I always feel this way, like a martyr, sacrificing my life to someone? Now my eyes are open, do I even want this person who is capable of treating me this way?
2. He only barely or changes - same scenario as above, except more likely to happen. I'm not tough enough to insist on being treated well when he's angry, so we go back and forth trying to get better but his heart's not in it and neither is mine. And 10 years from now I feel like I wasted the last 10 years. But now I'm 10 years older and even less likely to leave.
3. He doesn't change - the most likely scenario. I try meekly to create boundaries, and he stomps all over them. Like the one time he called me an A-hole. It had never happened before, so I was trying to be assertive and said I don't want you to call me an A-hole ever, please. He called me an A-hole literally like 20 times the rest of the day. The next day it was forgotten and he never called me it again. But the point is, any lines or boundaries I try to make, he just laughs at it. And so my lines are just pushed further back forever. And my trying to create boundaries just reinforces for him his ability to crush them.

Listen, I appreciate all your replies and your thoughtfulness that went into them. And I will also say that an abuser is an abuser, whether male or female.

But I have to say, and I'm sorry to say it, because I'm crying writing this, that it might be easier for you to stand up to her, because she wouldn't be able to hurt you. And I mean physically. I mean, men are hit by their wives and are fearful and that is terrible, but usually the reality is that men are physically bigger and more powerful. I don't know what any of that means, or what it has to do with you or me. Maybe it's an excuse for me not "growing a pair" and standing up to him. It probably is. But it's probably partly true in my case that I'm afraid in those moments when he's going ballistic that he will beat me up or even kill me (especially when he is hitting me and says "i could kill you right now, I should kill you right now)

I guess, looking at the above options I made, it doesn't look like I have much long term hope for my marriage. And many marriages have survived much worse and come out stronger. But maybe I'm too weak to fight for the marriage or for myself. Maybe I will just leave through the back door one day and he will always wonder why I left, never putting his affect on me to blame. I lost my love for him so gradually, but kept pretending to him and myself I love him. And this latest attack just makes me want to throw in the towel.

I don't know if it's worse for men or women to be in an abusive situation. Even gay couples have abusive relationships, I did research. So to say what I said was unfair I think. If even two women have a relationship where one can be violent with the other one, then abuse is not based on physical size and strength. Abuse is based on the disposition and personality of the two people in the relationship, whether they are male or female, gay or straight.

to anyone left still reading

I think I haven't left because partly he tore down my self esteem. No one who punched you on the first date would get a second date. I am religious and believe in marriage and that is making everything so difficult, especially when he had done this behavior before we got married.

I guess if you guys can answer Q1 and Q2 at the beginning of this, it may help me get some understanding on what constitutes normal.

Constructs......Adhdivorce

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 10/04/2016 - 14:07

What constitutes "normal"? I think that is an excellent question to ask and I for one do not have an exact answer for this myself? Maybe better to ask..."what is NOT normal" and approach this from that direction?

Sharing here an experience I had not all that many years ago...where a group of people...with fore sight and intention....stole from me in a way that had worked for them before (as I found out after the fact ). To put it bluntly...I was conned into believing and trusting people...who should not have been trusted but by design within their goal....they deceived me with that intention in mind? Clearly...this was illegal by any laws or statutes and my understanding before this...was that what they did was not only punishable...but I had recourse available to me and could see no other way around this for them? I knew where these people lived and further....one of them had been in prison ( I find out after the fact.... a category 5 felon...meaning 5 felony convictions with time served for embezzlement and identity theft and then released ). There were men and women involved but the main perpetrators were women including the felon who actually was behind the plan since she had the most experience with this herself.

Not knowing what they new...was part of my problem. I thought it would be a simple matter of calling the Police and setting this easily which only proved how little I knew? It was the Police themselves...who were the first to set me straight on this and I found out the hard way that what the law says and what actually "is in reality" are two different things? I was always remember the detective who was kind enough to take the time and not blow me off like I experienced at first when I made a simply request that the Police do something for me and help me recover from my loss. The first call I made went something like this " Yes...they broke the law....but weren't not going to do anything about it. We do not have the man power or the time to waste on personal injury crimes or this nature and if we arrest these people....they will be immediately released since the DA will not prosecute a crime...that does not have a pay off with a likely hood that a conviction will be made." In other words...they only have so many courts...and so many public prosecutors and with the back log of cases and the number of these being over turned anyway....they were not going to waste their time with cases that had a low percentage of success in convicting these people so....they had a policy of not even arresting them to conserve on wasted taxpayer dollars and a limited amount of resources which only burdened the system which means....anyone who knows this....knows that they will not suffer any consequences for their crimes so therefore....no need to not do them at will anytime they choose?

The kinder detective who took pity on me spent more time explaining the way things really are in the reality of what is? As he said this to me...he told me a couple stories of what had just happened with him personally only a week earlier as just one case in point? He said " I had been following this perp for a while and had noticed him enter a suspect location known for fencing stolen goods and identity theft. When he came out of the building...i followed him to the corner and he got on a pay phone and I took advantage of this opportunity and made an arrest since he had a record for this thing from the past and I could legally stop him for contacting a known source without having any other probable cause. When I searched him....he had a dozen or more credit cards of different people on him and none of them had any relationship to this person and they all were reported as stolen cards or forgeries. I took him in and you'd think....this would be a slam dunk case with nothing standing in the way of an easy conviction for the DA's office to prosecute? Fours hours later after this person was booked and arrested...he was released as the DA was not going to file charges against him and he was free to go."

