Hi, I am new to the site, it's my first time posting. I am 31 years old, female, and have been with my 28-year-old boyfriend for about a year now. Though he hasn't been diagnosed officially with ADD or ADHD, since childhood he has been told he has it, and it was simply never addressed; his mother is hyper-sensitive to diagnoses of mental disorders, refuses to acknowledge their presence in her family. I suppose she chose to deny that he had these issues, and so here we are- my wonderful, loving, caring boyfriend is a 28-year-old man with no ability to take care of himself whatsoever.
In the early days of our relationship, I noticed behaviours that I chalked up to flakiness. He was incommunicative, unreliable with plans, and inconsiderate of my time. At the time, we had only been dating a few months, so naturally, I decided to end the relationship. My thinking was, if someone puts in zero effort in the beginning when everything is new and exciting, lets be serious- what will they be like in a year? In ten years?
The break-up didn't exactly go as planned, however- he immediately came to my house, he was extremely upset and crying, and we had a very emotional, sincere conversation about how our relationship had been going, and why I was going to remove myself from it. He convinced me that he would change these things, and to give him another chance. So I did. And he did turn those initial issues around. He became attentive and reliable with our plans and dates. Shortly after, we moved in together, in a haze of new love and hopefulness.
It has been since October that we began living together, and as the months pass, my desire to escape the situation grows. I am struggling so much because I feel torn in half between two values; my desire for financial stability, a balanced, healthy relationship, and romance- and my desire to stay with this person who I love so much. Basically it's like this. My boyfriend works (sometimes full time, often he leaves early, takes days off, whatever. I'm not sure if he's worked a full pay period ever). He has no phone plan, no expenses that come out of his account at all, except $300 towards his car, which isn't on the road, because he can't afford insurance. All of our bills come out of my account. In the time that we have lived together, I don't think he's ever actually paid for his full share of our rent, bills, food, etc. I often feel like he thinks I am his personal credit card, financing everything for us and he can just pay me back at his leisure- as if he doesn't respect or appreciate that it's not easy for me to always have enough money to do that. NOR is it something I WANT to do with my money.
We struggle with the housework situation; I am a very tidy, neat person and general messiness and clutter in my home make me feel distressed- so I pull my weight and then some doing the cleaning. I have never once asked him to do the big weekly clean, as I know that being such a meticulous person, no one will ever do it to my liking and it's best I just do it. All I need is for him to tidy up after himself, and do some chores to contribute. I feel like, when I am home alone, I am constantly busy getting things done about the house- things that benefit both of us. But all he ever does is go to work, come home, and watch TV. So, all along, I've been doing pretty much everything for both of us.
To add pressure to our relatively new and already imbalanced relationship, he became ill with some kidney dysfunctions over Christmas. I spent the next four months taking COMPLETE care of him, as he wasn't even ABLE to contribute if he had wanted to. This did not help. I already felt burdened and burnt out by my able-bodied boyfriend, and then he became not-so-able bodied. His surgery and following recovery has been since February, and he hasn't been 100% really since December. Although this isn't his fault, it has chipped away at me. We hadn't even been together for a year when suddenly I became nursemaid to a man I was already having to mother against my will. Our sex life, of course, was the next aspect of my needs that went up on the chopping block.
Now, it's May.... and in the past few weeks, because he doesn't take proper care of himself, and his recovery was going poorly, he began missing work again, etc. etc. I had to take control over his dietary situation just to get his digestive system and body back on track after these months of trauma and immobility.
This month, he also failed to pay his rent or any of our bills- but I didn't know that would be happening until AFTER our rent came out of my account. So for the last two weeks, my account has been negative $600+. In spite of the fact that I manage my finances very meticulously (though I don't usually have much left over, I do usually have enough to save several hundred dollars a month- however, I had just used my entire savings to pay my taxes, which my SO was fully aware of) I am now in a financially very unstable and frightening situation because of HIM failing to pay his own share of our rent and bills. He has owed me over $1000 for a month now. I suddenly went from being someone who has more than enough to cover everything on her budget, and has enough to save up for her future plans (paying for rehearsal spaces with my band, enrolling in a real estate course) to being completely unable to even pay for my bus tokens, let alone tend to my personal goals- the REASONS I find motivation to work and save.
I am honest with him about my frustration, my doubts for our future, and my feelings of being taken for granted. His apologies and regret always seem very sincere, but he only really tries to change anything for like a day. There will be like one-three days of wonderful effort, of feeling like "this is a normal relationship, this is a true partnership," and then it goes back to how it is now. I've tried making him lists of small household tasks, it is on the fridge- we made a deal that he could just do 1-3 things off that list every day and it would make a big difference. It really would. But he doesn't stick with it.
I feel like if I don't pack him lunch every day to take to work, he'll either just have no lunch, or he'll buy junky fast food- and then his tummy gets all messed up, and I'm stuck taking care of a sick person. It's like there is no way for me to get out of doing everything for him.
I don't want our relationship to end. I really love my boyfriend so much. Aside from his irresponsible behaviours, he is funny, sweet, goofy, loving, open, and kind hearted. He is a truly great person, but he is putting so much weight on me that I am starting to feel depressed. I just can't handle all this; I really was looking for a partnership. I really don't want to spend my entire life this way, and I don't think I can. I am a plan person- I have always set goals for myself and then done what needs to be done to execute them. The part of this all that is really hurting me is that I can't make plans with him in my life. We haven't been able to plan any kind of vacations together, even just to cottage country for the weekend, because his financial situation is always a mess. My family lives in a different province, and the only times we've been able to go see them, my parents bought our plane tickets. I NEED to be able to move forward, to move toward goals and dreams- and when I feel unable to do that, I begin to feel extremely depressed and hopeless.
I'm getting so down as I feel like all the things we want and dream about for the future just aren't possible. A house? I have money saved for a significant down payment, but what- I'm just supposed to want to trust him with that when he can't even pay rent or his half of our internet bill? Kids? Yeah right. Even a dog is scary for me to consider, because I know it will mean I now have a dog and a man to take care of- not a dog that we take care of together.
I'm scared, downhearted, and sad. I don't know what to do anymore. I guess I'm wondering, if you were me, knowing what you know now after having been through maybe many more years of these kinds of situations, would you stay in this relationship? Would you continue down a path that would lead to this type of marriage, or would you cut your losses? Is there any hope for this to change? I have considered us staying together but no longer living together, until he can figure out his own life. Has this worked for anyone else?
Thank you for listening.
Sincerely, Elizabeth
Would You Have Gotten Married IF....?
Submitted by firefly2223 on 05/11/2016.
Please use the edit funcion and break that into paragraphs
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
it was a wall o words :)
firefly that came pouring out of your heart.
Dont ever do long term what your heart doesnt say yes to.
Ok I'll go read your post
Still taking the details in.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Still taking the details in. woo, you're taking on marriage responsibilities, he's taking on none and you're only dating.
Friend,this is a tough thing to say to you in your present situation but he needs to come in your front door like a man, not like a needy boy. No matter what his other great qualities are. You obviously are stretching to do all you can as his problems crop up but...you're not his wife! And wives arent supposed to carry it all, its supposed to be two working to help each other
Hugs,
Now
That's just
Submitted by firefly2223 on
What it feels like!!
Like he moved out of his mom's house and in with me and I became his new mom. And then he had health problems, so I was like.... well what, I'm supposed to kick him out because of this?
But our whole relationship has been me waiting on him to get it together.
Maybe he's just not ready to be equals in an adult relationship and I need to just see and accept that.
The wall
Submitted by firefly2223 on
Sorry about that- I wrote it as paragraphs and then it came out like that.
I think I fixed it though.
Thank you, firefly
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Thank you, firefly
...there are a few wrinkles in the formatting functions on this site.
owed me over $1000 for a
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
owed me over $1000 for a month now. I suddenly went from being someone who has more than enough to cover everything on her budget, and has enough to save ugp for her future plans (paying for rehearsal spaces with my band, enrolling in a real estate course) to being completely unable to even pay for my bus tokens, let alone tend to my personal goals- the REASONS I find motivation to work and save.
Skip the ADHD. This is not a good sign for the future. Money is a language. He's talking to you via his failure to split costs. He's 28, not 15. He's showing you what he'll do in the future, as far as money goes. Ask other women and men on the site who end up paying for everything, while their adult partner coasts. Money is an even clearer language than words. You can love him, and do. you dont have to pay for him. If you consider what I'm saying too harsh, consider that the two of you drastically differ in what you understand that money is.
I don't want our relationship to end. I really love my boyfriend so much. Aside from his irresponsible behaviours, he is funny, sweet, goofy, loving, open, and kind hearted. He is a truly great person, but he is putting so much weight on me that I am starting to feel depressed. I just can't handle all this; I really was looking for a partnership.
I believe what you say. Loving someone doesnt necessarily mean it's a good match for living together.
I think you know yourself, and know your real issues here. These arent even ADHD issues, per se. Trust what your concerns are. They really have reason to exist.
I NEED to be able to move forward, to move toward goals and dreams- and when I feel unable to do that, I begin to feel extremely depressed and hopeless. .... I have considered us staying together but no longer living together, until he can figure out his own life. Has this worked for anyone else? Thank you for listening. Sincerely, Elizabeth
I think living separately might help you in particular have time to learn more about him and about yourself with him.
Perspective
Submitted by firefly2223 on
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I am really struggling with this because I want so much to believe he will change things.
I keep making up excuses for it (or believing his excuses, more like) and hanging on to my hope. It's also easy for me to empathize, because when I was around 25-27, I had a period of financial struggle where I really wasn't very good with my money...
However, it was really only my problem at the time, and I would not have been comfortable making it my significant other's burden.
:(
Maybe living on my own again will help me get some perspective.
Firefly, he may be able to change
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
It doesn't sound like living with you right now is the place for him to begin that change.
What comes out as people talk over their lives on this site, over and over again, is that change comes from within the person, and only happens when the person sees the need for change, on his or her own terms, makes a commitment to change and then the hard part, acts to make changes that stick.
I went through a big spell in my earlier life of thinking that if I loved, tried, and wanted to help, I could fix relationships and fix what I saw were needs in other people Firefly, it never worked. Being so over-invested in the wellbeing of other people, so that I lived to serve and give, but didn't live to grow and thrive myself, was a decoy. It was "easier" I thought, to sacrifice myself on the altar of their need (or what I thought their need was), than it was to value myself and challenge myself to grow up and live more fully. My real work of life in the relationship department had principally to be to get to know myself, in truth, not in versions of me that I had been taught, or that I thought about me; and then, once my soul, mind and actions were more clearly seen, have the courage to say, "OK, now, Now, that you are looking at more truth about yourself, what are you going to do about the difference between how you're living and who you are? And then DO SOMETHING, AND KEEP TRYING.
(Those all caps were for me, LOL. Never hurts to look at the bottom line again.)
If he went straight from living with his mother, at 28, to living with you, he may need to live on his own.
Everything that you write suggests to me that you want a loving relation with someone who will love you as an adult man, who loves you as an adult woman.
That you're not, ultimately, material for being a 24/7 mommy/nurse to a man.
If that's the case, and I bet it is, it will be easier on your heart, easier on his, and it will in its way allow both of you more room, if you change the situation right now, so that you're not doing mother-like things: paying his way, doing all the care, and he's making promises to you and not fulfilling them.
It's just my opinion, not any absolute truth for all people, but I've never seen a situation in which two adults work themselves into a mother/boychild or father/girlchild dynamic, in which the person in the mother or father role could do anything to get the boychild or girlchild to grow up.
I suggest that (if you want this), save the dating and loving part, and you stop the daily housecleaner, payer, mothering that his cascade of needs and promises backed you into.
Hugs!
Living Seperately....Friefly
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm throwing my two bits in here coming from the ADHD side of things. What now or never has said here is some good advise. I just wanted to throw in a couple of this using myself in seeing and correlating but different side to look at your situation and possibly a quick check list to go over and think about...
1. You should be with him for at least 2 to 3 years before you get married. Not a bad idea for anyone but more important with being with someone who has ADHD. This will make sure you line up together and find the places that are acceptable or not. Give it the time to find this out before you jump into anything that will be hard to reverse later. Commit with your heart....not with logistics until you know you can handle it. As you fear....your not sure yet. Not being sure doesn't mean no.....it means...finding out first and waiting until you get there.
2. You should keep your finances completely separate. You might find it odd for me to say this but it's actually (again) not bad advise for couples who walk into a relationship thinking you need to share everything. I've actually talked to bank officers who will say the same thing. Couples who keep separate finances do better and avoid problems comparing that to joint checking accounts etc..
With ADHD....it's not always by intention and mostly not I think that finances get screwed up by mingling them. I found I did fine by myself before I was living with someone....but struggled in trying to keep track of two separate spending habits combined into one. This is a challenges that people with ADHD seem to have (myself included). The simple solution for me...was just to keep everything separate. This may not feel like you are together....but really....that's just finances and nothing else. It saves a lot of headache and problems and it works without a hitch.
3. Understand the challenges that someone with ADHD faces and strategize around those ahead of time. No one likes surprises and getting hit unprepared is where the problems usually are exacerbated. Going in with a plan around things to avoid and knowing what the are will eliminate at least the parts you can predict ahead of time.
4. The biggest problem I see and you hear it repeatedly on the forum is from not knowing about ADHD....and finding out after the fact after the problems are already there. Finding out ahead of time what to avoid.....experiencing it first hand ahead of time and finding how to work around some basic well known issues and having a plan or strategy to work from before you dive in and have all your ducks in a row will greatly reduce these problems in the first place. This is where you are now....if you follow through with finding these things out ahead of time...it will help reduce those down immensly.
5. Don not be an enabler! I repeat....do not. Under any circumstances. Water seeks it's own level and ADHD is like water. There you go.
6. ADHD is not the person. The person doesn't create these problems....the ADHD does if you look at the list of things that are more challenging. Clutter, organization, the need for more structure all fall under that category. Not working, being irresponsible or shirking responsibilities are not included in any inability that having ADHD causes by itself.
Having said that....you need to know what is ADHD and what is not. I agree with NowOrNever and CurUrSelf...There are aspects from your description that do not sound like only ADHD here. Those things...a person has a lot more control or say over and can't be used as any excuse or means to demand anything differently in your expectations.
