I don't even know where to start. I don't want to disparage my wife, but I have paid over 1/2 the retainer to my attorney and plan on paying the rest by the end of the month so I thought I would at least put the information out there because this all just seems like a bad dream. My wife and I have been married for three years, she has two children (6 and 7) from a previous marriage. I feel like I have three children and just myself in the marriage. Like I said, I have no idea where to start. My wife refuses to be evaluated either for depression, ADHD, or any other medically valid reason why she exhibits the behavior she does. For example, she cannot make a decision without a great deal of input from me, she calls me (until I was recently reprimanded for her calling too much) at work at least 15 times a day for advice on basic decisions, recently we spent over two hours discussing plans for a birthday party for a six year old. We will arrive at a decision and she will change her mind at the last minute, leaving me completely dumbfounded as I plan for one thing and we end up doing another. Up until I informed her I was filing for divorce, we had little to no sex life at all, twice a month was a good month, strangely since I informed her I was filing that has changed to she seems to not be able to get enough (she says she is so sorry for denying it in the past). She is a stay at home mom yet until I informed her I was filing housework was hit or miss, but most of the time a miss, I would often remark to her that I was more impressed by the amount of work she "didn't" get done. I worked part time and full time, and am in the Army Reserves, and I would come home to barely walk through the living room because of the mess and do the piled up dishes in the sink. She says she gets distracted and she watches videos of old TV shows a lot on her phone, so on. Maybe these things seem minor but my confusion lies here, she can concentrate when it comes to school activities, volunteering for EVERY children's event at school, organizing and planning them, she will spend hours. But she says she is always overwhelmed when it comes to housework, the only thing that engages her is me becoming upset, (I am not a person to yell, but I do get frustrated about it), or recently when I informed her I was filing for divorce. This may seem minor and some may ask "why is he filing for divorce just because she doesn't clean the house", I wish it were that simple. It pervades every part of our life, work, home, church, school, and family relationships. Simple things that seem like every day events for most of us become monumental tasks that she needs guidance through. She goes to bed about 8:30 pm and gets up just in time to get the kids to school, around 7:30 am, which causes chaos because they aren't able to get ready in time and she is constantly running late. Many times I have over 10 calls at work in the morning between 7 am and 8:45 to advise her how to handle a situation with the kids, so on. I have detailed discussions with her about either an upcoming event or even just a small event later that day and she literally will act as if we never talked an hour later, and forget remembering a detail. My confusion is, if it concerns her children she knows down to the 25th decimal point of PI. She has been evaluated for a sleep disorder, lupus, any kind of vitamin deficiency, and nothing has been positive. The chiropractor believes that she may have Adrenal Stress Syndrome, he recommends two chiropractic appointments a month, I researched it and it isn't even medically recognized, so I told her that makes no sense to spend all that money on something there is no real diagnosis for. She finally agreed to be evaluated for the possibility of Adult ADHD but hasn't followed through on an appointment, she wants me to schedule one for her! I am still proceeding with the divorce, but does this sound familiar to anyone. I believe it is ADHD but since she won't get evaluated, I cannot be sure. It's been a nightmare during the time we have had together and I just can't carry three people through life anymore when one of them is making adult decisions without the ability to contribute to the marriage.
My struggle is how can she focus on her kids, but have complete chaos everywhere else? I don't understand that.
She can focus on her kids
Submitted by smilingagain on
She can focus on her kids because she is interested in them. If you think it's adhd and you truly loved for your wife, before divorcing her, maybe you should read up on adhd. It sounds like a good fit for what you've described and can be helped tremendously with treatment.
Why are you having a bunch of sex with your wife if you are planning to divorce her still? That's a little confusing for her, don't you think?
My mistake
Submitted by bd2595 (not verified) on
I need to correct what I said earlier, I am not having sex with her, "I" told her that would be confusing and something to regret later. She is continually trying to convince me to be intimate, when before it was miraculous if it happened twice a month.
I won't get into a discussion whether I love my wife or not as mentioned. I have gone through many months of considering this decision, three marriage conference weekends, (one costing over $2000), three different marriage counselors, and an eight week marriage class. I have followed through on the things I said I would do from the seminars and classes. I have worked as many as two part time jobs, while also working full time because she wanted to be a stay at home mom and have given in many other ways as well. I always try to know someone's situation before I make suggestions, let alone making accusations of whether they love someone or not. Even as a Christian man, there is a point where we decide not to be a doormat anymore.
I want to see what treatment brings, but she isn't serious about it. I call it a "two chapter person" you get the book and read the first two chapter describing the problem and never finish it to get to possible solutions. Reading the first two chapters can absolve you of responsibility because now you have a reason for your action. Taking action to correct it is hard work.
I already see the signs of ADHD in her daughter, but both she and her ex-husband deny anything is wrong. She is an absolute sweetheart but cannot focus on anything for more than a very short time. She has hurt herself walking into things because she got distracted and was not watching where she was going. Both children are from her former marriage.
Right now I am struggling to even stay in the marriage, I have read "Driven to Distraction" already. I cannot force anyone to follow through and seek help, even if it isn't ADHD there is something that can be improved on, as there are things in my own life I can improve on. I already have taken so much off her plate I can't think of anything to take but the actual plate, all she essentially takes care of now is her children, we had animals but I found homes for them because I can't be home to care for them and sadly one died because of negligence. There comes a point where as an adult it's time to say, "hey, I am responsible for my actions here and I need to make changes". That isn't happening.
Yes, it sounds as though your
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Yes, it sounds as though your wife might have ADHD.
I'm sorry to read about your situation. You will find that it's very common for the "non" spouse or partner to have done a tremendous amount of work to keep the marriage going: realizing there is a problem, trying to find the source of the problem, trying to figure out his or her role in the problem, generating solutions, engaging in deep soul searching.