As it was explained to me in relationship to resources and man power (tax money and the number of cases at large)....as was said to me " he was a little fish...in a big pond and we're only going after BIG fish and throwing the little ones back. And you...are a little fish in that same BIG pond and why (they) just aren't going doing anything about this and this is the reality that you are dealing with here? I could go arrest ALL these people legally and within my power to arrest them....but it won't go anywhere and they will be released so I can't waste out time when we know the next step will never happen when it comes time to for the second part of the process which is the one that we have no control or say in the matter? And these people....who did this to you.....know that and they know exactly how far that line is ( or boundary ) to go just this side over the line...but not go too far so they won't get caught."

This is a phenomenon of a combination of things all working together and is not a simple concept to apply a simple answer to in order to understand it? I did not want to understand it...but yet I was forced to and come to my own understanding now....that was entirely different than what I believed? I had a false sense of security that these people were counting on...and they lulled me into walking right in to it by gaining my trust first in order to do what they did. All they needed was my trust....once they had that...they were free to do what ever they wanted knowing nothing would happen to them?

So what is normal about any of this....would be my first question to ask here? What is accepted practice...might be a better way to word it and within what is accepted......comes from experience and nothing else. What the social norms or religious constructs say and any laws that are known here....have little of nothing to do with anything here which clearly I learned the hard way? Once you have this experience....now you know the way things work if you've never needed to work the system or have it work for you before? It only takes once....to no longer be naive but being naive...is just a fact of life when you've never had an experience before and you don't know how things really work? On paper...it says something different....that's what everyone is taught and what you understand as a means to follow for yourself?

I was so appalled, shocked and racked with fear...it was almost paralyzing the effect this had on me with no means to do anything which left me vulnerable for these people to do what they will with me and had further plans of using this to their advantage to see what more they could get by using this against me as leverage in their efforts. This I was warned about and these people were very arrogant and full of themselves that they even taunted me and threatened my family by contacting them to further harass me in their efforts to take away any ability I might have or will to pursue them any further? They were by no means done....with only stealing from me....now they had to cover their tracks and make sure I had no back door to come after them which was by means of intimidation and harassment. Talk about throwing insult to injury here...it was devastating but the night mare was not over yet? If it wasn't the fact of this one detective...who took pity on me and from him I could see....he was not at all happy about what he was seeing...and took it upon himself to give me some added extra curricular help which he made clear that he was only doing this as a one time favor and I could not expect anything more than a helping hand with no more in the future? His goal was to make these people stop any further harassment so they would simply leave me alone after the fact? The warnings made it clear to him...that nothing would do this unless there was some cost to pay on their end which at this point....they were feeling very free from anything coming in between them and what they were trying to accomplish?

He put me in touch with a US Federal Marshall who by any standard you could call on him....was a federally paid bounty hunter who's only job was to arrest people with the freedom from any agency above or below him to answer to and he was not restricted by the same local county or government laws and worked covertly and secretively and with no one to answer to except the President himself? This guy had been for the past 20 years....an undercover Narcotics agent (like Serpico ) and he knew the ropes...so to speak...and knew how to work the system that actually paid his salary. Getting to the results of this...he and two other Marshals in full Swat Gear....raided the premises of one of two of these ladies and made an arrest on the one ( the Cat 5 felon )....for an old warrant that she had forgot about for not showing up for a court date one time. This served to do two things since she was again released the same day...but now there was fear involved and the point being.....these agents were not nice about what they did..and as it was said to me by the one...."we'll be breaking the door down and scaring the piss out of them...you can count on it. It's what we do." And they did...and the rats began to scatter and they all rolled on each other and told me everything I wanted to know in order to save their own asses since at that point....there is no honor amongst thieves any more...when the law actually is being trust upon them when there ego's were telling them otherwise? This sobered them all in a hurry ...and it served to do exactly what the detective had told me he would do.....:"make them leave me alone and in peace even if I was not getting anything more back from my losses.....the peace of mind was worth more....than all the things I had lost which seemed superficially in comparison to that?

That was a gift.....given to me by a very kind and generous police officer and I will always be indebted to these men for doing me this enormous favor. It was not required by any means to do this and it only served one person in all of this...and that was only me? The respect and admiration I have now when I see what police are up against and the humanity that is there that you might not always hear about...restored my faith and my ability to trust that there are people out there who will help those when they feel that there is not hope in the system...but not in people willing to step up the plate and take care of other people...even at their own expense sometimes?

What I see in all of this that is normal and not normal....is the callous disregard for people....and then those who are willing to step up to the plate and do something about it. Laws, rules and constructs...have little or nothing to do with it at the end of the day?

I'm still reading

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Tue, 10/04/2016 - 14:38

Adhdivorce, I don't remember all the details of your life in earlier posts than this one. I think you're telling your truth here. There are others active on the site who struggle to be faithful to their religious beliefs and ideals, and simultaneously discover and deal with the reality that they live that have parts to it that do NOT fit with religious teachings and ideals.

You've put Q1 and Q2, to us, so I hope many more people answer your questions than just me....you need those answers coming from multiple lives. But until they come to answer, here are mine

Q1 There is never hitting in our marriage.