I think living separately might help you in particular have time to learn more about him and about yourself with him. Not a bad idea at all. I only wanted to add based on what I said...
Living separately while living together under the right circumstances (finances etc....) is also another possibility. Without giving the many reasons other than finances as I said earlier. Being responsible for yourself first...and learning to get a handle on those challenges separately is the goal first.. Once you do that....you can start mingling and introducing these logistical things together. I think that is possible while still living together only if you keep things separate which will allow this to happen. if it's only logistics and nothing else. I think this is very possible. Being personally responsible is difficult while trying to that at the same time with someone else.
Just my two bits from the ADHD side.
J
Wisdom
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Good points, J. #6 is my favorite. I agree with you about separate accounts.
Living separately while living together under the right circumstances (finances etc....) is also another possibility. Without giving the many reasons other than finances as I said earlier. Being responsible for yourself first...and learning to get a handle on those challenges separately is the goal first.. Once you do that....you can start mingling and introducing these logistical things together. I think that is possible while still living together only if you keep things separate which will allow this to happen. if it's only logistics and nothing else. I think this is very possible. Being personally responsible is difficult while trying to that at the same time with someone else.
...from what I've seen about myself in the past, J, I have one caution about the idea of cohabitation, minus the logistics, as a unilateral option for every couple. I suspect you'd say this too, but nevertheless, I want to stress that cohabitation requires sensible logistics, but also requires that both in the couple are up for what their home life will require of them. Not everyone is ready for cohabitation with everyone.
Sometimes one discovers in the process of getting to know someone else, that one is in over one's head.
A friend of mine once remarked that people need to find the degree of proximity or distance between each other, at which both can thrive. I think that's the case, too. I might be a great friend, but a lousy roommate for rooming with that person in particular, while perhaps having a better roommate fit with someone else.
In basic personality, plus life experience, plus self knowledge and developed strengths, certain people ARE OK to enter a relation that has extra labor, care, worry, surprise, challenge etc in it, and a relation with ADHD in it does. But not all are. And something like that is best if it's a matter of choice. From what I've seen so far, the entering partner who doesn't have ADHD, always needs an extra ration of core personality balance, coping skills, self knowledge, needs the flexibility of a gyroscope and, darn it, the physical constitution of an OX. Multiply all those by two if there are kids or eldercare in the home involved, or if there is ADHD plus another or two life challenges in there in the couple, regardless of who brings set #2 of challenges or set #3 into the relation.
I have enormous appreciation for the people with ADHD or without it, who live with it for 10, 20, 40 years, and discover after all that time, enough to begin finally to sort out what was ADHD, what was not ADHD. How long has that diagnosis been around, anyway?
These people, the ones who have ADHD and lived through life not knowing that they had it and so usually acquired some extra personality dings because of having it not knowing tht they have it, or who don't have it and have lived through the upsets, sometimes harrowing challenges, treatment that if done by people without ADHD, would be rude, cold or mean; and unpredictability of ADHD in the household, if they've lived all those years not knowing where the ADHD behaviors were coming from didn't have the option I had, or that young couples today have, to go find out what I needed about myself, in light of ADHD, and begin to learn about ADHD early on, and make a choice for my own wellbeing.
In the case of these long lived relationships in which ADHD had a part, but one or both partners knew nothing about it, there was no chance for either, really, but let me speak up for the person without ADHD in the pair, to ask her or himself, up front, "Am I strong enough and learned enough in coping to be in this relation?" They did not have the option of asking, "Seeing what's going to be involved , do I want this?" Before they entered a relation that they (reasonably, given what they knew or didn't know) thought was something else, in some important pieces of it.
Firefly, if you end up reading this, I admire you very much for asking yourself the honest question, "Do I want this cohabiting relation, if it has these impacts on me?" I have an idea that you will take serious time with the question that you put to yourself, and its' a fine question to ask.
Wisdom
Submitted by kellyj on
"Do I want this cohabiting relation, if it has these impacts on me?" Saying this differently from the perspective that my T has engrained into my thinking...."you should always be able to walk away from any situation no matter who you are with or where you are."
In the context of what he was saying....it doesn't mean having one foot out the door and not to commit. That's what uncertainty causes you to do and that only creates more problems. Being ready...but not leaving..means you thought about it ahead of time and you are ready to leave if things go badly. It's a mind set that goes beyond actually leaving...to staying, being prepared and not feeling trapped or like there is no way out.
Feeling trapped is not by choice. Being ready to leave means....you always have choices and one is to stay anyway. I've found this is so true. It works in reverse. If your ready to leave....you usually end up staying by choice anyway. Almost 99% of the time.
If you feel trapped....all you can do is think of leaving or escaping because you feel your there not by choice.
A couple of things to add to the ADHD and what you said (and I said about learning more about it ahead of time)...... or who don't have it and have lived through the upsets, sometimes harrowing challenges, treatment that if done by people without ADHD, would be rude, cold or mean; and unpredictability of ADHD in the household, if they've lived all those years knowing where the ADHD behaviors were coming from didn't have the option I had, or that young couples today have.....
So true. For example...I'm not a rude, mean cold person. I can be unpredictable and inconsistent but if you apply ADHD to those assessments....it changes this entirely.
I use to interrupt a lot when talking to people but I'm not a rude person? True statement. I'm not rude at all in fact (aide from my potty mouth at times)...I'm actually quite polite. I learned a lot of etiquette from my mother who was big on the "P"'s and "Q"'s. I hold doors, say please and than you and am very courteous in public and with strangers. More so than many people I know.
But I would interrupt people when talking....go off on my long winded mind melting explanations of the universe sometimes with people who didn't care so much for that and not notice, leaves messes and clutter all over the place etc.... Each one of those things is caused by having ADHD. Without the ADHD....I almost certainly would not be the way I am. I learned to be different....but seemingly...could seem to follow through?
The biggest error in my thinking before I was diagnosed came from my own arguing in favor of these things which says " a lot of people don't mind these things at all....in fact....some really enjoy the mind melting long winded conversations and they do the same with me. What's your problem???"
And my own hipocracy in my thinking came from the thing that I hate more than anything at times...."Argumentum Ad Populum" because many think it....therefore it must be right." You can see the irony here without question.
You can always find someone who likes it when you look hard enough in your past. My first college roommate and I got along famously since we were both messy and neither one of us cared......therefore.............
And what I've discovered even more recently....that the friends I have (to this day) who enjoyed the mind melting conversations about the universe...also have ADHD and none of us knew that about each other at the time. I guess in that much....there is honor amongst thieves at least? lol
But none of that has to do with being rude, cold, inconsiderate or otherwise. Those are ADHD things and those things can be managed and changed without question.
I don't interrupt at all any more ( O ).....but it took some work to get there. "0" in this case means....I stop myself from doing it to the point that I don't do it anymore than ALL people I have ever come in contact with and even less in some cases all said and done. I did this because I'm not a rude person and never have been and didn't want to interrupt because I think it is rude to do so myself. I just needed to address the one thing caused from ADHD and this is no longer a problem.
But if a person is actually a rude person in their entirety......that's not from having ADHD. I know some rude people and they are just simply rude and there is not much hope in changing them. These people as far as I know...are just rude and don't have ADHD. One can be/have both as well. Case in point.
Arguementum Ad Populum is an erroneous way of seeing things no matter which side of things your on.( as I did in my past ). It only supports how YOU feel by proving how YOU feel is right by finding others who feel the same way as you but still not everyone. That's only looking at things skin deep and anecdotally when you do that IMHO. What's a step beyond that kind of thinking is where you will find the actual answers you are looking for...again IMHO.
J
So true. For example...I'm
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
So true. For example...I'm not a rude, mean cold person. I can be unpredictable and inconsistent but if you apply ADHD to those assessments....it changes this entirely.
Neither is my husband. He's a phenomenal human being.
It Comes Right Back to Denial Again...NON
Submitted by kellyj on
As I heard this said directly from Melissa Orlov (paraphrasing) "People who come to this forum are usually in some kind of crisis on the internet looking for answers to help save their relationship." Which means....the people with ADHD who aren't having these problems...or ones who have successfully learned to navigate their challenges (which are many...,I know of a number personally and I include myself in there as well)...are not being talked about or represented here. That means..,.,.that Arguementum Ad Populum even more specifically applies here. There is going to be a concentration of only the ones who have problems and that number needs to off set by the ones who don't....which no one knows the actual number out there of those who are doing just fine. Out of the two close friends I have who have ADHD....out of the three of us....I'm the only one who had issues in my marriages and that was mostly from the abuse I received as a child and less to do with ADHD.
Specifically with my wife now.....we have some real challenges specifically around the clutter and messiness....but she has more of an extreme negative reaction herself surrounding this than most people I have either lived with or been with personally. And largely that is due to circumstance beyond my control before we married that created a situation where my house had renters who trashed the place so badly it's taken years to recover from it and I'm just now finally getting back to square one. Before that happened....I did not have the same problems or amount of issues to deal whith than I have in the last two years. It was an aligning of the planets that hit all of our buttons at the same time you might say. But working double duty to ease the tension and anxiety that my wife has in these areas has proven to be resolving it at this time.
And my wife will be the first one to admit....than she's a neat freak and needs to have things in a particular way or she starts to come unglued herself. It's been a problem for her in her past marriage and before that as well. There are those out there who are not this way....that would not have had the same reaction to the situation as she did taking that into consideration.
But all said and done...what Melissa said in the seminar course we completely (again paraphrasing)...she's seen many couples get past living with ADHD successfully and the group represented on the forum is only a small percentage of all couples living with a partner that has ADHD.
My personal opinion from my experience and what I see? The partners who come here with mostly....are fighting the denial of the ADHD and have failed and there partner with it for what ever reason (ADHD or otherwise)...is just refusing to look at it and is not taking it seriously. That is the one and only obstacle as far as I can tell that is standing in the way....not the ADHD itself. Every one of the symptoms can be successfully managed and there is nothing preventing that from happening aside from the willingness to do it and putting in the time and effort to do so. The ones who refuse...have the spouses who show up here and the ones you ending up mostly hearing about. The others who do.....have no need to be here. Arguementum Ad Poplulum....take it or leave it....just my humble opinion and my observation for what its worth. I have no idea the number or percentage on this....but in context to what Melissa said....it didn't sound like the vast majority by any means?
Also....I shooting for the goal post myself and I'm trying to completely eliminate all my symptoms entirely to the 90% mark. I'm doing that for myself not necessarily my wife just so you know. That's the main reason I showed up here in the first place because I expect that much for myself and no one else is pushing me or forcing me to push the bar to that level.
And to the point saying this again...."show me ONE child with ADHD...and I will show you ONE child with ADHD" quoting an ADHD expert in the field who works directly with ADHD children. No two are exactly the same just because they have ADHD.
J
Thanks J
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Your comment on the one problem you see here(forum) being the denial of ADD is very accurate.
What I have learned is my H is not "into" improving anything. He doesn't want to look back at his childhood to see where mindsets come from, he doesn't want to improve in the ADD behaviors that are "annoying"(for lack of right word). He is fine with the "funny" side of ADD but FORGET IT when it is rude, inconsiderate, argumentative, selfish and sarcastic.
Our marriage is going no where and he will tell you it is because of me........and I agree. For the first time ever I (calmly) have boundaries. Had I had them in the first place we would not be here 40 years later ....like this.....and that is not his nor ADD's fault.
There can be no marriage under these circumstances................there can be a relationship( strange one but works for me) and I think that will be the next discussion. I don't think he can see that this has not been a marriage for a very long time, like the last 7 years. Because he has an issue with "seeing" things and "time" it will not be left to him to decide our future. Again, not his fault....again ...mine and I am FINALLY in a good understanding of both our parts and I am only responsible for mine. NO MORE PRETENDING/LYING...... this is not a marriage.....and this is not the end of the world.
I have said to my H "please do this for YOU. If you do it for me that will be one more thing you will hold against me" I can see now that he would be quite happy and fine living by himself and the ADD would never be an issue. To him it's only an issue with me around.(big surprise)......I will gladly fix that.
Thanks, J.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Thanks, J.
I agree that we can't quantify or characterize the lives of people who we dont know anything about.
By the way, about the rudeness, etc., I know you saw that I was making a point about behavior in people who don't have ADHD that would be understood to be rude, but decided to take up your own related issue.
...you don't come across as cold, rude, etc. to me.
..... : D excuse me, my husband, who is elsewhere, is texting the dickens out of me
... I'm back. Yes, I think denial sits at the center of a lot of relationship trouble. Underneath that often is fear.
NON and Zapp....What You May Never Know Exactly
Submitted by kellyj on
....and at the crux of the problem with having ADHD. I've had this said, or read...or explained to me in enough different ways to know exacly how to say this that I think is very accurate. (not just my opinion )
On top of that....I know what it was like before I started medication (Adderall)...and then now after I've been on it for 8 or more years. I can give you many different ways to relate to this in a similar way that will not be that far from being extremely accurate.
Just one examples: Take your hand....and squeeze it very hard repeatedly by open and closing it into a fist. It's very easy to do this for about 30 seconds and then your hand will begin to drain of the ability to function as it did when you first started. If you did this for an entire minute straight or more....you start to lose the ability to control the moment of your fingers and the strength start rapidly bleeding out of you hand until eventually....it just freezes up and you can no longer make it open and close any more.
Anyone can do this and you know what I am talking about.
Or...for those who have carried a back pack and hiked a long distance with any wieght in the pack. Again....at first it feels like no problem and not all that difficult to do. After 5 miles of this...it feels like you can barely take another step without a great deal of effort. Every pound you add to your pack....will make this effect worse exponentially. Again....anyone who has ever had this experience will know exactly what I'm saying.
Having ADHD...is like having that extra weight in your back pack all the time comparing it to everyone else....who has no back pack and no extra weight at all. This works out fine if you are walking on level ground side by side even with the extra effort that you just get use to and you can keep up with everyone else as long as it's on flat level ground.
But now....if you need to climb up a hill.....that's where this difference really shows up. The extra load and effort creates a situation where you are going to reach that place in the hand closing example...sooner that everyone else and you will begin to fade or lose ability to keep up at the same pace as most other people and they will begin to overtake you and you will begin to fall behind due to the extra load your carrying. For everyone else....you might look back and say "come'on...get moving...your falling behind".....based on the ease and fatique level you are feeling. On level ground....there wasn't a problem even for someone with ADHD to stay up and keep the pace. This only happens when you start to climb up hill yet for most anyone else....this hill does not present much change in the amount of effort it takes and you can still keep the same pace as before and not get close to that place where you hand freezes up and will not work anymore.