I've been married for 28 years; we've known about my husband's probable ADHD for approximately 5 years. My husband takes medications and sees a therapist (one in a long string that I encouraged him to see); he regurgitates his feelings to the therapist, but he has not made any committed attempts to deal with his ADHD-related behaviors. It is extremely frustrating. I have filed for a separation so he can have "space" to work on his issues, if he chooses to do so. I can't fix him and I can't force him to do anything he doesn't want to do and I can't make him see that his behaviors are a problem.
The lightbulb has to want to change
Submitted by ShelleyNW on
It does sound like you've done a lot more than many have to try. It is no fun being the only one to make long term effort. Unfortunately if she is unwilling to acknowledge her role in your problems and make the commitment to long term change, it will not happen. Change is hard for those of us with good organization skills and few impulse control problems. I hate to see relationships end because of ADHD but it is not a poor reflection on you if you have done what you can and need to take care of yourself. Being an ADHD spouse can be hard on your health, mental and physical. I do hope that even if you leave that your wife will get the treatment she needs. If she gets into the doctor perhaps she will get real about her daughter's needs too. But as you said, that is ultimately her responsibility.
Let me try this again...
Submitted by smilingagain on
I am not sure that you got my point.
My point was that your wife's behavior sounds like adhd and that her symptoms might be lessened tremendously with treatment. Would you want to stay married if she was better organized, more focused, cleaner and more independent? Because those are possibilities with treatment. Are you unwilling to even give things a chance to improve? You mentioned all the couples therapy you have done as indications that you have tried. But if your wife has had undetected adhd this whole time, those efforts were compromised. Trying to treat marital discord without treating the adhd is like trying to put a bandaid on a gaping wound.
I am not Christian- but I think marriage vows are sacred. In sickness and in health. Your wife is sick... If you have it in you to try one more time, with a little patience and understanding, I think that would be kind and right. Especially when you have been around for half of her kids lives... Since they were 3 and 4.
I think divorce is necessary for lots of people. no one should stay in something unhealthy, abusive, unfulfilling over the long haul... I really don't judge people who choose to leave after exhausting their options. But I'll admit that when children are involved, my heart breaks. I know i only have pieces of the story, but that's my reaction to the pieces I have. You posted on this forum , presumably for opinions, and I am sharing mine. I wish you the best!
And if she doesn't get help?
Submitted by bd2595 (not verified) on
It isn't that I am not willing to give it one more try, I am. The problem is that it will continue to fail if nothing is done to treat the ADHD. I understand that I will need to understand a number of things concerning ADHD and how to adjust my reaction. I have been adjusting the reaction for a few years, removing things that become overwhelming and confusing, taking on more and more, I know it if my decision as to when it is enough. I think we all need to accept responsibility for ourselves and our actions. Maybe she will someday, but I have yet to see it.
You've hit the nail on the
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
You've hit the nail on the head. My husband takes meds and engages in "talk therapy," both of which might make him FEEL better, but he has done nothing to change his maladaptive behaviors, which are the things that have made my marriage intolerable for me. I know that by separating, I will feel better. I hope, for my husband's sake, that he can someday work on making behavioral changes that are positive and permanent, but I've realized that I have no control over or even influence on him. And to the extent I do, my influence seems uniformly negative, so it seems likely that our separation will help him, too (or, at least, not result in things being any worse for him than they already are).
Once I figured out it was
Submitted by lauren07 on
Once I figured out it was adhd and not just laziness and neglect, I saw a lifetime of struggle ahead. I simply don't want that for my life. If I had a different partner who I really thought would give it 100%, things might have been different. I truly don't think mine would have made it worth my effort, so why torture myself? The last thing I want is an adhd and ssri meds rollercoaster for the rest of my life. You don't have to feel bad for not wanting that either. This adhd mess is tricky. It takes so much effort from both sides. I wish mine appeared to be worth the effort. Hopefully he will be someday and can find a more empathetic partner than me. It's hard enough taking care of me and my son. I'm not gonna carry my partner too. That is not the definition of partner. We wrote our own vows and they were broken long ago.
Edited to add: You know, I bet he'll do great now that we are gone. He'll have all the time and space in the world to better himself. Must be nice;) I'll be glad when he's back to share parenting. I think as long as we aren't under the same roof and expecting things from each other, we'll get along. We're getting along now just fine.
I appreciate everyone's comments and still...
Submitted by bd2595 (not verified) on
I feel my best course is to let this go. I hear a lot of responsibility coming my way and next to none being levied toward my wife. I am not hear to say I am any better or worse then anyone else. I do believe that a marriage is about mutual sacrifice and love, it isn't all bad, and it isn't all good, but it should overall be worth it. Right now I am dealing with someone who has a "illness" or is "sick". I hear that and I acknowledge it. I hear it said on this site that treatment will take time and that is can bring about changes and it can be this great marriage. I don't want to be offensive but I have trouble swallowing that. I am currently with someone whose mantra is, the more he will give the more I will take. Now we have a "revelation" because I have taken action and all of the sudden there is a "desire" to change.
I have spent the past three years trying to figure out why when we have discussions it was like talking to the wall. So I sent emails to follow up on discussions, I took nearly every important aspect of our lives on myself to alleviate her being overwhelmed. She is now down to basic functions for the house and much of the time that doesn't get done. So like Lauren07 stated above I essentially see myself raising another child for the rest of my life, problem is, a child grows up, you can teach them things and help them gain independence. For the past three years I haven't even been able to get her to admit anything was wrong, I have been screamed at that I never told her something, just to pull up the email and show where I sent it as a follow up to conversation. I would quietly say to her, there is something going on when you can't remember things, even things that are important and I know we have discussed, let's get this evaluated. It was like setting off a nuclear weapon, she would get so angry I would just walk away. Now, magically she sees the error of her ways? And what does treatment give me? Can anyone help me with that? Do I move from raising a 6 year old to maybe a 12 year old? I am sorry to seem so cynical, but everything I read seems to place a monumental mental and emotional burden on me to adapt and overcome, to carefully plot and plan everything to avoid throwing her into the "overwhelm" category or so on. Add to that based on her age and position she is out there making decisions that affect us both but I get to be responsible for them.
