My husband and I have been married seven years this November 2015, we have two small children. I have always worked full time and paid for the majority. My husband has a long history of securing work, being promoted, getting fired. The reasons are always the same, he has had professional coaches, therapists, my support (I am also a therapist), and countless other interventions. The outcome remains the same because of some deep issues he is not ready to resolve around confidence, vulnerbility, work ethic etc. in addition to his ADD symptoms such as highly distracted, disorganized, and lacks follow through. Recently I started to really look at our finances, which I have been in charge of and are completely out of control. I make enough money to support myself and our children, but I can not support my husband too. My husband does work part time and makes enough money to cover health insurance for the family, half of the mortgage, utility, childcare, and credit card debt. He does not make enough money to pay his student loans, for food, gasoline, car repairs or insurance, clothing, incidentals, or his cell phone. I am growing more and more resentful paying for him while he stays home and works part time at a low paying job. I have met with financial counselors, cut every single luxury cost, and done my own budgeting for many years sucessfully prior to marriage and always managed to save and have great credit. The simple fact is I do not make enough to support him and pay formyself and the kids. I have decied to stop paying for him and have him pay for his own phone, student loans, etc. When I do the budget with him being responsible for expenses directly related to himself I then have a surplus of thousands of dollars each month that I can then use to pay down our debt (we no longer are accruing debt but the fees are growing fast) much for aggressively and finally pay for other things we need to address (like squirrels in our attic!). He is angry at me, blames me, and feels I am runing his life. He does not argue that it has been hard for me, but clearly does not understand just how hard I have worked to support him and our kids. I feel this my only remaining strategy. My question is - have any of you ever separated your finances and been successful financially as well as emotionally/psychologically? Have you ever used this strategy and seen any relief for yourself? I feel so angry, resentful, hurt, and decieved that I need something to change to stop drowning. Our relationship is not in good condition, even though we still seem to manage to connect in some ways at times - but less and less frequently because the dynamics of me as the caretaker-him as the child are taking over.
Can we really be financially separate and still emotionally & psychologicallymarried?
Submitted by MaineMama on 10/08/2015.
My question is - have any of you ever separated your finances an
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<<
My question is - have any of you ever separated your finances and been successful financially as well as emotionally/psychologically? Have you ever used this strategy and seen any relief for yourself? I
<<<
Yes....and it's the best thing ever. Do it.
My H always made a very good income, but spent like a drunken sailor. I keep my income separate, BEST THING ever.
There is no reason for you to pay for "his stuff". He needs to face whatever demons are getting in the way of him working a full time job. He should be paying for his student loans, not you. If his income is low enough and if those are fed loans, he may be able to get an adjustment on his payments based on his income...has he looked into that? If he can't find a real full time job, then he can work two part time jobs...and the second job can pay for his stuff.
However, if you put this plan into place, make sure that he won't just stop paying for half the mortgage and other costs. He may just use his money to pay for "his stuff"....and give you nothing for household bills. If so, then I would make him move out. Make sure he pays "house stuff" first when he gets paid.
My sister does this. Her H only works part time, but he has to provide household money first....and then whatever is left over is his money to spend on his expenses. They've been married for 17 years.
Never combined, very happy about it
Submitted by mollys on
I agree with overwhelmedwife. It works for us.
My H and I never fully combined our finances, but didn't have any massive problems that led to that decision. We've had a few forgotten payments that are frustrating, but nothing ever got to collections. Our only big money issue came after the decision to stay separate. (Well intentioned but still hidden debt that came out when we applied for our mortgage. We got the loan, but I looked and felt really stupid in the process.)
We started living together in college, when I received VA education benefits that included a housing stipend that was just enough to cover rent. On top of that, we had pretty equal income from similar minimum wage part-time jobs. In the beginning, I paid the rent because of the housing stipend. We did fight about this a little, but things got better when he started taking up a fair share of other expenses. Once we graduated, the military benefits stopped, but we both got full-time jobs. Things evened out the rest of the way. I think things are fair now, and I think he'd agree.
We use the same credit union, so we were able to set up internal transfers. They show up immediately and cost nothing.
I've used a Google calendar to track all of my bills for a long time, and I recently shared it with him, and helped him add his bills. At first he was defensive, but when he understood non-ADHD people (at least, the one he's married to) need calendars with reminders too, he was more receptive. I don't know if he uses it, but that's okay, because...