So in your daily experience....you can climb those hills with a little extra effort....but it really not that much more difficult and you never run out of steam in order to continue...uninterupted and keep moving forward without a need to stop and rest at all. That's all you have ever known and everyone else will agree. The only people who seem to be falling behind when hill climbing in that scenario....would be the people with ADHD.
If you took the example of closing your hand repeatedly into a fist for a minute or more and your hand cramps up and stops working.....this is the effect that ADHD poses to the brain and excecutive function that creates this gap in ability when put under stress. On level ground....the effort is only slightly more for a person with ADHD to keep up. Under stress up hill....the amount of effort required to stay up goes up exponentially until you run out of mental energy to continue at the same pace and keep up with everyone else. And to do so under those circumstances.....requires a disproportionate amount of exertion and effort if you are requied to keep up anyway. It literally feels like brain fatique just like the hand example.
It all has to do with capacity ...not intelligence or capability.
So what is not "HARD" for you or even "EASY" in that respect. Can be anywhere from a little harder....to extremely difficult under the extra stress or load this puts on the brain to keep functioning at the same consistent level. That's where the inconsistency comes from. It's not from lack of will or desire or not wanting to in that respect....it's the same when your hand runs out of the capacity to move and function anymore no matter how hard you try and keep clenching your fist. It's exactly the same thing but we hit that place much sooner than you do.
If you think about lung capacity and holding your breathe....it's the same thing. Everyone else might be able to hold your breathe for 2 minutes (say) without too much problem. For a person with ADHD....you hit the limit at 1 1/2 minutes and then you need more oxygen and there is simply nothing you can do about that difference. From the 1 1/2 minute mark to 2 minutes....a person with ADHD begins to lose control, black out etc...while your still going strong to 2 minutes without much effort. (making up those numbers of course)
To say this again in the same way you may have already heard this before.....what's easy for you and always has been...is much harder and takes more effort for someone with ADHD. Capacity level....not ability level.
So in just the areas of staying focused and changing directions under load....the consistency ability....and the endurance capacity begin to get compromised.......and where the difference begins to show and be noticable. When the load remains level or managable.....that capacity level never reaches that critical point and you appear no different than anyone else including the excertion it takes to stay there. That's why it never seems to be the same from one situation to another and sometimes it's easy....and sometimes...it's not.
And that's why....(we) ADHD'ers appear so resistant and stubborn when trying to change or do things differently. It's taken a lifetime of learning ways around this in varying methods and techniques in order to compenstate and avoid hitting that ciritcal over load point in order to function and try and remain consistent as much as possible. That effort in itself....takes more out of you. As soon as you mess with that fragile balance and try to change it.....it will cause a complete disruption in that fragile line and cause you to go over it. When that happens....it causes a major malfuntion and the effort it now takes skyrockets as if the hill just got twice as steep to climb as before.
While meantime....you looking at the same hill....checking your exertion level....and possibly only breathing a little harder going...."this..just isn't all that much more difficult....why are you not keeping up.
"Must be your just lazy and don't like to climb up hills because that's what it looks and feels like to me since I'm sitting here climbing the same hill you are. You aren't going to sit there and tell me that it's all that hard to do the same thing I'm doing at the same time right beside you. I'm not buying it." As one possibly way of thinking or seeing this?
And even if you already know this....you still don't have that expereince to tell you just HOW much more effort...or just HOW MUCH more difficult it is in comparison. That's the part.....you will never know for sure? And you will never have a way to gage this or know how to gage that for someone with ADHD. It's pretty much....that simple.
And....looking at this from that perspective. There is literally....nothing YOU can do to make that different or change it for a person with ADHD....since.....there is nothing WE can do to change that within ourselves until you do things to work around that imovable obstacle that NO ONE has any control over.
I repeat.....NO ONE (aside from God?) has the ability to change or control that aspect of having ADHD. To think that you can do anything there ( from the non-ADHD side) is thinking you have the same power as God. It's why naging, coersion, manipulation or any method that you can think of will do nothing because it's not possible in the first place. You can't change that and nothing will expecially someone who doesn't have it and thinks they can.
And to think this will just go away or change on it's own on the ADHD side of things (by praying to God?)....is totally wishful thinking without a hope or a prayer ...or snow balls chance in Hell that this will happen by misbelieving or thinking that this might happen, is possible...or true.
Both ways in those two approachs coming from either side of this..... thinking...... or beleiving..... that this is even possible are just empty wishful thinking and bleiving that a prayer will save a snowball in Hell from melting.... This will NEVER EVER HAPPEN because it's not possible in the first place unless you think you have the power of God which no one has. Plain and simple.
But....ADHD is the #1 most fixable, and work around able mental health disorder on the map. It is totally possible to work around every symptom completely even up to 100% and that is totally possible but....it takes that initial effort...and getting up off your ass in the first place...and put that effort into it and the willingness to go through a lot of work to get there. There is no two ways around this and that is our(ADHD'ers) only choice in getting there. That's the one and only caveat that I can see and the statistics with back me up on that.
The failure right from the get go...on either side of this...is not having that thinking firmly established in your mind and thinking anything differently.
It doesn't matter which side your on either. If you can't get that part throught your head (or one does and the other one doesn't) you are only part of the problem and not part of the totally doable solution and you are the one who is standing in the way of progress.
What a person with ADHD needs from a non-ADHD'er...is that understanding and the compassion to go along with it....and then the support (not the hands on trying to manage or control it) to help (and support) a person with ADHD to go through this process...not to do it for them. Doing it for them is what happens and that you know already....doesn't do anything to change this situation and leaves you right where you are indefinitely. That's literally....all you can do. Don't do it for them and encourage them with your support instead. Getting angry? Is demotivational and only makes a person with ADHD not want to do it period. That's your answer right there.
And what the person who has ADHD needs to give to the non- ADHDer...is a huge amount of latitude and consideration in the benefit of the doubt..... that this kind of support and understanding I'm talking about....is a royal pain in the ass to give in this situation.......and NO ONE (us ADHD'ers) deserves this.... or is entitled to this kind of extra support and effort to start with...from the get go...... and ... You should be thanking your lucky stars...and your as lucky as Hell .... in ever hoping to find ANYONE.... willing to give this to you, let alone....actually finding someone that special and gracious in the first place. To find anyone that loves you that much....is something that needs to be firmly rooted and reminded on a daily basis with appreciation and thankfulness instead of .....irritation, mule headedness... argumentative-ness and denying it instead which is what happens. That needs to stop immediately...all of it!!!! And then make the effort to go through the process of gaining control of all the symptoms which is the one thing in all of this.....this is totally possible to do. (That part....goes without saying on the non-ADHD side of things)
That's the deal as far as I can see it:)
J
J - have you ever watched any
Submitted by Exasperated on
J - have you ever watched any of Dr. Russell Barkley's videos on ADHD? He did a seven year in-depth study on ADHD and explains it so well. Your description lines up well with what Dr. Barkley explains about it. He explains the executive function and the problem with the frontal lobe of the brain. He says it's not what you know, it's USING what you know that is the problem.
As the non-ADHD partner, these are things I wish I had understood from the beginning that would have made a huge difference. I also wish my husband had understood that as well. He has never been tested for ADHD, so we don't have a definite diagnosis, but I KNOW he's ADHD, and I can't believe I didn't realize that sooner. EVERYTHING fits. His brother was diagnosed with it YEARS ago. I remember how relieved his wife was to get this diagnosis because it helped her to understand a lot about his behavior that could have been interpreted as moral failings.
I guess the reason I didn't consider ADHD in our case was because my husband had a drinking problem for about 35 years of our marriage. His drinking wreaked great havoc on our lives, needless to say. All of the ADHD behavior was present all along, but I was mainly focusing on the alcoholism being responsible for all of the problems. After a few attempts over the years to stop drinking, he finally made the decision to go into a long-term treatment program, because he had reached the point where he KNEW he would die if he didn't stop. He was in his 50s at the time.
When he came out of treatment, for the first time, I saw genuine humility in him. He WAS a changed man. He hasn't had a drink since, and he's 67 now. But while he has avoided alcohol, he still has reasons to take certain pain medications. His brother is the same way. They lust for certain kinds of drugs that make them feel better. They do have physical pain that they deal with, but I know they get something more out of those drugs than just relief of physical pain. My husband has been going to a methadone clinic for years now. It helps him with motivation.
i believe my husband has been trying to self-medicate his whole life, but never quite understood what it was he was trying to treat. It now seems obvious to me he has been trying to treat his ADHD that he didn't even know he had. He's also left-handed, which adds to his being "unconventional". He was the son of a preacher which made him always feel like he was under the spotlight, and his ADHD made him appear to be more of a rebellious, "unconventional preacher's son". He was always searching for something he could take to easily make himself feel better, and to help him cope. I could be wrong, but I also think this all contributed to him coming across as defensive and seeing everyone else's flaws but his own.
What finally made the light come on and made me realize that ADHD explains so much if our problems is that shortly after my husband got out of treatment for his drinking, my uncle died and I was left with a lot of money. I wanted to pay off all of our debts and have experienced financial planners handle the rest of it for me. My husband had different ideas. I've always been a pushover, very easily manipulated by being made to feel guilty, and an enabler of the worst degree. So I reluctantly allowed him to do the investing. Needless to say, it's ALL gone, and we're back to being in financial peril where we can barely pay our bills and we have no money saved for the future. My contribution to our problems has been my gross lack of boundaries. I have always feared the fallout from him if I dared to stand up for myself, more than the consequences of letting him have his way. So like a trained puppy, I've always stayed inside the electric fence he put around me. I guess you can say that I have always stayed inside HIS boundaries.
But as I said, knowing about ADHD helps me to have more grace for him because I KNOW he's not a bad person, and he is intelligent and has many talents. I told him that I believe he has ADD, and when I showed him some of Russell Barkley's videos he cried. I have asked him if he thought he should go and get a diagnosis and then be put on the proper medications to help him. He's skeptical about the medications he might be given. He feels he's just about tried it all himself over the years, and doesn't believe that some of the drugs they use to treat ADHD are sustaining enough. He feels that they may help a little bit at first, but then lose their effectiveness over time. He seems to think he knows all of the answers when it comes to drugs - he's had a lifetime of experimenting. I sometimes wonder if he's messed up his chemistry from years of drugs and alcohol to the point where nothing will work. I've read on this blog that exercise can also be helpful. I think Dr. Barkley mentioned something in one of his videos about some patches, and time-release medications. I wonder if something like that would work for him.
Exasperated....Thanks For the Input Here
Submitted by kellyj on
Most of what you said about your H I can (or could place in myself as well to a certain degree). And no...I haven't seen Dr Barkley's videos but I certainly will now just to compare.
What you described is so telling to me now. I really wanted to figure this out on my own and force myself to figure this out from "within" so to speak and most everything I said I discovered "in" myself with some help in pointing these things out first....and then go looking for them. It was nice to here that what I said lined up with the experts....it gives me a good indicator that I'm on the right track:)
And the thing about self medicating? I've looked hard at this within myself and looked at my past behavior in trying to find things that calmed my anxiety which is definite feature with ADHD I think. What you said about your H being the son of a preacher is also really telling in that....my drug of choice in the past when searching for something like that in my own way was Marijuana instead of alcohol since alcohol had so many negative side effects and those negative effects outweighed the benefit for and the impact that had to me well being and my life where Marijuana had almost none in comparison. Except the illegality aspect. I speculating that this might prevent someone from going in that direction?
And not to belabor self medicating any further or sound like I'm advocating Pot smoking which I'm not....I found that Marijuana actually only helped reduce the anxiety but exacerbated the ADHD symptoms. I recently did a self test on this to prove this to myself since Marijuana is now legal where I live and you can buy it anywhere or grow it yourself. I stopped using it years ago since I didn't know I had ADHD and I found the negative side effects were just making me lazy which was not the desired effect at all for ADHD. But in relation to what you were saying and your H's search for something to help him....I can actually see in the same way I discovered....that it might have served a purpose....but with those same negative side effects I also discovered myself. Just an interesting correlation that I can understand from my experience. He should not be too hard on himself since that anxiety can really cause a lot of discomfort and stress. Neither one of us knew?
And just to reiterate something that you said within context to this....until you understand what is happening or why....it's really hard or difficult to know what I just said. It took a while in figuring this out....but now I actually see and feel it and why I can be more confident in what I'm saying is true. Not from reading in a book or watching a video...but actually experiencing it, differentiating what I feeling and identifying it in real time.
It's why it was nice to hear that what you understood from Dr Barkley's videos seemed to line up with my own personal experience and personal observation as well. Thanks again for the feedback
J
J - if you google Dr. Russell
Submitted by Exasperated on
J - if you google Dr. Russell Barkley you will find many good videos. A lot of the shorter videos are excerpts taken from some of the longer videos. They are all good, and very helpful for both those with ADHD, and those trying to understand people with ADHD. At one point he mentions that in his practice, when his patients realize what has been going on all their lives and why, many of them cry and grieve over lives lost, and he then has to help them through that...
Actually it's best to go to YouTube and do a search for him there...
This is a good one to start with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqMOREpXCBc
I Did Go Through That as Well
Submitted by kellyj on
The grieving part. It happened in stages at different times (and to a much lessor degree it still does at times) But you get use that experience and the mini grieving you have to do when you realize the past is not what you thought it was with a different explanation. I've had my moments too.
The thing about that is....you do eventually get over it and that's when things start feeling better.
My T helped me through that and I said to him once "I feel like such an idiot...I've wasted so much time.."
He said...."it doesn't matter how long it takes to get there....only that you get there. And once you do.....you stop wasting time and everything feels better."
I'm in 100% agreement with him now. At the time....it didn't feel that way. That's part of the grieving. Yes....I concur.
Thanks for reminding me of this....sometimes I have to do that during those brief mini grieving sessions each time I see something I missed. Those get fewer and farther between (and smaller) all the time:)
J
J, I've had to grieve too,
Submitted by Exasperated on
J, I've had to grieve too, being the non-ADHD partner. As I mentioned in another post, I've felt that I've had to give up the person I really am, and that in all the years of my marriage I've felt like I haven't really lived, but have merely existed. But thank goodness for awareness and acceptance, which both help tremendously.