So can someone demonstrate that there is a significant change with treatment, in the person with ADHD, or is it the person without it that has to make the changes?
I could have written your
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I could have written your message (only you express yourself much better than I do!). In fact, what you have written describes my experience and feelings so well that I have been once again by the sadness that has come over me many times in the past five years or so. Being in my marriage has been heart wrenching. I am not a religious person but I am very moral. I have tried to figure out what is wrong, what to do, how to help my husband, how to make myself a better person, all the things people say here and in books and on other websites to do, not to make myself "happy" but because I think that helping my husband and my marriage are the right things to do. Almost all have been for naught.
There are a few things that, taken together, have been like the straws that broke the camel's back. But I'll mention just one now: the huge negative effect that my marriage and my attempts to save it have had on my physical and mental health. Nights spent not sleeping because I was trying to figure out what to do; many moments of anxiety during the day as well; heart, digestive, and neurological problems: all things that are physically painful and, perhaps more important to someone like myself who places top priority on taking care of my family, all things that have made it harder and harder for me to do my job well. And my income is vital to my family because of my husband's not dealing with his dysfunctional behaviors. I realized that to save myself and my family, i had to give up on the marriage. Sad, but true.
Mine was always having
Submitted by lauren07 on
Mine was always having "revelations" to be a better partner. It lasted between a day and a week before he went back to "normal". Once he got diagnosed, he felt less responsible for his actions because, after all, it's a brain disorder that can't be helped. I'm cynical too and my empathy has run out. I believe he has a brain problem, but I don't believe it is my burden to bear for the rest of my life. Like I said, if I truly believed he would take responsibility for his medications and therapy, I would be on board to repair this marriage. But I know he won't. He's spent his entire life being angry at the world and blaming others and I don't have the energy to wait the years it would take for him to change his perceptions and that is IF he can/will try to change his perceptions and stay on meds and therapy. The possibility of wasting more of my youth on him is too great a risk for me to take.
My husband's memory problems drove/drives me straight up the wall. He hears and reads things wrong and makes up his own memories. I'm not dealing with that crapola forever. He always made excuses for his poor memory and inability to get things done. Excuses that made me sound like a jerk for expecting better.
I heard all the responsibility coming my way too, even when it comes to treatment......when it comes to everything! "Oh, you must understand, he has a brain problem and NEEDS you to help/make him get treatment". Nope, sorry. That's what his Mama is for. I'm done being Mama. I agree about mutual sacrifice. I agree that overall it should be worth it. I saw a future of exhaustion for me and decided to get off the crazy train.
And let me tell you.......that constant, horrible feeling of anxiety, of feeling my heart literally beating hard in my neck.....that feeling went away the minute I climbed in that U-haul and drove off;)
Sorry you feel we expect you to do all the work
Submitted by ShelleyNW on
It's just you that we are talking to. We'd give your wife lots of direction too. Probably more. It's basically a cost benefit analysis, does she in her best times provide you enough benefit to offset the cost? To me, it doesn't sound like it. For lots of us the better days restore enough love equity to offset the bad. At least for a while. Treatment has helped my husband quite a bit, but it has taken ten years and we aren't quite to functional yet. The problem with taking more on, like I did, is that it is enabling and they adjust quite well to that. Trick is to find a balance where they are doing their share, but the ADHD friendly share. Which is hard to do. But it is ultimately your wife's responsibility to behave like the adult she is and find ways to do her share. I hate to see another marriage end due to this brain disorder but I completely understand how it can be the best option. Good luck.
That's it. Does the benefit
Submitted by lauren07 on
That's it. Does the benefit outweigh the cost? I think for the most frustrated of us, it doesn't. It sure didn't for me. You give sound advice and gently too lol, but reading that your marriage is still a great deal of one-sided work and sacrifice is disheartening. I hope you have many more years of benefits with very little cost.
I realize
Submitted by bd2595 (not verified) on
that many people with ADHD realize it, acknowledge it, and decide to make a difference. I am not discussing those people here at all. It just seems so difficult to think that someone who would argue me into the ground that they had nothing wrong would all of the sudden acknowledge "something" is wrong only when their world is about to cave in on them. Is that a part of ADHD, not being able to grasp the seriousness of the situation.
I agree with enabling, but in most cases it was less difficult to do the task then try to clean up the mess later, depending on what it was. There is a part of me that wants to give one more chance and see what happens, but there is a larger part that says I will be walked all over as soon as I say I will hold off the divorce.
Totally consistent
Submitted by ShelleyNW on
Hello. It is totally consistent that ADHD folks don't recognize the seriousness until crisis time. They perform well in a crisis, it can keep their attention. Also well known for not reading social clues well. I understand that you don't trust it to all of a sudden work. It won't. Even if she did truly buy in that ADHD is a big part of your relationship problems she will still struggle with what that really means. No one wants to be to blame, especially because their brain is wired differently. ADHD folks typically have a lifetime developed defensiveness that is hard to overcome. So when she's diagnosed the hard part begins. Meds management is complicated. Stimulants, mood levelers, anxiety, etc. can take years. And then she needs to learn about the condition and how it impacts her, then develop new good habits while breaking bad old ones. One at a time. It gets overwhelming. Then she might also resent that you don't love her for who she is, darn it... She will rewrite history to suit her vision of herself, though to be fair this is common for typical brains too. This is hard. It will not go smoothly. She will need to feel that it's safe to try strategies and fail, as long as she tries something else. I have empathy for both you and your wife. You are both in an untenable situation. You can leave, she will still have her brain. But it is her responsibility to mitigate the negatives while exploiting the positives. That is something only she can do. It only took me a decade to figure that out.
