Mansplaining: When you're talking to prove expertise rather than to connect with another person, the chances are high you're mansplaining.
OMG!!!! There is a word for this! This occurs not just in my marriage but also in the workplace, in family get-togethers, and in my own kitchen. In areas where I live and work, men take the high hand and use words without thinking that make me invisible and unheard. I have realized this before but now that there is a word for it, it is so much better to understand. I have been on committees where I was the chairman but a man would try to take the helm and I would have to fight for my right to my own more experienced opinion in my areas of work. H will tell me how to parent even though I have done 90% of the parenting. H tells me how to drive my car, how to eat, how to talk, how to clean, how to load the dishwasher, how to throw away the garbage. I can't tell you how many times I have said to him....."Duh....." But he doesn't stop...keeps telling me how to do what I am doing while I am in the process of doing it ... his mansplaining is not meant for us to connect but for other reasons. I often feel he does not talk to partner or share but out of habit and pure self aggrandizement.
It is nearly impossible to connect with him. He seems to need to have dominion over me or at least dominion in words and tone....always an ulterior motive behind what he says. As though in his world, I am the only place where he feels power over and needs that for his ego. Being vulnerable to other men but thinks he must put out a masculine tone and words with me.
"You put too much water in the sink for the dishes. You MUST only fill the sink 1/8 full or you are wasting water". We live nearly on top of Lake Michigan....What? We have water here. We use it. It evaporates. It goes back into the ground as rain here.
"You MUST pile up the dishwasher or you are wasting water." Then I must re-do half the dishes because the water does not have the room to get to them all.
"You catch more bees with honey." What? In other words..."shut-up". I already have a soft voice. HIS voice is authoritative even when he is asking for a favor.
"You MUST soak the glass jars to remove the paper labels before throwing them out." WTH?
"Nothing must go into the garbage disposal." WTH?
Let me turn this around for those of us who are accustomed to men telling women what and how to do things...... "Hold the hammer like this.....That way you won't hurt yourself. Lift that bag with your knees bent, that way you won't hurt your back. Use the razor in downward strokes, that way you won't give yourself a rash. ALWAYS unplug the electric plug when not using it so that the electricity is not wasted." "You catch more bees with honey." See how high and mighty (and unnecessary and stupid) this sounds?
I'm sure there is a word for women telling men how to do everything too. Oh yes, there are many: Nag, Bitch, and lots of other words that should not be put on social media.
Mansplaining. I'm glad there is a word for it.
Men Explain Things to Me
Submitted by jennalemone on
"His scorn was so withering, his confidence so aggressive, that arguing with him seemed a scary exercise in futility and an invitation to more insult."
Sometimes I wonder where my voice and my will went. I used to be able to navigate the world with some amount of confidence and clarity and wit.
"So caught up was I in my assigned role as ingénue that I was perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that"... I didn't know what I knew.
I no longer trust my own instincts. I don't speak with the attitude that I have an equal right to my own voice.
"Finally, I saw why I could never get our arguments out of my mind: None of my concerns were ever addressed. They were simply deflected onto me."
"I had stopped taking issue with his actions because I wasn’t allowed to, not because I felt better."
"In a healthy relationship, your partner hears you out if you’re upset, and their goal is to avoid upsetting you in the future, not to debate whether you should have been upset in the first place."
Italics are from: Rebecca Solnit author of "Men Explain Things to Me."
Jenna, This clarifies
Submitted by Zapp10 on
ME!............... HOLY COW!!!! Another moment where I am torn between WTH and anger....at myself.
Jenna....Splain'in
Submitted by kellyj on
Lucy....you got some splain'in to do! lol This is what my T called it too.
Think....."conceptually." That will splain it.
Caveman....make tool.....Caveman....no fool:)
J
Sheesh
Submitted by MLOwl on
"In a healthy relationship, your partner hears you out if you’re upset, and their goal is to avoid upsetting you in the future, not to debate whether you should have been upset in the first place."
That quote sums up any attempt I've ever had to explain my feelings to DH, it's a tiring, pointless debate that winds up in him blaming me like 90% of the time. There have been 2 or 3 times in our 7 year marriage that he actually *got it* and apologized but it was SO much work to get him there that I felt drained and even regretted trying in the first place. So I've accepted that I don't have a partner who genuinely cares about my feelings WITHIN the relationship. He's good at understanding my emotions outside the relationship, but he refuses to take responsibility for his behavior within in. So it's weird, yea I can talk to him about some things but NOT the most important things. I think I cope by whinning about the things that don't matter, which I need to change because I don't like how cynical I've become. :/
Thanks for the awesome share.
Oh yea
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I am so struck by this but that is because I have lately(with my new found voice) felt that when I am not with my H I may be talking too much. Especially if it is an area I feel I have more than some knowledge about.(who can talk about something they know nothing about? oh...yea...LOL) I have found myself looking back and thinking....I talked too much during that luncheon or I said too much in that conversation. It scares me that I am becoming like my H because of how long we have been together(osmosis)? It is so nice to talk WITH people who seem even half interested and I love hearing/learning NEW thoughts and ideas....and I LOVE funny stupid stories.
Anyone else think they pick up ADD traits without realizing it?
Hyperfocus
Submitted by kellyj on
Zapp....I think you are on to something here. What I notice...and wife has too because I asked her once to tell me what she sees?
She said sometimes I just check out for a moment...and then I'm back. When I realized what she was seeing....what she was seeing was me hyperfocusing. I can tell you.....when I hyperfocused....I am as far from being "checked out" as you could possibly be. It may look like day dreaming....but I am deep and intently on thought and I'm not really present with what is going on around me including noticing what my wife is doing, how she feeling, and how she's reacting. When I do that....I'm not empathizing at all. I'm so much inside my head (not day dreaming or meandering mentally)that I'm not noticing or hearing anything else going on around me. My brain is in full tilt boogie mode and I'm thinking about only what I'm thinking about. There's no room in there for anything (or anybody else) that's for sure.
When I snap back out of it.....I'm here again and not where I was anymore. It's like a short acid trip and then I come back to reality again.lol
This is what I've come to learn. In order to be present and with my wife when I'm with her. I've got to stay out of hyper focus mode and do that at another time. I can stop it and pull myself out now...in order to do this.
So those mind melting explanations of the universe....are just reporting back everything you learned when you were on your acid trip to somewhere else. Like when you come home from vacation and tell someone what you saw while you were there. No joke.
What I have come to learn is......not everyone does this. lol ( I'm being factitious )
And when you get into it or am angry with your H ( or am afraid and filled with fear).....your all in your head too ( just like hyperfocusing) and not hearing or listening to what he might be saying. The same with me. That's not empathizing or paying attention to what he's doing, saying,or feeling....your just splain'in. There you go.
If your talking and thinking about what you are saying.....you aren't thinking about, hearing or listening to what the other person is trying to say to you.
My T did this in our counseling sessions a couple of times by interupting me and saying..."get out of your head and come back in the room"....which might have been a rude thing to do if it wasn't for the fact that he knew I knew what he was saying. And it only took a couple of times for me to go...."oops"....I'm talking and thinking but not listening and feeling. My T has ADD too so he knows....and I know he knows! lol
Talking and thinking........and conceptually speaking that is. Cave man make tool. lol
Listening and feeling.....and empathizing and responding. Which is relating with another person.
I can't hyperfocus and talk at the same time. My auditory and speech functions are temporary turned off! lol Not entirely but almost.
This has happened countless times with my wife. She'll say something....and I'll actually respond directly to what she's saying by relating something I'm thinking about but directly related to what she said. She'll get pissy and accuse me of not listening to her. Which I respond by saying..."I was responding to what you were saying by saying what I was saying"....and both of us start "splain'in" what we were saying to each other ....and neither one of us hears each other and no one is empathizing at all anymore. All we're doing is splain'in to each other...what we were trying to splain before we started splain'in...... and that's just talking too much and not enough listening. lol
The thing is....hyperfocusing is really useful if your making tools........Caveman....no fool. lol
Not so useful for having a conversation with however :)
If any of that makes any sense?:)
J
Osmosis?
Submitted by jennalemone on
I understand this too. At this age I found the best advice to give my children and grandchildren. You ARE the company you keep. So many habits, perspectives, speech, even the way we look and dress and how we spend our time is influenced by the people we choose to hang around with the most.
Yep...Omosis Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
That's a good way to say it. Funny thing I remembered. One of my college professors once said...."mostly, what I do is create sponges...who just go out into the world and when you squeeze them....all that comes out is exactly what I put in. That's not why we're here!!!"
J
I'm like that, too. I will go
Submitted by Shalott on
I'm like that, too. I will go out with friends and have to stop myself from talking so much, but when you live with a spouse and a child with ADHD, it's really hard to ever get a word in edgewise!
Jenna, thanks. this is
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Jenna, thanks. this is familiar.
Ringing Some Bells Here
Submitted by kellyj on
Jenna...I really can sooo relate to this. I've been on both side of it in the past....but I had no idea WHY? Why did I feel like you did? Why do THEY keep doing this too me? Why don't I have a voice or any control when someone does this with me? Why do I do this sometimes and people get frustrated or angry with me? Why don't I know what I want? WHY, WHY WHY?
I think I can shine a light here on some of these things just to point out the answers that I know so far? And what's up with that authoritative tone? Imperious? Fatherly? Motherly? Condescending? Patronizing? Arrogant? Superior? I think this is part of the reason why it makes you feel small and unheard? Parent child dynamic? I think it is?
Nagging or bitching is not being authoritative. Nagging or bitching is being more like a child. Whiny? Complaining? Unhappy that what ever is happening is not to your liking and verbally acting on it..... instead of simply saying......"You know....I don't like what's going on here." That's the truth....so why say that....by bitching, nagging and complaining? Bitching and whining isn't actually saying what you mean in an honest and direct fashion....it's more like an infant who cry's when they're hungry but can't speak the words to tell you that's what they want?
"You put too much water in the sink for the dishes." Why?
"You MUST only fill the sink 1/8 full or you are wasting water". Why?
" We live nearly on top of Lake Michigan....What? We have water here. We use it. It evaporates. It goes back into the ground as rain here." But "why" ?
Obviously....you feel there's plenty of water where you live and that small amount isn't causing a problem ( having a real impact of the environment or causing global warming or something?) I feel the same way. We have plenty of water where we live too and that small amount isn't a problem. We don't have water shortages or droughts to worry about. That's the only reason I can think of as too why?
And I clearly understood you when you said this. (since your not here to answer me to tell me I'm correct....for the sake of argument....lets assume that I am. My gut is telling me that too, so I will just keep moving forward) And the reason WHY I'm taking that chance?
Because I'm trying to show you something so you can see it. I'm not trying to explain something or share something necessarily.....however....I can relate to it...and I share the same feelings as you do. Moving forward....
In this case....we share the same feelings about the water and I agree with you. But why MUST you only use so much water to fill the sink to wash the dishes? Only your husband can tell you that since you and I still have no idea the reason why he's so adamant about that? Who says? You? Or was it something that you just heard or someone told you? What are the reasons for how you feel? Give supporting evidence to back your claim? Explain your feelings so I can understand why this is so important to you? Give me some idea or something that will let me know how you feel about the amount of water that is necessary to clean dishes and not be too much? And how would you know?
Instead of saying "YOU MUST do this....." Explain to me your fixation with conserving water since....I don't agree with you or see this the same as you but more importantly.....".WTF's up with this thing you have about water Dude?" lol
Please advise? (your H in this case )
"I no longer trust my own instincts. I don't speak with the attitude that I have an equal right to my own voice." If someone is talking AT you and not to you. They're putting words in your mouth or trying to make you agree with them by not giving you the chance not to. (why you have no voice I think)
As my wife has said in moments when I tried to pin here down with my reverse 20 questions deducting reasoning to assertain and answer she seems unwilling to give me (asking why and she refuses to answer me, stonewalls, or blames it on me)....and then finally....she would blurt out at the end....."well.....you could say NO"
Let's back up here to your H and his water fixation. "you MUST do this to save water" Why?
blah, blah, blah, blah, Jenna, blah, blah, blah, YOU, blah, blah, blah, Water, blah, blah, blah YOU MUST, blah, blah, YOU, blah, blah, blah, Jenna, blah, blah,blah...that's why.
Or
"well, you could say No if I didn't do that because I have a water fixation and this causes me a great amount of distress to see water wasted on any scale....reasonable or not. That's why.
"Oh I see.....but I don't agree. I don't have a water fixation but if that will ease your mind over this....I'll do that for YOU if it bothers you that much."
or
"Oh I see....but I don't agree. Sounds like a personal problem and one I don't have. I don't believe this is hurting anything even if you wastes a cup or two of water and it's not hurting anything. Have you ever measured the amount of water needed (exactly to the cup) of how much water you need to effectively wash the dishes down to that degree. I don't know that either and never bothered to figure it out since.....it's such a small amount we're talking about.....it never even crossed my mind? Not saying your wrong....but my gut tells me what I'm doing is reasonable and I'm just going to keep doing it this way if I'm the one doing it ........and you can do it any way you want if your the one doing it and we can just call it good right there.....because that's how I feel about it. That's why?"
This isn't your answer I know. This is only narrowing down the "WHY" since he can't tell you himself. Neither one of those works (or have in the past with me...more lately yes but not then and we still have this issue)
and I'm not saying this to tell you what to do either....I'm still trying to show you something and I will use one more example...and I'm also not assuming...you don't know this already yourself. If anything as I already said.....I feel the same way you do about the water and have no idea why your H is so focused on it?
Insight.......In common law, there is a thing called the prudent man rule which states..."The prudent man rule directs trustees "to observe how men of prudence, discretion and intelligence manage their own affairs, not in regard to speculation, but in regard to the permanent ..."..."in regard to:
the needs of beneficiaries;
the need to preserve the estate (or corpus of the trust);
and the amount and regularity of income.
As I have come to learn how this works...it comes down to the discretion of the judge when something falls in between the cracks of the "letter of the law" and cannot be exactly defined by statute.
In other words.....it's a judgment call . And when something so small and insignificant...and the impact to:
the needs of the beneficiaries (you the dishwasher) ,
the needs to preserve the estate (the environment),
and the amount and regularity of income (the amount of water you use and how often you use that amount )
The prudent man(or woman) by all means to gage this would go "what I'm doing is reasonable and prudent...and the amount of water I'm using is not excessive."
I think this is why you are right and why I feel the same way you do. That's why.
(gavel...slam)....case dismissed. Trust your gut....just because he doesn't agree with your gut....doesn't mean it isn't right.
The fallacious argument (or dishonest one and not saying how you feel ) Arguementum Ad Poplum...just because many believe it to be true........does not mean it is true.
J
sincerity and humor
Submitted by Zapp10 on
OMG! J! Your " gavel...slam...case dismissed" made me laugh..
My H used to say "that's it. Case closed" with our girls which infuriated them. It truly was not fair to them as these were opportunities for him to show them how to "learn to compromise" and how people who don't agree can come to mutual understanding. He would hit them with this right off the bat before any discussion could take place on their request. I know now where it came from but at the time I was dumbfounded and......yet what did I do? Went right along with him.....because even though he never said it to me.......that "invisible" line was there to not cross......sigh. It was a shame he was "jealous?" "envious?" of my relationship with them and I see now that my trying to tell him I simply talk WITH them NOT AT them was me/him dealing with the unknown ADD. This, he kind of sees now, played a part in his interaction with them and it makes him sad. He absolutely loves his girls. He was and is a good dad. He is burden by the fact he could have done so much better and different and instead of moving on from the guilt he stays there....it's his comfort zone. Even our youngest sees him living in guilt and regret and will get up and leave when he gets that look on his face and remarks on his regret. It can come on him in the most happy occasions. ...
I honestly believe he will stay there and I just can't. Where is the fun, joy and laughter? It went away 7 years ago and I am going looking for it.....case closed!
You said something in your response to my last post(the one on talking too much) that really struck me and I thank you for that. There was a lot of helpful info and I am taking it all in.
Good grief! I forget the reason for my post.....my H has trouble with emotions(no big surprise) I have often wondered why he could not be sincere without being so obviously uncomfortable. Not so sure it's all ADD. I try gentle humor a lot in trying to discuss something of a serious nature and he will focus on the humor and add sarcasm and he's off and running......which is of course what he wants because the "discussion" is not where he wants to go. FRUSTRATION!!!!!