I feel like on my end I understand his behavior more, taking ADHD into consideration. But I do wish he could get to the place where he understands and appreciates how difficult it has been for me all these years as well. Sometimes I just have to tell myself, "It is what it is"...
Communication is one of the hardest things we have to deal with, but I haven't given up... I believe marriage is for life, ("in sickness and in health"), so we have to make the best of our circumstances... (not that I haven't had many times when I've felt like walking away). One day at a time...
I'm glad things have gotten better for you over time.
E...I'm Sorry That You Have to Do This
Submitted by kellyj on
I can definitely relate with the feeling. It seems that intangible thing that I can't seem to find a way to understand with my wife even though I see it in her at times but don't really know what to do? Since this is not my first marriage....I've been given a second chance to correct the mistakes of my past but this one aspect that you mentioned with being with your H sounds like a familiar experience. I want to say it's not as bad for my wife since I was already diagnosed, medicated and had been through therapy to know enough to be paying attention to this...but it still seems to be there possibly to a lessor degree. I've tried to give more in that respect...than it feels like I would normally do and that has seemed to make a difference. More than anything....I'm trying to read in between the lines of what my wife says at times to hear what she is really asking of me (aside from just the words she saying). I have discovered from this that many times....all she wants is attention paid to her and I'm trying to remind myself of that each time she comes to me with anything to say. That does seem to work and she is responding to me with more smiles and appreciation which tells me I'm on the right track.
I wish I could say something to your H for him to see these things but if I remember back in past times in my life....you could have said it...and it wouldn't have meant anything to me.
I can tell you one thing if it's any consolation to you. The thing that I said in my comment about thanking your lucky stars that you can find someone who can be with (us) and showing thanks and appreciation even when your struggling I really do mean. Those aren't just words and I'm doing that with my wife as much as possible. Thanks and appreciation goes a long way in showing that you know the effort it takes on your end.
And Thank you again for the feedback....it helps when I'm trying to remind myself of this very thing:)
J
PS...Thanks for the tip on the videos....I've read some of his articles and am really interested in hearing him talk about this:)
Hi Exasperated...You see it.....
Submitted by c ur self on
You say it so well...Our spouse's direct our lives, they direct our paths in this life...There must be unity to what ever degree is possible w/ our unique chemistries and that falls on us for the most part....
Awareness and Acceptance has been the magic bullet for me also, and a difficult one to grasp indeed...To accept the limitations that my dreams and wishes will always just be fleeting thoughts because of the effects of add on my life...Yes, I said that right....On my life:)
I too must be at peace; I'm not a victim; I love my wife....It's just the circumstances of my reality....
With boundaries; refusing to enable, and leaning on Wisdom; my life is a blessed one!....I just thought I would say Hello, I read the 4 or 5 entries you made on the forum and I just wanted to say Amen to your feelings....
Blessings
C
Barkley's good
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
ADHD people kept posting links to him on another site, with appreciation. I think he has a clearinghouse site, with links to a lot of his lectures
J totally agree....
Submitted by Zapp10 on
with all you said in this post.
Where I am at is... what I know about my spouse is he has NEVER been one to see any merit in looking at oneself. I am not so sure this is ADD related. After what he has read and learned concerning ADD, the part of doing your "homework" is just not going to happen(like I am not surprised LOL). I find this interesting as the ADD itself seems to interfere with his own intellect that we both need to work on our parts in this undertaking. The idea that the marriage is on the line he sees as truly my fault. Pride? Ego? WHAT? I am stumped at how to sort this issue out. And I am to the point of enough, no longer.
My H also an extremely hard time with being honest with himself and with me. This has plagued us the whole marriage. And I am thinking that may not be ADD either. It is important to me to not "blame" ADD wrongly, however since he doesn't want it to be him period where anything is concerned there is no way to "solve" this situation.
We are 4 years down the road since the diagnosis. Progress? Not so sure but considering I moved upstairs 7 months ago I am thinking no.
And I will be honest here....I am SICK and TIRED of spending my time learning EVERYTHING I can about ADD and its effect on him and on me......and he does nothing. In 7 months he has not COME to ME once with info, something he'd like try, how he would like to try, something he just "realized" or "understood".......NOTHING!!!!!!! ....who's the one in denial here? uh....I believe that's me.
More Wisdom
Submitted by kellyj on
NowOrNever: "Sometimes one discovers in the process of getting to know someone else, that one is in over one's head."
And the first initial response that everyone has is....."I can't do this. It's too hard" Because that's what it feels like.
In this case....what it feels like is not true. Thinking you can't....is where you stop trying.
Bob Dylan: " as I have come to discover in life.....expect the worst to happen....and it will."
Me: ( be the ball )
J
The point I was making with the OP's situation in mind
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
.... otherwise said:
" Better to aim at the moon than to shoot into a well"
-- wisdom from a fortune cookie years ago.
Would I have gotten married
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Would I have gotten married to my ADHD husband if I had known?
No way. I would have run for the hills....and you should, too.
That's kind of
Submitted by firefly2223 on
the general idea I have gotten from reading around the site- that there can be a lot of love, but it's an unnecessarily difficult life. I really don't think I'm up to the task :(
It is more than just an
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
It is more than just an unnecessarily difficult life, it's downright painful. and when you're around normal couples you will feel even worse as you're constantly reminded about what should be normal.
The irresponsible behaviors, the money issues, job issues, child care issues, and on and on.
Just on a lighter note: Recently, I've had to tell my H that he's not allowed to use any of the unchipped coffee mugs. Why? Because in the last four weeks, he's chipped eight cups. This isn't anything new. He's horrible with things. He's too rough, doesn't pay attention, knocks things over, etc. This may seem like a minor thing, and it is. He's also broken 3 phones, 3 tablets, 2 laptops, in the last two years. He's also broken one of my laptops and one of my tablets. He's also broken the tablet that our son gave him (he broke that within two days of receiving it.)
Of course, his solution is always, "just buy another." He doesn't want to deal with the guilt of breaking these things, so if another is purchased right away, then he doesn't have to think about it.....and he doesn't have to go without.....and he doesn't have to try to be more careful.
I have some new dishes. I've told him....YOU CAN'T use these. He laughed because he understands why. If I see him using a coffee cup that doesn't have a chip, I take it away. I know this sounds mean, but I'm sick of only having a few left without big chips out of them.
Part of this is because his mom was too easy with him. When he'd break things while growing up, his mom would say, "that's ok, I wanted to buy a new one anyway." What an idiot. She didn't want to take the time to teach him to be careful with things, and she didn't want him to "feel bad," about breaking so many things. And, he did break so many things.
We can't use the freezer part of our French Door Fridge because H has broken the tracks. If you pull the door out, you can't get it back in. he broke that by leaning on the drawer while getting things out. He's broken off cabinet doors in the kitchen by being too rough. Often it's because he leans on things (like leans on a lower cabinet door while reaching in)
these are just material things. I know. But day after day it gets unbelievably annoying and expensive. He used to love having a manual transmission sports car, but he's so rough with the gear shift that I had to put my foot down and insist that he drive an automatic transmission.
Hello
Submitted by inspissate on
Hello Firefly,
I am a long-term reader in the forum [28F], and I was particularly touched about your situation because I am in your same age bracket, and same situation
- 4 years later and still worrying! Honestly when I read your message, I almost thought I was reading my own story!
If you go into your account settings you can enable the "personal contact form" through the forum - if you activate that I will be able to communicate through direct message.
I would really like to give you my insights but I am not too comfortable with the public messaging because my ADHD-SO knows I'm in this forum.
I will now reply to some of your other comments here.
My best wishes and strength to you.
I have
Submitted by firefly2223 on
enabled the personal contact form so we can talk more.
Thank you for your response, I think it would be nice to have some one to one conversation and support from someone in a similar situation.
Marrying someone with ADD
Submitted by JAM on
Run, don't walk. So much energy needs to be expended living with someone who has ADHD that it sucks the very life out of you.
I think you should take some time away......
Submitted by c ur self on
What you are feeling sounds more like maternal instincts than a healthy love for a grown man. Just because someone is in a 28 year old body, doesn't make them a man....Counseling for yourself would be good right now....
C
I think you are right
Submitted by firefly2223 on
I think counseling probably would be great right now; I've had therapy in the past for other emotional issues and it really helped me gain clarity. But I'm in no place to afford it right now.
I might have to just take some time and live on my own again.
Wow, firefly, you have a lot
Submitted by Shalott on
Wow, firefly, you have a lot on your plate that you didn't ask for. When I was your age, I had been married to my H for a few years and, for the most part, some stuff was good and the stuff that wasn't seemed tolerable. We dated for 7 years before we married and lived together for 4 of those 7 years, so I really felt like I knew him and knew what I was getting into. But what I didn't know, and what he didn't know, was that he had ADHD. We didn't find that out until 2 years ago. In the beginning, he had quirks, but I chalked them up to immaturity, or just stuff he wasn't good at that I could handle. Now, after 25 years and two kids and all the things that come with a long-term relationship, those quirks are now big, big problems. You're at the beginning of your relationship and you already have big problems that are unlikely to change without serious hard work from you and your BF. Are you sure you want a lifetime of that? I'm sorry I'm not more encouraging. I wish you well.
Shalott
run don't walk
Submitted by dvance on
Hello there and welcome!
I have been married for 20 years to an ADHD man. Lived together for a year before that. I am telling you it won't get better. You will gradually do more and more and more in the guise of being helpful/wanting your space to be clean and tidy/because you're better at it (whatever the IT might be) and your resentment will grow and grow. You already have a skewed relationship and that is going to be darn near impossible to undo. The maternal dynamic that happens is so opposite what a decent marriage ought to be. The lunch thing you said hit me especially. For a long time if I did not pack DH a lunch, he just didn't eat and came home grumpy and headachy and not feeling well. So I started packing him a lunch along with the two kids. Helpful, right? Not that much work since I am already doing two for my two boys, right? Well guess what--after a few weeks of this, it came out that he didn't like what I packed and wasn't eating the lunches anyway. I found several uneaten lunches in his truck. So my helpfulness--not wanted/unwelcome and I felt crummy when I found out. So with regard to your guy--if he doesn't eat, that's on him. A grown man should be able to feed himself. If he comes home not feeling well, why do you have to take care of him? What are his symptoms? If he is throwing up, he doesn't need you around for that--leave him to it. Close the bedroom door and carry on. I can tell you his apologies will always be sincere but nothing will change. Sorry to be so harsh but it's the reality many of us on this board live with. Seriously--get out now before his financial mess drags you down more. My credit is totally shot and DHs is fine...because everything is in my name and when he has been unemployed it's my credit that suffers.
You have two hugs red flags--the money and the chores. Think ahead 10 years--do you want to spend the next ten years cleaning up after a grown man?? Can you envision the state of your finances if this continues for the next ten years? If I had known what life would be like 20 years in I would NEVER have gotten married. NEVER.
Would I have stayed?' ------after what I know now......no.
Submitted by dedelight4 on
You have said some things that are red flags imo. What he's doing,now he will continue to do if married. It doesn't get better with marriage. The responsibility of marriage seems to exacerbate any issues of ADHD, especially if not being aggressively treated. To answer your question,........if I knew then what I know now, NO....I would not have married this man. II've lost too much of myself and self respect trying to help someone who didn't believe he needed help and it's cost both of us greatly.
The help we truly needed we never got, and now I have to help myself heal, whether he likes it or not. That sounds really cold, but in my case it literally came down to my survival.
would you have stayed IF
Submitted by Zapp10 on
no
This is my first time to post
Submitted by Exasperated on
This is my first time to post anything here although I've been following this site for several years. I hate to be negative, but based on my personal experience I would urge you to heed the red flags you are seeing. I too, saw many red flags before saying "I do", and after almost 40 years in this marriage I can tell you your boyfriend isn't likely to change, and things will get worse. If you want a partnership, goals, a man you can depend on, an organized home, financial security, and good credit, then muster the courage to end the relationship while you can. It won't be easy, and he won't easily let you go. Don't stay with him out of guilt or pity, which is what I did. if you want to lose who you are, feel like an alien living in his world (a world which you won't be able to relate to), feel like you're not even on his priority list, be blamed for the shambles of your lives (yes, it will become in shambles),feel like you're serving a prison sentence with no hope of parole, and give up all of your dreams, then stay with him. It's notthat he's a bad person. He's not. But he has a handicap that is challenging to live with. It might have helped if I had known up front that ADD was the reason for the behavior that meant no sense to me for practically my entire marriage. The light finally came on several years ago, and I realized what the problem was. Everything fit. Knowing it's the way his brain is wired has allowed me to have more grace for him, but for the past 40 years I have felt like I haven't lived... I've merely existed in a world that made no sense to me and in which I felt powerless.
Probably not
Submitted by MLOwl on
I'm 31 as well, married for 7 years. TBH I probably wouldn't have gotten married if I knew how hard it was going to be. SO many of the ADD/ADHD stories are the same and I think it's reasonable to assume things will remain as they are or progress within a spectrum. Though there are some stories of therapy/meds that make for slight improvement. My DH doesn't take responsibility for himself, so I have no hope for that. In fact in the one couples therapy session we went to all he did was point out what he thought was wrong with me. After the session the Psychologist mentioned to me how hard she had to work to get him to see how he had played a role in things, and how challenging that personality type is. I agree. I'm now trying to recoup the profound loss in self esteem I've endured in this relationship.
No, I would not have married
Submitted by lisa84 on
No, I would not have married him. As someone who has ADD myself, and 4 kids with it, I would tell you to run away from the person who has no awareness of and is not treating their symptoms. I would think long and hard about it even if they were treating their symptoms. As I am in the process of divorcing my H of 12 years, I am all too aware of my own symptoms and realize how difficult my kids and I would be, for a normal man to live with, so I'm not very hopeful about any future relationships.