Can it change
Submitted by sunlight on
"So can someone demonstrate that there is a significant change with treatment, in the person with ADHD"
I can offer one example. I am non-ADHD female married 12 yrs to ADHD male diagnosed 1 yr ago. I figured out he had ADHD, insisted he get to a psych because ADHD is not a death sentence and of brain disorders it is one of the most treatable (eg it is not a personality disorder, not psychopathy etc). It was an ultimatum. He did it - he was afraid but he did, he did not want to officially hear that his brain was 'broken' though he recognised as a teen that he was 'different'. He takes Adderall, guanfacine, gabapentin and is doing great. Anger is down, ability to hold conversations and get started on projects is way up (still have problems finishing jobs but when things are pointed out he is civil, apologetic, understands and gets to it). He recognizes he has a backlog of stuff to do that has been half-done (or 1% or 99%) for years, regrets the wasted time, wishes he had been diagnosed much earlier. He reads books on ADHD all the time (this is a big change, normally he struggled to concentrate), is happier and in a better mood most of the time (we all have our days, he is the same). He has never had a problem holding down good jobs but until recently hasn't advanced as expected given his experience and qualifications, now he is getting along much better with coworkers, handles office politics constructively, and is being rewarded with acknowledgement of his contributions. He is very happy to take meds for the rest of his life, he knows they work.
I have backed off chasing him to get things done, let him figure things out himself, and he is stepping up. Still has problems initiating conversations on 'difficult' topics but is much more able to sit through conversations without walking out of the room, exploding in rage or slamming all the doors. Arguments do still happen, I have to remember that more aware than he used to be (I forget) . Organizational skills are still an issue but I am always asking and encouraging him to make suggestions on how he can do better himself rather than my setting reminders or doing things for him. Without the meds he would not have appreciated this type of conversation, now is much more receptive.
Until your wife steps up and get diagnosed no-one can know how well she would do, but unfortunately that nature of ADHD is such that she probably doesn't know that and cannot conceive of the world being otherwise. She needs to be able to trust that you and a dr are helping her, not manipulating or changing her. I wonder if many who refuse treatment really have issues with not trusting that the people telling them there is a problem are acting to help.
"she wants me to schedule one
Submitted by sunlight on
"she wants me to schedule one for her"
If she does have ADHD it may be difficult for her to make the appt, it took my H a couple of weeks after I had put my foot down and we had the final (!) big talk - he did it but everyone is different. I suggest that for the sake of your children, if not for her, that you find a psychiatrist specializing in Adult ADHD (specifically Adult) and sit with her as she makes the appointment. It is up to you if you go to the appt (assuming the psych would allow it since you will not be the patient, check it out with the dr).
If you want to learn more about ADHD then try this post for a list of books. Particularly look at "Change your Brain, Change your Life", "Healing ADD", "Driven to/Delivered from Distraction" for how ADHD manifests and some of the options. Encourage her to read the 'distraction' books perhaps as a start (the others may be too much but you know her best).
(Edited, oops forgot the link, here it is:
http://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/help-managing-stress-and-anger#comme... )
You're not sounding crazy, yes ADHD can look like your description. Also look for signs of it in your children - detecting it early really gives children the best chance to avoid following the same path (my husband is very unhappy that his parents never investigated (out of 3 children, it seems he and a sister both have it)).
Does sound like ADHD
Submitted by ShelleyNW on
And the threat of divorce has re engaged her in paying attention to it and you. The books discourage enabling but do say that getting her to the first doctor appt is a valid exception. I made my husbands first appointments and reminded him to go, but since then it's been his responsibility. Meds can help but therapy is impt, and getting the meds mix right can take time too. There is no cure, so she will have to develop strategies to deal with things. Assign her ADHD friendly duties. And she needs to take a lot off her plate. I agree that the kids should be monitored too as the probability is high they will be afflicted too. For you I would suggest reading Is it You, Me or Adult ADD by Gina Pera. Does help you understand how ADHD impacts a relationship. Whether or not your marriage can be saved will depend on both of you making adjustments and letting go of anger and resentment. Best wishes.
Don't feel bad about your
Submitted by lauren07 on
Don't feel bad about your decision to leave. I couldn't take it either and feel 100% better since I left.
Thanks for your reply
Submitted by bd2595 (not verified) on
I read some of your other posts as well. It has been a struggle for me, especially as a Christian, because everyone in my church says, "just stay and keep praying". I believe in prayer but I also believe that God calls us to be responsible as adults too. I am looking to move to California to be near my children if possible.
I just caught your comment
Submitted by lauren07 on
I just caught your comment about neglected animals. Mine insisted on having a specific breed of dog. I found him one and the man had trouble remembering to feed & water it. He also never spent time with it or took it for walks. He didn't fix small problems with it's destructive behavior outside, even when I insisted, so now the underground water system needs replacing at our rental house. I finally found it a new home primarily because it was food aggressive and aloof to my son's small stature. He has the small dog now and I took the other large one with me. I feel the need to remind him through texts to feed & water it. I'd love to leave him alone, but I can't let the dog possibly suffer. I'm sure the house reeks of pee now since he won't get it fixed and doesn't notice nastiness in the house or outside. I'm so glad to be out of that chaos! He's great at work and around friends, but contributed nothing but income to our household.
tough
Submitted by lynninny on
This is tough all around, as one who also left her spouse with largely untreated ADHD. He insisted nothing was wrong with him until the very end. Acknowledged that he had ADHD, but this made him gifted and I didn't love him for whom he was. He came to the table a bit recently, after we had been separated for months, but it was too little too late. I had been begging for years for him to hear me and face this stuff and treat it. I was willing to work on it with him, but the distance he needed to travel was pretty far and I didn't believe he was going to take it seriously and do it. Not to even save our marriage, but to help himself.