This Is Where I Have Failed Many Times Myself.....Zapp
Submitted by kellyj on
My H used to say "that's it. Case closed" with our girls which infuriated them. It truly was not fair to them as these were opportunities for him to show them how to "learn to compromise" and how people who don't agree can come to mutual understanding. He would hit them with this right off the bat before any discussion could take place on their request. I know now where it came from but at the time I was dumbfounded and......yet what did I do? Went right along with him.....because even though he never said it to me.......that "invisible" line was there to not cross......sigh.
That process that I just went through with Jenna....is a silent process when I'm with my wife. I come to those conclusions (alone) before I say anything.....all that you might hear me say is..."what I'm doing is reasonable and prudent...and the amount of water I'm using is not excessive."
That's a little clinical and "legalese" sounding...but in reality...I might just say " I don't think that's an excessive amount of water....why do you say that?"
Or something like that. This is what sends my wife into a tail spin because she doesn't have an answer ( as I now understand this) Instead...she gets defensive...and says I'm being judgmental or calls me an asshole???? For asking the question? I don't understand?
Before....I would react or respond to her and trying to splain why I asked the question in the first place and say I was not being judgmental. (defensive) This was taking the bait..... and turned into a battle of trying to be reasonable (or reasoning) against circular reasoning and being unreasonable that could go on for hours. Round and round.
Either that....or she would only respond with "I don't want to talk to you when you do that" (gavel ...slam) case dismissed.
What I've come to learn here with my wife is ..."I don't want to talk to you about it" (huh? why? ) means.....I don't have an answer.
But that's not what she says. And even if she says ...."I don't want to talk to you right now"...implying we will revisit it later....when later comes.....later never existed in the first place since she still didn't have an answer and that was jus stalling (or stonewalling) Even more confusing since "right now" to means to me...later on but not now? Even more frustration and confusion on my part???
In either case....she's not saying what she really means and is not being honest. This part....is crystal clear to me. What I now know from having those questions thrown back in my face....(slam the gavel....case closed).....one blanket statement says it all...."I don't want to talk to you"....is a defense from actually saying...."I don't know. I don't have a good reason"....which is actually a time bomb waiting to go off. Anything I'd say in response to that one was going no where fast. KaBoom! lol And that would just blow up in my face. (her)
She would do anything or say anything...before she'd say...."I don't know." If I actually 20 questioned her to get her to say that....I was being abusive for wanting an honest answer. Saying "I don't know" just to start with was like pulling teeth just to get that first response...but that time...if we even got that far....was where all the accusations start flying in my direction in fact....the only consistent response to my question was an opinion...not an answer. And I never hear...."well, this is how I feel about this......".....because she doesn't know? " I don't know how I feel or simply...."I don't know"...would have been fine with me. I can live with that even if it doesn't tell me why?
Backing up here...."You MUST only use this amount of water for doing dishes"
"I don't think that's excessive...why do you say that?"
"Your wasting water and that's too much"
"Yes...but why do you say that?"
"Your being a judgmental asshole."
"Possibly...but why do you say that?"
"You always have to have things your way!"
"ahhhhh....but why do you say that?"
"You always have to be right or win !!!!!"
"This isn't about winning or being right....I just want to know why you say that?"
"I don't want to talk to you!!!"
"All I want to know is why do you say that?"
"Leave me alone...your a judgmental asshole!!!!"
"That may be true....but I still want to know why you say that?" lol
on ...and....on......and.....on.....and.....on.
This was before I figured out that saying "I don't know" is a catastrophic event for my wife.
But it still leaves you not knowing where that magic line is or being too much...or not enough since I don't have a specific exact water line amount that's either too much...or not enough? And I can't know what that is until she tells me and she won't answer the question that will let me know what that is? All she'd do is say.....that's too much....or.....that's not enough??? How frustrating is that??
Obviously...there is a magic line there somewhere and only she knows what that is but she not sharing that info with me? lol
But she knows when it's too much....and she know's when it's too little....and that part she will tell you each and every time!!!
Case closed...slam!!
Jesus....HELP ME!!!!!!!! lol
and the Papa bear said....."who's been sleeping in my BED!!!"
In which Goldilocks replied " your an asshole...leave me alone!!!"
I rest my case. LOL
J
Do unto others as WAS done to you...
Submitted by Zapp10 on
You are absolutely right. I figured out years ago that H was saying to them (NO) because THAT was said to him as a child. And he didn't know why, then,and couldn't see that what he hated being done to him as a child he followed suit(unknowingly?) with his own children. Not ADD but coupled with it a double whammy for those involved.
It's the same thing with Xmas presents. It didn't matter so much what they wanted.....it was what he wanted for them which always appeared, to me,to have a strange parallel to what he wanted and never got as a little boy.....and were very often NOT AFFORDABLE for us but oh....WE just have to get this for THEM......yea right...(not according to the world as I saw it)
Keep up the dialog exchanges J. So so true they are..... I'm thinking they might even help you (just a little) to vent(without LOSING it) and you frame it so well, like many others here do........and it is so wonderful to laugh....even when I am laughing all by myself.:-)
Zapp....Thank You ;)
Submitted by kellyj on
For pointing this out... I'm thinking they might even help you (just a little) to vent(without LOSING it).
If you ever wondered where my passive aggressiveness comes from....this is it!! As C would say....this is the cross I have to bear. Trying to figure out and determine ahead of time.....each magic line as I come to them since my wife can't say what they are.... means......each time we get to a new one.....I get blamed for not being a mind reader!! errrrrrrrr! whew!! And that's the only way I know that one.....
(Ninja Warrior...Ninja Warrior.....Ninja Warrior.....be strong..... you can do it..... don;'t give up....hold on......lol )
One magic line down........50,000000 to go! lol
My Coke Machine analogy. If my wife was a Coke machine.....you'd put the coins in and out would come a Coke....but each time you go reach for it.....a Baseball comes firing out from a hole and hits you in the face. But if you try and stand to the side and reach around to get the Coke next time.....the Baseball will find you like a heat seaking missile and hit you in the face anyway no mater where you move or stand in order to avoid it.
My new way around this? Where a Catcher's mask! Ha! Fool me once....shame on you!! Fool me 500 more times and go to the sporting goods store! lol
J
About doing unto others as WAS done to you
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Zapp, I think you've put your finger on something that I haven't well understood yet, but I think it's a major piece of relationship problems. I suspect that there is a pretty good professional literature on it, but I don't know
I started to get an inkling of what you're talking about when once a long time ago, out of the blue, someone who didn't know me at all made a generalization about me that was huge...and it didn't fit anything going on in the present, as far as I could tell. I thought, "where the heck did THAT come from?"
Maybe its that until we can see ourselves doing it and figure out how to decouple it & replace it with better, we tend to copy someone else's way of dealing with a situation, and import it as a whole piece into a new situation.
If we were mistreated as kids, we are liable to mistreat someone, sooner or later. Its got a plus side: If we were allowed to play, we encourage others to play.
LOL I think this copycatting of what was done to us in the past gets duplicated and applied to other people right down to the words and the tones of voice.
It seems such a simple thing, but I think it's pretty powerful. As you said about your husband, he was doing to his kids what he himself hated having done to him.
NON....Coming Back Here ....
Submitted by kellyj on
"I think this copycatting of what was done to us in the past gets duplicated and applied to other people right down to the words and the tones of voice."
As my T described this....."the abused takes a piece of the abuser along with them...and they re-enact that same behavior later each time something reminds them of that experience again."
Think about it. If you're an undiagnosed child with ADHD....and you're acting out on those behaviors....and you're parents aren't aware of it either.....what do you think that will look like and how do you think a parent..... might possibly respond to a child who has no control of their ADHD symptoms what so ever?
Now play that back in the future when you are an adult and get into that parent child dynamic that is almost a given.....between a husband and wife with things like house chores and responsibilities that are exactly the main complaint here on this forum and the behavior that appears....child like?
Bullseye! Even if it's not abuse now between two adults ( or by the non-ADHD) that's what it feels like to a person with ADHD.....what ever experience you learn from having ADHD as a child and the treatment you received back then.....will revisit itself again and again each times you find yourself in the same situation. I can tell you....that's what it feels like for sure even if it's not the same thing now and there nothing you can do to stop that feeling even when you know it.....it's a conditioned response and it gets triggered by ANYTHING that reminds you of that past experience in the same way.
And if you aren't aware of this.....before you know it....you're re-enacting or re-living that same Hell you lived through back then......now in the present time. I think this is a pretty predictable situation for almost anyone who has ADHD.
I don't think you are just speculating here....I know you're right because that's exactly what I've done in my past and the exact reasons for it. Exactly!
This part....I am absolutely sure of and it's been confirmed and reminded to me many times by my T in order to un-condition myself from that horrible feeling and not react to it anymore.
Good call....you're right on the money.
J
Zapp...Coming Back Here....EX Wife Avoidant - Lining Up
Submitted by kellyj on
I just remembered something with my ex wife that was remarkably similar (if not exactly the same thing) with some things that she said and did along with her past history growing up.
It's the same thing with Xmas presents. It didn't matter so much what they wanted.....it was what he wanted for them which always appeared, to me,to have a strange parallel to what he wanted and never got as a little boy.....and were very often NOT AFFORDABLE for us but oh....WE just have to get this for THEM......yea right...(not according to the world as I saw it)
And not according to the world as I saw it....my ex wife would do this.......
Every time we went over to some ones house for a party or house warming....she would do normally accepted polite thing (when appropriate)...by bringing some kind of house warming gift. Normally? A bottle of wine or some kind of food right? No problem there....but she would go out and spend (at times)...in excess of $60 or more for that gift? For some that might be a reasonable amount to spend based on what they have....but even then in comparison to what everyone else would bring (even for those who could easily afford more with no problem) ...it was excessive and it stood out when you'd put on the table with everyone else's gifts? Same with wedding presents or personal gifts? (same thing you were saying)
I use to put my foot down and say "who are you trying to impress here? Yourself or the people you are buying these things for? It really doesn't impress anyone in fact....it kind of stands out and looks like your trying to prove something."
She had no explanation other than to get silent, never acknowledge except with non-answer.....and then just proceeded to keep doing it anyway with no regard for the fact that we absolutely could not afford these things with the budget we were living within. Even to the point of me getting angry after the fact and saying it looks really "superficial". And she would say "yes....it's superficial" completely non-fluxed.....but not explain any further.
That was a even different version of not wanting to say "I don't know?"..... and completely agreeing with me (no confrontation or fight)...and then just keep doing it behind my back or right in front on me anyway without hesitation.? Totally indifferent to me.
I think that's the version of "tell them what they want to hear...and do it anyway." That had a more arrogant way of being dismissive without getting angry and actually knowing what it was but keeping it a secret. This did manifest itself into living a more ...."secret life on the side"....and pretending to live another one at the same time. She was very pretentious....that's for sure.
In my wife's defense here....she's not pretentious and wears her feelings and thought right on her sleeve where you can see them. She is not deceptive and very reliable and consistent and keeps no secrets from anyone including me. I'm the same way and we line up well together on that much even though she is dismissive and I'm anxious preoccupied by default.
There is one thing I have personally learned from my past experiences with Attachment styles/theory. It's not just a theory....it's describing something very real but can't actually being scientifically proven yet (why it's a theory).
Before I was diagnosed and was not "secure" in my attachments to people and things. I felt insecure. When I was single before I first got married.....I didn't feel insecure at all and pretty self confident. Once I hooked up with my ex wife (who was dismissive/avoidant)....I became insecure and slowly started becoming avoidant myself in my behavior. But the underlying insecurity was coming from my anxious preoccupied insecure attachment and that was the foundation for our co-dependent relationship together. Once we got divorced....I returned to being secure again.
At the time...I didn't know any of this...but I saw myself go from secure...to insecure anxious.....the co-dependent avoidant vacillating from feeling insecure (while anxious preoccupied)...to a little less insecure and more self confident but now acting more avoidant with being more arrogant and self righteous myself. That's three different tendencies in personality traits at different stages of feeling less secure...to feeling more secure.....but never really being secure again until we were divorced and returning to who I really was before I was married.
This can get really confusing if you are inside this dynamic because you've got three different feeling going on here. Secure....insecure anxious....and more indifferent insecure /avoidant ....and then returning to Secure again.
Those are actually the "feelings" that indicated each stage I was in. The avoidant/dissisve like my ex-wife...made my anxious preoccupied go right off the cliff when it came to feeling insecure. That secret life she had...and just avoiding everything (including me) made me the most insecure feeling of all. She was in that respect...the most like my father which really hit those insecurities. My ex wife was pretentious and falsely self confident and very superficial to the point...she knew it and had no problem even admitting it like it was something to be proud of?
And to counter the insecure feelings that this created in my own attachment to her....I became avoidant myself.
What's really interesting about that is....when I became more secure avoidant....was when my ex wife would call me an asshole but not before? How about that one to throw into this mix?
And now....I don;t feel insecure any more and that feels great really. I can be happy most of the time even if my wife is not. But if she wears me down and I faulter a bit.....my default is still anxious preoccupied not avoidant like my ex wife ....but when that happens now....I don't get insecure....I get angry now instead. Interesting isn't it?
But falter now means not returning to being insecure feeling...falter is more in the moment due to circumstance or times of weakness and when that happens....my evil twin anxious preoccupied rises to the surface and he's not very nice person to be around when that happens. Mr Passive Aggressive is his name.....B...I...N...G...O....and Mr Passive Aggressive is his name- O. ( and he's Lame-O lol )
I thought I would just point out the corollary which might help you see these things in yourself or you H as I have come to see them for mysleve comparing them to who I am/was with and the dynamic that happens in co-dependant relationships and the different hats that you wear depending on.
J
Attachyment Theory...."Dissmissive"
Submitted by kellyj on
I just realized....this is a really good example of "Dismissive Style" in attachment theory. My wife that is. And if I'm not staying centered or balanced....my default is "anxious preoccupied"...which is me here......."but I need to know WHY???"
Why?
Dismissive.
Why?
Dismissive
Why?
Dismissive
Round and round. It always takes two to Tango as they say.
If I'm staying centered which is most of the time......I'm not invested in needing to know WHY? I pretty much can figure that out on my own in the same way I did in my run down but adding what I know to answer the question for my wife even if she can't for her slef.
The answer ...."she doesn't know" no mater what she says to the contrary or throws that back in my face.....the answer is...."I don't know."
And I don't need to know any of this other than....how to avoid being dismissed in the first place and predict it ahead of time in order to do that. But for my wife and my expecting her not to be this way....is like asking a Cat to be a Dog...and expecting it not to scratch the furniture.
That's a lot to ask of a Cat unless you get them declawed in order to prevent scratches on the furniture which would be a lot to ask of my wife....all things considered. But then again....she not a Cat either and has a Cerebral Cortex...I do still expect a bit more from her and to learn from her mistakes which is why I'm here trying to learn from mine:)
J
Stupid Trigger meet Selfish Trigger
Submitted by jennalemone on
Thanks for reading and responding. It is good to know that someone can relate to these frustrations.
My response, at the time, to the water dilemma was this - When I told him that we don't have a water drought or shortage in Wisconsin - the water evaporates and rains here----even had my chemist cousin back me up on this, he changed from his original reason (Public Radio is his Holy Gospel and wasting water is a hot topic) from that I was "wasting water" to ... Then, then, then I was wasting ELECTRICITY, yeah, that's it, I was wasting electricity, by HEATING too much water. So I Googled and calculated how much it would cost to heat a full sink full of water for each time I did dishes in the sink. I also Googled and calculated how much it costs to keep the lights on, the TV on, and the radio on every night which is his habit all night. Then I made a graph showing how much each would cost citeing my sources. His habits of keeping lights on was about 500 times the cost of my heating 2 gallons of water for washing dishes with a sink full of hot water per year. Oh. That was not the way to handle it. I thought he would laugh and admit defeat, but NO! He started a tirade about everything that is wrong with me ATTACK, ATTACK Will Robinson!
What I learned. H has a BIG stupid trigger. He, like your wife, will not entertain the thought that he is wrong (or stupid). I should know this because he spends hours every day doing every daily crossword puzzle available trying to "know" things (and all day listening to Public Radio). He has NEVER said "I am sorry" or "I don't know". Especially "I don't know". He does not want to THINK of himself as stupid or not knowing everything or being wrong.....stupid
I spent some time in course work to learn what my trigger is. That thing that is unconsciously stopping me from being whole and real. My trigger in life is "I don't want to think that I am selfish". I don't want other people to think I am selfish or self centered. I am not at all selfish but that is the thing with triggers. It is the thing you work at most of all to NOT be. H works hard at NOT being stupid. at NOT looking stupid. at showing people he is NOT stupid.