Q2 I don't think hitting is worse than SOME other assaultive behaviors. I do think hitting has been well studied by those who study the patterns of domestic abuse. Hitting leads, or will tempt, the hitter to hit more. You never know how far the hitter will go in using hitting. Hitting is bad because it can lead to things like broken bones, or the abused being shot. But I think that other assaultive behaviors, including psychic wounding and deliberate gaslighting are very damaging indeed. And there's a lot studied about that, too.

Please don't rationalize that your husband hitting you when he loses it, every now and then, is not as damaging as other kinds of assaults. It's ALL bad. You need to take steps to remove yourself from it ALL. By different means. I don't mean divorce. That's a different decision.

I mean your toleration of being assaulted in any way will never ever make it stop, and you owe it to yourself to take care of yourself.

I can't remember whether or not you have been having this done to you in the household, but nobody in your offline life knows about it or not, but you NEED someone offline involved in this with you, on your behalf.

You need someone to help you think things through, if he has partially broken your spirit and you're afraid. Anyone hit develops fear. You know this seeing what happens to a pet when its owner hits it. You're at least as good and as worth taking care of as a puppy being kicked around every once and a while. You'd never rationalize that it's OK that the dog is being kicked into submission, because the kicking only happens every once in awhile.

I very much appreciate what you said about physical fear. Yes, children hit parents, 80 year old men hit their adult sons, and small women hit big men, but statistically you're right, women tend to be smaller than men. I've always thought that if women and men were the same height and about the same body weight, a lot of this socking people around would be less.

Adhdivorce, you can rationalize your fear. Meaning, tell the truth of what you fear and that it's realistic to fear it, but by clinging to that truth, rationalize away doing anything different for yourself.

You may have to take working this through in stages. I sure wish that you had someone who first, knew what was going on in the home, and second, took you seriously and listened to you, and third (this will take that person out of the friend or aunt category) stuck with you for awhile and helped you work on things being better for you. That last would be someone like a coach, or a domestic abuse counselor. Your fear, which comes across very strong in what you wrote, suggests to me that you know you have reason to fear for yourself. Go get some offline help, someone to help you work on this. You're going to ahve to do some rebuilding confidence in yourself on some things before you'll know what is good for you to do regarding your marital relation.

You're in my prayers, truly..

Physical Pain is Nothing

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 10/04/2016 - 15:11

compared to emotional pain and the insidious effects from emotional abuse. I will never justify hitting people as being a good thing...but as I've mentioned before....getting hit...can be next to nothing depending on the circumstances? Physical pain is over as soon as it's over....emotional pain can stay with you a life time and has no real expiration date to speak of?

Which also why I think......my T said to me (and I believe him without question )....there is no expiration date..on apologies either. These two seem to walk hand in hand?

I am not going to define

Submitted by vabeachgal on Tue, 10/04/2016 - 16:02

I am not going to define "normal" because I don't consider my marriage to be normal.

Q1: No, there is no physical violence in the marriage. I have slammed kitchen cabinet doors. My husband once punched a hole in the wall because I was nagging about housework and the division of chores and he was "doing everything he could" and apparently could not process anything more. We both walked away. Based on my family background, physical violence is a deal breaker for me. I've watched my sister go through pure hell. It's a testament to her strength of character that both of her kids are more or less okay but they shouldn't have been subjected to everything. We have both yelled. We both refrain from name calling. Whether or not physical violence is a deal breaker for you is entirely your choice. Are you concerned if the frequency and severity of the abuse will escalate?

Q2: Physical violence is not worse than other things. Emotional and verbal abuse has lasting impact and is very destructive. Oftentimes, emotional abuse comes before physical violence. The threat of physical violence makes emotional abuse very effective as a deterrent. I can't answer for you, but is the threat of physical violence as emotionally draining for you as when it actually happens? It changes your behavior, certainly.

In my limited self-education, I don't see anything that points to physical violence as an indicator of ADHD. As our recent poster, Saira stated, 70-80% of people with ADHD have a second co morbid condition, usually depression or anxiety. 50% have an additional, third condition. You may never know the actual components of your husband's cocktail. However, I urge you to seek help somewhere. You could use a sounding board as you work through this. The answers are unlikely to come overnight. You will need to rebuild your strength and confidence. You didn't mention if you work outside the home. Are there employer benefits you could use?

I guess I would ask this - you say that the abuse is a small percentage of your marriage but the threat of triggering it is a constant in your life. Do you think that is almost the same as constant abuse? Can you continue to live like that?

Normal

Submitted by DependentOrigination on Wed, 10/05/2016 - 02:21

I also do not have a "normal" marriage but I did grow up in a relatively normal household. My parents stayed together for 40+ years. They had their share of arguments and almost separated at one point, but I would feel that over all they had a pretty classic marriage and relationship.

Q1. There is no hitting in my marriage. No hitting in my parents marriage. I did throw a glass of water at my husband once. He was in prime ADD mode and I was short on sleep. He invited my grandson over for the weekend (two years old) and I was exhausted and not informed. I do best with preparation. Not the greatest spouse for someone with ADD. Anyhow, it was bedtime, and we were fighting (This was before I knew he had ADD and I took all of his behaviours personally). I told him to sleep on the couch. He refused. So I slept on the couch. And he was probably frustrated and upset and wandered down once to get a glass of water. Then ten minutes later he was in the bathroom trimming his nails. And then ten minutes later he was in the bathroom, to use the bathroom. By that point it was 1am and I was well past the point of exhaustion and I lost it. Screaming, yelling, and throwing water at him from the cup he had come down to fill. He tried to leave, and I stood in front of the door, not putting my hands on him, but just moving my body so he couldn't leave. I had calmed down at that point and was desperately afraid of him leaving.