Animals are a common theme here. He had a dog when we married and I ended up completely taking care of it out of pity. Spouse didn't even clean up the poop and let it pile in the backyard for months until I found it when the snow melted. I am sorry he has a brain disorder and a hard time. I did stop being mad (I can only respond to what you wrote here, but your comment about being more impressed by what she doesn't get done than what she does get done--if you say things like that to her, it is not helping your relationship and I can see why she may be hurt or defensive. Just saying from experience). And I realized that he is severely disabled by this stuff. I don't feel bad that I stopped being willing to carry him on my back for the rest of my life. The only way I would have changed my mind is if he made treating and managing his ADHD his number one focus, 24/7.
She may be able to help herself. It is great that she pays so much attention to her children and works so hard for them. It sounds like she is initiating intimacy because you told her you wanted it. Yes, those with ADHD may not see how far gone their relationships are until it is at a crisis point. Mine went years and only finally told me he saw things through my eyes when I was ready to sign divorce papers, which sadly, is way too late.
I believe you deserve to ask yourself what will make you happy. My gut told me I would always be unhappy with my spouse, and I let myself off the hook with feeling guilty for leaving him. Life is short and we all deserve to be happy. Best to you.
That is what is SO difficult..
Submitted by bd2595 (not verified) on
I try not to say negative things, but after a while the filter goes off. Right now she can't stay focused to read a book on ADHD, so that is a problem.
Here is what is so difficult. If they had a school party for her children that required her to be up at 5 am and a meeting at 11 pm, and required 20 hours of work a week for three weeks, she would be the GOLD star principal's award recipient. If you ask her to straighten and file a pile of papers in the office, three weeks later they are still there. I hear people say, "well, she is interested in that, so she can focus." So we are dealing with a brain disorder that has a switch, you can turn it off when you want. I have seen her move heaven and earth when it comes to here children, she is very concerned about their health so if they get sick she spends HOURS researching what might be wrong and we go through the whole gamut of catastrophic illnesses that they may have.
Believe me I am NOT perfect and I feel at the same time I have done a lot to try to hang in there, but the denials and the refusal to get help until she sees her world caving in, coupled with the fact she can concentrate when she wants to, makes me feel that she it may be just that we aren't right for each other at all.
Clarification
Submitted by ShelleyNW on
Ok I understand your frustration and why you say the above, but it is not about want. You say she can concentrate when she wants to. Nope. She can concentrate when something is stimulating enough to hold her attention ( hyper focus can be its own problem). She can also follow a set schedule with specific tasks, assuming she's reminded about them when she gets distracted. This is not a want issue, it's a dopamine and neural pathways issue.
That being said, you certainly have no obligation to sacrifice your life to her atypical genes and poor coping skills.
She sounds like a fantastic
Submitted by lauren07 on
She sounds like a fantastic mother, but not a good partner for you. I know that leaving is hard and there is a lot of guilt, but you do deserve to be happy. It's clear that you realize that. Best of luck to you....and to your wife.
Bd2595 You have my permission to be happy
Submitted by jennalemon on
If you both spend your entire marriage coping with the difficult project of surviving together, you are not living. You are just surviving. I regret the years I just coped and survived. If you are the type to feel guilty, like I am, you will feel guilty either way....staying or leaving. By staying and coping for over 35 years, I feel guilty that I did not live my life and give my children a model for a loving, partnered marriage.
Of course you feel resentment and rage. Anyone would. Someone who made promises is now breaking those promises and you feel stuck. Are you looking for permission to leave your wife? It seems, like me, that you have some growing up to do too. We are both in the throws of REACTING to challenges rather than to RESPONDING to challenges. I have spent WAY too much time and energy feeling and fretting but yet paralyzed to ACTION. That is why I am going to a counselor....I am stuck, like you are.
I am looking for both
Submitted by bd2595 (not verified) on
Here is the dilemma. Since I have never been able to get my wife to look at what may be wrong, I made suggestions to have evaluations done. We spent time, money and effort getting tests run for various disorders, I suggested maybe ADHD and depression and she didn't want to get evaluated. I did research on my own and after so many problems I just decided to move forward. My purpose to come to this site was to ask people, hey, if she admits it and gets medication or we come up with a reasonable strategy along with medication, can it get better and we enjoy our marriage? Sadly I haven't heard that. I have heard that if you work hard, adapt to how you say things, modify your expectations, and if she takes medication and does some work on living with it you can find some good times but it will still be a constant battle. That isn't very encouraging. I have already taken the steps to move on, I just didn't want to do so and then find out with daily medication she would be fine. I have found that is not the case, so I have to make the decision to move on.
That's why I came here,
Submitted by lauren07 on
That's why I came here, that's what I heard, and that's why I moved on.
Meds + strategy execution can = happiness
Submitted by ShelleyNW on
Just will not be overnight. Those strategies would include expectation adjustment and curtailing enabling on your part, and rebuilding neural pathways on your wife's part. There are many happy ADHD impacted couples, I know several, but none of them have traditional expectations of what marriage is supposed to be. And from what you've said, I don't think your wife is ready to change. Until she wants to do so for her own sake, she won't make an adequate commitment.
Adapting?
Submitted by sunlight on
"I have heard that if you work hard, adapt to how you say things, modify your expectations, and if she.."
Here is the exception to the rule. I haven't modified my expectations, I just won't (in fact he doesn't know it but I am quietly raising them). Nor do I change how I talk to him. Nope, not happening. I can be very ornery I suppose, he would tell you that, but I can get very determined :)
I did have to be the person who identified ADHD and dragged it into the light, but I have never made an appt for my husband, or gone to an appt with him. In fact I told him I would not do that. Now we are much happier. We're not the same as when we met - instead we are older and wiser but the spark is still there and he is the good-natured soul I always thought he was. If you asked my husband if he was glad he got the diagnosis, he would say yes without a doubt. So he has to take the pills a few times a day - well having the meds makes it easier for him to remember to take the meds so that's a win-win too.