I work hard at NOT being selfish or thinking I am selfish or looking selfish. I am NOT selfish.
So, Your wife, J, is NOT stupid. But she is afraid that she IS stupid if she is not carefully protecting her fear of being stupid or being called stupid. She WILL NOT say "I don't know". That might make her LOOK stupid or admit that she thinks she might be stupid. You and I will never get our spouses to say, "I don't know".
I will never say "Because I WANT it, that is why." I can't allow myself to WANT something.....that would be and sound selfish....I don't permit myself that. THAT is exactly my problem in relationships. I don't allow myself to WANT or NEED or ASK for things for my SELF. AND the result for being that way is that I don't know what I want, don't get I want, am resentful that I don't have what I wanted. Can't let people know what I want. i lost my SELF because to have a SELF, I might be or appear to be SELFISH. Selfish Trigger. I am afraid of being selfish. (partly due to my religious upbringing and being feminine.)
Being aware of these things is helpful I guess. I may not understand but I am starting to accept. Knowing I have this fear of being or appearing selfish, I GET to permit myself to BE a little selfish. I GET to ask and give myself things I want and need. This is painful for me in a way someone with a stupid trigger could never understand. AND I cannot understand how someone cannot say, "I don't know" or "I was wrong." But I can know that and I had better accept that.
yes, jenna
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Oh the lights left on!!!! I am with you there! Kudos to you for PROVING financially the real impact. Sorry he didn't rise to the occasion like you thought he would.....once again, we get caught "off guard" thinking we "know" them and then ........."BOOM"
What you say about the selfish concern....my 2 cents....I don't know if I can explain my thought well on this....
I suspect you are not too far from me.....I would rather give or do for others because I LIKE to do that...with my time, money or even giving of my own things. I just enjoy that. Giving to myself is not a priority because I am pretty basic in my needs. I strive for contentment and peace. I can do without most things BUT I do enjoy some things. Yes, I tell myself no on a lot of things so when I say yes...I am good with it. I too have been concerned with being selfish and after consideration and thought I have come to realize that the only time I feel selfish is interacting with my spouse. I am NOT saying he MAKES me feel that way but....there is something there that makes me feel that way. Is it because I have needs I would love him to meet and he can't.....selfish, I can't help him I can only help me.....selfish, I use to feel special to him now I don't.....selfish, I am tired of the effort.....selfish, I'd like to have fun easy conversation with him.......selfish.(keep it simple stupid or he goes on overload) I don't know Jenna but I am beginning to see I am NOT selfish in anyone else's eyes save maybe my spouses......and considering his "issue" and not dealing with it.....who's being selfish? and around and around we go....
Heads high, Jenna. We are special to many people and we focus on ......one? OH! Love the Will Robinson reference! I remember...DANGER! DANGER!.....scared me to death!
tired of being shut down
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I lost all my desires, hopes, dreams, ambitions......you name it.....it's just gone. I often feel like there is something seriously wrong with me because there's nothing there. I even have a hard time looking in the mirror, because I don't feel like a woman anymore, let alone a desirable one.
I used to be pretty, and had many men always coming on to me. I didn't encourage that, but I''ve always been a bubbly outgoing, happy person with a smile. I'm not blaming this all on my husband. Being held at a distance most of our marriage, being criticized, no hugs kisses attention or affirmations of love have made me feel so unloved and unwanted, and not getting sex unless I initiated it first, ( which he often refused,to where it was non existent) makes me feel like I am the stupidest person on earth.
No matter HOW I tried to address these issues, he would shut me down. I never called him names, didn't put him down, we never had scream fests, ad a LOT of the things I've read on here before. It still doesn't matter, he 's been in love with someone else all this time,which he said he couldn't TELL me about. He said TELLING me about it sooner would have been selfish of him. HuH? That makes no sense. Now because I left, he says he wants to save the marriage. And, he's been upset because he says I don't call him enough.
Me not calling him shows how little we were ACTUALLY talking. He would call me from work, once or twice a day, TELL me what he's doing, come home, then talk to me about 2minutes before rushing upstairs to be on his computer The rest of the night. And then he'd tell me about "this and that"' for a couple minutes at night. So, mainly he talked, I listened, and he LIKED it that way. If I started talking, he would ask me, "Is this going to take very long?" Cut me off, and go back to his computer
You can be shut down and shut OUT, only so long before you don't care anymore. And that's where I'm at right now. I want him to have a good life, And I want the best for him. I don't want to be a part of it any more. He's trying to make me feel guilty for not putting more effort into this. But, I''ve lost the will and "want to" to DO this any longer.
He thinks my daughter has brainwashed me to "get away from him"'"., which makes me laugh. No, she didn't do anything to influence me. I left because of the things HE did and told me about. How's that for denial?
Dear Dede
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
((( you )))
Hold firm to your wellbeing Dede. I hope you call when you decide to call. You, not he, will know when its right.
You told a lot of truth.
The erasure of self view through years of being handled as if a person were a cipher.
I'm glad you're doing for you, now. ((( Dede )))
Shame Trigger...Doing What Feels Wrong....Wow Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
I think you stated that extremely well. I think at the heart of anything that feels like insecurity is shame. It can be a powerful emotion that can take you over and do the very thing that described. Those mixed messages again...mostly just societal norms and religious constructs really.
Those voices in your head (and all those people in there telling you those things) .... who aren't really there that you are trying to please or satisfy. They really are just ghosts or specters and in reality....just concepts. This concept that all men and woman are supposed to be what ever those concept tells you to be. (not being the ball)
I think anytime you are serving some concept first instead of yourself....you truly are betraying who you really are and putting yourself second. And it you are putting yourself second and have convinced yourself of that....the perfect compliment to that is someone who always puts themselves first. How perfect is that?
Look at how ironic that is? You have a selfish trigger that prevents you from being the least bit selfish which makes you give away too much in service of someone else. (which sub consciously...you were already taught to do before you ever met your H even that long ago)
If you stand back and look at just that by itself.....it does show you your part or half of the equation....no matter who you are with or where you go.....it makes you appear meek or passive on the outside because that fits the model and that "story" again. That story is just a concept or construct made up by someone else. Someone meaning society at large. (bullshit, bullshit, bullshit!!! lol) It's not real. But you are. You're real and alive and a person with your own wants and desires and dreams that are there....but have suppressed and pushed down and hidden from you by that shame again. It's such a powerful weapon against yourself and causes you to betray who you are.
Shame doesn't exist to hurt you and make you live in fear and insecurity. It's just an emotion that's there to tell you what to do. It's just one of the many sign posts in the road that directs us towards or away from any direction you are heading.
The problem with shame is....it causes you to go away from the road at the fork with the sign that says....DO NOT ENTER....and go down or towards the road marked...This Way to Societal Norms and Religious Constructs- Welcome Come on In and Have a Nice Day :).....with only images, ghosts and fairy tales (stories) that don't even exist. There's nothing down that road and it's empty and deserted and all you do is betray yourself each time you take that fork in the road.
There's no Love, Hope and Support for anything you are looking for down that road and if those are the choices....nothing from nothing.....so of course you don't know what you want. If those are your only choices ....what other choices do you have? All that's down that rode is a big empty black hole of despair and insecurity that sucks the life right out of you along with the air that you breathe. You want to talk about Hell? That's Hell on earth....that's the only Hell that exists in my personal opinion. That's the perversion of the "word" that got mixed up with the concept and NOT of Jesus was really telling us to do all along. That's what the parables and stories of the bible were talking about not the one in some after life that was misinterpreted into the stories you heard and were taught. (IMHO)
That's the rode you been on and it's a trap right at the sign post and you were deceived to believe in right from the git go. Forked Tongue? I think it is? Why do you think you feel so bad right now? Feeling bad is a feeling and it feels wrong doesn't it? That tells you something? That feeling is telling you something is wrong...but the sign said ......Welcome Come On In (and have a nice day :)
If you go back to the fork and remove that sign.....underneath it is says ..."Highway to Hell...Enter At Your Own Risk...Sponsored By....The Makers of "BULLSHIT".. the "Adopt an Insecurity and Self Loathing Neurotic Complex Program" the "Creators of Societal and Religious Constructs and Concepts"...and "Your Local Public Talk Radio Station"...Have a Nice Day. aka....."Todays Topic Boys and Girls"....."How to Lose Friends and Alienate People While Betraying Yourself at the Same Time...All for Zero Down...and Using Other Peoples Money......With No Personal Investment What So Ever on Your Own Accord."
That's a bit different...than the sign on the front put there by those sponsors. "EEEE HAAW! Boys and Girls....That's slicker'n deer guts on a door knob and a warm apple sauce enema!!!! Woo peee!! (to the voice of Slim Pick'ins ) Now that's what I'm talking about! lol
Meanwhile....the sign that says DO NOT ENTER that feels wrong when you start to follow your true feelings...has been covered over and underneath that sign really says.....ROAD TO REDEMPTION AND PERSONAL ENLIGHTENMENT....brought to you by "THE REAL DEAL" ie " JESUS, THE BUDDHA AND THE ENTIRETY OF HUMANITY": AND " EVERY SPIRITUAL HEALER AND TEACHER THAT HAS EVER EXISTED ON THE PLANET EARTH".....and the "WHO KNOWS WHERE THAT WILL TAKE PROGRAM...ONCE YOU ONCE YOUR DEAD AND GONE"....(legal disclaimer) WE CAN'T SEE THAT FAR INTO THE FUTURE THAT OR WE WOULD HAVE POSTED THAT INFORMATION.
(IMHO...just one mans personal interpretation ...Have a Beautiful Life :)
J
your texts made me cry
Submitted by dedelight4 on
J, and Now, your texts made me cry a LOT. The tears are healing though. J, what you said about shame was right on target. I 're-'re-read your post several times.
I feel shame because I ALLOWED this to happen to me thinking what I was doing was "right"'. Yes, it is those voices of "should", religious voices of "being good", and "the husband SHoULD" be the head of the house" whether they can do it or not. But, the scriptures also say HOW a husband is to love his wife. (which doesn't get emphasized much at all. Pastors love to preach about wives "submitting", but not on husbands "loving".
With having a severely abusive childhood, being abandoned by my parents at a young age, and being raised in an abusive YET "super religious" home set the stage for my life.
Of course I did what our religion said we SHOULD do, which was marry someone within our religion, right out of high school. And of course HE was physically abusive as well. Another statistic.
I really thought I was choosing differently THIS time around. And there was a LOT that WAS different, it just wasn't the right choice. I did it AGAIN.........NO GOD......I couldn't have done this AGAiN...........SHAME.
It affected my daughter's so much, and I SO regret that. I'M SO SORRY. I've told them so, and they are so forgiving and SO loving. I'm extremely proud of the women they''ve turned out to be.
We have unconditional love between all of us, and we're very close. My daughter's are each other's best friends, and I couldn't hope for more. They make me so proud to be their mother.
There's a long road ahead for me. I need help, and I just was in contact with our insurance company to get professional help with healing my mind, emotions and heart. Thank you guys for listening to me also.
You go, Dede
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
You go, Dede
You're on the way. OK, I'm going to talk with you in inner religious talk, and if I get called on doing that with you, because you are I have some commonality that we can communicate fast and deep in, I'll be happy to rewrite this post later or replace it with something else. : ) or pop! it will disappear from the site because I went beyond an unexpressed boundary on it. But I figure that you'll see it before I'd have to do that.
First, tears. Dede in our tradition, which is over 2000 years long, there is talk about tears being a good sign. Certain tears, not others They're like the rain that comes when spring is really coming.
Pastors love to preach about wives "submitting", but not on husbands "loving".
Yes, in part of our tradition, not all parts of it world wide, a person certainly hears that teaching.
I've even had it laid on me what our Book does NOT say, which is that because I'm a woman, I am to submit to all men, whether they're my husband, my father, or some pipsqueak with a half grown mustache who has no relation to me. That's ridiculous. The Book, wherever one looks in it does NOT say that, and furthermore doesn't model that, in the stories of women that it tells.
So Dede that all women should kiss the toes of all men is an overshot by people who are either ignorant or shirking their religious responsibility to look it up and be guided by what the Book DOES say.
As for this thing of "wives submitting" but not "men loving" you know exactly where to look in the Book to find out what it says and have looked it up. After it says "wives submit," it says husbands serve, as Christ served.
Now that's a big deal, because the Book says that Christ humbled Himself.....how much more "submit" can there be than Christ humbling Himself?....even unto death, to the will of Someone other than Himself. That's the part, I agree totally, that is in the Book, that gets lopped off and thrown away, with only "wives submit" retained and repeated: that husbands are to ....get this....serve....self sacrificially....up to the standard of Christ's service which was submission to the Father on behalf of others.
THAT's what these convenient evaders leave out....they leave out their job! They leave out their relation to Christ in marriage. And as far as I can see, it's a deliberate act of rejecting the authority of Scripture over themselves, while they seek to lord it over wives, when they throw away "husbands....serve....as Christ loved...."
There's no reason to get in a mano-a-mano with these people who conveniently excuse themselves from the authority of Scripture telling them to submit and serve light years beyond the cultural expectations in Bible times of a wife to her husband, and apply that light years beyond standard to their behavior in serving and self sacrificing for her.
The Apostle Paul did not, definitely did not, have a model of family that he laid out in his letters that had wives groveling and husbands acting like big shots. Instead it's the same healthy paradigm of relationship that modern therapy preaches: that in relationships, it is not a one way street, where only one serves and the other takes, takes takes. It's a model of respecting each other, giving to each other, being available to each other, and serving...there's that Bible word...it's the word for love.
Biblical love, as different from happy Valentine-y, movie fiction love, is NOTHING if it doesn't result in generous actions on behalf of other people, not on a one shot, when it pleases and at the person's whim, but steadily. As a scripture that you'll recognize says, we, not just women, not just wives, are to pour our selves out in service to others. Because the One Who Leads us calls us to do this and models how to do this. Not just women. No, no, not just household servants. Not just children under the age of majority. All of us who dare to claim that we are in this tradition. The Book couldn't be clearer or more insistent on this.
Look, sweetie, Dede...as this is getting written, I think I will have to leave this up for a little while, and then taper it back because this is a general site and there can be too much God talk on these forums for everyone's comfort, and in no way do either you or I want to end up giving the impression to a drive-by person who doesnt read the whole situation that we're preaching something to people about their lives or what to think.
But I do want to talk to you today because heh, I know one when I see one, this tradition and this book are lenses and vocabulary to you... so on I go here, ....and then I'll figure out how to taper this back, to avoid having a passer by not reading your earlier posts or mine think that I'm Bible banging preaching.
So take comfort in what the Book says. Put more stock in what it does say, which you know, you've found, than in what people say that it says, without getting to know what it says, or know how to look up and see for themselves, or say that it says by taking only convenient pieces out for display. That's making the Book into their own private sock-puppet...you know, slip a sock over your hand and then make the sock talk by moving your hand? Now that sock doesn't say those things all on its own. Take comfort.
You wrote:
I did it AGAIN.........NO GOD......I couldn't have done this AGAiN...........SHAME.
It affected my daughter's so much, and I SO regret that. I'M SO SORRY. I've told them so, and they are so forgiving and SO loving. I'm extremely proud of the women they''ve turned out to be.
We have unconditional love between all of us, and we're very close. My daughter's are each other's best friends, and I couldn't hope for more. They make me so proud to be their mother.
Your daughters' love, Dede, and your wonderful relation with them, are a very great sign of what you have done in this life and take heart from it, and hope in yourself.
They wouldn't have turned out that way, otherwise. They are proof of you. Your relation with them is proof of you. Would the real Dede please stand up? Yes, yes, she's here as visible as anything, and her being is spread out including her, her daughters and what they give each other and receive from each other. : ) You don't have to find your face in the mirror, friend. Your daughters are your mirror. That other mirror in the bathroom will come back into use later, some other time.
And here's the whammy that I'll have to dial back, but I'm talking within, with you now:
That you are here. That you are now, in tiny or longer steps, taking steps toward wellbeing, is a sign like a SIGN, that our Author has far from given up on you, but lo! is here for you.