I have gotten over that fear of him leaving. And I will never let myself get that unhealthy again. I give myself plenty of time, space, rest, and fill my mind and my time with other things. That is as physically violent as our relationship has ever been.

Q2. Maybe physical violence isn't any worse than other forms of violence, it is just that there is a risk of death that comes with it.

I am sorry your self confidence has been destroyed. I am sorry that you have been hurt, controlled, and humiliated. You deserve better. There is better. In none of my past relationships, was I subject to abuse. There were problems, but they were less painful, less volatile, less deep. My one boyfriend stopped working and I supported him for awhile before moving on. The other wasn't emotionally available and I moved on. I would have been better staying with him, than my current husband, but back then, I was looking to buy the farm, and he was not the farm I wanted to buy.

I agree with what some of the others have had to say. Find someone in the real world that you can confide in. A counsellor, a friend, a relative. You don't have to chose divorce, but it might be helpful to gain some space and some time for yourself. I found it really helpful for me.

I wish you the best of luck. Take care of yourself. Love yourself. You are worth loving. Keep reaching out. This has been a fascinating topic and there are some nice examples here of non judgmental awareness. And some judgmental as well, lol!

Reply to J

Submitted by Karinda on Tue, 10/04/2016 - 16:22

Only a man could write something like that! You don't know what it's like to fear for your life

when living with a violent husband. Being physically stronger is an advantage you don't seem to understand the importance of. Do you know how many women who are killed in domestic violence?!

Yes...I Do Know

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 10/04/2016 - 20:00

This is what I know...

On average, nearly 20 people per minute are physically abused by an intimate partner in the United States. During one year, this equates to more than 10 million women and men.1

1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men have been victims of [some form of] physical violence by an intimate partner within their lifetime.1

1 in 5 women and 1 in 7 men have been victims of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime.1

1 in 7 women and 1 in 18 men have been stalked by an intimate partner during their lifetime to the point in which they felt very fearful or believed that they or someone close to them would be harmed or killed.1

On a typical day, there are more than 20,000 phone calls placed to domestic violence hotlines nationwide.9

The presence of a gun in a domestic violence situation increases the risk of homicide by 500%.10

Intimate partner violence accounts for 15% of all violent crime.2

Women between the ages of 18-24 are most commonly abused by an intimate partner.2

19% of domestic violence involves a weapon.2

Domestic victimization is correlated with a higher rate of depression and suicidal behavior.2

Only 34% of people who are injured by intimate partners receive medical care for their injuries.2

“Between 1989 and 1998, arrests of girls increased 50.3 percent, compared to only 16.5 percent for boys, according to the FBI’s 1999 report, Crime in the United States 1998. During that same period, arrests of girls for serious violent offenses increased by 64.3 percent and arrests of girls for ‘other assaults’ increased an astonishing 125.4 percent. In 1999, the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention reported that the female violent crime rate for 1997 was 103 percent above the 1981 rate, compared to a 27 percent increase for males, prompting the statement that increasing juvenile female arrests and the involvement of girls in at-risk and delinquent behavior has been a pervasive trend across the United States.”

I also know...that you have no idea what you are talking about. I know exactly what YOU are saying....and I know exactly WHY YOU are saying it. But I find your comment offensive and ignorant...and you know nothing about the fear of death and being overpowered by a GIANT...who corners you and then beats the crap out of you for talking back and being out of line. A 220 lbs 6'0" man .....with a 30 lbs 4 1/2 ft tall child. That would be me?

You don't have any concept of what THIS is like...so you have no business telling me anything about physical pain and violence at the hand of someone who is bigger or stronger than you......DO YOU? I'll lay money on it.....you've NEVER experienced that in your entire life because that would mean.....( a man spouse in comparison ) would be over 7 feet tall and weigh in at 400 lbs.

And no matter who or where you are...as an adult woman....you can walk out that door and never come back or call the cops if you like.....you always have options.

A child....has no where to run...and no where to hide ..and can't call anyone to come help them...and they HAVE to stay and take it.

I call Bullshit on your comment and I call Bullshit on what you said. YOU have no idea...what you are talking about because you've NEVER had that experience....I can almost guarantee it. The facts and figures...don't lie. The rise in domestic violence with women being the perpetrators is on the increase ...and the majority of deaths involved are caused by hand guns anyway. You don't have to strong or big....to pull a trigger on a gun. All you need is the will..and apparently...there are plenty of women willing to do it right along side men and more than ever before in history and it's on the rise.

The fact is....like 60% or al calls and claims made by women against men are bogus and are done to get leverage over men in divorce court for money. As I recall from memory when I was dealing with this exact thing and the Police were the ones who told me these figures.....less than 2% (maybe less than that ) out all calls made....are actually fatal and that includes men in that figure....the other 40% that are legitmate...are listed in the figures above. And the over whelming figure that I remember...is that out of the 60% of bogus false claims for profit.....over 90% of those were made by women not men. So as it appears....the number of women who lie for profit to get the advantage over men by making these claims...is what you might hear but not proven to be valid.

"Only a man could write something like that!" Really? I call Bullshit here, on you and what you said ......because you are dead wrong my dear.....dead wrong. You have no idea and that's your problem....but fortunately for me...it's not mine.