We also have a spreadsheet with a list the bills that are not autopaid with a checklist for the previous month and the current one. Pay the bill, mark it off. We also track the utilities we each pay on that spreadsheet, and we balance the difference once a month. The spreadsheet helps, because I can check to see if things are on track without what he sees as nagging. If the spreadsheet hasn't been filled out lately, I request that he updates it, and he hasn't gotten defensive about it yet.
For me, the money doesn't have to be exactly equal, it just has to be fair. MaineMama, it sounds like you just want things to be fair. That's very reasonable.
Finances - be informed
Submitted by jennalemone on
When you retire. You will both divide in half all assets and IRAs. (NOT PENSIONS OR SOCIAL SECURITY) I was surprised to learn that after 40 years of marriage, a wife does not split Social Security equally. It was told to me BY SOCIAL SECURITY staff late in life that Social Security is a PERSONAL INSURANCE! I was told by lawyer that Social Security is not an asset to be split. That means that a husband will receive Social Security based on his earning and you will receive Social Security based on YOUR earnings. Inheritances, (IF KEPT SEPARATELY for all time) are given totally to the one earning the inheritance...not split. PENSIONS earned by the wage earner are not split equaly but are paid to the EARNER and STOP (if chosen from the beginning) when the EARNER dies. A wife that stayed home caring for home and children has the option (ONE TIME ONLY CHANCE TO DECIDE) to be paid HALF of her husband's (or ex husband's) Social Security OR Social Security based on her earnings alone. This means that a wife who divorces and either didn't work or worked part time and took care of home and children could, in the event of divorce, have to live on HALF her spouses Social Security, none of his pension and half the total assets. While her spouse could have his total Social Security, all his pension and half the assets.
Be informed.
<PENSIONS earned by the wage
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<PENSIONS earned by the wage earner are not split equally but are paid to the EARNER and STOP (if chosen from the beginning) when the EARNER dies.
<<<
Not true. Pensions earned during the marriage are martial assets....and I'm almost certain that this is true in all 50 states. the same with 401Ks.
(NOTE:....I just looked it up....this is true in all 50 states. Pensions earned during the marriage are a Marital asset, and therefore subject to being split at time of divorce. But, of course, a couple can CHOOSE to do something different. BUT, certainly a spouse with no pension or a lesser pension can insist on getting "their half" of their spouse's retirement that was earned during the marriage.)
I've been thru this TWICE since my H has filed for divorce TWICE. Each time, when H realized in black and white that I would get half of his large pension and half of his 401k, he withdrew the divorce. That wasn't the only reason, but it was a big reason. H knew that he couldn't live on half of his retirement and that his chances of attracting some hot babe would be diminished at half of his pension and half of his 401k.....not to mention it would annoy him for me to receive half. Now, if each spouse has a similar retirement, then they can certainly choose not to split.
A couple can always choose to handle things differently, but pensions are a marital assets, earned from work. Each side would have to agree to a splitting differently.
I didn't have a pension (had been a housewife for over 20 years at the point of his filings), so of course I wasn't agreeing to anything but a 50% split.
We didn't divorce, and H has since retired, so I now have 100% survivorship rights....which means that upon his death, I get the entire pension.....and that was "fixed" at the time of his retirement so that can't change.
Think about it.....do you really think that some 25 year married housewife whose husband has the only pension earned during the marriage would get none of it if they divorced? No way. That pension was earned during the marriage from work....so it's a marital asset.
Pensions are considered to be part of one's earnings....either directly thru contribution (or marital money) or by company contributions (which means it's part of the "hidden paycheck")....therefore pensions are considered to be earnings during the marriage from a job.
H, because of his severe ADHD, would "forget" what his attorney had told him and would insist that he could prevent me from getting half. lol H had the SAME attorney for each filing. I'm sure that she though he was completely insane when she had to explain to him during the second filing the SAME things that she told him the first time. After H withdrew the second divorce filing, she told my attorney that she never wanted to see or hear from H again. He had been one of her most difficult clients in her 20+ year experience.
I have an inheritance that I have always kept cleanly separated from marital assets. H was told each time he had no right to any of it. He even had a forensic accountant look to see if I had ever violated keeping it separated. I was perfect at keeping the monies separated. So, he was told it was solely mine.
Thanks overwhelmed
Submitted by jennalemone on
Thanks for giving us the whole pension story. I was basing my assumptions on what happened to my friend's mother, who died penniless after living a long time after her husband died. He had set his pension up long ago to receive more money up front but stop after he died.
Yes, that used to happen....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
there was a time when a worker with a pension (often the husband) could unilaterally choose how he wanted to receive (more upfront, no survivor benefits).