Your mileage may vary of course. I do want to counteract the impression that is sometimes prevalent around here that all is doomed.
My medication makes a
Submitted by smilingagain on
My medication makes a profound difference. It seems a cop out to me that rather than wait to see the effect of medication on your wife, you ask a bunch of strangers whether they can guarantee that if would make a difference and then use the answers ( of a bunch of people who are struggling in their marriages) as justification for leaving.
What are the pros and cons of leaving now versus waiting to see if meds and therapy might make a difference?
if you wait- at the worst, you just get divorced later, admittedly after more frustration. At the best, your wife makes huge strides and you are able to save the marriage and you all don't go through another divorce.
To me iit sounds like you are looking for an out. No doubt, marriage is hard. ALL marriages are hard and take hard work, ADHD or not. There are a lot of ups and downs... But people who can't ride out the downs will never get the ups. You maybe married the wrong person for your particular needs and personality, but I guarantee you that marriage to any other person involves a lot of crap. just different crap. Everybody has to endure long conversations that they aren't particularly interested in. Every parent discusses extra curriculars...
anyway- given your reticence to even give your wife an opportunity to be treated, preferring instead to just assume that it won't work, your marriage doesn't have a shot. That part of it is your fault. Not hers.
last point- it sounds like you are jealous about her focus on her children. Well guess what? Your wife should reserve most of her mental power to take proper care of them and you shouldn't be sulking about that. That is her job until they are older. You knew she had kids when you got married. Maybe you just don't understand that all people in the throes of raising small children are tired, stressed, a little scattered...
This isn't all ADHD... And I guarantee it isn't all your wife either.
It takes two people..
Submitted by Bd2595 on
Consequences and focus
Submitted by sunlight on
Hi bd2595. In your original post you mentioned "She finally agreed to be evaluated for the possibility of Adult ADHD but hasn't followed through on an appointment" - is that still the case or has she backtracked? If the sticking point is making the appt then even if you are determined to go ahead with the divorce then you might just consider making the appt. Consider it a favor you are doing if not for her then for her children's future.
"a brain disorder that has a switch, you can turn it off when you want" and "concentrate when she wants to"
On the assumption that she has ADHD: No - her brain chemistry (not her character, ADHD is not a character flaw) makes her unaware of the consequences of her actions (in this case her focus on the children is alienating you). She cannot help it. She literally is unable to connect the 'now her' with the 'future her'. ADHD people tend to not plan for the future, not anticipate consequences, be unable to understand how others are perceiving their apparent selfishness, cluelessness, and inability to track time and have significant memory issues. Her brain fails to transmit impulses correctly because of a chemical problem, and that is what the meds address. Imagine a car not firing correctly on all cylinders - that is her brain. With the right tuneup for her brain her life might start to turn around (then she has to learn her new world). It happens - meds can and do change lives for the better. Even better, many meds do not take long to work and are also out of the system quickly. So trying them will not permanently change her (she may be afraid of that), can be stopped relatively quickly or even immediately (depending on med). Read some of the stories here where people state they know within a very short time if a med is bringing them clarity and focus. There are fewer of those stories because happier people tend not be seeking help here - they're busy getting on with life. Regardless of whether you've already moved on mentally and psychologically, I do want to get this point down here in case others come along later and are in despair. It is not 'one size fits all'. Now if she tried treatment, no meds worked, no therapy worked, she was a completely untreatable case (I doubt that) and life continued as is, well then you and she would have tried every avenue. Without diagnosis there is always a possibility that a stone was left unturned.
So far as apparent helplessness in making the appt - she is probably afraid - who wants to be told their brain is 'not normal' and that her second marriage is ending because of it. Things must look very bleak to her.
bd2595, if you have a few months
Submitted by glider14 on
All my sympathy for your situation and exit plan. I do, however, agree with sunlight that you might do something for your wife's kids. If you'll be around a few more months, could you help your wife take a stab at her problems for the kids' sakes? If she has ADHD, her brain is impaired: You would indeed have to find the ADHD specialist to do the evaluation, set follow-up appts. with the shrink if she is diagnosed with ADHD, attend a couple of dr. appts with her (this is allowed if she consents), keep the dr. in the loop on how various medications and dosages affect her behavior, get her medication tweaked, and line up a coach or therapist. By the way, competent professionals specializing in ADHD usually insist on this kind of information from spouses and other family members.
The only real way to treat ADHD is to bring about behavioral change - through medication, coaching, and perhaps behavioral therapy such as CBT. To facilitate behavioral change, firm external structures and boundaries are necessary. The structures include reinforcement, positive and negative, of behaviors. The boundaries include consequences. The ADHDer can seem relentlessly forgetful, self-centered (her interests come first), needy/insatiable (e.g., her frequent phone calls to you), and inaccurately perceptive of herself and the world. But the boundaries and structures can help counteract those deficits and even, over time, help develop motivation in ADHDers who lack it. From your descriptions of your wife, she likely would require medication to move forward.
This effort that I've outlined would put most of the burden on you and make you more of a therapist than a spouse. But if you're leaving her anyway, a brief period as her therapist would be a great goodbye gift. She might backslide afterwards, but some of it could stick and it would be a godsend to her kids. If her interest in them were to wane or alter, they would suffer - even more than they would just from losing your stability. If your wife were diagnosed with ADHD and got a good doctor and therapist, those professionals could bridge the gap to therapy for the kids once you're out of the picture. How involved is their father in their lives?
Information that might of use to you are books by Thomas E. Brown, Gina Pera and Russell Barkley. Barkley's Taking Charge of Adult ADHD and his videos (free on youtube) are excellent resources. Also, check out the National Institute of Mental Health website, which has sections on ADHD. Best of luck to you.