I am not talking about child

Submitted by Karinda on Wed, 10/05/2016 - 01:21

I am not talking about child abuse. I am not talking about using guns since I live in a country where only hunters and criminals have access to guns.

But I do know A LOT about men's violence against women. Women hitting men is of course unacceptable but much less common. And seldom physically dangerous.

Bad Rap.......Quilty By Association Karinda

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 10/05/2016 - 09:00

I had a negative reaction to what you said for a number of reasons...but mainly from the comment where you said "You don't know what it's like to fear for your life........when living with a violent husband."

As I read this....in context to my ordeal that I detailed pretty elaborately where criminals of the most offensive kind....set out with the intention to deceive and steal from me (con artists) and then with the help they enlisted from others in their circle who all stood to benefit from the spoils of their crimes.....began to systematically terrorize (or attempted) to terrorize me and my family....with the intention of instilling fear through intimidation upon me and my family....in order to ( attempt ) to leverage me into conceding more than just taking money and things from me but in an effort to frame me and "ruin my life".....with fore thought and extreme prejudice.

My comment about "physical pain is nothing"...compared to the emotional pain that can last a lifetime....was both....speaking from my own personal experience as a child which is not only relevant.....it was in part.....what taught me this lesson.... along with the results of that expereince which is mine and mine alone. The results...is what I'm speaking and is not only relevant to this topic of "abuse"....but more over...the long terms effect of this and the reason why these things can manifest themselves later into the same behaviors ( now ).....as the same adults who were abused.....become the abusers themselves and justify anything they do.....from that same abuse they received as a child as a means to say "I'm entitled"...and therefore....."self righteous" with an air of indignation"...as if to say....."I had it worse than you...so you don't know what this is like and since you don't know....I'm going to teach you a lesson that you will never forget". You could also say...."I'll show YOU a thing or two"......"I'll learn you!!!! You'll see....."...and proceed to re-enact and transfer the rage they feel from that violation they felt (back then as a child) when they were physically violated.

Everything that I just said.....I am not only paraphrasing directly from what I learned from my therapist...but from the police, the Federal Marshall and a private detective that I actually knew personally who was actually the one who broke open the "WHY" question for me which was the piece of the puzzle from that series of events, which took me nearly a year out of my life...in stopping these "women" from doing what they were doing to me. I can sum this up pretty quickly...so you can see the context that I was speaking from. I forgot from the past in our exchange...that you said you are from another country (Scandinavia ?) ...and have mentioned that finding the proper words in English was difficult for you when you last commented. I apologize for neglecting to remember this when reading more "literally" the point that I felt you were trying to make with me?

Backing up for a moment...I want to make sure I am hearing you correctly...and that you are not reading into anything that I have said here in the same vane...and not talking what I said....out of context to the story I detailed that has everything to do with this topic which not about "men" and "women".....but of "cowards" and "predictors"....and "weak minded" individuals....who "prey on the weak" and take out their own personal frustrations and their own personal problems out on others as a means to compensate for their own dysfunction, unresolved hatred and internal weakness's.

I want to make it clear how I feel here so there is no confusion in what I personally believe is true...based on the fact of evidence I have surrounding this topic....along with my own personal experience and yes.....living or growing up in an environment of fear of your life and fear of physical retaliation in the form of physical violence as a means to control another human being for you own gain....has everything to do with this and making a strong stand in what I believe....that this is not a GENDER issue and WOMEN....can be equally quilty here.... and equally damaging even if not through physical strength. ABSOLUTELY....NO DIFFERENCE WHAT SO EVER. "0"...AS IN .......NONE.

The message that was delivered to me by more than one source as both a threat and an attempt to instill fear in me....worked at first...until I understood the motives behind what these women were doing and why they were doing it? Three different sources all reported the same thing and the message was clear....."I'm going to ruin your life". Quote....unquote. This isn't about "hitting someone" and going "ouch" that smarts. This is about systematically terrorizing by "personal violation" of another persons inherent God given right to be free from such things. Every man, woman and child on this planet....deserves a modicum of personal privacy and integrity...not to be violated and abused by others for that persons own personal gain through any means of method you can choose including physical violence. To be clear and to reiterate what I am talking about......I'm talking about "predators" who are purposefully and with for sight ahead of time....looking for those that appear weaker than they are...or by creating a system of gaining power over another human being...for their own personal gain at that persons expense.

Having had to disseminate this for myself due to experiencing this kind of violence at the hand of that 220lbs man who was my own father....I feel I can speak with some authority here and tell you my personal feelings about this and share what I have learned. You've made some statements here that I feel are not only minimizing this in respect to "men"...but possibly from the sound of it....based only on your limited experience and more on opinion not experience if I hear you correctly? In my mind....experience trumps.....personal opinion based on no experience at all and just what you feel is "right" for you based on yourself. I can respect your feelings...but can you respect my experience and defer to it and hear what I have to say?