However, because of cases like you described, all 50 states have laws that require that married people get a NOTARIZED signature from their spouse at the time of retirement if anything other than 100% survivor benefits is chosen.
It was insane that the old way was ever allowed because pensions are a shared asset.
Because my H chose 100%, the signature wasn't needed....but the retirement counselor (the HR person handling the processing), made it quite clear that if anything else was selected, a notarized signature from me would be needed. The monthly pension payments reduce with each option. H's pension is about $10k less per year because of the 100% option. If he (and I) had agreed to the 75%, 50% or 0% option, then his monthly payment would be higher, depending on the selection.
I once worked with a man who was having to support his mother-in-law (she had to move in with them). This was years ago before the laws were changed. Her husband had also opted to take the "bigger amount" ...and then suddenly died about 14 months later leaving his wife with no income besides SS....not enough to live on. The husband was obviously short-sighted or selfish. I know that it can be tempting to choose the higher amount if there's a fear that a lower amount will be hard to live with....but the bigger fear would be how is the widow supposed to live on nearly nothing??? I'm sure some jerks are just thinking, "It's my pension, I want the most money."
Thankfully, the govts have put laws in place to protect from this. These laws are about 10 or so years old.
Our only big money issue came after the decision to stay separat
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<< Our only big money issue came after the decision to stay separate. (Well intentioned but still hidden debt that came out when we applied for our mortgage. We got the loan, but I looked and felt really stupid in the process>>>
Does this mean that when you both applied for your mortgage it revealed that your H has or had debt that he wasn't telling you about? If so, how do you prevent that happening now (or even a lot more debt)? Do you both insist on seeing each other's debt on a regular basis or insist that you both know which credit cards you each have (and any debt)?
>>
I've used a Google calendar to track all of my bills for a long time, and I recently shared it with him, and helped him add his bills. At first he was defensive, but when he understood non-ADHD people (at least, the one he's married to) need calendars with reminders too, he was more receptive. I don't know if he uses it, but that's okay, because...
>>
The self-esteem issue must really get in the way when ADHD people are presented with tools to help them stay on track. Their stubbornness must come out with, "oh, you regular people don't need these crutches, so I don't either!"
That is one reason I insist on auto-pay for every bill....even mine. Even H can't believe how much more we save by using auto-pay. I can't tell you how many times we would end up paying "late penalties" because H would delay paying a bill (procrastination) and we'd end up paying $40 more per bill. This would happen a few times per month, but each time H would say, "oh, it's just $40, stop making a big deal out of it." But, it wasn't a one-time thing....it was a few times a month, EVERY month. Despite H's great math skills, his denial/ADHD would never motivate him to actually add it all up.
That's another issue. ADHD people who are quite smart and good with math, will NOT add these things up. Each expense (or penalty fee) exists in a vacuum to them. The expense occurs, and then it's gone in their head.
H used to buy a LOT of supplements for various things. Each time he'd go to a store, he'd buy some. But, he never added them all up to see how much he was spending EACH month on these things. The same will all of H's Rx's.
One day I added them all up. H was in shock. While he says he can't change his Rx's (two are really optional, particularly a very expensive one), he had to admit that the supplements added up to a monthly amount that was ridiculous. Once he saw that in black and white, he agreed to really cut back on the supplements. We also looked to see where he could get the couple he wanted to keep getting at a much lower price (club stores and Amazon).
Credit reports and autopay
Submitted by mollys on
> Does this mean that when you both applied for your mortgage it revealed that your H has or had debt that he wasn't telling you about? If so, how do you prevent that happening now (or even a lot more debt)? Do you both insist on seeing each other's debt on a regular basis or insist that you both know which credit cards you each have (and any debt)?
Yes to both. Our mortgage officer called when she couldn't reach him and asked me about such and such account. Long story short, he hid it out of shame of not doing a one-time expense right the first time, and not wanting me to know that he'd opened a new credit card to fix it. It was money we would have spent anyway, so I wasn't upset with him about the debt, just the lie. Now we review the credit reports that come with our credit cards. We're both on the same page with getting our CC debt paid down, so he's receptive to these monthly review meetings.
This was also before he was on the meds he takes now. He tried several non-stimulants first, and they just didn't work. We both think something else could be working better than the adderall is now, but it is a definite improvement. We're kind of stuck until our insurance updates in January to get a better psychiatrist and prescription coverage.