So walk on, girl. Some days you'll need to rest a bit, some days all you'll do is stand, to have a glimpse of things a little farther down the road, or to practice your balance, some days you'll walk. It's all good. Not easy. Walk on. However the thing with your husband works out, walk on.
You've got companions.
Now, very uplifting post
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Thank you very much for the touching and poignant post. Many more tears. I understand all about people maybe reading too much "religiosity" into your writing, but I LOVED it and could TOTALLY relate to, everything you wrote. Thank you.
I cherish my relationship with the Lord. Haven't talked a lot about it here, but I certainly wouldn't have been able to navigate any part of my life, without the mercy, Grace and forgiveness of Jesus Christ. The scriptures are what I depend on daily. I've made many mistakes but God is good and knows me.
Believers in Jesus or (Christians) certainly get a bad rap these days.......(some deserve it) lol,
but there are MANY good, honest and loving believers out there. You are also right about taking life SLOW...........which is very different since I've lived with a tornado in the house for almost 33 years. The hyperactivity DID have a huge impact on me. I could not keep up, but I worked like I had a adhd as well in that area. Lol
I'm SO thankful for this Site to come to, where I can learn, grow, vent AND have friends. Thank you too, J, for your post as well. THANKS SO MUCH FRIENDS.
Dede.....My Advise?
Submitted by kellyj on
Adding to what NowOrNeverSaid and responding back to you.
It will only get better from here (for sure!!)....and don't throw the baby out with the bath water :)
(wow....that was succinct lol )
J
I have found it is all ok - - - - - mostly
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
jennalemone,
My Dad, my Father-in-Law, and my spouse all live/lived by the idea that lights must be turned off when you leave a room.
I usually leave the lights on when I am doing laundry - up and down the steps, change the load from washer to dryer, take it out of the dryer, over and over for 5 loads of laundry.
I live by the idea that it uses more energy to constantly turn a light on and off. And if not, I am valuable enough to be worth the few pennies spent by leaving on the lights.
We live in a rural area, with sometimes only one sheriff on duty at any given time . . . . .for our whole county. For security, I leave the deck lights and the other 2 outdoor light on every night. I turn them off every morning.
This is one of battles I chose to step away from rehashing - - over and over. If I leave the light on, and my spouse wants it off - he turns it off. Does not bother me in the least. A flip of the switch. No big deal. Sometimes my Auto-Plot will turn off the basement lights when I hit the top of the stairs - - - -and I will hear my spouse's voice "Hey, I'm down here."
My Dad still has a canary over lights being left on, so much that one day when he came home, he commented about THE NEIGHBORS house being lit up like a G**D*** Christmas tree. LOL. Oh well.
My spouse does the dishes. Wonderful!!! There is just as much of a chance that the dishwasher will leave something stuck to a dish, as my spouse might miss a spot, as Liz might miss a spot. I choose to simply put the item back in the dishwasher, or pick off the speck, or set the item back in the sink for the next round. He fills the dishwasher. I fill the dishwasher. Sometimes I move stuff so I can squeeze in a few more dishes. Who cares how it is loaded. If something doesn't get clean enough the first time around, it just goes right back in for the next load.
He runs the garbage disposal the way he thinks is best, and I run it the way that works for me. That disposer has been running quite well since it was put in well over 5 years ago.
I set empty plastic coffee cans and their lids on top of the garbage in the bin. If he wants it, he takes it out.
My spouse uses the broiler to melt cheese on tortillas. When I enter the kitchen, and the oven is still on, I ask if he is still cooking. Invariably, he is not. And he is frustrated he left the broiler on, so I just turn it off.
I do not care one whit if the pick-up truck indicator says we are getting 14 miles to the gallon or 12 or 17. I need the truck. It is an automatic. It gets whatever mileage it gets.
My spouse and son can hang a picture on a wall in one try. Look at the wall behind any picture I tried to hang - - -and it will look like it was hit with a blast from a shotgun. I am not proud of this fact. Just happy the pictures are large enough to hide my inability to get a nail in a stud or get the picture at the level I wanted, or hit the nail on the head instead of leaving a divot in the wall.
Some arguments leave an impact. When I look over the Acts of my life, Act 1 is childhood, Act 2 is adulthood/marriage/raising children, and Now Act 3. . . . .each Act has ten defining moments. It is my reality. Some are painful disagreements, that for me, have left ugly scars. Some were lessons well learned. Some are joys. Some are wounds that still require attention. It does not matter if my spouse believes he was 100% correct - they still hurt me, and my soul needs balm for them. I have chosen to forgive - so I can find peace for Liz. Whe it comes to our relationship, that is different. I can do all the work for Liz that is necessary for me to have peace. When it comes to the wounds in our relationship, some of the wounds cannot just be forgotten. Forgiveness is not reconciliation. It is a way that I can find peace for me. Forgiveness is about my attitude. It is not the same as reconciliation.
Very truly,
Liz
Forgiveness Is The Best Cure Of All ...Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
I also agree. Not to belabor the religious thing here. Wasn't that the main ingredient that Jesus taught us? It's work for everyone....that's the point:)
J
That may have come out wrong
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
I have chosen to forgive - so I can find peace for Liz. Whe it comes to our relationship, that is different.
To clarify this statement - I think it may be read as When it comes to our relationship, I do not forgive. That came out all wrong. When it comes to our relationship, I forgive, but to get to the peace, there is the need for reconciliation.
If I hold on to un-forgiveness, it only hurts me. Romans 12:18 says If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
I can insert my own name in there, and read, "If it is possible, as far as it depends on Liz, live at peace with everyone." This does not mean give in, bend,, give up. Nor allow myself to be taken advantage of in any way. I can live at peace with a tiger - - -as long as there is a good sound fence /moat/wall separating us.
Sincerely,
Liz
70 X 7
Submitted by Delphine on
I was always impressed by Jesus' response to the question of how many times we are expected to forgive someone. "Seventy times seven."
Numerologically, the numbers here are significant also. What does 70 symbolize? A few quotes from this page: http://numerology-thenumbersandtheirmeanings.blogspot.com/2011/06/number...
"The 70 vibration represents rest, contemplation, spirituality, sensitivity, sympathy and mastery. 70 / 7 is the sacred spiritual number – 'the energy of the mystics'."
"The 70 / 7 vibration represents a special function of human life as it indicates the amount of learning one must amass in the form of personal experiences known as 'sacrifices'."
The "sacrifice" as it pertains to forgiveness, may be seen as sacrificing (giving up) resentment and judgment.
"When 0 is combined with another number, the potential of that number is magnified and amplified. It magnifies, enhances and increases the potential and dimension of the number, bringing success and perfection to its’ qualities and attributes., ie. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 etc with the protection and Divine Consciousness of the number Zero.
The Number 70 transcends the barriers of time and space and brings you in touch with the world of the mystic and clairvoyant. On a lower plane of manifestation the number 70 gives a confused sense of timing and a dislike of restrictions."
Sounds like you've done your moral homework, Liz
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
So you don't need this book title, but by way of companionability with you about forgivenness, here's a little book on it that helped me at a stage in my life. I still have it in the house, and will reread parts of it when I find I'm stuck in a loop of dwelling on feeling like I have been treated unjustly or unfairly
I hope the link takes you to the table of contents. Reading through his chapter titles tells you what distinctions he discusses. Such as the distinction you made between forgiving, which is one thing, and reconciliation, which is a different matter.
Lewis Smedes, The Art of Forgiving
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Forgiving-Lewis-B-Smedes/dp/034541344X#reader_...
...again, from what you wrote, it sounds like you've meditated on forgiving, learned more about it and have done it.
Best wishes,
Now
The road I have traveled
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
NowOrNever,
I have that book. And love it!
These are my go to books, after The Bible::
I have spent years working my way through all these - and many others, and reaped many many benefits from these book. I have traveled and studied myself, and looked for ways to make myself better.
I am finished with trying to repair myself to please anyone else. it was a lifetime passion of mine. Even when I was giving it my all in all, I really was not able to bring anyone else to a place of joy. I been at it for 32 years, and it hasn't worked yet. I am graduating from it.
I am not striving for perfection. I got a pretty good grasp on what I bring to the party!!! I am unwilling to believe it is 'not good enough or broken or damaged. Not any more. I have been saying, I am uniquely Liz. I have overcome the thought that I need to fix just one more thing, or just look at one more issue, or just admit to one problem I am just not seeing. Or just discover that one counselor/therapist/psychologist/self-help group who will fix me.
I no longer feel as I am broken, or mal-adjusted, or not quite there. I am here. I already just want to live and enjoy life. I am perfectly imperfect. I am really OK with that. I really am unwilling to change for anyone. Really really unwilling. *** If the choice is mine, and I am left with having to STILL get myself fixed/or change/ or adjust, I will choose to be alone and content, than choose to be with someone in disharmony. Enough already I say. If I haven't gotten it fixed to an acceptable place in 32 years, it just won't happen. Enough. If the only way we can go forward is for me to say I need more help, I am unwilling. I am willing to work on relationship skills, I am unwilling to say there is something wrong with me.
With absolute joy in saying so,
Very truly,
Liz
Can any of the Lady's here...
Submitted by ADH9er on
Can any of the lady's on this thread offer me their insights to possible reasons why the forgiveness spoken of here, to my receptors, does not feel like true forgiveness ?
ADH9er
Nothing to forgive
Submitted by Delphine on
Ultimately we must come to the realization that there is nothing to forgive. Why? Because we are creating it all.
http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/true-forgiveness-is-recognizing-there...
Many of you have recognized that your experiences of Life are created by your beliefs and stories.
Sometimes we get so involved in our stories, that we think they are true.
While we are under the power of these stories we become insane; Doing things that no rational person would ever do, unless they were under the influence, under the influence of their beliefs and stories.
While we are under this insanity of our beliefs and stories, we create all of these stories and emotions that we have been injured and slighted by another. While we are under the influence of these beliefs and stories, we know the other party harmed us and definitely did it intentionally.
We may so insanely believe that the story is true, that we believe we must have retribution.
If you have the nerve to see your beliefs and stories for the fairy tales that they are, you might notice some of the most fantastic story tellers around you.
Governments, religions and the media are some of the most wonderful story tellers, capable of hooking into our personal stories of fear, greed, or any other emotion.
Once these great story tellers pull us into their story, they can manipulate us and direct us at will.
Unless we are capable of seeing the illusions for what they really are, we are trapped in the story and our only options are to follow the plot.
We have gone to war over beliefs and stories.
Over the ages, millions upon millions have rallied around a story and led to a slaughter, over nothing more than some beliefs and some interesting stories. What is patriotism, but just some interesting beliefs and stories?
Look at every conflict, from some child upset because their sibling took their toy, to a dictator, so insecure and afraid of losing power, he can create a belief and story in his populace, capable of getting them to die for him.
There is nothing wrong with our beliefs and stories; we need them to create the wonderful experiences of life. We can't experience any emotion without a belief and story behind it.
I find this wonderful game of life is a lot more fun, when I consciously choose what I want to experience in life, and then consciously choose the belief that creates that experience.
You might say "you're just fooling yourself, you're just pretending". My response is, "you're absolutely right, we are all pretending. Some of us know we are just pretending".
Wouldn't it be interesting, if we remembered that the other person in our story is under the influence of their own beliefs and stories, struggling through their own delusions; Delusions that have absolutely nothing to do with us or any basis in reality?
What if we remembered that the other person is stuck in their own personal story, following their own personal script?
What they are thinking and doing has absolutely nothing to do with you.
The person is just responding to their own personal beliefs and stories.
No matter what is going on, no matter how personal it feels, we are creating what we are feeling.
We are in control of our experiences through our personal beliefs and stories.
Is it possible, is it really possible that you have never been harmed or slighted except in your delusional story?
Could you recognize, everything you have ever felt, is based upon your personal story and not what another has said or done?
Could you imagine how empowering this realization is?
You're in control of your life, not another.
Could you imagine the implications around the concept of forgiveness?
If you saw the illusions for what they really are, you'd recognized you have never been slighted or harmed.
You'd recognize there was never anything to forgive.
True forgiveness is recognizing there is nothing to forgive.
...And in the meantime...
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Doble post, well triple
...And in the meantime...
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Double post, well triple
...And in the meantime...
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
...the multiple posts came from me + Ipad typing with two fingers hunt and peck. Apoiogies for the clutter.
Delphine, thanks for this essay which tackles the core gesture of forgiveness in it's own effective way. I walked it back to get the name and story of the person who wrote it.
if as he writes in the essay, stories are understood to be propaganda, yes, of course, to all he says about story. Yes.But I dont think his story of himself posted on that site is the kind of story he is saying produces judgement/forgivenness hangups
Mulling it, I can thnk of only two ways that people can live entirely without stories, taken to be something more embedded in us than judgemental discourse is, while living on this earth. Maybe there are more...
A person can reach sainthood, well beyond where I and others pursue healing, have our tragedies and growth, and try and fail and try. A saint is miles and miles beyond being a decent person, say a particularly patient and generous parent. Living or not within a particular religious matrix, that person is beyond and elsewhere than good person, or someone who has accumulated a resume of special experiences, and is something beyond and other than being a self creating individual. Although a case can be made that true saints, not the rest of us and not the self deluded about it, cant skunk along treating other people like crap and be saints.That kind of person has gotten to a point that he or she lives without past, lives without future, and perceptually lives without time-space distinctions. That kind of person has grown, usually after decades of guidance, moral ups and downs, friendships and assistance, into, as one tradition designates it, becoming all eye. Not all self creating, which is a local focus of energy, all eye, all seeing, no past, no future, no here, no there.
That's a person without a story. They dont talk about themselves, so they're hard to find. I'm not sure whether or not I've met one. They're not living from their past, not living in the future, not dealing with propaganda, are beyond being tethered in time and space. They engage,with people, but not the way that you and I do. They would howl with laughter at the idea that life is all about them. That's why they are not living in any of their stories anymore.
The other kind of person still eating and breathing on this planet who I can imagine living in something other than a story has escaped your writer's judgmental propaganda story a different way, by physically going out in the wilderness, and living completely alone, permanently, until his or her relationships with other people are totally defunct. That's another way to exit stories, which always have scene, action, relationships, actions, and before and after. There are what if pieces of imaginative literature that explore what the author thinks would happen if miraculously there were a total hermit, born as a baby in the wilds,with absolutely no other human being around with whom to talk, from whom to learn anything, and so be placed at risk of those judgmental propaganda stories your writer talks about. The perfect noble savage. Europeans, especially some French thinkers, were fascinated by this idea of the perfectly insular human being who had no relationships with other people, and so was storyless. You have to live totally alone, totally, while alive, to pull ths one off. The traditions are loaded with cautions that the isolation itself doesnt make you grow, and can make you crazy as a tick. They usually dont recommend long spells of,disconnection lack,of cooperation with, or responsibility to other people
the rest us, because we have bodies existing in space, time and relationships with other people, have, I think, to live in our present best knowledge of our beginning, relationships, in cluding relation with our past, needs, wants, hopes, and current grasp of where we are going in physical time, physical space, mental journey, and relationship dynamic.
It personally horrifies me to think at this point in my life, of living without hope, which is a story with all that makes stories stories, beginning, past, journey, before and after, relationships, living change, orientation to something beyond my little Me,faith, which is a story and most especially love, which is a story. I think living in space time with other people, not as if other people didnt exist in themselves as themselves,, but were mere figments or faint shadows in my life,and only I truly exist, they dont is not where I'm at right now. I also am embodied, and so understand that I am, by that, immersed in story. I will need to forgive and hope to be forgiven. I'm nowhere near being able to live as if only I exist. So releasing attachment, including the release of forgiving, is going to be there, for the forseeable future
Sometimes things are not OK and a story does not make it OK
Submitted by jennalemone on
If it feels bad, sometimes there is something that needs to be fixed other than just the story you tell yourself. No story will make this FEEL any better in the long term. Yes, you can "get through" the moment or the day or week telling yourself you are "above" the pety annoyances but over the long term you BECOME the actions and reality of the situation you choose to be a part of.
I tried to post an image I found to illustrate this better than I can say it. But it doesn't show up. It is a photo of one guy trying to hold four big heavy boxes marked T E A M. and another guy happily piling up more boxes on to the already heavy load. Unless the guy trying to carry the heavy burden STOPS he will continue to carry it all. He can tell himself that he is OK with that or that it really isn't that heave of a load or that the other guy is doing the best he can by piling more burden on to the other guy's back. But in the long term, the guy who is carrying the heavy load will have a back ache and will feel like a fool.