In light of what you just said as an example here "Women hitting men is of course unacceptable but much less common." The statistical evidence that I provided does not support your claim here...and neither does my experience and the experience that I have both witnessed and have heard by other men. And your accusation that I neither understand the importance....not know what it is like to live in an environment where you fear for you life is neither true or accurate for me personally as you accused me of....which is why I reacting so negatively and took accepting to what you said. You are entitled to your feelings here and I will not refute them here with you now....but it is dangerous and presumptuous to assume what you did...which states this in a way that says...."No you don't. You don't know. You don't understand"...as in a direct statement said with so much surety? I will not take your presumption of me personally since I was not being presumptuous here until I reacted to you..and that was all on you for making these false claims about me...and about me when I reacted to you. I made my apology for neglecting to remember what you had said to me earlier in that I simply forgot who you were for the moment until you reminded me in the comment you made about where you live in another country so I hope you can forgive me for that which was from my own assumption without remembering? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here...so I can move away from this gender condition you threw in here...and move this back on line to what I was actually saying in context to this thread.

In context to my father or the perp...when I was a child ( perp...as in "predator"...."terrorist"...or any other synonym you prefer? ) As I see him in this one light but have long since forgiving him for his offenses.....mainly what I forgive him for...is being "weak of character" and "weak minded" and "cowardly". "Weakness"...is the key word here...as in:

"Weakling: a person who is physically......... or............ morally weak."

You said... "Being physically stronger is an advantage you don't seem to understand the importance of." I will respond to your accusation and assertion and put this into context. My experience being beaten is not only relevant and related directly to this...I will quote my therapist once again to better serve to illustrate what I'm saying...." The abused....takes a piece of the abuser along with them"

What I'm talking about specifically....is being a victim. A victim of anything.....takes a piece of the abuser along with them...and then, which goes contrary to what you might believe......re-enacts these offenses later in life which will transfer and manifest itself into becoming the same abuser that did this thing to you. You may or may not...choose to believe this....but it is well documented and I have found this to be true...not only searching deeply inside myself for this very thing...but also witnessing and experiencing it in context to others who have done this (TO ME) in the form of abuse. My wife currently...is struggling with this and has not come to terms with this so I am very familiar with the abused....becoming the abuser without any knowledge of this or thinking of themselves this way. My wife is in denial of her own abusive behavior...because of the same victim mentality...that brought her to this denial itself. There is no crime...in being a victim of course. The crime and the offense....is using victim mentality...to serve in keeping you a victim and never moving past the trauma and never realizing that you yourself...have now become the abuser from your own past trauma and experience. It is why.....you may not be talking about "child abuse"....but I'm making a direct connection to these abusive men....directly to their abusive childhoods.

And not only am I making a claim for abusive men becoming this way due to this...but my assertion that abusive women become this way for the exact same reason...and will use any means available...to deny their own culpability. And the most common means to do this....is to take on a submissive stance or one from their own inherent weakness as in the statement that you made (again)

"Being physically stronger is an advantage you don't seem to understand the importance of. Do you know how many women who are killed in domestic violence?!" In a very emphatic way....you are making an assumption and a huge leap from...."physically stronger....to killing women" as if to say......"and therefore..........." Which there is NO therefore here and this to me signals a huge red flag for me and a trigger from my own experience that says......"you don't understand".

Going further....you response that "I'm not talking about guns" from my response that most people are killed by guns or weapons and most people in general are not 'beaten to death" with another persons fists even though...it is more probable the stonger you are physically...but as I'm refuting you now......this is not the issue and this is not the reason for it. Propensity and ability....is not a smoking gun here and this is what I hear within your assertion. If that were the case...then we'd be living in the dark ages and this is not the case. "Barbarian-ism"....can no longer be used as a cause or reason here,.....the "gangsters' of old who wore shining suits of armor and or wore animal skins with sharpened sticks is not what we're talking about here? Barbarianism in the 3 world perhaps...but we aren't in the 3 world here unless I'm making the wrong assumption about where you live? ( recalling Rwanda or Darfur as a case for this which this is not?)

What I'm talking about...is the effect of abuse in any form...and how that translates into becoming an abusive person later on down the road and the step this takes in becoming this way. Starting as the victim...and then becoming the abuser or persecutor and how a person gets this way.

And how a person gets this way....has everything to do with personal integrity and strength of character. The "Right Stuff" in other words. Either you got it...or you don't. And those who don't got it.....remain a Victim and a "weakling". Not in terms of physical strength now...but in terms of being a "moral weakling" and a "weakling of character" and which goes hand in hand with a lack of courage.and being a coward.

A man can be this way. And so can a woman. Both....are equally despicable....both are equally reprehensible...and both are equally guilty and physical strength (along with their preferred weapon of choice"...has absolutely nothing to do with being a "morally bankrupt weakling and a coward" in that sense. I'm not talking about a one time or two time break down or blip on the radar screen here. I'm talking about a person who has not been able to make the jump from victim and moving past this...to remaining this way in a chronic "state of mind" as in....."victim mentality" which is the direct cause for this travesty and weakness of character.

And for a personage of this "Ilk"....gender...has absolutely "NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS". Being physically stronger is not the cause for this....the cause is what i said....whether you believe it or not? In fact....as I see this or hear it from women as an excuse....what I hear or feel in respect to this is "envy" more than anything else. "Penis Envy" if you want to site Frued's theory on this which does make some valid assertion though I'm not fully convinced of his theory myself but perhaps....in part but very incomplete? Please don't take "Penis Envy" from a literal translation if you are not in understanding of what this phenomena or relationship is. Look it up if you don't know but please don't make reference to the "name" Freud gave it and apply that to me or what I'm trying to say here. It's not really relevant but it is what it feels like to me only?