> That is one reason I insist on auto-pay for every bill....even mine. Even H can't believe how much more we save by using auto-pay. I can't tell you how many times we would end up paying "late penalties" because H would delay paying a bill (procrastination) and we'd end up paying $40 more per bill. This would happen a few times per month, but each time H would say, "oh, it's just $40, stop making a big deal out of it." But, it wasn't a one-time thing....it was a few times a month, EVERY month. Despite H's great math skills, his denial/ADHD would never motivate him to actually add it all up.
Yes, yes, yes! I haven't fully convinced him to switch everything, but we're slowly converting the straggler accounts. Between the autopays and the checklist, our late fees are a thing of the past. Knock on wood.
> That's another issue. ADHD people who are quite smart and good with math, will NOT add these things up. Each expense (or penalty fee) exists in a vacuum to them. The expense occurs, and then it's gone in their head.
He's great with math, and honestly pretty good with planning if he can get hyperfocused on it. Cooking Christmas lunch for my father and in-laws is a dream (no sarcasm), because H will have a super detailed plan for what needs to be prepped and cooked with times and temperatures for everything. It may take him a few hours on Christmas eve to get everything written down, but that doesn't really bother me now. This may change when we have kids in a few years.
Love the Christmas dinner detail
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
When my husband cooks holiday dinners, we have so much food there isn't room for plates on the table, and everything comes out at the wrong time so half of it is cold, BUT! I am grateful he is there making dinner and not somewhere else.
I keep my finances separate, but it makes me sad when I see my friends joined financial success stories. And my husband makes twice as much money as I do and we split the bills equally. Fortunately, it seems all ADD spouses like spending money which makes my husband fairly generous so I let him pay for dinners out even though I would rather eat at home.
Encouraged
Submitted by MaineMama on
Thank you for your response, I agree about being clear my H pays household expenses first. He does not spend without asking first and has used the budget I provided after the first year of fighting about the need for a budget. But, I have always paid for his loans, phone, transportation etc. I am nervous about how this shift will go and if he will continue to meet obligations now that he will not have any funds for himself (he just does not make enough to have any left over funds after the essential and minimal bills are paid).
he just does not make enough to have any left over funds after t
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<,< he just does not make enough to have any left over funds after the essential and minimal bills are paid).<<
in the past, would you say that you've been "rescuing" him by paying his bills so that he would have "leftover funds"?
I had a talk with my housekeeper today. She sends her 30 year old son money on a regular basis - that she really cannot afford to send. Her son spends first on booze, cigarettes, and women...and then won't have enough money for the "light bill'. My housekeeper regularly has to ask me for money...mostly because when she gives her son money, she ends up running short herself. Her son does work a good paying job, but her son prefers spending his money frivolously.
I believe that if she just stopped providing him money he'd be more careful with his. .
Extra Funds
Submitted by MaineMama on
My H does not purchase things without my permission, we established this after a very rough first year of fighting about budgets and limits on spending and working him out of some debt. Overall our life style is modest, the challenge for us is having a mortgage, childcare expenses, credit card debt and student loans in addition to minimal other bills such as phone, utilities. He does not make enough money to help support the family, he stays home almost every day and works some nights. The "extra" money I speak of is that I have paid his student loans, cell phone, transportation, food, and incidentals (shampoo etc.) along with car insurance, car repairs, taxes etc. This does not make sense financially as it takes all the money I earn for the family and routinely uses a good portion directly for him without him having to contribute more. If I am going to have to work full time and pay the majority then I no longer feel like I should pay for him without a real effort on his part to gain and sustain full time, well paid employment. The irony for paying for his loans for a masters degree in business while he works part time doing a job I did as a teenager kills me. Overall I do think the strategy you suggest for your housekeeper is what I have in mind though, if I stop rescuing him he has to either rescue himself or fail. I am pretty sure he will fail as he has never rescued himself ever at almost fifty - but I can no longer let that be my problem. He can go without food, gets rides to and from work with coworkers, and the like. That is for him to figure out.
childcare expenses,
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
If he is home during the day, why isn't he taking care of the kids?
If he insists on only working part-time, then he should have to do what part-time working mothers do, and that's work only when either they're in school, or the other spouse is home.
It sounds like you two work opposite schedules. If you don't, then THAT should change if he won't work more.
I agree that the student loans for a masters degree that he's not using is just appalling. After all, I'm sure he justified taking those loans to "get a better job."
What is the business master's degree in? Marketing? Mgmt? What was his career goal?
What is his part-time job? Fast food? store like Home Depot?
One thing about ADHD people is that:
A) they only like working on things that they like....so what does he like? And what did he get his degrees in?
B) they are often afraid to look for jobs because of the rejection.
did he ever work full time? If so, what happened?