I was just talking to my sister the other day and her boyfriend seems to have many of the same problems as my H. I gave her a lot to think about before marrying him. I told her one thing I've learned is, you can't change a person, no matter how hard you try. And with an ADHD person, you waste many years trying and it will just wear you out, make you resentful, and take a toll on your own health. Another thing I told my sister is, you will eventually reach the point where you are done. Whether it's 2 yrs down the road, 10, 20, 30+ yrs down the road, you will eventually reach the point where you can't take it anymore. It's better to get out while your sanity and health are still intact, before you've invested your whole life in a person who will probably never ever see the pain and trouble they cause you. You will never know lonliness like that of being married to someone who unknowingly spent your whole marriage causing you tremendous pain, but they are unable to see it or feel any empathy towards you, all they can do is have their own pity party and act like you are a big meany for not wanting to mother them any longer.
I don't care how funny or charming they are. If you want to give them a chance, stay friends. Live seperately, don't put yourself in the position of relying on him for anything, no rescuing him from anything, no mothering. See if he changes and wait a long time to see if it lasts. Make sure he's doing it for HIM and not YOU, otherwise he's just manipulating you. But be prepared to move on when there is no change. I am a very introspective person and always knew I was "different", but I was completely unaware of my ADD the symptoms, and how it affected others, for about the first 30 yrs of my life. And I still don't have control over my symptoms and it feels like running uphill with a semi truck chained to you.
Understand that this is difficult for him, but also understand that a marriage to an untreated ADHD person (particularly a man), is not a marriage. It's child adoption. And if you ever have a child together, you won't have one child, but two. You will have the burden of trying to drag them through life and make them be who they should be and do what they should do, just like you would a child. You will gain a child and lose yourself. You will become a resentful, bitter hag. Get out now and let him work on himself, support him from afar.
An Update on Where I'm At Since Original Post
Submitted by firefly2223 on
Because so many of you have taken the time to write such thoughtful responses, I wanted to provide an update so you know that I have been reading all of your thoughts and taking them all into consideration.
The financial situation that my SO's irresponsible actions got us into had been and continue to be stressful for me, as we are still not back to an ideal place- and that is very uncomfortable for me. But on a positive note, we have talked about it- a lot. I haven't hidden my stress or unhappiness about this from him on any level, as I might usually try to put on a bright face- instead I have been very clear that the way things have been operating between us is over, and if we are going to stay together, nothing like that can ever happen again.
He has been very receptive and agreeable. Never again. I think he understands now how important this is, and I've decided to give him a little time to get it right. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt a little bit, whether that is foolish or not, but if there is one thing I am absolutely certain of with my SO, it's that he truly wants me to be happy and my happiness is very important to him.
We've discussed a loose plan for the future, it's not as solid as I would like and as I hope our plans will move toward, but it's at least something to move toward and hope for change.
He's also made some appointments to look into getting treatment and medication to help him manage some of his symptoms if indeed he does end up diagnosed with ADHD (which we are both certain he will be). He agrees and also feels that these symptoms and his inability to manage them are having a negative impact on his life and he seems motivated to get some help- not just for me, but for him. So I am hopeful that things can improve.
The more we have talked between the two of us about the possibility of him having ADHD and the symptoms, it has also made it easier for me to kindly but firmly point some of the things out that normally I would let slide (being interrupted, feeling like he's looking at other things and distracted when I'm talking). He's been responsive and I've actually seen him trying to manage these things- moments when he starts to interrupt and then stops himself, or moments when I'll say something and he'll change the subject without acknowleging what I've said- then realize he's done it, and stop and return to what I said. It's small stuff, but him showing awareness and concern about it all makes me feel like there can be hope.
Because I have decided to give him this chance and work on things with him for at least a little while longer, I am just focusing on the positives of him- and fortunately, he has many, many amazingly positive qualities. I feel lucky that while we struggle with certain aspects of our partnership, my SO is not at all cold or unattentive to me in terms of verbal affection, snuggles, compliments- he always makes me feel seen and valued, even though I can sometimes feel taken for granted because of these other things.
He has endless energy to play for hours with my niece and nephew, and I feel like although he might not be the best with cleaning and everything- if he could get the financial stuff in order, he would be the most amazing father. He has the kindest, most loyal and loving heart I've ever known.
So, the conclusion I've come to for now is to give him a little more time. It's always bound to be an adjustment living with someone, and him having ADHD that isn't currently being treated is bound to make our adjustments even more challenging than the average person. But I believe he can and perhaps most importantly, truly wants to make these things right- and understands why they currently aren't.
Thank you so much for your responses and support. I am glad this community is here for us as we begin taking the steps to manage this.
Firefly, I'm so cheered by your post
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
It was so great to read that you two have had those conversations. Kudos to him for his tackling things. I hope he goes for whatever professional help can do for him and your relationship. Kudos to you for your clarity of heart. Hugs to you both. Please stay in touch.
Now
Children
Submitted by jd9821 on
What about children? That's one of the first things you have to answer for yourself in a situation like this. What do you want from them? For them? Do you want to risk having children with an individual like this? Keeping someone like this close is a risk you have to fully accept. You don't want to make a martyr out of your life.
endless energy for niece and nephew
Submitted by dedelight4 on
My husband did this also with HIS nephews and other kids, which I thought would make him good father material. It doesn't, and didn't. With our own daughters, He didn't have time for them, once responsibilities took over his brain. He couldn't handle it, and many can't, including women (mothers) who have this disorder.
Ditto. I saw my H with his
Submitted by lisa84 on
Ditto. I saw my H with his nephew's and we even did some babysitting together, before we got married. I just knew he would be a great dad. Even after our first child was born, he said he wanted to be a better father than he had. Then he went on to leave most of the child rearing to me. The day we brought our son home from the hospital, he went to his friend's house. He would rather spend all his free time working, with friends or on his ipad. Yet he tells people how easy kids are to take care of. Duh, or course they're easy to take care of when your wife does all the caretaking! His idea of spending time with our son when he was little, was playing video games while he watched. But "he wanted to". He never so much as took the kids to the park even once by himself. If I asked him to go with us, he moaned and whined and threw a tantrum. With our last child I mostly labored all alone and was alone most of the hospital stay. He was supposed to be home with our other kids, so my frail mother would not have to watch them the whole time. I found out he was at work the whole time. That was more important to him than me, our newborn, and our other kids.
When I found out I was pregnant with our last, I was devastated. I couldn't imagine raising another kid by myself, while I already had my hands more than full with a very difficult ADHD toddler. I was crying about it to my husband and he had no sympathy, just "Oh, it's just another baby". Thankfully, this baby is the polar opposite of his brother and is the world's easiest, happiest baby. I would probably have died by now, if he wasn't. As I said, I have ADD as well, so everything is harder for me and so draining. My mental and physical health are shot.
I never would have thought all this possible. He was so great with other people's kids.
maybe you are effectively a single mom...
Submitted by Delphine on
...but you aren't sorry you had them, right?
It will all get easier as they grow.
btw, i'm not an advocate of staying with someone who is not willing to adapt to the realities of relationship and parenting. My son's dad and I split...although it was actually his choice. I was shocked at the time, but I see now he was doing me a favor.
Delphine
I'm not sure it will get
Submitted by lisa84 on
I'm not sure it will get easier. I have to try to keep 4 kids from repeating this dysfunctional cycle. They won't just outgrow their ADHD, anxiety and whatever other disorders they have that I don't know about yet. I have 3 sons to try keep them from being like their dad, making their families miserable and being miserable themselves. I have a daughter I will have to fight against the forces of the universe, to try to build up her self esteem so she won't follow in my footsteps, like I did with my mother, all the while knowing she'll probably do it anyways.
My kids are smart and have a lot to offer the world. I believe every life has a purpose. I just don't want to watch them suffer.
not outgrow, but manage
Submitted by Delphine on
No, they won't outgrow their issues, but they can be managed. I didn't know you had 4 kids, I can see now you have a great deal on your plate.
I'd recommend getting a rebounder for them to jump on. Kids love that, and it's fantastic exercise. I noted that when my son (with ADHD) used the rebounder, he did a lot better. He remarked on it himself.
All kinds of heavy exercise, omega 3's and a high-protein, low carb diet go a long way toward managing ADHD. At least your kids are still young and you can guide them in this way.
Meditation, yoga, and martial arts have also proven to be very helpful. There really needs to be more awareness of these alternative approaches. Meds can only do so much.
Meditation against ADHD:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alvaro-fernandez/study-meditation-against_...
Thank you for the tips. They
Submitted by lisa84 on
Thank you for the tips. They do really well on meds, but you're right, they aren't perfect. I will look into the things you mentioned. I also want to do as much as I can go help my kids be more aware of their symptoms, so they won't be ignorant as adults. I hear a lot of parents refuse to treat their kids' ADHD because they say "I can deal with it". They take a short term view and refuse to consider the long term, that their child will have to live with themselves, hold down jobs, raise families. Having lived with ADD and having it wreak havoc in every aspect of my life, I am constantly thinking about my kids future and how I can spare them some of the pain. That was the deciding factor in starting them on meds. The other day, my 11 yr old son gave me a glimmer of hope that he is starting to develop some awareness. We had a rare incident, where he had his pill, but my daughter did not take hers. Then we went grocery shopping, which is torturous if they have not had their meds. Well, my son saw how his sister was behaving like a wild beast and said "Wow, mom. I get it now. I get it. This is how we act without our pills. No wonder you make us take them!"
But, as this site shows it's so hard to manage these symptoms, even if you are aware if them. I know that from experience, as well. It's a constant battle with myself and it's easier just to give up. So many odds are stacked against them and my anxiety causes me to worry about everything. But if I can help it, at least they won't lack knowledge.
Mothers and Worrying
Submitted by Delphine on
I certainly understand your anxiety and worry over your kids. I've done my share of that with my son, who was diagnosed a few years ago (he's mid-30's). He took the initiative in getting on meds. I was actually against it, and am still ambivalent about them. I tend to feel most mental/physical/emotional issues can be handled better by natural means.
Sometimes, I wonder if I am a self-treating ADHD, myself. I got into yoga early in life, active forms of meditation like long walks, and nutrition. I know they go a long way to keeping me in balance.
We can only do our best with our children. Ultimately it is their life to live, their choices. Just as meds can only do so much, the same is true of us moms. In Codependent No More, Melody Beattie addresses worrying:
“Furthermore, worrying about people and problems doesn't help. It doesn't solve problems, it doesn't help other people, and it doesn't help us. It is wasted energy.”
More Melody quotes:
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/4482.Melody_Beattie
And, this site is worth exploring: http://untappedbrilliance.com/
Best wishes!
Delphine
I wouldn't recommend staying
Submitted by jd9821 on
I wouldn't recommend staying with him. The soup is only as good as the stock. As much as I disagree with certain type of personality on this forum, I must say this is a commitment. I was diagnosed with adhd thought to be from in-utero complications; my father married an extremely complicated woman and I saw what it did to him. My father wasn't a bad man. I would say he was blinded by his love for me and his good nature. While i'm the last person you want to hear from, I must say: don't waste your life. It's very good you are confronting the reality of your situation. Keep doing research, and consider all things. You sound like you have been very kind. Not many people have the attitude you do. Best of luck.
No regrets
Submitted by Delphine on
Just want to go on record as saying I have no regrets about birthing a son with my ADHD ex (who during the time we lived together, was undiagnosed).
In the last few years, son (now grown) was diagnosed ADHD as well. As I understand, it is a highly heritable condition. Anyway, with all the challenges (which have spurred my growth), I can't imagine not having had him, and I am very grateful for his presence in my life.
His dad loves him very much also. He's been as involved as he can. That hasn't included being financially responsible, but it's all worked out regardless.
Oh, btw, I recognize retrospectively that my mom was ADHD. I have no regrets having been born, either.
Delphine
No offence, but that is very
Submitted by jd9821 on
No offence, but that is very egocentric and downright dangerous...
I Don't Understand? jd9821
Submitted by kellyj on
I don't understand? It sounds like you are trying to say something but it is very unclear what it is? Could you be more specific so that I can better understand? It sounded like... you just excused yourself up front for making an offensive personal opinion about Delphine and her family but you didn't say what that was or what you were referring to? Like... "I was just kidding"....after someone makes a disrespectful jab at someone in an attempt to minimize it or make it sound like it wasn't disrespectful so they won't be able to refute you in any kind of meaningful way or so you won't have to explain yourself? Is that what you were trying to do or did I just read you incorrectly?
J
someone to ignore
Submitted by Delphine on
Don't even bother, J. This guy is just clueless and as you say, not making any sense.
Delphine
What would the situation be???
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
What would the situation be if you did split? THINK LONG AND HARD.....
If you were to split, would he demand equal custody so he wouldn't have to pay much/any child support? If so, that would just mean that your kids would be under the frequent care of someone who wasn't watching out for them. TROUBLE. And you'd be losing his income.
Believe me....many neglectful dads insist on shared custody so that they don't have to pay much or anything in child support.
My H did do a lot with our kids so I had no complaints there. he'd frequently take them to the park or to boys scouts and other sports activities. He was pretty devoted to them.
BUT....if we had divorced and he had insisted on shared custody (which he would have done to avoid paying me a lot of money), he would not have made sure that they ate well, had clean clothes, and other "mother things" that I took care of. In fact, when I had to go out of town for 3 weeks one time, I came home to find no clean clothes, a ton of fast food bags, and my older son hadn't taken any of his Rx's because my H forgot to give them.
I could never have risked my H having shared custody of our kids.
I shared custody
Submitted by Delphine on
After ADHD ex and I split, we did agree to share custody. Son's stepmother was pretty conscientious. Anyway, she had several boys in the years after she married my ex, so son had brothers which has been great for him of course. I was definitely not up for that, plus was sans partner.
I would think that a new partner would be in the picture with most split-ups. It just seems to me that people are overthinking this here. We need to let go and trust more. I know I do.
Delphine
Thank you
Submitted by inspissate on
Another Update/ Hopefulness and Happiness
Submitted by firefly2223 on
Hello again,
Just didn't want to leave this thread hanging when things are evolving- incase someone else in my situation stops by and wonders, what happened with that person?
This is what's happening: since that difficult time in our lives, a period of anxiety and stress followed, largely due to financial pressures. Money was tight, we were looking for a new place as the lease was up, and I had some resentment as well due to the financial load/ stress that came about as a result of my SO not taking enough responsibility. It was a tough time with a lot of tough conversations, tears, hugs, tears, hugs....