This is about power...and lack of power and the ways in which people compensate for their own "weakness". The statistic of rising violence in women....only shows to me a rise in women becoming more empowered...and along with it....rises up...the miscreants of society which in the case of women becoming more empowered....so do they. The more "empowered" miscreants and weaklings there are out there...the more predatory offenses there will be due to weakness of mind and spirit...and nothing else. Using the past abuse as an "excuse"...or physical weakness as an excuse.....is "cowardice" and lacking in courage ie: "a Bully" IMHO

Quickly....I can include what I learned about these "weak minded"..."weaklings"...and "despicable cowards" who did what they did to me just to give you an example.

Unlike me....instead of being beaten at the hands of their fathers.....these two women shared the same history as children and that came in the form of sexual abuse at the hands of their own fathers. Abuse is abuse.....one is not better or worse than the other? Both experiences are equally violating and both experiences are using a weaker person to take out their own personal dysfunction on?

But the net effect if this...and what a person does with it...has everything to do with this and this is where character comes into play. In light of the entire story I got about this one woman who was diagnosed Borderline by my T who actually met with her and talked to her....she learned and she told me once in a starteling revelation....that when she was sexually molested by her father...it dawned on her at that very early age...that she had something over on him..and now could use that to her advantage to get what she wanted from him. I had a very long couple of interviews with her brother who was very helpful in filling in the blanks for me and was sorry to here that I had become just another victim in the wake of this. The reason why he was so willing to come forward and be so up front about this with me...was because she had turned on him in the same way...and had turned on her own mother in the same way...that drove him, her own mother...and now me into bankruptcy which ultimately led to her mother...who had been a dry alcoholic for 17 years...to drink herself to death over this and the betrayal and heart ache she suffered from it.

He was more than just willing to help....hd applauded me because no one had ever challenged her or made her pay for her exploitive disregard for her own mother..and then him her own brother. I remember saying...."Wow! I guess that lets me know where I stand here doesn't it?" And has he continued with his story....this woman as a sexually molested child....who now realized the power she had over here own father...used that against him to get of all things as a little girl....."a pony:" for real! As he brother described it....'she got anything she wanted or ever asked for from our father....and "we" (his brother and himself ) basically got the shit. He was very resentful of this...but not now so much in terms of what happened to him at her hand as an adult. (child abuse...is extremely relevant here ). So the life pattern for this Borderline individual...became one of exploitation....and the power of "bearing false witness"...and within that power...the power of "accusation". And she fined tuned her craft which also became a way to vent her rage onto others and :"ruin there lives". She not only took pleasure in seeing the suffering of others at her own hand....but profited from it and made a living this way....instead of getting a job and working hard and "stealing" instead. She was "weak" and "worthless" IMHO....and the epitome of evil who was bent on destruction. She became a walking "blight" on humanity and a "travesty" as a human being because of it. Absolute power corrupts absolutely here and this is exactly the case in point I wanted to make. This is NOT a male tendency or female tendency or exclusive to either gender which is why I am so adamant...in refuting you because of my experience with this.

For an woman to side with this horrible wretch of a human being because they can relate or possibly understand this this from your perspective as a woman... you.would also have to concede that I would be in my right...to beat anyone who stood in my way of what I wanted or I just didn't like or who might offend me...at will? If you can't do that here for me or for a man...then you can't call the kettle black and use physical strength weakness as an excuse for a woman doing exactly the same thing but picking a different weapon of choice?

And the one group or segment of the population that you don't need to convince of the destructive power that an indivual like this can wield? Talk to a police officer....they see it every day. Along with the private detective I spoke to.....along with the undercover federal Marshal who came to my rescue who gave this this advise along with a stern warning......"

"If you think for a moment...or get the feeling like you are in danger in respect to being inside your own home at night especially because these people are like cock roaches and like to work in the dark at night." In his jaded point of view from dealing with these individuals and seeing the killings that they had committed over a twenty year period of undercover work.....as he called them and referred to them as "Pieces of Shit"...he said.." have your gun loaded and ready with the safety off...and if you see anyone in your house that you don't expect.....empty the entire clip of you gun straight into them at point blank range. There is only one story here..and it's your story. If they stagger and fall dead outside....drag them back inside the house and make sure their entire body is inside the thresh hold of the door if you have to...and don't even second guess. Shoot first...because there is only one reason they are there and it's not for your benefit. You will be exonerated if it's found to be these individuals and you've filed your reports ahead of time"

I'm guessing they don't have the same laws in your country...but here in the US....the advise he gave and reason he gave it...was not him having an attitude problem. The chances are high in the case of a Borderline/Antisocial Personality Disorder individual who is delusional at best and is bent on destruction...since your life is in danger and they won't bat an eye if it serves them to off you if that is what they've decided to do. These are extreme individuals who are "highly disturbed"...but at the core...they are victims with victim mentality as there means of operating in the world.

So when your talking about "child abuse" as you say not related.....Okay....let that go for a moment. You said...."You don't know what it's like to fear for your life when living with a violent husband."

You're right...I don't know what it's like to be living with a violent husband....but I do know what it is like to live with a woman who is bent of destruction for personal gain who will stop at nothing to get what she wants and employs terror and fear and false allegation as her weapon of choice to steal and make her way through life by exploiting others including her own mother and has the propesity and appetite for destruction to the point of self sabotaging to a level that says...."and you're going with me." A highly manipulative, con artist who is not unlike the Glen Close character in fatal attraction who has a propensity to do murder to get what they want?