Thinking about his decisions and trying to explain them is crazy
Submitted by MaineMama on
My H had worked full time for very short periods of time through his entire life. He is smart and gets promoted to do things like be the executive director somewhere and then makes mistakes, refuses to accept or ask for help, misses important deadlines etc. All very typical to ADD/ADHD symptoms - I get it. He has had coaches, therapists etc. I am also a very seasoned therapist and help lots of people with these same symptoms. My H refuses to get help, he wants things to stay the same - he is more comfortable with me taking care of him and him not facing and dealing with hiss challenges. Routinely after he is promoted he is fired, over and over and over. Now he has a part time job, a fall back job, for 20-30 hours each week and works whenever he can. Two days a week, and three nights a week. This is low paid but his choice. He likes his job and does well.
But, we can not afford his choices and our life with his lack of income, he wants it both ways. NOPE.
I could spend hours asking questions like your questions, but that strategy of being reasonable and trying to use evidence based practices with someone who refuses to change because they are comfortable will not work. I have spent countless hours in therapy, with coaches, helping him with plans, writing simple directions, visuals, reminders, etc etc, etc. He does not want to change, I can not make him and I am no longer going to pay for his leisure lifestyle.
Next year childcare costs end for one of our children and then the next year they greatly reduce for the other child. So, in three years we have no more childcare at all. My student loans are paid off in right about the same amount of time. So my goals will be coming to fruition soon, with focus on paying off the remaining credit card debt. Then we will have zero debt together and he will have his student loans - which he earned prior to marriage. This is my plan!!
gets promoted to do things like be the executive director somewh
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
gets promoted to do things like be the executive director somewhere and then makes mistakes, refuses to accept or ask for help, misses important deadlines etc. All very typical to ADD/ADHD symptoms - I get it.
Routinely after he is promoted he is fired, over and over and over.
>>>>
To an outsider, this is what stands out. From the little info that's been provided, it sounds like when he's a "worker bee" (non-management) he does fine (which is why he gets promoted). BUT....he's not cut-out to be a leader or manager (or "director").
To me, that means that while he's a "worker bee," he's fine doing whatever a "real leader" tells him what to do. BUT, when he becomes the leader, he's not able to make the most efficient choices/decisions, and either gets in over his head, or his decisions prove to be wrong-headed, costly, or "not the most efficient way".
The solution seems to be: Get a full time job, do well, but do not accept positions of "leadership".
My H is a horrible leader. He did very well in his career, getting promoted in the "technical ladder", but when he had to manage people late in his career, things fell apart. Thankfully, he already had over 30 years with his job and was able to "gracefully retire". I know that if he had been promoted into "leadership" positions earlier in his career, it would have been a disaster.
I own a business, and I've been told that I have a good, "business head". Since H has been retired, he has helped me with my business, but he is only helpful as a "worker bee" (doing what I tell him to do.) When he occasionally makes "business decision suggestions," they are often so laughable (but I don't let him know that) and so short-sighted, that I can see why he never would have succeeded as any sort of "director". He was super just moving up as a technical expert, but horrible once given the opportunity to "manage" a very large group.
<<< He has had coaches, therapists etc. I am also a very seasoned therapist and help lots of people with these same symptoms. >>>
I can see why coaches, etc, won't work. Coaches wouldn't work for my H either. You can't make a fish live on land.
Your H needs to be working "in his element"....and that's not as a director. Why isn't he looking for work doing what he was doing BEFORE the promotions....when he was a worker bee?
>>>
My H refuses to get help, he wants things to stay the same - he is more comfortable with me taking care of him and him not facing and dealing with hiss challenges.
>>>
Yes, because all of those firings have been traumatic blows to his ego. You know as a therapist that men identify with their jobs. It's who they are. The equivalent is women and their kids/homes.
He has convinced himself that he wants things to "stay the same" because he's in his foxhole. He feels that no one can hurt (fire) him again in such embarrassing ways....getting promoted, failing, getting fired. He's hiding behind you, his "rock".
He needs to be forced to get back out there. Your plan not to continue bailing him out will hopefully inspire him to realize that he must work full-time. If he gets to that point of admitting that he must work/earn MORE, then maybe he'll be open to hearing that he needs to find "worker bee" jobs where he can shine, as he did before promotions.
Exactly!