Thankfully, there is one thing my SO never drops the ball on- and that's showing me so much love. He is also the most optimistic, positive person I have ever met, and with those traits, he carried us through what was an emotionally straining time. And I'm happy to say that he really seems to get it. He's been working overtime every week. He does it without complaint- he does it with the greatest enthusiasm I've ever seen someone work overtime. He seems to really understand that I need plans and I need a real partner to build a future with, and he's really working to be that partner for me, with tangible results.
Things are getting so much better and I am feeling light, happy, relieved. The resentment of the past months is ebbing away and I'm seeing him as a man again. I can't explain how great that feels, as I was so worried that with everything that happened, we might never get a real man/woman dynamic back in our relationship, but it's happening. It feels so good to see him as the sexy, handsome, gregarious man I saw in the beginning.
As my negative feelings and worries about the relationship clear away, I feel like my mind is free to remember and see and feel grateful for all those amazing qualities he has that made me fall in love with him in the first place. I know that we are likely to struggle with these issues in some form for our whole relationship. But I'm grateful that I didn't give up on him. I'm grateful for all the responses everyone on this site gave me, particularly those that pointed out that happy and well-functioning ADHD relationships are possible, they probably just aren't posting on forums to the extent that their frustrated counterparts would be.
I believe that my SO truly loves me with all of himself, and I him- and that it will be worth the struggles. It will be worth it because when we are together, simply his presence makes me feel so good. Because when I look into his eyes, I always see my best friend in the whole world looking back at me, who would do anything for me- and is trying to. He's made mistakes. But he is a good man with a beautiful heart.
I don't know what other difficult times will come up for us, but I'm sure they will- I just know that this love is worth holding on to. And if you came here because you are in a similar situation- I don't have the "right" answers, but it's helped me to remember that we are all flawed individuals. We are all messed up, difficult, and complicated in some way. And we are all just tender hearts, wishing someone would love us for all of our messed up, difficult, complicated selves.
My SO has never once shown me anything but perfect acceptance, support, and love for who I am, at my best and my worst. I want to be the one that will love him deeply, truly, inside out- in spite of his flaws and mistakes. Because being a messy, crazy, irresponsible, distracted goof ball can't reduce a person's heart to less than it is- or make it any less deserving of love. He deserves to be loved the way he loves me.
So for now, his job is to be more responsible, more practical, more future-oriented like me; my job is to be more accepting, less critical, more positive, like him. We can always learn from each other. It helps to remember that.
That's wonderful firefly, but
Submitted by dvance on
That's wonderful firefly, but I bet many of us here would say you are fooling yourself. It won't last. My husband is the kindest guy in the world and would take a bullet for me or either of our two kids. Is he reliable? No. Do I count on him for any kind of emotional support? No. Do I expect anything out of him? No. He can focus on things for a certain period of time and then that's it. He has had his current job for about 18 months and he is starting to talk like he always does before a job goes bad--he is the ONLY person there that knows what's going on, thank GOODNESS they hired him because no one else has a clue, that kind of thing. Ditto with other women--there have been three in the past 4 years that I know about. Does he love me? Yes. Does that inform his behavior at any given moment? Not really. He loves me for who I am too, so much so that there is little to no encouragement for me to get any better, things like going back to school or working out and losing weight, that kind of thing. And because his acceptance is so "perfect" ( to use your word) anything less from me back to him makes me look like a real bitch. To call ADHD behavior being a "distracted goof ball" is so far from the reality I cannot even tell you. A goof ball does not hand over the family credit card to a friend and then lie about it. A goof ball does not buy a car and not tell his wife. Those are examples from my life. Read this board--a goof ball does not ignore his children or fail to maintain steady income or throw temper tantrums when they don't get their way or leave their wives to take care of their own parents (all things I have read on this board). Of course everyone deserves to be loved but there is more to building a future than love. Love will not pay the bills or take care of the kids responsibly or hold down a job or tell the truth.
Good luck
Some thoughts on your thoughts
Submitted by firefly2223 on
Hi
Thanks for your response. I realize that without the years of experience in this relationship, it's possible I'm being naive. But I have to believe it's also possible that there are a lot of other issues at play in many relationships other than simply one partner's ADHD. And maybe some people are better suited to a partner with these issues simple because of their personalities.
For example- my BF's acceptance of me doesn't make me less motivated to be a good person or pursue my passions or take care of myself- it makes me want to be even better. It makes me feel like the right things I am doing are being seen and appreciated. In fact, if it did take some of the pressure off, that wouldn't even be bad thing, simply because my personality is such that I expect so much out of myself that sometimes I don't slow down to see that I have accomplished a lot and I do have a lot to be proud of. I also grew up in a quite critical, extremely ambitious household- so him seeing me the way he does and being so proud of me- in many ways it's the first time in my life I realized my own greatness.
I am way too intense of a person to ever have my ambition knocked out of me by my partner. Him being laid back that way works for my personality. I just want to say - we all have a responsibility to make our own lives what we want them to be. Anyone who places the blame completely on their partner for the misery in their lives isn't being completely honest with themselves.
Being with someone who has these kinds of issues can no doubt bring stress and so much undue struggle- and I'm sure I don't even know the half of it. But if I ever come to a point where this relationship puts me in a place of self-loathing and utter despair- ultimately that's on me to change the circumstances of my life. There are also men and women out there with ADHD who do handle it better, who do learn from their mistakes, who don't necessarily have all the personality traits you describe. So while I appreciate that your response likely comes from a wealth of experience- I don't think those things are necessarily universal- and more importantly- my hope may be placed on the wrong shoulders, but I won't blame him if he fails. I am choosing him with open eyes. I'm nobody's fool- not even my own.
And we aren't married yet. I think he'll show me the truth of his commitment to improving before we get to that point.
Thanks for your response. I hope you find some relief and solutions that can work in your situations.
Time tells
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Hello, Firefly
You brought wonderful news in your report back. I have every hope for you and your partner. How wonderful that your partner has taken on what he has, and now works with you to reach shared goals. I agree that like people without ADHD, people with it vary from each other, and vary in what they call on themselves to do. some of the very real, very painful problems in Dvance's household arent going on in mine. Every person with ADHD is different, every particular relation is different, as you say.
All this being true, I do hope that you wait, and wait again before you finalize a decision to marry. ADHD will never go away. It can't be erased by either of you. Human beings that we are, real, enduring change of self view and habit takes persistent effort over a long time. In an ideal world, one that wasnt available to many who post on this forum, including me, but is available to you if you and your partner access it, the relationship interface that involves ADHD and its fall out would be worked on by both of you, explicitly...doing what you two have done, but doing more learning and trying, before marriage, and the process of discovery of big sticking points wouldn't start after the ceremony. Edited to add: As J says in an earlier post, live together for 2 to 3 years before... and I'd add, now that you both are rowing toward common goals, that longer period before marriage being used for explicit work on how the two of you, in particular, are going to interface over ADHD issues and any issues of your own from your own past that he, with his ADHD will have to cope with.
I'm with a very good man, Firefly. He's my heart of hearts. I would be with no other. I'm very, very steady on that.
We did spend J's requisite 2 to 3 years together before we married, but because my future husband and I didnt live together ., because the hyperfocus hadnt ebbed and because he, as well as I, hadnt let our "face to the outside world" entirely slip away yet, even after about 3 years of being committed to each other, I was stunned, alarmed, disoriented and extremely sad at some of the real needs and difficulties that he has that started showing up...AS we were marrying and immediately after the marriage. I'm farther into acceptance now, and my husband and I are farther into working on how we interact with each other, like you and your partner, we can talk about what we are doing and what we want; but then right after marrying, seeing many things tumbling out, I felt I had been trapped into something that ought to have been shown to me before the wedding. I was in grief at how hard I was going to have to work daily. You mentioned being the caretaker. This is a very serious issue in many of these relationships. It's not fixed by positive attitude on the part of the person with the larger workload, or the one with the larger load becoming more resourceful in managing herself.
I partially walked into life with ADHD blind ot it because I had no knowledge of ADHD, at all. You're so far ahead of me on that. And my future husband wasn't talking about it...to this day there is a tremendous amount of shame and probably anger attached to that label, for him, due to how he has been treated in the past and what that label has been used for against him in his life before we met. So he and I talk about behavior, not about labels. And he was certainly mum about what he knew about why he was doing things certain ways...and he does know himself pretty well. He had been so shamed in the past, Firefly
But the impact on me, going into my wedding and seeing what happened once we did start marital life, was that I was unaware of important things that, now married, are permanently in my life. I'm not bitching. I'm not saying or thinking that my husband lied to me Yes, he hadnt let down into his own ways yet on some very important things, until right before the wedding.
It all began for me, as I racked my brains weeks before the ceremony at what was starting to happen between us that hadn't before, and somewhat as a fluke, another family member mentioned Adderall, by name, commenting on its abuse as a study drug by young people. There was some family talk, I looked Adderall up, saw that it was often prescribed for ADHD/ADD, read what usual challenges of ADHD were, was gobsmacked, knew the perils of internet diagnoses, but went into warp speed reading. So right up to the week of the wedding, I was discovering what had been going on and what I was headed into. I've pursued offline professional counseling in the matter, so at this point, I'm not depending only on my own reading and guessing. I intensely hope that if you marry, you don't have to approach it in the state of confusion and foreboding that I was living in when I married. I tooking an f-ing flying leap, betting on what I knew about our character....our moral personalities, not on MY "being able to handle living with ADHD" There's considerably more to the story but I'm likely wearing you out with details of my situation, that I hope you and your partner are able to avoid by doing some up front work together.
Why if my future husband knew very well about his distractibility, emotional lability, short term memory problems, problems with physical order, hyperfocus, and so on and so on, did he not let me in on more of what he knew about himself? I'm not rationalizing in what follows, I think I've got it accurate: my husband has to suck so much in and tone it down or make it palatable or invisible to people outside our marriage. He always has. He does it. By now I've seen the mental force and strength of will he needs to put into toning himself down and editing himself when he's with "outsiders." I was one of them until I became his wife, and started to inhabit his mental world in which he HAS to let his guard down because people need mental and physical space to let down and be themselves SOMEwhere. To be clear about it, we weren't cohabiting and werent married, but we spent hours together every day for several years. He sucked important parts of him in and held through all that, and only after we married did he let it out. In our case, J's 2 to 3 years wasn't enough for him to let down his guard, even to me, to fully show himself to me "at home" as he is at home with himself. Imagine, Firefly, someone having that much need to repress himself, so that he doesn't alarm someone again, and isn't shamed by his own ways that people don't accept, again. Imagine how much.
That's why I'm wanting to talk to you about using explicit talk and explicit work about ADHD related matters before you have that wedding, if you two are still inclined to it, and likely are. Explicit. Your partner's turn around on working for the good of both of you is the huge door of opportunity into direct, serious preparation for marriage that I didn't have (and so my future husband and I didn't have) and certainly spouses on this site whose partner's ADHD/ADD was not yet diagnosed never had. I'm sure you haven't missed the stories of spouses in marriages that have had trouble for years, decades, and something like 20 or 30 years in, there's finally a diagnosis of ADHD or the spouse, like I did, stumbles on what may be keys to the problems on the internet.
You have a chance that we didn't have to prepare for a marriage that will permanently have some features of it that will challenge you both.
I'm glad that my husband did let down his guard and began living more as he really is. I'm very glad. Firefly, I couldn't have a real marriage with him if he didn't do this. I tell him the truth over and over that I fell in love with him as he is, not as he might be. And I don't care what of him comes with ADHD attached and what doesn't. That's the truth. But Firefly, without exaggeration, I went through some real on this earth hell for me, after marriage, because I was so ignorant of things that started happening between us, as I say, right AT the two weeks before marriage, and certainly after marriage. .
[Later edited to add: and I don't know what's in store for us, and for me, for the very long haul. Marriage is not for a short-haul trial relationship. I read with great gravity the comments from people in marriages of 10, 20, 30 years that "ADHD gets worse with time." Will it in our house? I don't know. I do know that after having felt a great deal of emotional pain at the beginning of the marriage, thrashing around in bewilderment, not knowing what was going on in the relation at times, and the struggle, the work! I'm only now several years later finding a balance that makes my own life livable...this has NOTHING to do with my affection for my husband or my acceptance of his ADHD. His ADHD is what it is. My old triggers are what they are.
My concern, will ADHD symptoms worsen as he and I age has EVERYthing to do with my wellbeing and with how he and I are able to deal with the unavoidable big challenges of aging related change, with ADHD permanently in our lives. Will ADHD symptoms worsen as my husband ages? If HIS ADHD goalposts get moved by aging, will he work with me on the changes in his challenges and the changes that have an impact on our wellbeing and on me? I don't know, I don't know. I'll have to see. If they do "get worse," that will be trouble, because as I age myself, I will not have the physical vigor that I have now. I don't ever expect to be able to work harder, and keep more things in my head, handle incessant interruption and handle my emotions when I'm stoned with fatigue than I can do now. I'm at what peak I physically have in those matters. We'll see what happens to both of us. I am married, not cohabitating, which means to me that it's for life. ]
As C wrote elsewhere on the site, it sure would have been a help, had I gotten some foresight and the chance to work with my partner on his ADHD related needs and triggers, and my needs with ADHD in the picture before we married. I wouldn't have gone through that much emotional pain at the beginning of the marriage for one thing. And for another, a relationship, any relationship, gets "set" in the first phase of it, and after that, change in what was "set" at the beginning is harder.
I'm being repetitive because it sounds to me like you have a chance, Firefly, of making a better start at living with ADHD in the mix than I had, through no moral fault whatsoever of my husband. You and your partner have that opportunity, to learn, try, and "set" yourselves consciously and deliberately, because the two of you created it for yourselves when you communicated with each other about him working, and he rose to the challenge (wonderfully). I hope you take some time and prepare with him, for life with ADHD before you commit to it.
it was great to read your latest. So many times the core problem identified on this site is that one is or both partners are stuck in denial, or are otherwise not at a point of real willingness to work on themselves to change. There is a lot of reporting backsliding on this site, too, of doing things for a little wjile but going back to old patterns. This is a struggle most human beings have, and it would be unrealistic to think that one would be an exception. That's why your report was so very cheering, the two of you have wonderfully cleared a first hurdle
Now
Worse with age?
Submitted by Delphine on
Hey Now, I just wanted to address your concern re whether your partner's ADHD will get worse with age.