I knew it would come up eventually...
Submitted by bd2595 (not verified) on
Thanks for your response. So, here we go. I have completed my coursework for my Master's in Counseling, I am working on completing my practicum and internship and then I will take the national exams. I can already hear everyone's wheels turning as to "why can' t he just help her himself then". First, you can't counsel someone who you are that close to, its nearly impossible to be objective with all the emotions and feelings, and second, they won't listen because your so close to them, the issue may be contentious, so on. My wife, even if I am calm and reasonable and reasonably objective, will not accept it. Her phrase, "Your counselor speak doesn't work on me." Been there, done that, have the t-shirt but I think it's still in the dirty laundry. Also, being a counselor doesn't give us any magical powers, nor does it make us more of an ADHD expert, unless you take a LOT of additional training for ADHD, the testing alone is very involved.
Her ex-husband... I wish he wasn't involved at all. I will state that the psychologist who had three appointments with him and the children described him as a sociopath. Every interaction we have with him is a battle/nightmare, he refuses to deal with me at all since he can manipulate my wife and he knows I won't put up with him. Although we have a report from the psychologist on his interactions with the children, we were not able to admit it in court because he refused to sign a hippa notification. He actually causes more problems for the children for many reasons, but I digress and that isn't the point here. He is more of a problem than anything so if he went far far away I would lose no sleep over it at all. Oh, he pays for NOTHING as well, except for court mandated child support at a level that isn't even worth mentioning here. I pay all insurance, co-pays, everything. Enough said there.
Here is my problem, I firmly believe once crisis is over, any attempts to change are over as well. I did not artificially create a crisis to effect change, that never works. I think I stated before that she is a "two chapter person", once you read the first two chapters you have your excuse for your behavior and no need to read any further. If I felt that she was serious, I would give her several months to "work" on it, problem is, she isn't. My world is caving in, I have no place to live as of October 1st, and I can't even call and make an appointment to be evaluated? I want someone to do it for me? I understand there are disconnects in the brain, I really do, but come on, does nothing sink in?
Can
Submitted by lynninny on
I think that when you reach a point where you have done all that you can, then that is it. I clearly remember standing over my spouse, exhausted, as he lay in bed in the afternoon, and saying clearly, "this is the last chance. If you do not make an appointment with a psych professional today I am taking the children and leaving. I am sorry. I have been asking for five years and I can't wait any more." And he said no, and why, continuing his denial. I could not help him and he needed to help himself.
I realized that down the road, even if he helped himself, it would be great for him but too late for our marriage. I know what you mean. I was not threatening him to create a crisis. I just needed to go. I have been there, living with a person who could hardly function, and I know what it can do to you. I think staying and trying to help her even if you plan to divorce is a mistake. When is it over? When do you leave then?
Maybe making the appointment is tough for her-not a task thing but an acceptance thing-many liken it to an alcoholic hitting rock bottom and admitting he needs help. I made one for mine and he canceled it. She may never make one, or she may do it tomorrow. Peace to you.
"does nothing sink in?"
Submitted by sunlight on
"does nothing sink in?"
She knows something is wrong, she doesn't know what. Her brain does not perceive reality the way yours does because the thought processes are physically disrupted. (I am simplifying). Right now nobody knows whether she has ADHD, including both of you.
"two chapter person"
Untreated ADHD can easily manifest that way, it is very typical. Regarding her focus on the children and her inability to move forward ("stuckiness") again this is a sign of ADHD and in fact over-focussing seems to be an identifiable subtype. An up-to-date psychiatrist should be able to spot it.
Getting specific, you can try this questionnaire:
http://www.drpaulschenk.com/forms/Amen_ADD_Questionnaire.pdf
By the way this is a good checklist to have her take to a psychiatrist if it ever gets that far. For now you don't have to show it to her but take a look yourself.
"I firmly believe once crisis is over, any attempts to change are over as well"
That is probably true if she a) has ADHD and does not get diagnosed treated b) it isn't ADHD.
What if you are wrong? You seem to be resistant to learning more about ADHD. Do you really want to move on regardless? I am hearing that if she got diagnosed, got treatment, turned completely around - then you would still leave her. Are you just too tired to carry on?
Edited to add: Regarding counselling and 'talk therapy' - that might get her to see a psychiatrist but as far as addressing ADHD - it will not and can not work until the basic neurological issue is addressed. ADHD has a physical cause, it is not learned or a facet of personality. So until the brain chemistry is addressed then she cannot will herself to get better. Some may have mild ADHD which can be addressed with supplements, exercise etc but she does not seem like one of those cases.
Too tired to carry on unless
Submitted by bd2595 (not verified) on
It isn't that I am too tired to carry on. I have to see significant effort to change and from what I am hearing that just doesn't occur with people with ADHD.
It isn't that I am resistant to learning more about ADHD, I am fine with that I am the one that started the suggestion to her. It seems as if even after it is diagnosed and then the meds are prescribed, adjusted, maybe they work, maybe not, we do behavior modification, I modify how I say things and participate in this process, we do all this and based on what I am hearing on the site it doesn't improve much. I have received responses from people that say that it's a constant battle to get the person affected to take medications, if they don't take them then they are back in the same situation, they can still only be trusted with basic things because important things will likely still slip through the cracks, so on. No offense but the prognosis isn't great. I have to make major modifications to how I interact, I have to be the one planning the future, because even with medication I am told that will likely never improve, sadly my wife thinks about maybe the next five minutes. The problem is, this is an adult, and they make decisions that affect both partners, but right now and even in the future 85% of the burden still remains on me to deal with poorly thought out decisions. Most information I read defines that the ADHD partner will not be able to perform certain functions, what I call connecting the dots, even with medication. I have children from another marriage and they came to visit, (they are older) and it was a disaster. I was apologizing for my wife continually because she demanded attention, she wouldn't stop texting or calling, I had to shut off my phone when with the kids, when I went home it was just sad how demanding she was of attention. I only see my children a few times a year, so I go visit them instead now because I don't want a repeat of that disaster.