The guy carrying the heavy load will certainly not FEEL love and pleasure for the person who has been piling on the burdens. A story cannot change reality of the heart.
Nothing wrong with our stories
Submitted by Delphine on
NowOrNever, the author of that piece doesn't advise living without our stories. He says:
There is nothing wrong with our beliefs and stories; we need them to create the wonderful experiences of life. We can't experience any emotion without a belief and story behind it.
I find this wonderful game of life is a lot more fun, when I consciously choose what I want to experience in life, and then consciously choose the belief that creates that experience.
You might say "you're just fooling yourself, you're just pretending". My response is, "you're absolutely right, we are all pretending. Some of us know we are just pretending".
Another source, Abraham-Hicks, which I've mentioned several times on this board, advises us to "tell a different story" if we are dissatisfied with the one we are living. Dream it up, speak it, write it, whatever.
Then there's the book, End Your Story, Begin Your Life, by Jim Dreaver.
http://www.amazon.com/End-Your-Story-Begin-Life/dp/1571746595
The bottom line is that our experience (including our experience of the people in our lives) is created on a consciousness level. We can choose to remain in our current story/consciousness, or we can choose one that we prefer. We don't have to stay stuck, unless it serves us in some way.
I understand that the idea that there is nothing to forgive, is probably asking too much of one who is feeling ill-used in a relationship. I know for myself that it is often easier said than done. The choice to forgive can only help us. A Course In Miracles is much about forgiveness. OK, one more link and I promise that's it :)
http://www.a-spiritual-journey-of-healing.com/definition-of-forgiveness....
I hope you find your way to your own happy ending, NowOrNever.
With love to you and all here,
Delphine
Thank you, Delphine.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Thank you, Delphine.
Amen, Nothing to forgive
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Amen ...again and again and.....
The Power of Positive Thinking. The Necessity for Reality Checks
Submitted by jennalemone on
Add Norman Vincent Peale to Marriane Williamson and selflgrowth.com and we get a wise old mothery-type feeding us good thoughts and happy hearts. Yes, there is definately a value to having these things in our conscious and unconscious minds. Words and sentiments DO become where our minds go. Stories that are told to us and that we manufacture in our minds DO help us to navigate through our daily lives. Seeing things as beautiful and adventurous is a much better ocean of experience than seeing the same journey with fear and annoyance. Church has it's story of comforting grace and forgiveness. Us humans do need to have our stories to hang on to when the world gets overwhelming. Beautiful people seem to ride with beautiful stories in their minds. Ugly people seem to be stuck with their own stories of encroachment and humiliation and pain. How you think is how you act and look. Very true and good thoughts to be reminded of. A good mindset is essential to a good outcome. Believing you CAN is the only way for things going in a good direction. Thanks for the pep talk. This is all good reading and good for our hearts to hear. We need to hear the words over and over again.
I was the Polyanna who grew up with positive thinking and prayer. On my particular journey, I must STOP being naive and hopeful and must be mature and strong in reality..... I must stop my good thought denial because the pain has caught up with me and good thoughts alone are not going to change my life until after I find my integrity and voice back again. I must apply faith and good thoughts ALONG WITH facing reality and strength and voice and daring to fight for my own integrity back. That is why I write because I am trying to see if my reality is really real or am I just imagining things by trying to just see the bright side - like I did for most of my life - "going with the flow" has not served me well in my particular situation with H. Sometimes I write to "see if it sticks" in my own judgement on a different day than when I was inspired to spew out my venomous but true FEELINGS. I find that the feelings DO resonate with some people having the same difficulties. For now, I am still in a place of building my voice and fortitude by my writings here. It is so refreshing to have people respond with support rather than to get the feedback that my thinking is WRONG or that my feelings are WRONG. The reality is that these ARE my thoughts and feelings. Many of us are hurting and a little confused from years of hurt and pretense. It is where we are right now.... trying to deal with our realities that are affecting our thoughts and feelings. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Pretense does not change things.
I do not see it this way
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Delphine,
"Love means never having to say you're sorry." Um, I don't agree..
"True forgiveness is recognizing there is nothing to forgive." Um, I don't agree..
I like this "By forgiving yourself – instead of resenting yourself for something you did a week or 10 years ago – you make this habit more and more of a natural part of you. And so forgiving others becomes easier too."
If you can name it, you can change it.
My personal story is very valuable to me. I can forgive myself for not knowing how to handle things. And then those parts of the story become "a lesson learned" rather than 'a pain I continue to feel.'
Sincerely,
Liz
Letting Go
Submitted by Delphine on
Liz,
As I said to NowOrNever, I can grok that the concept of there being nothing to forgive is a lot to ask of someone who is feeling ill-used in a relationship. Nevertheless, that is complete forgiveness.
It is enough to start with forgiveness of self and others. Forgiveness of self is primary. If we are not at peace with ourselves, we can't be at peace with anyone else. So start with loving and forgiving yourself. Then you will find it much easier to let go of resentment, judgment, and attachment to the old stories. It will be easier to begin a new chapter, a new and joy-full story.
Delphine
Empathy......Many Ways to Get "There".... Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
If you saw the illusions for what they really are, you'd recognized you have never been slighted or harmed.
You'd recognize there was never anything to forgive.
True forgiveness is recognizing there is nothing to forgive.
I can see this too Delphine. I had a long over due visit to see my T just a few days ago. (I don't see him alone very often any more except on occasion for a "check up" lol )
We had a discussion on empathy and he gave me some new insight that I thought would be good to share here.
As he put it (paraphrasing)
Absolute pure "empathy" is not even possible. To do that...you'd actually have to be sharing the same mind with another person and that is not even possible. If you start with that...and work forward from that one "fact" it will give you an idea why it's so difficult to do sometimes.
Me (the Geek): "Except if you were Mr Spock and could mind- meld with another person." lol
My T: "Even then it's not possible.......even Mr Spock will have his own perception while experiencing the total perception of another person he's mind-melding with and have a reaction to it based on two different perceptions and making comparisons and associations with that reaction to form and opinion. Even then he can't truly empathize with them." (I'm, a Geek...what can I say ...but so is my T...we both like Star Trek)
So basically...as we discussed this.....everyone has a perception of their own...and if you can completely let go of all your own perceptions of another person and what they are doing as you observe them....what you got left is nothing. No perception, no expectation, no judgement, no nothing....and you are not reacting to them at all.
As he put it....when I rub my fingers on this chair...and my finger tips touch the leather....it sends a message to my brain that associates that feeling to something....and my brain searches for something that will tell me what I'm feeling. In this case....I can tell the feeling of leather without having to look down and see that it is. My perception from the sensation on my finger tips...tells me that.
Okay....that's great when you are talking about a leather chair (an object) and as he said that......he doesn't react to an inanimate stationary object that he knows what it is and understands it's function.
But now apply that to a person. A person is not an object and they have their own perception of you at the same time as you have one of them.....unlike the chair. It has no perception and that's a different "thing". But a person is not....a "thing". Yet we treat other people as if they are and we don't even realize it. We need to treat things as things in order to live, work, make money, eat and stay alive and we do it exactly the same way. We sense...feel...and react....and use our brain associations from those inputs to tell us what to do. It's all sensory reactions and associations we form in our brains from our own personal experiences and we do this automatically like he did with the leather chair.
Again...as he put it. I sit here day in and day out and tell people exactly the same thing every time they walk in here because we're all doing exactly the same things. My ability to percieve others by observing them in the same way...is maybe one 1/10th or 1% better than you only because I have learned to do this over time from over 30 years and sitting here doing the same thing every day.
But...."that 1/10th of 1% better than people who walk in here...is like saying I know that much more of only 1% of what anyone else knows of anyone one else and what they are thinking and feeling about anything. And even that 1% that we might have learned from a lifetime of experiences and associating what we see and making the assumptions, speculations, assessments, opinions and judgments in order to even figure that part out....started out with knowing nothing....0 because all I have to work from is my perception and that's all I know."
In other words.....even Mr Spock can't mind meld with another person...and perfectly empathize with them even if that were possible. His own perceptions are getting in the way.
So he you look at it from that perspective.......the best we can hope for is possibly actually knowing or empathizing with about 1.10% accuracy (or less) to really know how anyone else is actually feeling or how they see things from there own personal perspective of you...... while you're doing that at the same time with them. Which means no mater what you see...and try to place some meaning to them like a leather chair and go....."ah.....leather chair.".....the likely hood of you being wrong is about 99%.....give or take a 1/10th of 1% or so.
I'm willing to call it nothing and call that even. So looking at it that way.....there really is nothing to forgive because no one knows anything of how another person see's things from their own personal perceptions. Pretty much nothing. And once you start heading down that road (like we all do).....we're treating people as if they are made of leather if we think we can do that in the same way.
J
You Got It, J
Submitted by Delphine on
there really is nothing to forgive because no one knows anything of how another person see's things from their own personal perceptions. Pretty much nothing. And once you start heading down that road (like we all do).....we're treating people as if they are made of leather if we think we can do that in the same way.
J...in a response to IslandGirl23 in the Progress section, thread titled My Major Breakthrough as the NON-ADHD Partner (PART THREE)...I quoted this which I think I quoted to you also previously. Note the second sentence in particular (which I've bolded):
Your joy factor will remain constant as you are continually refining your ideas of what you want, and that's why it is so important for you to get everybody else out of the equation. They've got their own game going on; they don't understand your game. Give them a break; stop asking them what they think. Start paying attention to how you feel. Joy will be yours immediately, and everything else that you have ever thought would make you happy, will start flowing, seemingly effortlessly, into your experience. - Abraham-Hicks
Just as you said. We really don't know where the other person is coming from. They've got their own game, their own "story" going on, and we've got ours. We can only take responsibility for our story!
So if there is anyone to forgive--it is ourselves!
Hope you check out IslandGirl's thread. Good one.
Delphine
Yep.....Pretty Much Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
If you were at all wondering....I brought up that thing about the magic line with my T. You know...the expectation of "mind reading" on the part of my wife? I've pretty much done everything that I just said anyway...and yes, the problems just seem to disappear when you can see it from that point of view. But that still doesn't answer what to do about when you can't mind read and the person still get angry or is upset with you for not being able to figure out where "their" magic line is?
If you step back from that for just a second.....that "magic line" doesn't exist. It's just one in their story but not yours or mine. Like I said to Jenna.....I don't even have a magic line (per se)....I have times when I need someone to respect a real "need" of mine if it's different than theirs....but those are pretty few in comparison to my wife. She has lot's of magic lines, trip wires and booby traps laid out all over the place and I never know when I will trip one and set her off.
One time a while back when I was really getting tired of this....I wrote here somewhere that my wife was a "territorial predator" and this is what I was talking about. Staking claim....pissing on all the tree's and fire hydrants all over the house and getting mad when I "disrespected her area." Like those Sea Gulls in the movie "Finding Nemo"....."mine..mine...mine...mine....mine...mine...mine"
As we have now come to understand this together.....she experiences claustrophobia and is really touchy about her space because it. Could she say this before? No. In her story....I was a hostile interloper and she grabbing land as fast as she could to before I could get near it!
So in our stories.....she was a "territorial predator" and I was a "hostile interloper"....all because she has claustrophobia and was not aware of it or of what she was doing. Once we began to talk about it....was when it finally started to come to light.
So just the other night.....she started to get ansi when the dogs were jumping up to greet us sitting together on the couch and was going off on them a little...and she bumped me with her elbow and said immediately "oh...I'm so sorry"...like that was some big deal. I told her that these things don't bug me at all and I barely noticed it. In fact....if she hadn't said anything or apologized....I wouldn't have noticed it at all???
But then I said..."you know...it must really be upsetting when the dogs and I are both crowding you on the couch like we do sometimes knowing what it feels like to be claustrophobic. I have my own claustrophobic moments but it has nothing to do with people bumping into me or being in crowded confined spaces. Mine is different....but I know what that feels like so I appreciate the fact that you were considerate enough to see that you bumped me even though it's fine if you do. Bump away!"
Then I said...."did you know that claustrophobia like this can be symptom of PTSD?" (which she has from her childhood for sure)
She said "No? I didn't know that?"
There's lot of things she doesn't know that I may possibly know only from my own experience with these things. When she says the dogs are "ill mannered"....of course they're not. Dogs don't have manners and have no idea of that concept? They obey..or not....but it's not from manners! lol
In her story....dogs have manners (and play cards and smoke cigars possibly?).....people are rude....I'm a hostile interloper with a camo- jacket and a sniper rifle.....and who am I to tell her differently? It isn't real. That's all an illusion.
And yet....what I see in that scenario....is my wife in her jammies...dogs who only want affection....and me sitting next to her with the dogs in my lap and she bumped me with her elblow. So what? I didn't even notice it because I don't care?
But my wife cares a lot when that happens to her and I know this already.
So when my wife turned to me and said....."that was a really kind thing you said to me."
I said "what thing?"
"About saying that claustrophobia was connected to having PTSD"
I said "hey...no problem. I just want you to be comfortable and I know these things bother you."
It's all an illusion and there's nothing to apologize for or get upset about really. None of it.
So when I asked my T about the magic line thing and what to do about my inability to mind read he said (honest answer here ladies ) "I'm living with a woman too you know...it's not like I don't have to deal with this myself...you, I and most every man who walks into my office or I have ever met....but, as far as the magic line things goes.....just let her have what she wants....and don't fight over it. Remember...she's a Porcupine and you know what you do with a Porcupine don't you? The last thing you do is yell at them when their quills are up is get upset with them. Their protecting themselves and all of it all a defensive measure of some kind."
I said " well....this Porcupine has wheels and a homing devise and comes after you and you can't just stand their and stay still and silent to avoid getting "Stuck" I was joking with him at that point.
And to the point......" just let her have what she wants and don't get upset when she pokes you occasionally and don't react yourself"
This was after the other night with the elbow incident and that only proved to me exactly what he was saying. Be nice to each other and quit applying your story to everyone when something happens that you don't like. That's the answer right there. It's all meaningless anyway and there is really nothing to apologize for.
J
Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing
Submitted by Delphine on
Subject line refers to last line of your post: "It's all meaningless anyway and there is really nothing to apologize for."
Yes...acceptance, nonresistance is the ticket.
Had to giggle at your wife's view of the "ill mannered dogs" :D
hey, tell your T that we women have to deal with some male Porcupines ourselves!
Again...check out IslandGirl's latest. Think she has a good approach. Helpful to me.
https://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/my-major-breakthrough-non-adhd-part...
Delphine
Sadness and Success....Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
When I read through island girls part 3 addition....I felt a great kinship to her in one respect and what she has done for herself from all the successes she has had in finding the balance that I have longed to recover in my life. I see this....it sounds like she has found balance instead of trade off or compromise and that is the thing that I desire most of all. Balance is what I have lost and it saddened me for a moment as I reflected on her story. What she impressed upon me was being able to give to herself while giving to others at the same time in the way that satisfied everyone in what sounded very much as harmony for everyone not some "Leave It To Beaver" ideal that never really existed in the first place.
Actually....I take that back...."Leave It To Beaver" DID exist at one time in History and I think trying to maintain/reclaim/perpetuate that ideal is part of the problem.......
Beaver: "Gee Wally....what's wrong with Mom?....I went downstairs for a Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwich and we were out of Peanut Butter?"
Wally: "Don't you know anything you little Knuckle Head.....Dad said Mom's having a personality crisis and no one knows what's wrong with her?"
Beaver: "Personality crisis? What's that?"
Eddie Hascal: "Listen you little creep....it's a condition only Women get and I hear and it's contagious to men if you get too close to them.....you need to stay as far away from your Mom as possible or it can spread like wildfire. In fact... I feel it coming on right now ever since you opened your mouth and if you start an epidemic in the neighborhood....I'm gonna come back here and pound you!!"...knock, knock...."Why.....Hello Mrs Cleaver....what a lovely dress you have on today....it goes so well with the color of your eyes. We were just educating the little fella here on the topic of manners with women.....love your nails by the way....."
June Cleaver: (smirk): "Why Thank you Eddie....but I'm sure the Beaver will do fine without your help. C'mon boys...breakfast is ready." (door close)
Beaver (agitated):" Holy cow...did you hear that Wally?..ah, ah...if Eddie's right....what am I going to do now???.. ah,ah....I'm starting feel all funny inside!!!!! It must be catching like Eddie said!!!!" lol
Wally: "Way to go you little Creep....you stay away from Mom you hear me...let Dad take care of it....he's immune. You never see him acting all funny and weird like Mom do you? Don't you know anything!!!"