This is a concern for me too, as mother of a son with ADHD. So I did a search and found:
http://danarayburn.com/does-adhd-get-worse-with-age/
I think she must be right. It depends on whether the person is taking steps to improve coping skills, such as coaching.
And I will reiterate what I've said before, that I believe heavy exercise such as rebounding, and a low carb, high protein diet will help a lot.
I posted about this ebook here recently. Just in case you didn't see:
http://www.marsvenus.com/assets/downloads/ebook-john-gray-starter-guide-...
Still perusing, myself. btw, from my research, it looks like this herb can be helpful for ADHD, as it has a stimulant, euphoric effect, and assists mental focus and concentration. I am taking it myself though I don't have ADHD. I do note that I have increased focus and a plethora of creative ideas!
From Chris Kilham, expert on herbs:
http://www.medicinehunter.com/sceletium-potent-mood-booster
A good way to describe the effects of sceletium is through a simple metaphor. Think of your mind as a reasonably well-tuned four cylinder engine. About half an hour after consuming between 50 - 100 milligrams of sceletium, your mind is more like a twelve cylinder, turbo-charged racing engine. Soon your mind is overcome with startling clarity, a feeling that anything is possible, and a seemingly endless capacity for ideas and mental work. If coffee is a pick-me-up, sceletium is a jet ride to mental brilliance.
The staggering effects of sceletium seem primarily due to a group of alkaloids, notably mesembrine, mesembrenol and tortuosamine. These compounds interact with receptors in the brain, enhancing the production of dopamine, which is our primary inner pleasure chemical, and prolonging the activity of serotonin, a critically important mood compound. The net effect of sceletium ingestion is a feeling of tremendous well being, heightened awareness, mental alertness and a keen-mindedness that is quite pronounced.
In a recent visit my son shared that he feels motivated to cut back on his med and in time to stop it completely. I am going to give him some of this to see how it works for him. Here's hoping!
It is legal, btw.
Oh, Firefly, very glad to hear you and your partner are doing so well. Onward and upward, yeah?
:)
Delphine
Thank you, Delphine.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Thank you, Delphine.
Sons and Spouses
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Hi Delphine,
I am thinking, from my own experience, that the ADHD doesn't necessarily get worse with age, it just gets tiring. Messy rooms, lost coats, unfinished projects. . . .those things are part of childhood - - -ADHD or not. When those things continue on into early adulthood - that is a different story.
I love to organize. I can look into a room full of stuff and easily see a way to organize the contents. Car parts over here. Mementos over here. Pens, pencils and office supplies over here. When my son looks into a room full of stuff, his brain just gets overwhelmed. For that, he knows he needs assistance in organizing.
Several years ago, he had moved out to be on his own. He was renting space in a house his buddy had purchased. Then, one day unannounced, his buddy had a girlfriend and her 3 children under the age of 5 move in. My son found out when he got a call from his buddy asking if there were any guns lying around in his room. . . . . . . . .so ended the bachelor pad. My son did not want to move back home, so he moved all his stuff here, packed in boxes, till his own flip house is habitable. He bought his house with cash. We lent him the last 10% of the cash he needed, and he is also paying us monthly on that.
He has been sleeping up atop the loft bed that I purchased for my little great nieces and nephews to stay overnight. All his stuff is in boxes, under the loft bed, in his room, and along the wall of the upstairs hallway. His clothes are all in boxes, too, so he lives out of boxes. Well, it has been 3 years this past May. I do not think he should be living like that. He sees it as "I'm just 'sleeping' like that." He did pay our cleaning lady to dust and vacuum his room about 6 months ago. He pays rent, pays his own auto insurance, and auto repairs, and for all his own stuff.
He is a business partner in his Dad's construction business. He works M-W with his Dad, additional time if needed. He has his own business, He does auto repair. Growth of that is limited as he does not have the space to fully expand until he moves to his house. He has a huge barn there that will be his garage. He has lots of plans, and they are moving forward. . . . just slowly. Time management is rough for him - - - -that of course is my own opinion. For the most part, he is content. He has no desire for expensive cars and fancy houses. He is a blue jeans and t-shirt sort of guy. He gets joy in just tinkering in his garage, hanging out with his friends.
All that said, I still want to light a fire under his butt and get him a-movin. LOL!!! the biggest glitch he ran into with his house - - - he thought he would get a home equity loan to complete the flip. Well, he needs a homeowner's policy to get a loan. To get a home owner's policy, he heeds the roof and siding completed. . . .which he can't do until he gets a loan. . . . .a Catch 22. So, it is moving along, but a lot slower than anticipated. The roofing materials are bought. they are in process of being installed. All the windows and doors have been bought with a Home Depot Contractors' loan - which he also pay monthly.
Yep, all this grown-up stuff. And time that goes by when plans need to be adjusted.
My life's travels have been watching him grow - with eyes wide open to ADHD - AND - being married to a man with ADHD, that was un-known and undiagnosed until he was 53. My son knows his strengths, and asks for help with things that are not his strong points. My spouse has many coping mechanisms that he developed. They have gotten him to today - - -but some are not pleasant for ME to find a way to cope with, without feeling overwhelmed.
There are many aspects of adult life that I just took for granted - such as getting married and sharing the life load. I loved knowing some things that I found distasteful - like working on cars, and shoveling snow when it is really cold - were things my spouse did without batting an eye. I loved being a nurturer. I enjoyed taking care of my spouse. I grew discontent as I realized the responsibilities of life were not being equally shared, in a way that was comfortable for me.
It is such a very different thing to love a child with ADHD versus an adult spouse with ADHD.
Very truly,
Liz
Liz, it sounds to me like
Submitted by Delphine on
Liz, it sounds to me like your son is doing very well. Self-supporting, responsible with finances, and happy with his life. So he lives out of boxes. Well, ADHD in general thinks and lives "out of the box." Heh :D
I'm an organizer, too. It was difficult for me when my son was living here and his room reminded of the Augean Stables in Greek mythology. http://normaleditions.illinoisstate.edu/pozzatti_stables.jpg
I did organize it a few times. He didn't want me to and it was a lot of work, so in the end I gave it up, except for taking his overflowing trash to the garbage bins for pickup. He's been gone for a few months now and I sure don't miss that part of sharing the place with him!
I agree that the experience of loving a child with ADHD is different from that of loving a spouse with ADHD. My son's dad was ADHD, undiagnosed back then. I was angry with him a lot for what I saw as his irresponsibility and lack of consideration. Son was undiagnosed too up until a couple of years ago, and he stressed me out also, but as you say, a lot of the things common to ADHD are also to be expected in a young child.
My mom was ADHD also, in hindsight. This forum helped me to that realization. So obviously I have had a LOT of experience with this condition. You wrote:
It is such a very different thing to love a child with ADHD versus an adult spouse with ADHD.
I think in essence it is not that different. Love is love. What makes it different experientally, IMO, is that it is easier to love a child unconditionally. And of course it is expected that children will move away and live their own lives.
We can divorce our spouses. We can get to the point of not loving/caring about/forgiving them. Because we don't love them unconditionally--we have expectations.
I am not saying we "should" love them unconditionally. I certainly didn't love my son's dad that way. But it is clear to me that this is what "real" love is about. As portrayed in 1 Corinthians 13. No, it's not easy.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/nathanwpyle/1-corinthians-13-in-my-experience-l...
Best always,
Delphine
Thanks Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm going to check into some of these supplements...I glanced through the E-Book by Dr Gray and I remembered a bit of trivia that goes along with what you brought up here with age or mental stress in general. If I remember this correctly.....the amount of decisions we make by simply getting into a car and driving on a busy public street to ge across town....is more mental decision making that the average person at the turn of the 18th century made in an entire year. I wonder if these changes in the brain we're seeing...isn't a result of this?
I know for myself....what I'm seeing is exactly what Dana Arayburn is saying. Some of the things that I never use to have any problems with associated with my ADHD seem directly tied to my stress and anxiety but....I've learned how to deal with them better than I did when I was younger. So the answer is yes and no.....I think with age they've gotten worse in some ways....but other ways, they're not as much a problem only because I learned to manage them better. My stress in other words...is actually less now as I'm older...than when the symptoms were not as bad in some respects but with more stress and anxiety. I think if a person doesn't learn to deal or cope along the way...it will only make tings worse overall by my thinking about this?
That also includes depression as well which If and when I experience depression....it's almost exclusively tied to prolonged anxiety and nothing else. This is all the physical symptoms we're talking about....not the behavioral ones that everyone else sees even though those are tied together to a certain degree as well.
This would point directly at reducing stress and anxiety as the first course of action and I would confirm that as well. I like the idea of complimenting that with the supplements on top of that. This is why I think....that having the structure there in place which reduces stress is so important. Having too many things coming at you all at once or things changing all the time without notice is the hardest thing for me to deal with in general. It's why I also think that having kids with ADHD can be so problematic. I don't have any myself...but I can only imagine..... and that would not be an easy thing to deal with since that goes directly against what I just said? I can empathize with anyone who has ADHD and kids since kids are pretty unpredictable as you know? I would imagine....the level in which things start to fall apart...would be much sooner than on average with everyone else unless there is some way to meter and control the stress level and the resulting anxiety at the same time?
J
J: ADHD, with kids
Submitted by Delphine on
J:
I can empathize with anyone who has ADHD and kids since kids are pretty unpredictable as you know? I would imagine....the level in which things start to fall apart...would be much sooner than on average with everyone else unless there is some way to meter and control the stress level and the resulting anxiety at the same time?
My mother, who as I've shared, had ADHD undiagnosed (there wasn't even a name for the condition back then), had five kids within six years. I was the firstborn. She told me, when I had my son and said to her I couldn't imagine how she handled five young children, that she dealt with it by being a "slipshod" mother. But yes, I did observe her stress level and I became her confidante in some ways, including re her troubled relationship with my dad.
Mom had been given up by her biological mother when she was two, and was taken in and raised by a well-to-do older woman when she was five. She never had a real family, growing up. This was the desire of her heart, but the reality was quite a bit at variance with her fantasies. She said to me once that the best time in her life was when she was 18, no responsibilities aside from school, and going out all the time. "It's been all downhill from there." That didn't sit well with me. Like, what was I, chopped liver? :) I get it now, but still, not something a kid wants to hear from Mom.
Anyway...I agree with you that our culture in general these days promotes ADHD. All the more reason to take proactive steps such as outlined in John Gray's book. Re your stress and anxiety, you might try the herb I mentioned to NON. I would love it if someone here tried it and reported their results. Another product which I take myself on and off, is obtainable from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Health-Aid-America-HealthAid-RelaxEase/dp/B0035YLPL6
There are many natural options, which IMO are always to be preferred to pharmaceuticals.
Delphine
Poeple Are Poeple...Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
She said to me once that the best time in her life was when she was 18, no responsibilities aside from school, and going out all the time. "It's been all downhill from there." That didn't sit well with me. Like, what was I, chopped liver? :) I get it now, but still, not something a kid wants to hear from Mom.
I said this before, but I'm pretty sure my mother was the one with ADHD. I'm also thinking ( as an informed educated guess )...her mother was ADHD too. It's so ironic Delphine, my mother said almost the identical thing to me on a number of occasions. In the same way, I was that confidante for my mother (from the other end as you being the youngest by many years). This was not something however....I appreciated. To the point, that I really resisted it since it just felt "creepy" at the time. "What am I .....your therapists? ( as I slowly inched away and towards the door) I'm the kid here you know....I think something is backwards here?" lol
All kidding aside....something was backwards...and right there is the problem I had to deal with. I like you....was feeling like I wasn't getting something but a step beyond that....I was having to give something that I didn't have or at least....I didn't think I had but actually did? I also, understand this now in that I can now see my parents exactly as they were. They were just people, no different than anyone else?
I think when we need people, to be something they're not....we're setting ourselves and the other person up for failure since our "needs" are dictating what that person needs to be for us instead of seeing them for who they really are. Our 'NEED"....becomes our fantasy that we impose on other people..... but that is not only unrealistic and presumptuous....it's not based on anything real. It's also only based on us...and what we want or need...it has nothing to do with the other person who is in the same boat we're in at the same time.....and possibly, a lot worse off than we are ourselves on top of it?
I think....that control is not the same thing as power. Control is an illusion that we fabricate from a lack of personal power. The less internal fortitude and power we have....the more we substitute control as a poor replacement.
Not only poor....but inherently flawed right from the get go. I think that exerting control or trying to control our external world and focusing entirely on trying to make the world and others fit to us.......the less power you have and the more dependent you become?
It's so ironic....that by exerting power and control on others only makes us more dependent on them. It robs us of the very thing that we really "need".......personal power and internal strength for ourselves. I think when we have the ability to control ourselves and exert that power onto our selves.....we no longer "need" anyone and no longer have the need to control others to get what we already have?
J
Poeple
Submitted by kellyj on
People who need people,
Are the luckiest people in the world
We're children, needing other children
And yet letting a grown-up pride
Hide all the need inside
Acting more like children than children
Lovers, very special people
They're the luckiest people in the world
With one person (one person)
One very special person (one very special person)
A feeling deep in your soul (in your soul)
Says you were half now you're whole
No more hunger and thirst
First be a person who needs people
People who need people
Are the luckiest people in the world
No more hunger or thirst
First be a person who needs people (people need people)
People who need people
Are the luckiest (luckiest) people in the world
Barbra Streisand
Songwriters
CARMINE APPICE, CARMINE JR. APPICE, MARK STEIN, TIM BOGERT, VINCENT MARTELL
I could not have said that better myself. And not nearly as eloquently! lol
J
Naw
Submitted by Delphine on
I don't subscribe to the sentiments in that song. I think people who don't need people are the luckiest :)
Pop songs are all about that, I've noticed. Needing someone. It's massive brainwashing.
LOL.....Oh, C'Mon ...Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
It's poetic and up for interpretation! lol The line's that really spoke to me were...
We're children, needing other children
And yet letting a grown-up pride
Hide all the need inside
Acting more like children than children
Says you were half now you're whole
No more hunger and thirst
First be a person who needs people
People who need people
My interpretation of that...is not being co-dependent or dependent and being a whole person who only needs to be with people for that reason alone. Interdependent? That's how I hear it?
I have to agree with you though.....from Babs perspective...she sounds like a whiner who is feeling like she wishes she was that way.....how lucky I'd be...only if???