Submitted by MaineMama on
As you may guess I have also been in leadership and held a great deal of responsibility in my career, managing hundreds of people and millions of dollars. Like you I understand and accept my H is a "worker bee", he does not like that personal identity story so he looks for promotions. No matter how much I have tried to encourage him to secure and maintain a specific at level job he wants the higher responsibility because he likes the prestige and identity that comes with those types of job. I can not convince him otherwise. The part I can do it stop letting him hide behind me, done. He was talking even last night with this new financial plan in place how he will create a management position with leadership for himself at the organization where he works part time. He is delusional at best, he then questions his ability when he fails at his big ideas and continues to hide.
Like you I understand and accept my H is a "worker bee", he does
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<< Like you I understand and accept my H is a "worker bee", he does not like that personal identity story so he looks for promotions. No matter how much I have tried to encourage him to secure and maintain a specific at level job he wants the higher responsibility because he likes the prestige and identity that comes with those types of job. I can not convince him otherwise. >>>
lol...does he realize how insane that sounds in the context of his current situation?
Is he really saying, "I would rather work part-time in an embarrassingly low paid position, rather than take a HIGHER paying full-time position and not seek further promotions." ???
If he can work his CURRENT job without seeking promotions and accepting the "lack of prestige" with his CURRENT job, then he can accept the "lack of prestige" with a BETTER job that is full time and pays more.
I would pull the bull-shit flag on this excuse.
Agreed!
Submitted by MaineMama on
Yes, exactly. I agree. It is all so illogical. He is not able to reason with me, he is defensive no matter the approach. I wish you were the person I had to convince because you seem easily to get my points and see right through the excuses and defenses. My energy is wasted trying to reason, this is why I am forcing the change where I know it will directly impact him and his perceived comfort. I wish we could have been more collaborative, more receptive, taken more initiative, advocated for what he needed and been realistic about how to achieve it. But, he has not. It is overdue time for me to set some hard limits and be consistent. At the very least it gives me some relief.
It is overdue time for me to set some hard limits and be consist
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<< It is overdue time for me to set some hard limits and be consistent <<
Yes!
I would be very matter-of-fact about it. Let him know what you will no longer be paying for. Calmly state that since he doesn't mind the "lack of prestige" at his current job, then you know that he'll be able to tolerate the "lack of prestige" at a new full time job that will pay his bills.
Know the risk
Submitted by doublej on
I haven't separated our finances because I live in a community property state. Married couples are jointly responsible for debt accrued during marriage (even if only one spouse ran up the debt). Also, unpaid debt (like student loans) could affect joint assets (like a lien on the house). I can't take that risk. You should get legal advice for structuring money.
I'll tell you a brilliant idea I tried to implement a couple of years ago. We had a joint account for all household bills (mortgage, insurance, groceries, etc). We each had a personal account for individual purchases like gas, medications, hygiene. At the start of the month, I put money into personal accounts. The amounts were based on averages of six years of hard data (I am an obnoxious record keeper). They were NOT equal amounts (he needed more money for gas and medications). I loved it. I felt like I didn't have to nag my husband or get into that parent/child dynamic. It also afforded me little luxuries (like decent haircuts) that I had been denying myself for years.
In short, it didn't work. Without fail, my husband would run out of money mid-month. So, we still fight and I still nag. Some financial pressure has abated in the past couple of years mainly because there are no more credit cards--ever. My husband knows that is a deal breaker for me.
No moral to the story here...only that some ADHD's literally cannot handle money.
Electricity and the IRS
Submitted by jennalemone on
Be sure that a spouse who is not good with money or paying bills is totally in charge of utilities....It only has to happen once that he is alone in a cold house for electricity bill to be paid every month. You get to go to a hotel for a few nights while he figures it out.
Let him also be in charge of income taxes. Tell him you don't care if they take you both to jail. You will not pay it for him. It is HIS. Let him think the IRS is after him if he doesn't pay.
I learned the hard way. I had been taking up the slack every time H would say, "I don't have it". when it came to his portion of bills. No more, at least not for utilities and the IRS.
My H respect his own comfort and has great respect for the IRS and can rally only when he believes he is in discomfort or danger.
Responses Vary
Submitted by MaineMama on
In the past if I leave the responsibility for something major in my H's hands he will still forget/ignore it and when the consequences hit (i.e. no food, no utilities etc.) he just accepts that as fate. My H has a defeatest attitude and expects very little from himself and others, he will go without and expect we should too. I need to protect myself and my small children from a cold house during a Maine winter, or having no home at all! This is why I pay the bills. I am trying to shift the expenses directly related to just him to him, that way we do not pay the consequences directly for his lack of participation in the financial well being of the family.