Growing up with two older sisters in that "hand me down" system of learning about the difference in the sexes was exactly the same kind of method that I learned myself. That little dramatization was not that far from what I remember and further....that hand me down world in which ( at least I ) grew up in...did not work at all for me. If you pair that with my story of an absentee father with no older brothers to fill in for me...I had to go find it somewhere else or get infected myself. (facetiously said here.... Still looking through the eyes of the Beaver as I was back then. (and what was up with that name? "THE" Beaver???
That sparked something in my thinking that went right along with my T's metaphor of a "Porcupine" and applying it to my wife) I'm sure he has one for me and if I had to guess....it would be a "Mule". lol The "Mule" and the "Porcupine" would make a very good children's book all things considered. Those archetypes again....not so far from seeing things in terms of the different personalities and behaviors that animals seem to naturally take on I think.
The most compelling thing for me that island girl said in her amazing story of finding her balance was this......
In the morning, for example, I make it a point to wake up a couple of hours before everyone else. This gives me time to be alone (which is very important for my mental stability), it gives me time to workout (which helps me feel like I’m taking care of my health), it gives me time to take a long hot shower (which helps me to feel super relaxed and puts me in a good mood), and last I have time to take care of my appearance, I get dressed and ready for the day in a way that makes me feel pretty, feminine, and confident (which helps me feel like I’m taking care of my needs as a woman.) After giving all of this to myself first thing in the morning, I am MORE than happy to prepare breakfast for my family.
"Taking care of my needs as a woman." That was the most important statement in her entire essay for me. In order to explain why...I need to give you some back ground here. This goes right along with my T's comment about "you, me, and every man I know..have to deal with this."
And what I have come to find myself.....this is where woman in my experience...usually begin to get a little defensive (in general but certainly not always and to a lesser degree I think now than in the past) ....I'm still trying to understand why? Said in reverse...the same comment from a woman would not bother me a bit?
But I now believe a huge component of that comes from how shame manifests itself differently for a man and a woman and with no intention or fault on either side I think....the "female pain body" which is discussed by Eckhart Tolle plays a major role as the culprit I believe in that men just cannot see it or have a difficultly understanding. But yet....I can see it and further...it has had it's effect on me in ways that has caused me to suffer a great deal myself because of it....yet....it is not invisible to me like it may be for many other men. It's the thing that saddens me greatly and my wish here is to try and find a way to explain this to you so you can see that I know it is there.
In a previous session a long time ago with my T (the part of his comment that we both had discussed years ago)..he referred to it as 'playing both sides of the fence." In referencing this....it's a phenomenon (or ghost or spector)...not a mind set that comes from any singular way of seeing things. It's a collective mind rather than a personal issue or problem that extends way beyond the scope of any one person, race, creed or culture I think...and there are parts of it that are so obvious...that the subtleties or nuances get over looked. Within those nuances are where so many problems exist I think.
And in that way I can see it....I see myself as somewhat of an oddity or more isolated case study. Not unique by any means but possibly not the norm either. Marching to my own drummer and the reasons behind it were not by choice...in fact...it was a means of survival and I've never felt proud or uniquely special because of it.
On the contrary...it has cause me to suffer a great deal and I only wished it weren't that way. In the past..... this "Thing" as I call it....is divisive and polarizing and that's the very thing that has caused me to suffer throughout my life and has driven me to separate myself from it at a very early age.....in fact....as long as I can remember my entire life.
I'm going to stop here for a moment...since I need some time to think about what I'm going to say next. I also think I'm going to move this topic to my own post because of the relevance and weight this carry's for me and do it as a possible compliment to what Island Girl did in her well thought through 3 part essay. I'll just make this the part one to my story and end it right here....I have much more to say in a complete thought process I have already but need time to think about how to present it as transparently as I can for everyone else.
Yes, she'll be living in her story and you in yours
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
J, you know, as I read through your very humane, humorous and gentle story of you, your wife and the dogs on the couch, in light of
1) what you learned from your wife about her early in life PTSD (which you remarked on in another post elsewhere, over the last day or so)
2) it's connection for her with her present claustrophobia that you observed and she acknowledged,
3) and your remark now that her present avoidance of claustrophobia fed in to what you here termed her being a "territorial predator" and you (presumably you were guessing her interior attitude, not describing your own behind your actions) a "hostile interloper" on space..... holding all that in mind...
...my first read of your anecdote when your wife said sorry (which I presume was a functional, in the moment, little transaction "sorry," not a full blown clearer self view-recognition of relationship-contrition-compunction-apology)
...was that it was humanly possible that your wife was remaining in her story, and treating you with the courtesy of observing your wellbeing and boundaries that she herself felt she needed when she had a claustrophobic moment herself.
Perhaps she wasn't making you an actor in her story, she was in her story treating you well. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
...you know, people who live with each other daily, live with two live stories going on at the same time, and unless they've split off from each other, leading parallel lives with little contact with each other during the day, probably are living in a third story, the relationship story, at the same time.
I don't think there's a way to avoid those three stories running, if people live day after day with each other under one roof. This means, in the flesh and in time and space, we living our personal stories do bump up against another person with his story.
So: since you were both sitting on the sofa together, not in separate rooms, how is your wife, going to do right to you, in her own story?
She can't act like you're not there. I think one at least adequate attempt at sticking to one's own story while living under one roof with an another-storied person, is to seek to fulfill the higher standards and values of one's own story with the person. Oneself doing what one defines to oneself is a courteous thing to do. Not making you do anything. Recognizing, her way, not your way, and with her valuing, not your valuing, of free and unencumbered space, that you were there as a living human being, as deserving of space as she was. So she said a transactional "sorry" Like the "sorries" people say when they discover that they are interrupting or talking over someone, that "sorry" signal that you saw what you were doing, and value the person despite exuberance about the topic that drove interrupting. A transactional signal of good will self discipline during a transaction, that's all. Not an apology. Nor asking for forgivenness, two other things...
I think it's always worth either asking the person "why did you say sorry?" and hearing what s/he says back (regardless of whether or not you suspect that she will give a straight answer, which is her business), or presuming that she might be trying for good, from her own side of the couch, and giving you what she values for herself.
I'm just thinking through dynamics, lol, not interpreting you or your wife. You were there, we were not. You know her; she is even more familiar with herself.
I think our model and teacher Melissa talks about presumption of good will. It's not wasted effort to leave it at that a wife with her quick "sorry" might have been trying for the good with husband, not to make him do anything.
....to return to your bottom line at the end of your post, you said a big one when you said "quit applying YOUR story to everyone when something happens that you don't like." You betcha, even if your wife weren't surreptitiously with her "sorry" trying to affect your actions or thoughts. You betcha on the unilateral that you laid down about using your own story as a lens to see the world.
....and pursuing that topic, about one person imposing his/her story on someone else, thinking about other situations in relationships that have been described in people's lives on the site, not on your relationship with your wife....or with yourself...
...I think where this business of two people with two histories, two trajectories of maturation, two heads thinking, etc, can get really damaging is not when there are two stories running...as I've said, it's nearly impossible to live without a story at all, though there is occasionally an indication that a few people have pulled it off.
...I think where it gets damaging is not at the level that one person thinks one way and the other another. I, in fact, want to live with someone who has his own mind and past. Two of me would be more than I could take and not very interesting. It's such a gift that I have the opportunity to live with my partner.
It's the issue of imposition that you pointed out. It's when one of the two takes (or howdy howdy codependence! both take) steps to force each other ('way past a sorry, whatever someone like your wife was doing with that "sorry" uttered for something that she did), force the other one to give up his/her own story, or do overt or covert things to destroy the other person's story. I am not talking about one person changing his/her story & actions, and that having an effect on the third story. At the moment I'm not talking about the shared third story, which the two adults cocreate.
I'm talking about one of the pair imposing a story, unable to tolerate that the other of the pair has his/her own story/actions, that are not the first one's story/actions. Using the stories told on this site, this imposition or through force or campaign attempting to change another family member's story is where the reported pain seems to come from, a lot.
That imposition, force or more quiet coercion or gaslighting gets into totalitarianism. It's a far, far cry from what you and your wife live with each other daily... regardless, let's see you said, of two of you having very strong, but different opinions regarding how to do dishes. That to me is two stories bumping up against each other. As I remember you two, regardless of what each of you think about the domestic task, have worked something out about it. That's not totalitarian. Totalitarian is when someone (to pick an example that I can't remember describes anyone's life here, at least in recent forum history) takes the car keys so the spouse can't get out of the house or to work and so loses his/her job. Gaslighting, over time, is deliberately corrosive of the gaslighted person's story. So is hiding an affair. Talk about deliberately killing a truth-based narrative of relationship that the other spouse had, which guided his/her own choice of actions!
I do indeed think that I-cant-stand-that-he-does-that or worse that-he-thinks that, I have to make-him-think-other thoughts" goes on among some people at times.
Assault on or attempt to kill another person's story (whatever the motive for doing that: need for control, fear, narcissism, lack of self confidence oneself, whatever) can be through belligerance and hitting; it can be through gaslighting; it can be through playing with keeping a surface of being a "nice" or "educated" person but the pattern of action and speech is a long campaign war to cut the other person down, essentially break the other person until the other person gives up having a story.
It made my blood chill but it had some truth to it once decades ago, in a book written by a marriage counselor, I ran across the professional's remark that one thing that makes cohabitation, marriage or parenting different from other kinds of relationships, is that you show the other person (your child, your gf, your spouse) your buttons, the old flashpoints that still fire off, from wounds and lacks in your past....which means that your child, or spouse, or cohabitation partner knows EXACTLY where to stick a knife and set you off. Or even more cleverly, the parent or partner knows exactly where to stick a knife NEAR an old trigger and set it off but claim innocence
Human beans are a piece of work all right.
To me, it's not THAT there are different stories running, and everyone in the flesh in that household is in his/her story plus bumping up against the partner's story.
It's when someone....say, to get away from the spouses or bf/gf situation....a parent takes steps, knowing the child's buttons, to hammer hard, right there, in the soft spot in the child, to kill or crush the story of a child.
What horrifies me is to see offline, or read online, that one of the two is 'way past tending the challenges of living in his/her own story, but is way over in an attempt to make the other story collapse, or to kill it, through sticking either belligerently and overtly, or more covertly and quietly, knives into the partner or child's triggers..... that is what seems to me to be so terrible.
If a child's (in this example) story is smashed to smithereens, the child's hope, which is a connection between self and an open future, is destroyed. Etc. etc.
Some of the stories on this site that are hardest for me to read, are ones in which there's an account of one partner, over a long period, not in a particular disagreement or mood for the day, over 6 months, decades, taking steps to stick those knives into old buttons, to dismantle, shut up, abort, etc. the other person's story (whatever story he/she had at the time).
That's story-invasion, story-destruction. An assault campaign on a child's or partner's story is a far cry from two people living together having different stories that are important to them at that time, learning or not how to live in their own stories while acknowledging the other one has a story.
...as you do with us very often, I'm just talking with you about an issue, not making cryptic or overt comments on you or your marriage. Your anecdote was the occasion of thought. I thoroughly appreciate it that you can go from incident up to issue and talk issue.
Here's what Ill say directly about you and your wife (not the issue of the variety of ways that human beings fulfill their own story and treat other people's stories). I want to tell you that I am blown away by the loving attention and care you are putting into your relationship with your wife, recognizing that she is who she is, even though as you say, often the inside of her mind is a mystery and that her own issues can have a wearing on you. All of that is truth telling and love, as I read you.
So one more cheer for you. I read your debriefing after your sessions with Melissa. Wonderful news, J.
Denail of The Different Stories...NON
Submitted by kellyj on
As I read this through....it's clear to me you see all these components separately. And as I have done (without really knowing what I was doing?? lol)...have tried to separate these individual "points or reference" in my posts as means to do this here. What have I learned from this?
In therapy....it helped me complete the parts of my story and make one complete cohesive narrative that I now am completely comfortable with. In essence.....I know who I am and an not confused by any means. I've forgiven myself in the past for simply not knowing. More than anything....you can't fault someone for that even if it causes you or someone else harm or hurt in any way. A difference I see in some more than others....was burning desire to know what was missing and "wanting to see it" no matter how difficult that was to do.
So to say I was in complete denial ever is not true. I lived with those differences and felt the pain on a daily basis. In some ways...that makes you stronger and more resilient than going the other direction in order to avoid the pain of seeing it. The only thing missing...was simply what I didn't know? But I can say honestly....when the pieces that were missing were brought to my attention....I was pretty quick to pick up on them even if I couldn't explain them. That's what looking or searching for them does for you....you always have a sharp eye pealed in that direction....instead of going the opposite direction. I grant myself that much from a very early age.
So in essence....I had a story and knew about it....all that was missing were the king pins or key stones that were making it impossible to complete it.
And going into my relationship with my wife now looking back in context.....she has huge blank spots in her memory of the past and that was the first red flag for me. As I see it now more clearly....her story is missing some gigantic holes (not just bits and pieces) so no wonder she's not able to see her story or even understand that there is one specific to her. This is the biggest problem that I have run into with her.
And yes....that "Im sorry" was not only transactional as you say....but there is a definite attachment to something within it for her that is not the same for me. It's why that moment was so poignant (to her)....and why by connecting something I knew to what she couldn't suddenly made her feel cared for and feel valued. My response to her about wanting her to feel comfortable was by design with intention on my part and not some off hand exchange that had not been well thought through.
The parts that are missing in her story...are the parts that I have tried to discover for her even though she has long since avoided and refused to look at and blocked that from her conscious awareness. (or denial....any way you want to slice it).
My clues in discovering this and searching for these answers... or big red flags either way:
Taking immediate offense at comparisons of any kind. Finding a way to speak about things without offering differences as a means to highlight them only....but doing that without making comparisons is extremely difficult for me. I use that at a means to problem solve and without it....it leaves with nothing at times?
Getting confrontational and extremely argumentative over non-personal topics: Hearing judgment in opinion where there is no judgment at all? Confusing opinions with facts of evidence and completely not being to see the difference? In her mind at times....everything is an opinion?
And further...."anything is possible"....yet...there's no such things as a definite "fact"??? Try and apply those two things with explaining something like ADHD. That kind of ambivalence makes it impossible to have a conversation with sometimes.
This was the kind of argument with my mother that drove me crazy. I hated that phrase "anything's possible" as you might understand why? In order to argue this with my mother....I needed to adopt a different way of thinking about these things. By the way....I never won an argument with my mother since she was as stubborn as I was in remaining absolutely unbending and rigid in her own view of seeing things. I should have remembered that sooner before I finally caught on with my wife as well.
Those comebacks to my mother I learned in order to at least....baffle her or confound her with so much logic there was no way she could get around what I would say and had to defer me to my father who was generally indifferent as long as it didn't affect him. That was my work around in order to do anything since my mothers first response to anything was always "NO....you can't do that." Which was actually "NO....I can't do that" which means "you can't do that either." I figured that one out by the time I was about 10 years old by simply proving her wrong so many times that it seemed clear to me that she had no idea what she was talking about? Which she didn't.
My standard come back line for "anything is possible" was....."go run a 4 minute mile around the neighborhood right NOW..this very minute Mom and then come back here and say that sentence again....click.....rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" She had nothing....that's when she would send me to my father. who usually would say yes to anything as long as he didn't have to do anything or didn't cost him any money.....or have to deal with this himself. Perfect! (back then of course)
The arsenal of legal and logical comebacks and arguments I had in that sense were astounding for a 10 years old looking back. it was the only way around denial as I see this now. But the goal back then...was to get away from my parents...not to stay with them and stay in that kind of environment. It hadn't occurred to me for a while at least....that my arsenal or comeback was only creating the....click......rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...and then the hostility with my wife? I didn't know? What they say....."smoke em if you got em...and use what you got." That was my credo and still is in all logistical ways. But denial is far from logical as I am now having a much better picture and understanding of the "do's" and "don'ts" of denial. And fighting denial with logic is not the way to go about it!! lol This is now as I'm seeing it....the "Cardinal Rule". lol
And as I now see this going back to the beginning of our relationship (my wife and I )
I had a complete and cohesive story I was working from.....