Yep...pop songs gotta play those strings I guess? If only I'd win the lottery.....then I'd be Lucky!!! lol
I'm also, probably never going up in a space shuttle any time soon.....I'm not losing any sleep over it:)
J
I guess J, I'm reacting
Submitted by Delphine on
I guess J, I'm reacting to how I perceive the message of that song, because it seems to me that a lot of people stay in detrimental relationships simply because they can't face being alone.
I know that was true of my mother, staying with my dad despite his rages and abuse of her and us. OK, again I feel impelled to say, I know they both did the best they could at the time.
Another pov, on the benefits of solitude:
http://innerself.com/content/video-categories/personal-development/spiri...
TRANSCRIPT:
A lot of people fear solitude yet the great psychiatrist Winnicott said that the capacity for solitude is one of the greatest markers of psychological health. So if you can develop your capacity for solitude that means that you are okay being alone with yourself.
As Cal Newport who wrote the book Deep Work notes some of the most meaningful things we do in our life add unique value to the world that are not replicable as he puts it. Are operated under the conditions that are complete distraction free where we try to eliminate as much as possible that ringing, you know, from our phone that we have a new text or we have a new email or looking on Facebook and checking the likes. Disconnecting from the outside world as much as possible and get in a situation where we’re in complete solitude that we can get completely immersed and really follow through to completion something in a very deep way. He argues that is very conducive to a good life as well as a meaningful life.
It doesn’t mean because you’ve developed your capacity for solitude that you’re a misanthrope is what I want to say. It doesn’t mean that. That’s a false dichotomy. You can develop your capacity fully for optimal deep work but you can also develop your capacity to collaborate with others so that once you come up with ideas or generate things that are deep you can then share and get feedback and then go back. It’s a constant process, constant cyclical process where you go back and forth between getting feedback from the world and seeing what your sense of audience. It’s very important to know what your sense of audience, get a sense of your audience when you’re producing a creative work. But it’s also very important to have moments where you go into solitude and you embrace the beauty of silence.
I Hear You.... Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
I think there are many reasons why people stay together when someone looking on the outside might go..""why?". I think it's really easy to sit and look on and say.."I would never do that if I were that person." I have been on both sides of this and I no longer say that any more. Once you're actually there....that perspective can and will change in a hurry. There are many reasons why people stay together and I don't think there are any bad reasons depending on many things. (barring the obvious...like overt physical or mental abuse. Clearly lol )
That is...with the exception of one. The inability or fear of being alone. If you can't be alone or live with yourself...by yourself, even for a short period of time without having to have someone there with you at all times without that being the problem in itself. I think this almost automatically sets a person up for being dependent and repeating a pattern of co-dependent relationships throughout their life.
I really feel it's not fair and not considering the other person you may be entering into a relationship with in the future (rather selfish actually)....if you aren't being honest with yourself and this is what you are bringing into the relationship right from the start. This is especially true...if the person you are with (or have chosen to be with)...is not this way themselves. The burden this places on others when we do this....is like handing them all that fear and insecurity and making them responsible for it even though this isn't anything they should be responsible in the first place. That's just not fair at all to the other person right from the get go. The problems this will present them will be many...right from the start.
I think that also applies the same if you are this way now.... and in any kind of relationship already no matter what status it is. I personally feel very strongly....that this is every ones responsibility to find your way through this..... not just for your own sake, but more importantly for the sake of the other person who has to deal with this. The bottom line here is.....they shouldn't have to...it's not theirs to deal with but yet....that what happens.
I can think of only one exception here...and that would be to tell that person straight up that you are too insecure to be alone and you need someone to be with so you won't be lonely and insecure? I'm not talking about living in an isolated area or without the ability to find others to be with or have friendships which is a very real possibility for many people. I'm talking about being lonely and insecure and being afraid of being alone....when the opportunities are all around you and you are like this anyway.
The problem with being co-dependent while you're in a relationship....is you end up being lonely anyway, despite being with someone at the same time. Someone who has never been alone and has never NOT been in a serious relationship....might think that being alone is what makes you lonely, insecure feeling and afraid. I personally don't think this is true at all. If you're insecure and fear being alone....you'll be lonely and afraid whether you with someone or not.
Actually.....being co-dependent is what makes you this way....it's not from being alone. Just the opposite is true... that's the point. And just so you know....I'm speaking from own experience here and using that for the only reason I can say these things. I feel pretty strongly in this one exception to the rule.....that this is not bad advise to be giving to anyone else and feel pretty safe in saying that I think I'm right here. For what it's worth:)
J
Agree J that being alone in
Submitted by Delphine on
Agree J that being alone in itself isn't what makes you lonely. I am alone mostly at this point and I feel less lonely than when I was in relationships. Yes, we need to be able to be alone before we are ready to be in a close relationship.
I think there are many reasons why people stay together when someone looking on the outside might go..""why?". I think it's really easy to sit and look on and say.."I would never do that if I were that person." I have been on both sides of this and I no longer say that any more. Once you're actually there....that perspective can and will change in a hurry. There are many reasons why people stay together and I don't think there are any bad reasons depending on many things. (barring the obvious...like overt physical or mental abuse. Clearly lol )
I guess what it comes down to for me is, if you are choosing to stay with someone in a difficult relationship, then suck it up and find a way to make it work for you for as long as you are together. If you are not meant to continue with them, then the ways and means for separation will naturally unfold in time. That has been my experience. Complaining about them (and I admit I've done plenty of that myself) doesn't help, and actually makes things worse. You get what you concentrate on. That is the Law of Attraction.
As the song sez: "Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, don't mess with Mr. IN-Between." :)
This fits with what Melissa Orlov advises. Be the best you you can be, and your partner will follow suit. I would add: or they will leave--again, when the time is right.
Delphine
One Foot Out the Door ...Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
That's that living..."in between" thing. I know this one very well....and if you don't think this is not something your partner will pick up on or notice...think again. It's shows in countless ways even if it is never being said. This is a "qualitative" difference that is really easy to notice and pick up on and there's no hiding it no matter how hard a person tries.
I think this is the same when someone is having an affair or cheating. Even without any hard evidence to prove otherwise....you can tell. Something is intuitively wrong and it's not just your imagination?
This was something that I had to really get over and look at from a different direction with my wife. Whether she realizes this or not....every time we get into a big fight or argument....she threatens to leave. She actually doesn't threaten out right...she comes and starts talking about how we're not meant to be with each other and how she thinks this was a big mistake blah blah blah. At first....I use to ake her for face value and this was really upsetting to me since appeared as if she always had one foot out the door just as you are saying. That non-commitment thing which can....make the other person really uncomfortable and insecure. And as I have come to understand with my wife...just like with the Gaslighting....she has no idea she's doing this or why? It's completely unintentional but at the same time it's still saying...."either you do what I want...or I'm leaving". Yet she never leaves and wants to stay.
With her...it's just another test...to see what I'll do. When I realized this and stopped seeing it the other way.....I take it with a grain of salt and just keep moving forward as it she never said it. And every time I do that....I pass the test each time and then she's very forgiving and easy to be around until the next time things don't go her way.
If you stand back and look at this pattern of behavior....it is very much like a little girl who is refusing to play, if things aren't going her way.
The last time I went in to see myt T....I brought this up with him and mentioned the Gaslighting. He doesn't use that term so he actually had to look it up right when I was there. Once he read about it...he immediately knew what it was of course. I told him..."now do you understand why I was reacting the way I was? It seemed....oh so familiar!!"
And that's when he said...and how he said this..."in context to what I just read here when I googled it....it was referencing this to an abusive manipulator which points right to a Narcissist in the context to the one article I saw. In context to what your seeing however....I might not call it Gaslighting exactly as this description is saying. As I read this....this is done with a certain amount of awareness and intention on the part of someone doing it within this context. They might not be aware of it every time they do it since they've become so skilled at it and can do it on demand as needed in a more habitual way. But how they came about doing it or learning to do it...was with the awareness that it works and so hey.....if it works....that's good for me."
As I see my wife now....she gets triggered into it and it completely compulsive (the splitting thing). That comes from growing up on the other side of someone doing that to her non stop....and kind of picked it from this tit for tat kind of exchange and is not even aware that she does or even the reason why. For her....she doesn't have a clue and is not wielding this to manipulate me as much as a response from a lack of power and not having another way of trying to control a situation she has no control of.
As I see it....this makes her difficult....but understanding the difference and realizing that this is the same tactics used on her by her own mother....is what she learned and all she could do at the time. That means....she not doing it for the same reason her mother did it...and in this case.....that's an extremely important difference to understand. In fact...it makes all the difference in the world in trying to decide what to do?
The same as when she starts talking about leaving. It's a weak attempt to try and test me or to feel secure...the more insecure she feels when we get into things aren't going well. She has almost no ability or skills in negotiating and compromising and this is all she's got in the moment I think? It's about fear and insecurity and actually...not wanting to leave at all. This would be more like...that little girl who is not getting her way if the Tea Party isn't going well. lol That's the part I'm willing to suck up...as long as that's all it is. We'll be working on this together...as time goes on. It doesn't make it any easier in the mean time....but the proof in this has already been established for me.
It could be the other alternative however....that being a master manipulator and is trying to control others by taking advantage of them for their own self serving means. That's not a more immature left over childhood response.....that's a calculating adult...who knows exactly what they're doing. Having been on both sides of this now.....that's a huge difference and one I feel you really need to know first before you can make that kind of decision to either stay....or to leave. Unless this is just completely unacceptable in itself? The way I see it....my wife doesn't not want to do this and I believe her when she tells me that now.
Like I said.....I'm no walk in the park either....we do share that in common after all.lol I've got my things like this to a certain degree....they're just not the same ones and that's really the only difference between the two of us even though....I think....I'm a little ahead of her in one respect...and have less of these issues than she does only because I've already managed to figure them out already. The real problem I have....is having to continually remind myself of this when those moments come where I have to talk myself out of seeing things the other way which is really easy for me to lose sight of in the moment but not in the overall picture. Not engaging, letting it go ( or sucking it up) ...and not letting this derail me is still the best course of action all things considered.
J
Onward
Submitted by Delphine on
It sounds like you have got a good handle on the situation with your wife, J. I agree her talk about breaking up is just empty threats.
Our downstairs neighbor shows similar traits. When things aren't going her way, she will go ballistic, rant and rage, blame, talk about calling the landlord on us, calling the police, etc. I've learned the hard way that arguing/defending when she is that state, is truly an exercise in futility and only makes things worse. Like you with your wife, I have to suck it up. Things have been better lately, but with her you never know. One thing that helps is giving her some of my homemade banana bread. She loves it and thinks I'm a great cook. :) And at least it shows her that I wish her well despite everything.
So, here's to sucking it up and making the best of it, whatever "it" may be. Onward!
Delphine
Sure J, when we are grown we
Submitted by Delphine on
Sure J, when we are grown we can understand the human limitations of our parents, how they got to be the way they were, etc. While at the same time recognizing that for us as kids, it was often not easy to be faced/burdened with their issues, when we were too young to understand.
Good insight about the need for power and control over others, actually making us more dependent on them. Another paradox: with inner strength and getting everyone else out of the equation as I have mentioned before, then we are able to be truly interdependent, cooperative and sharing.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/96194142017497317/
This gives me hope,
Submitted by firefly2223 on
And I think you are right- that for us to be working on getting his diagnoses, and really facing his symptoms together, and fairly early in our relationship, might help us build a more solid relationship with regard to his ADHD than if it was something we ended up discovering after many years of confusion and built up hurt and resentment. It gives us a chance to build a foundation that honestly acknowledges each other's strengths and weaknesses, and I am hopeful that will help us build a happier partnership in the long run.
I can definitely see how it would be so devastating to have spent years with someone before these traits emerged. I'm actually very thankful that my SO and I never went through a period of "hyper-focus" and then abandonment that some people describe. I think that would have been really hard for me to handle because it would set you up to expect something so different than what was reality.
Although our relationship hasn't started in the most "romantic" of ways, and it seems like we came right out the gate with so many challenges, it also feels like the most honest relationship I've ever had. There was no fake me or fake him, the cards of who we really are were all on the table within the first year of knowing each other. I'm hopeful that will be the rock that we make the cornerstone of our relationship; truly knowing and truly choosing to accept each other for the good and the bad. I think we're up for the challenge and that we're on the right path.
Thanks for your thoughts! :)
I am so sorry. I feel your
Submitted by BFFJ on
I am so sorry. I feel your pain completely. It is so impossibly frustrating to be in love with someone so incredibly tough to deal with due to the aDD traits that come along no matter what. I have been with My add spouse for 18 years and I can tell you, not with a light heart, that you should get out now. It only gets worse with age, children, adult responsibilities. I had no idea how awful my spouse was with money and that I would be the Sole Provider after having two small kids rely on me as their mom and now provider. I would never have signed up to be an enabler and the one that has to plan everything organize everything pack everybody and make it all happen and come together plus a full-time job to support shelter and food and insurance. And even despite my doing all that and pulling the weight and then some to still be subject to the attacks that come with being with someone not regulated that continuously acts out and has bad behaviour and blames you. I am not saying this to scare you or to sway you but just to let you know what you are in store for as I had absolutely no idea and I desperately wish I had known before half my life is now gone. Now I have 2 small kids and an adult kid that I have financially had to separate myself from while married for fear that we would have become homeless without health insurance and at times food. I have a graduate degree and to see the spiraling downward happening financially without recognizing it at first it was eye-opening. Truly frightening and not fair to be in a marriage where you are not in a marriage where you are not partners in all senses: not a credit card or provider, organizer, cleaner..... You cannot count on the add spouse. You can only count on that spouse being consistently inconsistent. It is a lonely road . Looking back, would I do it again, even though I am desperately in love and have been in love with him the whole time. Sadly, I do not think I would at the risk of half your life being gone when you wake up and realize the burden you have taken and the effect on your life that it has daily weekly and monthly and time-wise on top of working full-time and being the financially responsible person and organizer you then read these sites and spend time that your spouse should, trying to get releief from the insanity that an adult spouse can not be an adult partner ....s hours upon hours once again on them trying desperately learning about the disease to no avail while they sit back and either are in the world of now or not now and if it's not now they are blissfully happy while you take care of everything and get blamed along the way when things don't go as the spouse feels and you react and get upset occasionally and you get blamed for their once again bad Behaviors.