No moral to the story here...only that some ADHD's literally can
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
>>> No moral to the story here...only that some ADHD's literally cannot handle money.>>>
This is very true, but couples do need to put some rules in place. The rules may be that all income goes into one acct for family bills, and then each spouse gets a WEEKLY allowance. Giving an ADHD-poor-money-habits person their entire allowance for a month is a recipe for disaster.. All they can process is the "here and now" aspect of having a big lump sum at one time....the rest of the month be damned.
If an ADHD spouse "needs" $200 a month in allowance, then give him/her $50 a week. Then if they run out after 3-4 days, they will only have to wait af few more days.
I know an ADHD woman who is horrible with money. Her husband has to give her cash everyday to prevent her from overspending. If she needs to grocery shop, he gives her cash and she has to show him the receipts after. He had to insist that she show him the receipts because he found that she was only spending some on food (not enough) and then blowing the rest.
It was the only way the H could be certain that they'd have the money for their mortgage, utilities, food, etc.
The women who wrote the first post can insist that he "pay the household first" (for mortgage, bills, loans), and then let him "keep" the rest for personal spending.
Debt
Submitted by MaineMama on
I am fully prepared (and have been responsible) to pay for our credit card and mortgage debt that we incurred while married. Student loan debt was prior to marriage. We do not have any other debt. I have an account and I also have access to his account, where every week I transfer a specific and set amount to my account to pay the joint bills. I have no idea if it will help me feel less resentful and make him be more participatory - but I am out of other ideas!
I can not support my husband too. My husband does work part time
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
>>> , but I can not support my husband too. My husband does work part time and makes enough money to cover health insurance for the family, half of the mortgage, utility, childcare, and credit card debt. He does not make enough money to pay his student loans, for food, gasoline, car repairs or insurance, clothing, incidentals, or his cell phone. I am growing more and more resentful paying for him while he stays home and works part time at a low paying job. <<<
The way I would approach the H is this: "You took out student loans so that you would be full-time employed and earn a good income (Why else would he have taken those loans?). Working part-time at low wages isn't fair because you have those loans to pay back. (BTW....has he looked into seeing if those loan payments can be "wage adjusted"? If those are federal student loans, then often the payments can be reduced if income is low.)
Give the problem to him. Write down his monthly take home. Then start listing and subtracting the family-related expenses (half mortgage, etc). Then show a balance. Then, start listing and subtracting students loans. then show a balance.
If there is still a balance after those expenses, show him what he has left to pay for his cell phone, and other personal expenses. If he says that is not enough, then the answer is simple: You need to work more. You need a higher paying salary. What are YOU going to do about it?
Stick to the facts, have the numbers in black and white. You need to "burst" the denial that he's living under.
>>>
Recently I started to really look at our finances, which I have been in charge of and are completely out of control.
He is angry at me, blames me, and feels I am ruining his life. He does not argue that it has been hard for me, but clearly does not understand just how hard I have worked to support him and our kids.
<<<<
Sometimes it's easy for people like your H (and my H) to "not understand" because they're not looking at all the hard numbers. They can try to fool themselves by thinking that there is "all this money", so why are they being denied and limited.
One thing that helped us was to set up Auto-Pay for all bills to get paid immediately. This prevented H from playing games with bills...(delaying the payment of one bill so he'd have money for some luxury expense.). The bills get paid the day after the money goes into the acct (not the day the money goes in, because autopays often try to "draw" money after midnight before a paycheck gets credited.)
He needs to understand that he's ruining the family's life....by not helping develop financial stability for the family.
What does your H spend money on that isn't necessary?
We think alike...
Submitted by MaineMama on
Ah yes, I have shown him reality for years. You know what I learned? If someone does not FEEL the problem then they act like the problem is not their problem to solve. I have kept him quite comfortable with very little work on his end. My husband does help care for the children and our home but this financial problem has been mine to carry. We have gone line by line through a budget I drafted, I have asked him to draft a budget and do the math etc. He says he understands, but in reality he just did not feel motivated to make a change. I think my strategy right now is to make him live out the challenge instead of just trying to have him empathize with me (which he did not do!).
What to do about those finances
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
MaineMama,
I have allowed myself to be controlled by the words you have shared: "He is angry at me, blames me, and feels I am runing his life." Not sure if you meant ruining or running - but both apply for me.
I love numbers! Budgets, charts. graphs, financial plans. Goals! Adjustments, and tweaks, and all that jazz.
I have managed our finances more or less since we married in 1984. My spouse is self-employed and I manage the financial end of the business. Up until this past year, I had failed myself greatly in having the tail wag the dog by trying to encourage and keep my spouse happy. I can hardly fathom that I allowed him to be angry at me for my inability to make the finances work, rather than have him share the responsibility of not having enough income to make his choices wise.