She had no story and was waiting to have one. Her story was buried, lost and forgotten and was wanting to have one in the first place. What she had was a dream...and that's all she had and dreams are fantasies and stories are based on reality. There is nothing wrong with dreams. I have dreams....and I have stories. Mostly stories however....as good or bad as they are....they're mine and I have them. Dreams are great and necessary for creativity....not so great when you try and merge them with reality if you don't have a real story to begin with to compare to....
And to the point....I made it my mission early on with experimenting and trying out my fantasies for a brief time when I was an early adult to only discover how disappointed I was when I actually did them for real? I've found that holding onto my fantasies and keeping them that was has a definite function in a very positive way....but only if you keep them that way. Living them spoils them entirely! lol And the creativity from them is what adds to reality and only makes it better but based on reality...not of the fantasy itself. I have no desire to fulfill my fantasies any more because of what I learned back then.
Ah ha. Comparisons? That was the answer why she hated comparisons and would get so upset by them. I was comparing my story to her dream and they were not on the same cosmic plane of reality. We were completely out of sync. But I didn't know that either at first?
How to work around this? My wife wants this dream of hers but it's not based on reality. In her dream....she wants me in it. But her own dysfunction in not seeing the "difference" with no "real" story to tell meant....she needed one before she could do that for herself. So to do that for herself...she needed to experience reality. I remember getting so angry at times with her by saying "I'm not FOR you!!!!" This just blurted out without thinking about it?
In other words now...."I'm not a Guinea Pig for you to figure this shit out from....I'm not your play thing or part of your dream world to manipulate around so you can figure this out!!!! I'm not a trained monkey or doll to go use in your play house and have a T party with!!" (god damn it) And I'm certainly not going to take the place of your imaginary friend!" And that's when it finally hit me. Imaginary friend huh? We shall see about that?
So when my wife started taking over territory...and pushing me out and into that little room I was talking about. I said fine...I can live with that. But she soon discovered that I was in my room....and she was by herself and this did not compute into her dream that she was trying to fill me into. What she discovered from that....was she was alone and that did not sit well with her. I watched how she would push me away and I would just go....but within an hour or two...she would ask me to come join her after she experienced this for herself.
I mentioned a number of times using the back door instead of the front door and this was one of the ways I found to work around her denial without a confrontation. And it worked. The most important difference in this from most of the stories I read here...is that she was the one pushing me away....and I just went voluntarily. And then she was the one calling me back....which I did gladly and willingly each time. Once I figure this out.....it was a piece of cake to do. I have no problem being alone and can entertain myself quite well and not feel lonely at all. A huge skill I learned from being this way so much when I was very young. So my indifference to loneness (not loneliness) better put..... worked here so I would not be lonely and separate from my wife. But that push pull thing really really gets old even when you know this is what's happening.
Allowing her to push me around and pull me back in like a play thing had me gritting my teeth and expending an enormous amount of energy just to keep myself level in the process.
So now....as she has come to learn a lot of these lessons for herself (by herself! lol ) has opened things up and she is beginning to come around to listening to me more which is part of me learning and understanding what she really needs and how I can help her get it. Before...it just made me angry!! No one likes to feel used and this was what this process made me feel like what was happening. She appeared extremely selfish and unwilling to compromise what so ever in trying to get her "dream" fulfilled without seeing the 3 different stories that I walked in the door seeing right from the get go.
But then again.....she doesn't like the process of me having to learn ways around my ADHD either. The difference before was...I could see the two processes between us....and she could not see anything but her dream and trying to fulfill a fantasy. What I'm not...is someone else fantasy and that was the one thing that I will never be Okay with.
So with that firmly in mind....I have my limits to what I'm willing to put up with in a good way. I had to fight for those boundaries tooth and nail...every inch of the way but knowing it was for us to be together and that was my goal all along not the other way around. Still working on it but as I put down in my debriefing (funny but accurate way of saying that:)....I see the progress and that's all I was ever after :)
As I see this now....I'm fighting for the Love we share together and fighting against anything that stands in the way of that. I've had my fill of that already long before I met my wife so.....whether my wife likes it or not until she pulls her head out of the sand completely....I'm staying on course and feel like I'm doing the right thing by her.....me.....and us. 3 different stories and one of them is being made as we speak.
J
High five
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YzX3X9iD7U
hahaha, now J, don't analyze that.....
Ha! I'm Pretty Analyzed Out Anway
Submitted by kellyj on
Seriously....trying to figure myself out was hard enough. Doing that for another person is WAY more difficult! lol
By the way....thank you for your encouragement and the nice things you said too;)
J
NowOrNever.....Something Pulled Me Back Here
Submitted by kellyj on
We talked about a lot of things in the last exchanges that we've had.....but you said something here that had a personally deep effect on me and I wanted to come back and highlight it because you explained this very well........
That imposition, force or more quiet coercion or gaslighting gets into totalitarianism. It's a far, far cry from what you and your wife live with each other daily... regardless, let's see you said, of two of you having very strong, but different opinions regarding how to do dishes. That to me is two stories bumping up against each other. As I remember you two, regardless of what each of you think about the domestic task, have worked something out about it. That's not totalitarian. Totalitarian is when someone (to pick an example that I can't remember describes anyone's life here, at least in recent forum history) takes the car keys so the spouse can't get out of the house or to work and so loses his/her job. Gaslighting, over time, is deliberately corrosive of the gaslighted person's story. So is hiding an affair. Talk about deliberately killing a truth-based narrative of relationship that the other spouse had, which guided his/her own choice of actions!
I do indeed think that I-cant-stand-that-he-does-that or worse that-he-thinks that, I have to make-him-think-other thoughts" goes on among some people at times.
Assault on or attempt to kill another person's story (whatever the motive for doing that: need for control, fear, narcissism, lack of self confidence oneself, whatever) can be through belligerance and hitting; it can be through gaslighting; it can be through playing with keeping a surface of being a "nice" or "educated" person but the pattern of action and speech is a long campaign war to cut the other person down, essentially break the other person until the other person gives up having a story.
It made my blood chill but it had some truth to it once decades ago, in a book written by a marriage counselor, I ran across the professional's remark that one thing that makes cohabitation, marriage or parenting different from other kinds of relationships, is that you show the other person (your child, your gf, your spouse) your buttons, the old flashpoints that still fire off, from wounds and lacks in your past....which means that your child, or spouse, or cohabitation partner knows EXACTLY where to stick a knife and set you off. Or even more cleverly, the parent or partner knows exactly where to stick a knife NEAR an old trigger and set it off but claim innocence.
I've tried to explain something that I personally have had experience with and if you haven't had this experience you're self you may read about it and think it's what is happening in your relationship. The difference between the two things that you mentioned here has everything to do with intention.
Intention as I am trying to word this here = with knowing ahead of time...the difference....and making a choice of doing it ........and it's not a defense mechanism.
I'll say that another way. You knowing do something to control another person thoughts or cause them harm for your own purpose. Even if a person is living in their own story and they know the difference in what they are doing.....their goal, motive , or purpose of doing it...is to manipulate and control another person.
As I see this.....this is an assault or offense and in this case.....the only reasonable and responsible thing to do is to apologize. Anything but...is just an excuse or justification. As I see this.
It comes right back to...."what is this person's intention. Intention is purposeful and by design.
As in the elbow incident....what I said to my wife was with intention, for a purpose....by design. In this case....for a good cause.
And here as you said this .....That imposition, force or more quiet coercion or gaslighting gets into totalitarianism. It's a far, far cry from what you and your wife live with each other daily... regardless, let's see you said, of two of you having very strong, but different opinions regarding how to do dishes. That to me is two stories bumping up against each other. As I remember you two, regardless of what each of you think about the domestic task, have worked something out about it. That's not totalitarian.
Right....this is absolutely true I believe....and how I came to this myself was by what I just said about intention. What I recognized my wife doing with me at times when I was trying to simple talk about something that she did not want to see or believe....was "Gaslighting" as I saw it. but as a DEFENSE without any intention or awareness that she was doing this. The reason she did this was from the same reason I have done some disgraceful things in my past that I am still ashamed of to this very day. I remember these times and I still feel ashamed...but I don't carry that shame around with me all the time. I only feel it as a reminder to myself at times if I ever feel compelled to do that thing again as an immediate reaction to something and I'm not being mindful. But why would I have done something like this in the first place? Am I a horrible person for doing it at all? The answer is no....I'm not a horrible person at all...in fact....I'm a good and caring person most the time with very few exceptions. Very few to almost never. Does one slip make me not a good person? No....it makes me human....and I apologize because I know I made a mistake and that I am aware of it.
And the reason I did it in the first place? As my T said....."the abused...takes a piece of the abuser along with them." That's why. It's also why I have to be mindful not to react immediately with what I've being compelled to do because what is compelling me....is that tiny piece that is there from the very thing you said here.....It made my blood chill but it had some truth to it once decades ago, in a book written by a marriage counselor, I ran across the professional's remark that one thing that makes cohabitation, marriage or parenting different from other kinds of relationships, is that you show the other person (your child, your gf, your spouse) your buttons, the old flashpoints that still fire off, from wounds and lacks in your past....which means that your child, or spouse, or cohabitation partner knows EXACTLY where to stick a knife and set you off. Or even more cleverly, the parent or partner knows exactly where to stick a knife NEAR an old trigger and set it off but claim innocence.
If you've never experienced this exactly by having this done to you in this specific way ( and hopefully you haven't?)...then you can't know how blood chilling it is when you experience it in real time from another person doing this to you if it's done with intention....and they know the difference...and they know what they're doing....and their doing it for a purpose. By design. And then they claim innocence.
What this is NOT is.....
denial
unintentional
without awareness
a defense mechanism
ADHD
or any other reason you can think of.
What this is....is "Gaslighting" by definition....not what my wife does at times.....or most of the stories you here on this forum. The vast majority in fact. Like you said.....you'd have to search for one to find one because this falls into a completely different category all by itself.
So why did I recognize that feeling again and said my wife was "Gaslighting" me in the past? Because the mechanism or method is the same. Functionally...it is the same thing looking at it from the outside in the moment when it happens...and what I recognized....was the feeling because that was in my personal experience and story in my past growing up.
And if I ever did anything like this myself in my past...it was from taking a piece of it with me and doing it without any awareness of it....completely unintentionally.....not chronically (only in the moment)....and with no purpose other than a defense and not even knowing that I did it. Without knowing.....with no intention....and without awareness....because I learned it or was taught to do it by that experience I had.
I can't even remember if I did..... but my feelings are....this was not one of the things I use to do. Mine had more to do with retaliation and revenge or getting back at people which was also done to me as well. My general MO is not manipulation, not controlling and I'm a terrible manipulator, politician, or salesman because of my lack in this area. I had my own "piece" that remained but different by my nature to do these things.
And so why does my wife still do this sometimes? Is she a "Gaslighert" or doing it with intention? The answer is NO. She does this on occasion only as a defense when not wanting to look at or believe what she hear's me saying.....in the moment. The same as me....for the exact same reason I did anything like this in the past. And for the same reason she has PTSD.
And what's is my wife's denial all about anyway? What is it that she can't see...won't look at....can't remember or has blocked from her conscious mind? That piece inside her..... of the person who did this to her as a child growing up...which in this case....was the real "Gaslighter" and abuser...her own mother. In the moment only....when she goes into full denial mode and is fighting me when there is no fight.....she refusing to see her mother...as this abusive person as she was....and therefore....is in denial of the very thing she can't not believe about her own mother....and cannot believe or see within herself. It's just this tiny piece she took with her that's doing that....and my wife cannot see it.....(yet). Working on it.
And why is it so painful and difficult to see or why would you refuse to even want to if it's so small and you aren't this way yourself to get rid of it and stop it? Why is it so hard and difficult for a person in denial to not be that way? And why are they so resistant or refusing to look at it?
"It made my blood chill but it had some truth to it....".......X 10 when your a child and it happens to you from the person you believe loves you. Actually....they aren't a person to you then......it's like God doing it to you.....that's why. And that's where the PTSD comes from in the first place or it wouldn't exist.
And why I know....and my wife still doesn't because it's still too painful. The wounds were caused by selfish disregard and callous indifference or your own child in this case and using their weakness to serve their own purpose. With intention.
And the only cure for the Love you didn't have.....is by Love itself. That's the only cure and what that person needs....not just understanding or being tolerated. There's your answer and the solution all rolled into one.
J
Say, J
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
It'll be a day or so before I can be back.
I just wanted to let you know that I peeked in, I've read you quickly and will come back and do a good read of what you wrote. I think you're hunting bear with this one.
As for having done to me this thing of deliberated, directed harm aimed at triggers and tendernesses, sorry to say, but had a lot of it in the beginning of my life. You and I have some similarities in our upbringing. As you say, this is something other than ADHD. Although the effect on somebody with ADHD I can see would be particularly tough, damaging.
I want to read you attentively about your thoughts about gaslighting.
Back soon.
Now
PS. Love is the answer. Yes.
Talk To You Then
Submitted by kellyj on
...about the Gaslighting.....I think there's a piece or two missing as to who's the target audience: Male version..(double standard....the hook; guilt)....Female version (playing both sides of the fence ..the hook; shame and guilt ) I'll splain later.... Gator:)
PS...(Note to self ) when you get back so I don't forget. Think in terms of 1rst and 2nd Degree Murder or a Shark vs. a Cat (cat's: only predator that kills for fun)...that'll help splain it.
Gaslighting
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
J in the next day or so I'll track where you went regarding what you think about gaslighting as a general topic and gaslighting as you in particular are involved in it, in other threads elsewhere. I think, glancing in, I see that there's been some good talk carrying the topic forward elsewhre.
I only write about topics about which I've been through some life on, on this site. That seems appropriate. So there are some topics that come up on the site that I don't participate in with opinions and thoughts although I read what people write about them
For me, these days, not in the abstract, but on the inside of my life, the gaslight issue is not whether someone is gaslighting me, the only issue I care about these days is am I gaslight-able?
I tend not to be. Nowadays.
Not Gaslight-able
Submitted by Delphine on
"For me, these days, not in the abstract, but on the inside of my life, the gaslight issue is not whether someone is gaslighting me, the only issue I care about these days is am I gaslight-able?
I tend not to be. Nowadays."
That's progress!
I think another term for gaslighting is emotional blackmail. I had a roommate who did that. She was an alcoholic and the most difficult person I had ever lived with. Taking off wasn't so easy because rents in our city are high, and our apartment was affordable. I did look around, with no luck.
Then one day, think sync...I found a pristine copy of the book Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward, PhD. The most helpful part of the book was about nondefensive communication.
She emphasizes that trying to argue, defend, make the person see reason etc., is futile. All this does is fuel the conflict. She gives examples of nondefensive responses:
1. I'm sorry you're upset.
2. I can understand how you might see it that way.
3. Really?
4. Yelling/threatening/withdrawing/crying is not going to work anymore and it doesn't resolve anything.
5. Let's talk when you're feeling calmer.
And the most nondefensive response of all:
6. You're absolutely right.
I actually used that last one on her when she came in the kitchen and started yelling at me one day out of the blue. I can't remember what it was about. I was quaking, but I will never forget the expression on her face when I said "You're absolutely right." Gobsmacked :) The tempest was effectively terminated!
It was a great day when she finally moved out! I'm still living in the same place.
Delphine
I'm glad that you're still in your place
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Good morning, Delphine. I ran your story through my memory of the insides of apartments I've been in, in cities where the rents are very high. Oof, dealing with a roommate's issues in relatively tight quarters. I'm glad that in time she moved on, and that you're still in your home.
I think the examples of non confrontational replies from Forward's book are good ones.
As a child, I was so without interior strength, that I was easily emotionally blackmailed, or gaslighted, or attackable, so this business of what I do, related to other people's actions, wishes and views, has had a long growth trajectory for me.
For me, probably the biggest piece of handling myself in a healthy way, in situations like the one you had to live in with your roommate for awhile, is self trust.
That's hard to build, if you never had it as a child, for whatever reason; or hard to rebuild, if you've been in a long siege of being gaslighted, and/or verbally assaulted and/or lied to (for whatever reason the liar has) and/or physically assaulted. I think it's a good thing to work on.
At this point, I find that in these hot spot moments when someone accuses me, pulls a stunt like trying to shame me in front of other people, gaslights me, or (it sounded to me about that incident of your room mate barrelling in to the kitchen) directly assaulting me, the ground from which I need to draw is trust of myself. In the heat of it, do I trust that I'm able to observe what is going on? In the flashpoint of the event, am I morally grounded? Self trust.