So when you have an veteran US Marshal take you by the hand and tell you to have a gun next to you at night be ready to use it (emptying the entire gun clip into them at point blank range) you want to talk about fear living in your own home and that as you said it...."You don't know?"

Oh yes....I do know....and I also know where it comes from and why? As the Federal Marshal so lovingly referred to them as "Pieces of Shit."

I have said my piece

Submitted by Karinda on Wed, 10/05/2016 - 12:16

I have said my piece concerning men beating women, sometimes beating them to death.

I am so sorry to hear about you being abused as a child.

No excuse for abuse....

Submitted by AdeleS6845 on Wed, 10/05/2016 - 07:09

PERIOD.

I used to make excuses for my ex-husband's behavior, in my mind. "He is under a lot of pressure at work." "If I were a better wife, better Mom, better housekeeper, better with money, better in bed.....he would treat me better." He was funny, charming and charismatic in public, in front of his family, and mine. He was not the same person in private. He didn't have ADHD. It was over ten years and two children later when I left.

If someone is abusive, don't blame it on ADD/HD. The man I've been dating for over a year has ADHD, and he is not abusive. In fact, he is the opposite,

Abuse is abuse, and cannot be excused.

Adele, beautifully written

Submitted by dedelight4 on Wed, 10/05/2016 - 08:40

Adele, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. So glad you wrote this. I'm so sorry you and your children had to endure this. Abuse is cruel, and the people who DO it can be seductive and manipulative, and so many abusers (often times men) can be so convincing that they convince the wife that SHE'S the one who's to blame for all "their anger and troubles". When it's THEM, and they never learned better ways in how to effectively DEAL with the issues of life, so they turn to anger and intimidation to get their families to fear them. How sad for all involved,

Glad you have someone new who appreciates you and is very different. My best to you and your family.

Dede

Dede.......Suductive

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 10/05/2016 - 11:09

You are so right...it is cruel and manipulative but you mentioned seductive and this was the one thing that I did not say about my experience with a woman who uses this in this way. I'm actually curious in this coming from you and your experience and you mentioned "awaking this in you" with no intention to follow through? It was very interesting how this worked for me in that I was right where you are now...and I was seduced and intoxicated by this woman when I first met her in all regards. She was "perfect" in every way. Too perfect....and that was a red flag I didn't see or was able to see in that she was extremely attractive...to the point of her using that as a weapon.

I'm no movie star in the looks department...but I'm not unattractive either. I have had my fair share of being attracted to women and they being attracted enough towards me that my looks are not an insecurity problem. And I'm not just bowled over with physcial attraction in women mainly or probably because of my own mother and sisters who I feel ( my mother especially ) was almost like movie star material she was that attractive. So it is what you get use to and me being the "least attractive of the bunch" in my own right in comparison since my sisters and especially my oldest....shall we say....developed early ( big boobs ) which gained her a lot of attention when she was pretty young from boys her age. She had no problem with finding guys who wanted to date her and had to do more fighting off than attracting even though she has more a "librarian" personality! lol

I guess all this is just saying.....you get use to "looks" and you don't get too hung up on outward beauty if you are around it enough I guess? I see this common a lot of times with guys when they are young where they go "I don't know how I did it...but I'll never get that again in my lifetime!!" which leads to making a lot of dumb mistakes and dumb decisions due to "looks" only?

So in that much.....even my ex wife was as I thought....very pretty and attractive so that was not the lure with this woman even though she looked just like Cameron Diaz to me or very similar in appearance. To the point...that she might have been the most attractive woman I had ever met but was more enamored in the fact that she was interested in me? Kind of like icing on the cake but still going....."but why?" Thinking....normally in my experience.....women who are extremely attractive tend to not seek me as their first choice since they are almost...."too good looking?" if you get my meaning? As it turned out....I was just a "mark" for her but being attractive was part of the power she had and seducing was the means to "hook you".

If you want to see a very disturbingly "real" feeling movie along these lines just to see what I'm talking about look up "The Councilor".... and one where ironically .....Cameron Diaz actually plays this fem fatale character who Ridley Scott the producer....captures "the evil" so well.....when I watched this movie it was difficult for me to get past since it stayed with me for days afterwards because Cameron Diaz's character was so much like this woman I met in so many ways even in how she looked? The end of the movie was what was so chilling for me...since Diaz's character so openly and unashamedly admits taking such pleasure in being kind of like a Black Widow and enjoyed seeing her victims die and took that as her challenge and then the final pay off which was so rewarding for her. In almost every respect of this movie down to the last detail of her behavior in the movie....it was what i experienced and what I saw and how I felt about it right down to the moment when her boyfriend in the movie (Javiar Barden ) turns and says " she scares me....";....but had no way of knowing exactly why? It was just a feeling he had...and in the end...you found out why he should have been afraid. It chilled me to my bones to watch such an accurate portrayal the mind set and the behavior of the same type of woman that unfortunately...seduced me at first...and then scared the living day lights out of me after it was already too late?

It's not as easy to see what seduction means in terms of a man since "attraction" is or can be different going the other way with a "woman".

The key component and cruel part of this as I found was....this woman could be anything I wanted her to be and that exactly what she did but only until I was hooked. She was perfect.....too perfect....that's the problem. When it's too perfect like that.....some things wrong because no one is that perfect and if they are....it's fake. Real people....are mostly pretty flawed and those usually stand out early...if they aren't trying to hide it?

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