We had 3 different financial advisors, that we ultimately let go because my spouse did not feel comfortable with them. In actuality, he was just unable to accept the truths they were telling him. And I went along with him every time.
No more. I have been pigeonholed in the conclusion that if we collectively sold all we had, paid all our debt, and divided the balance, he would have one nickel and I would have one nickel. That has kept me stuck.
Now, I am making better choices. I will have a person who is knowledgeable in finances look at ALL our monies - personal and business, look at our current spending and habits, and give me some options. I am basically struggling to keep our heads above water. I am not willing to do it alone any longer.
My ultimate goal is to have a plan to get me out of the business end, and only have to manage half of the personal finances.
I have allowed myself to be intimidated by feeling it was my responsibility to make what we have work for how my spouse made his choices. Not willing to do that anymore.
When I get some options, I can make some choices.
I will keep you posted.
Liz
Simpatico
Submitted by MaineMama on
Liz, of course I identify with your post 100%. I do not want to be mean, I do need to regain my confidence and assertiveness and take decisive action to improve my situation. I have felt stuck too. Often I felt like I was pushing a boulder against some heavy rain or wind and could not figure out how to make it get to the top and have some relief. Something shifted recently when I just thought about shifting the problem, the literal deficit, to my H. I am not doing this to be punitive or revengeful. I am doing it for some RELIEF. Hoping to see more of myself in the mirror too. :)
Tiny little changes have really added up
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
MaineMama.
I have made lots of changes - each was tiny and seemed insignificant. When I look at all I have accomplished, I am feeling great satisfaction. The collecctive result of all my hard work has a very positive affect on me.
The biggest obstacle I have is my fear of falling back into old patterns of communication with my spouse. I am no match for him. It is amazing how fast I can feel myself pulled down into the mire. My thoughts and ideals feel so twisted and turned, and the second I pause to pull my thoughts together, I get the same ol insult from him, "When are you gonna get some help for yourself?" I really need to find a reply to that. Not a snide come back, not a mean "I am better than you" retort. Right now, what I do is refuse to participate. At times it feels a bit heartless, but I do it for LIZ.
Liz
Help for yourself?
Submitted by MaineMama on
Well we can all agree those of us who have carried the burden do need help too! Sometimes I feel people tell others to do what they need. For instance, my H has always relied on me to do things that are "right" or "good" so he can be dragged along too. The problem with that is he often fights me, refuses, sabotages those "good" and "right" things and wants me to play the role to force him - which I have tried to do. This has been a never ending game of push, pull, shove, threaten - to no avail. My time has come, I have really tried to do things collaboratively but we can not work collaboratively because he does not want to work at all! So when my H blames me I know it ia really he blaming himself. When he tells me to figure something out it is really for him to figure out and so on. The same may be true for your H's suggestion to suggesting you get help. Yes, in deed you need help - your situation is impossible. But he really may be saying he needs help too.
Actually...
Submitted by rharris541 on
I spent 10 years as the executive director of a company, then 2 at another before I let very thing fall apart. There is no substitute for surrounding oneself with a strong team that is balanced by complementary strengths and weaknesses.
If we're talking real "leadership" (as opposed to "management") and he keeps getting promoted, then he is recognized for his VISION and clearly knows his stuff.
Sounds like what he needs, more than anything else, is to get a damn good administrative assistant to manage all the needles while he's looking beyond the forest.
Because Godhasn't yet created anyone who could do BOTH of those things at the same time with any level of success.
Vision
Submitted by MaineMama on
He has great vision, no follow through, typically his responses are conflict filled and/or avoids strategies when things do not go his way. When in leadership you need to be able to deal with people one way or another. He often hides away, sweeps problems under the rug in full denial, and then the board or other senior leaders intervene and he is quickly fired. I have been an executive director too and would not only never hire my H but would see a mile away that he always thinks he is right, he constantly thinks he knows more and better than others, and he refuses to accept input and feedback from anyone. This is a person who is smart, capable in some areas and gets promoted because of the belief of others in what he says he can produce - which he has no real awareness about in the first place.
The same problems he has at work, he has at home with me. He often goes it alone, makes unilateral decisions, and costs the kids and I time and other resources we do not have to give to support him! Then he gets defensive when asked about his thinking or plans to address these issues he has created. He is combative and when finally defeated he acts like nothing happened because then "I would have to admit I am not capable". Great. Denial and refusal to work collaboratively in marriage or professionally will continue to lead to the exact same unfullfiling outcomes.