"She knows something is wrong, she doesn't know what."
No, she doesn't know something is wrong. She knows that something is threatening her way of life, divorce, and that she would be hard pressed to care for herself and her two children, and that she needs to show "some" effort on some front. I do not pretend to understand a great deal about ADHD, but if there is no effort to see "what" is wrong, then what's the point? I can clearly identify things that are not considered normal behavior, calling your husband at 1 am and again at 3 am in England on a business trip after having the time difference explained, calling him 25 times in one day, spending two hours discussing a birthday party and reaching no conclusion, getting maybe 45 minutes of work done in an 8 hour day, getting lost with two GPS units in the car, spending 4 hours on a car trip discussing extra curricular activities for the children and reaching no decision. I cringe when my phone rings and try to determine what the crisis of the next half hour will be.
Again, I have to come to a point, and I am there, where I realize the benefit isn't outweighing the cost.
She knows you are unhappy
Submitted by ShelleyNW on
And for many spouses that would be enough to say, well I don't think I'm mentally ill but let's let the doctor decide. Apparently not for your wife. I am one who has said that it is a struggle. But not every day is miserable during the process. The love equity tank gets injections which helps offset the ADHD withdrawals. The key is that the ADHD person has taken ownership of his or her condition and recognizes how treatment will get them what they want. I'm hearing from your posts that you don't trust your wife to do so because it was only the crisis that created movement. Valid distrust since she had been so resistant to the ADHD idea before.
i think that most of the responses encouraging you to stay were out of empathy for your wife and her kids, and a desire to hope for the best in their own marriages, as well as correcting the technical misunderstanding of how ADHD works. Confirmation bias is powerful, we have chosen to keep fighting for our marriages so we want other people to as well. But I know that sometimes divorce is the right answer. It sounds like it is for you, and your wife will be better off in the long run too because she will be forced to function.
Alone
Submitted by lynninny on
I wonder how she did between marriages or by herself? Your wife sounds overwhelmed by insecurity and believing she can't do anything or make a decision without you. She sounds so used to relying on you to ride to the rescue - hence the request to take care of her dad in the other post without even considering how it would sound to you. Also, the impulsiveness of ADHD could result in those frequent phone calls and interruptions and not picking up on you being disturbed by it. I am sorry you are in this painful situation. You sound like a thoughtful person and I hope everything works out for you.
So if it's over
Submitted by glider14 on
Bd2595, I wasn't suggesting that you serve as your wife's actual therapist (see the first paragraph of my message - "line up a coach or therapist") but given your education in counseling it is understandable that you thought I was implying it by my later statement. I merely meant that the work of getting her evaluated, possibly medicated, and set up with a coach/therapist might feel more like a (therapist's) job than being a spouse. That is one of the most frequent complaints on the blog.
It sounds as though it might be a long haul indeed for your wife to turn her behaviors around. This is why I suggested, because you are likely to leave her soon, a brief effort toward first steps (evaluation and initial treatment for whatever condition(s) she might have). Especially given the situation with the kids' father, it would be very helpful to their school to fully know what's going on with the mother. In some cities/states, a parential diagnosis can lead to help for the kids. That might give you peace of mind later, however frazzled you are at present.
You have correctly perceived her impulse toward maintaining the status quo ("She knows that something is threatening her way of life") rather than moving toward changes she doesn't understand (low empathy). Yet without a diagnosis and initial treatment, the boundaries she's already bumping up against - probable divorce, societal rejection of her behaviors - may propel her only to seeking another husband/parent. She wouldn't have the ghost of a chance at any real change. Her current unworkable coping mechanisms are all she knows.
We all understand your difficulties, bd2595.
The bottome line...
Submitted by bd2595 (not verified) on
If I felt she was serious about the hard work of getting to what is wrong, deciding to work together, and then following through, I would be all in. Right now I am being told, by her, that I have to nearly force or cajole her into action, and I am familiar with follow through on something your not committed to, it turns out badly. I am going to the appointment I made for her on Monday with her doctor and I will be in the room to at least imply some of what I see going on.
I provided advance warning to allow her to prepare to move on and I hope she does.
Great, bd2595
Submitted by glider14 on
I noticed..
Submitted by Bd2595 on
I think my response is still in the thread...
Submitted by smilingagain on
Bd2592
Submitted by sunlight on
Is that post at this link?:
http://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/filing-divorce-and-believe-my-spouse...
Sometimes it is easy to get lost in these message threads, forgive me if that's not the one.
Also, I think it will help a doctor if you have some notes (better still if she had written her view of the problem but obviously she is not there yet), and if you can possibly get her to go through the questionnaire (link above) plus your response to the questionnaire (or any of the many other on the internet). I know that you feel it is asking a lot, and it is. All I can add is that my ADHD husband functioned more highly pre-diagnosis than your wife seems to, but I still had him do a questionnaire (I did it too), and made sure he went to his first appt with it in hand. I told him he didn't have to talk about it, just hand the paper to the psychiatrist and let him take it from there. The psychiatrist took one look and said words to the effect of 'well, hmm, I see, really'.
I hope your wife has a good first appt. Resistance to meds is going to be a problem if it is ADHD - they can make such a difference that a positive change would probably give her encouragement and motivation to see that she could change further. My husband was resistant, now he has seen the effect (felt it in his own brain) he is fully on board and happier on them than off. I don't believe he's the only person on the planet like that, let's hope your wife can see hope after the appt. Best wishes to all of you. (sorry for the formatting , for some reason all newline and paragraph spilts are being stripped out, and I am using the same browser and system as usual)
I hope she does too
Submitted by Bd2595 on