With self trust in place, either as a work in progress or having had the habit of trusting one's own intentions, memory, and even grasp of physical reality, there's not much an accuser or gaslighter can do.
Since these gambits are all power plays aimed at somehow "winning" over the target person.
If I do trust myself to know my intentions, words and actions, it's a whole lot easier to use those non-confrontational phrases, and to keep using them, throughout the exchange. Self trust helps demonstration of not being moved by the assault. So the bully or the bullying goes away, because the bullying doesn't work with a self truster.
I totally agree with your writer, that getting into a response-back, either defensive or accusative, is like pour gasoline on a bully's bullying.
I suspect from what you've written on the site that you know the literature of lending someone else your life force, or as it's often called, personal power. These gaslightings, assaults, emotional blackmailings are all power plays when they get played, to power over some situation or person...again, regardless of the need of the person walking into a kitchen and letting fire a cannon of accusation. It has to do with power. It's a bid to get power from the bullied.
You said your roommate eventually moved away. Not that you kicked her out. She took her problems away somewhere else in time.
As I see it, if I do that work of non confrontation and not voluteering to participate in a moment of someone else's power attempt...but then thereafter get into my own power game with the gaslighter, trying to get her/him to change her gaslighting spots, concerning these kinds of confrontations, that's just more power ****, in my opinion.
Who CARES about winning, in these situations? In my book, there are times to compete...fewer and fewer in my life as it goes on, but nevertheless, there can be healthy competition. There are certainly times to strive on for a goal, running one's best race, powering on toward the goal. But for me, I don't find it helpful at all, to try to fix my accuser. Again, that's just more power ****.
Probably one of my aces in the hole, and I don't have many, but I have this one, is that I believe, due to what I've seen about myself and other people in life, that I NEVER know the inside of ANYone's head. And I'm a people watcher. I think belief that one has assembled an accurate theory of mind of anyone else is...not realistic. We're not gods.
There is a REASON why therapists ask a lot of questions and listen! And there is a REASON why people with marriages in trouble go to marital counseling. I can't think of a better proof of lack of theory of mind, than marital counseling. If the husband and wife DID have accurate access to observing the inside of eachother's head and could properly understand it...they wouldn't BE in marriage counseling.
I only can see parts, not the whole, of what's in my OWN head. I think that to live in long term relations, or to work with other people in the work world, yes we do have to pay attention to other people, and have a theory of mind about them, but it's only functionalist and temporary. I think, for me, it is colossal hubris on my part, to think that I know what's going on in the soul or mind of someone who is at the moment calling me names, accusing, monkeying around with me. I really believe what I'm writing. It has been much more functional for me to work at the level of lived life with a person, words said, actions taken than for me to cobble together my godlike understanding of their interior life and operate from that. Let's just say, that I'm not too smart about being able use something magical, emotional night goggles and peer inside of someone else. For me, it's a fool's errand to recline on confidence that I have anyone figured out. **** I don't have myself half observed yet! I'll stand down from the god position, thanks.
Not speaking to you, here, Delphine. You're clear in what you write about acceptance of yourself and others. Not speaking about you.
Yes we do, have to live, in ongoing relations, with a functional theory of mind of some kind, remembering someone else's past responses, remembering what they have named in themselves, using some of these things predictively, so that we can do our best to act in terms of them...it is a relation after all...not a one way street. Yes we do. But for myself, it's healthier to allow them their own mystery to me. They're them, not a creation of my mind.
Which leaves me in these power play situations when someone attempts to play them on me with myself as the only material I can really can use. I can't go shadow boxing with my guess of what's in their head at the moment.
I'm not on this earth to fix ANYone. I was once at a lecture by a Hindu who said the same. It's all over the literature anyway. He said, the only person you can convert is yourself. Lol and from my experience of that, I'm a damn stubborn candidate for conversion. I've got my hands full with that.
So my mantra in these kinds of moments: as best you can, Now, remain at peace, trust yourself. Don't turn your eyes to yourself. Stay alert as you can. Say it once. Don't defend...there's no need to defend anyway. And that's it. That's really it.
In your writer's list of non confrontational things to say (presumably with positive, quiet, non manipulative second and third messages of voice tone and physical movement that dont send a double signal),
I like 2, because it speaks to the other person's mind and worldview, and says that the other person has them;
and 5. but even more neutrally said, since "when you're feeling calmer" is a wonderful hook for the other person to use to start shouting (lol) "I'm calm right NOW!! DON'T GASLIGHT ME THAT I'M NOT CALM" . So something even more neutral, like "Look, this conversation is not working for us at the moment. Let's talk about it later, though"
If the person is all het up at the moment, 3 sometimes isn't the time to ask them to explain themselves, in my opinion because that can revert to "there's nothing wrong with ME, what's wrong is with YOU" If things at the moment are pretty incendiary, that 3. Really? or What was/is this about? needs to happen in 5.
A couple more that I use.
7. "I'm going to do X" And then I do it. Such as: I'm not going to fight right now. We can talk about this tomorrow. But then I need to do what I say, not to fight, not to raise my voice, not to accuse, and very definitely not play with the surfaces of things saying that I'm not going to fight, but then shift over to facial expressions, tone of voice, do a bait and switch emotionally, of saying that I'm not fighting but acting like I've been victimized, but cleverly not using fighting words. Nix on that double message business. It takes commitment to do a clean job, not a manipulative job, of announcing non-participation, and then....not participating
If I can pull that off, and mean it, and not play with the other person's feelings, just do the non-participation in the fight, quietly, it begins to build the other person's expectation that if this comes up again and I say that again (for example, "I'm not going to fight") I'm going to do what I say.
I think what I'm talking about, announcing "I'm going to X right now. This is not working, we can talk about this tomorrow" did a whole lot for me and my husband, who did bring into the marriage an old pattern of suspicion of ill will and break-out accusations (plus at times so badly not hearing me that he said I said things that I didn't at times).
To this day, I have a large amount of appreciation for the baggage of that kind he brought into the new relation. You wouldn't want to wish some of his prior life on anyone. He was very harmfully handled by the best (worst) gaslighter I've ever heard anything about...thus far.
So haha on us, yes he could gaslight me while loop de loop thinking and accusing that I was gaslighting him. It was kind of a third dimension experience...are we on this earth?? . But once again sympathy and recognition for what I don't know in its full depth about, in his prior life, I would never wish on anyone what had been done to him in earlier life.
At any rate, he had to figure out me, as a distinct individual from the people (in two stages of his life) who had done such an assaultive, relentless campaign on his mental wellbeing.
There's a ton that I can't observe in his mind. He's his own person. He's not a clone of me. Nor is he an actor in my mental drama of myself. So there's a whole lot that is mysterious, day in and day out about him. That's what people are to me any way. So this mystery man would have a bad moment, and there would come some yelling, accusing, etc out of him. What the H was going on?
The steps so far have been:
1) trust myself;
2) notice our interactive patterns in these things, especially noticiing that explaining, attempting to mollify, defending and counterattacking did no good. They did no good.
3) realize...and it took awhile, but I did suss it out... that this kind of gaslighty assault, coming from him, was NOT about the reality of my motives and words. The interaction was about something related to power, his need for, likely, sufficient power over his grasp of the situation to reassure himself that his take was reality. Something like that. But no indeedy, these moments were NOT about me, and they weren't about observable physical truth, or about my motives.
4) figure out what non-participation in the power play worked profitably for us. For us both, in my best effort. I'm still at work on 4). He and I do talk well, and use it a lot. So telling him I wasn't going to play through into a conflict, and then not with my defenses, counteraccusations, explanations, adding fuel to the fire, turned out to be a help. He is very hard hit by it when he gets upset, due to his ADHD. Neither he nor I would be in good shape, if we kept peddling the bicycle of accusation-defense, round and round. But I had to do what I said, not participate, not defend, not even surreptitiously dig at him, or non participation really wasn't non participation.
5) When we do return to what the accusation or disagreement was, maybe talking it over the next day, I am working on asking him what was up with him...and listening....not immediately defaulting to my own interpretation of him, and fitting in the bits of what he says conveniently into my judgement of him. Nuts to that. I can't learn ANYthing about him if I don't LISTEN to him, on his terms, not mine.
6) And then or during 5), if I can keep a handle on it enough to delay my side of things (aka, not getting into defending, explaining myself, telling him a damn book of me, which I am very capable of doing but why would I want to flood him? It's just more overload on him), and listen to his, when it gets time for me speak up for myself I say, once, just once, what truthfully I said, did or thought. Just once. And leave it. Really leave it. No explaining. No defending. There's no reason to defend myself.
This has been with someone I love profoundly, and I'm all right, I'm really all right as I am, without his belief or approval..
.if back in the moment of accusation or being yelled at, I know that I was doing no harm. I don't need to defend myself. I'm all right.
If I was truthfull and kind, not surreptitiously doing a number on him, when he hauled off and accused me, I was doing my job as best I could and so I'm fine.
Just go on, don't keep score, don't over analyze. One statement, no I wasn't doing that. I did this. And walk on. No residual replay and interpretation in my mind, if I can pull that off. Life's too short for me to spend mental time rewriting memory of a past event until it's convenient for me. That's like what divorced people do. They retell the story of their marriage until they get a version of it that they can live with. Life is too short for that and I want to be in the present with this man with a mystery mind who I love. I don't need to renarrativize him, in my mind.
This steadiness about myself, and whatever success I've had in trusting myself and non- participation, non accusation, I think...I'm not sure, but I think....has helped him sort me out from some angry ghosts in his past. We get through these moments better, and I'd say there are 95% fewer of them than there were in the first year or two of marriage.
I'm in charge of no one. I learned my lesson decades ago in Alanon, that codependency is not healthy.
Non confrontational acceptance is pretty powerful, Delphine. I'm preaching to a lead singer in our the choir on that one : ) Have a good day.
Being True To Ourselves
Submitted by Delphine on
Thanks for replying, NowOrNever, and in such depth. Re-reading my post, I see that I left out a salient detail. I found that book, Emotional Blackmail, sitting on the street corner nearby. It really seemed like the Universe planted it there just for me! And, maybe it did!
Some responses:
"As a child, I was so without interior strength, that I was easily emotionally blackmailed, or gaslighted, or attackable, so this business of what I do, related to other people's actions, wishes and views, has had a long growth trajectory for me."
Same here...I think if one is especially sensitive/empathic, this can make us an easy target for those who need to unload their stuff onto another. Agree, self-trust is essential. If we don't trust ourselves, then we are very vulnerable. Lately I've been pondering this quote from Abraham-Hicks:
"Don't ask anyone, even your best friend, to be true to you. YOU be true to you. Let others do whatever they do. You be true to you. Say: Things always work out for me. And when you know that, you can leave everyone else and what they do out of the equation."
Yes, this kind of trust is something I'm still working on, after the long siege of my growing-up years.
"With self trust in place, either as a work in progress or having had the habit of trusting one's own intentions, memory, and even grasp of physical reality, there's not much an accuser or gaslighter can do."
Agree. I do think living with my emotionally blackmailing roomie was an object lesson for me. Abject lesson, too :) Ditto living with my son, although I don't see him as a gaslighter or emotional blackmailer, per se. I did have to learn to recognize and deal with his emotional lability and other ADHD traits.
"I totally agree with your writer, that getting into a response-back, either defensive or accusative, is like pour gasoline on a bully's bullying."
Yes.
"I suspect from what you've written on the site that you know the literature of lending someone else your life force, or as it's often called, personal power. These gaslightings, assaults, emotional blackmailings are all power plays when they get played, to power over some situation or person...again, regardless of the need of the person walking into a kitchen and letting fire a cannon of accusation. It has to do with power. It's a bid to get power from the bullied."
Because in actuality they are afraid, and feel powerless themselves. The book talks about that, too.
"You said your roommate eventually moved away. Not that you kicked her out. She took her problems away somewhere else in time."
Just FYI, I didn't have the power to kick her out. She had to leave of her own volition. She wanted a place by herself and found one. (Yay!)
"I'm not on this earth to fix ANYone. I was once at a lecture by a Hindu who said the same. It's all over the literature anyway. He said, the only person you can convert is yourself. Lol and from my experience of that, I'm a damn stubborn candidate for conversion. I've got my hands full with that. So my mantra in these kinds of moments: as best you can, Now, remain at peace, trust yourself. Don't turn your eyes to yourself. Stay alert as you can. Say it once. Don't defend...there's no need to defend anyway. And that's it. That's really it. "
Right.
"In your writer's list of non confrontational things to say (presumably with positive, quiet, non manipulative second and third messages of voice tone and physical movement that dont send a double signal), I like 2, because it speaks to the other person's mind and worldview, and says that the other person has them; and 5. but even more neutrally said, since "when you're feeling calmer" is a wonderful hook for the other person to use to start shouting (lol) "I'm calm right NOW!! DON'T GASLIGHT ME THAT I'M NOT CALM" . So something even more neutral, like "Look, this conversation is not working for us at the moment. Let's talk about it later, though"
Yes, good one.
" If the person is all het up at the moment, 3 sometimes isn't the time to ask them to explain themselves, in my opinion because that can revert to "there's nothing wrong with ME, what's wrong is with YOU" If things at the moment are pretty incendiary, that 3. Really? or What was/is this about? needs to happen in 5."
As I understand it, "Really?" is not actually asking them to explain themselves. It's a noncommital, rhetorical remark. Non-confrontational. Kind of like, "You don't say!"
"A couple more that I use. 7. "I'm going to do X" And then I do it. Such as: I'm not going to fight right now. We can talk about this tomorrow. But then I need to do what I say, not to fight, not to raise my voice, not to accuse, and very definitely not play with the surfaces of things saying that I'm not going to fight, but then shift over to facial expressions, tone of voice, do a bait and switch emotionally, of saying that I'm not fighting but acting like I've been victimized, but cleverly not using fighting words. Nix on that double message business. It takes commitment to do a clean job, not a manipulative job, of announcing non-participation, and then....not participating If I can pull that off, and mean it, and not play with the other person's feelings, just do the non-participation in the fight, quietly, it begins to build the other person's expectation that if this comes up again and I say that again (for example, "I'm not going to fight") I'm going to do what I say. I think what I'm talking about, announcing "I'm going to X right now. This is not working, we can talk about this tomorrow" did a whole lot for me and my husband, who did bring into the marriage an old pattern of suspicion of ill will and break-out accusations (plus at times so badly not hearing me that he said I said things that I didn't at times)."
Yes, excellent approach. I appreciate all that you share about your coping mechanisms with your husband. I'm sure your compassion and understanding of his emotional baggage is essential to making this work. You are very mindful and aware. I agree, it's not about explaining or defending. Just trusting ourselves, as you say, and standing in our own power.
"This steadiness about myself, and whatever success I've had in trusting myself and non- participation, non accusation, I think...I'm not sure, but I think....has helped him sort me out from some angry ghosts in his past. We get through these moments better, and I'd say there are 95% fewer of them than there were in the first year or two of marriage."
Fantastic progress!
"I'm in charge of no one. I learned my lesson decades ago in Alanon, that codependency is not healthy. Non confrontational acceptance is pretty powerful, Delphine. I'm preaching to a lead singer in our the choir on that one : ) Have a good day."
Oh, I'm still learning, NowOrNever. This forum, and sharings like yours, are a great help in that. You too have a good one.
Delphine
Finding the book
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
What a great event, encountering that book, Delphine.
I've taken a little time this morning to find out who Mr and Mrs. Hicks were, and how Mrs. Hicks is continuing their work after his passing in 2011. And about Abraham communication coming through the Hicks. I can see that your encounter with that book about emotional blackmail at just the right time for you fits in with the Abraham-Hicks teaching of a plentitudinous universe that we call into being.
Best to you on your peaceful way.
What I left out of my discussion of self trust at the moment of being verbally assaulted or whatever by another person is that I know from my life that I would have no self trust at all without knowing that I am nothing without Him.
Perhaps you and I would name different higher powers in a Twelve step discussion. From a look at Abraham-Hicks descriptions, probably so. It's the doing, though, not the labeling. You're on a way of peace in this universe. Best to you as you journey.
Both Different and Same
Submitted by Delphine on
Now...
Whatever we believe in, works for us.
Like you, I believe in a Higher Power, and this gives me strength. Jesus spoke of "the Father abiding in me." The aim of the Abraham teachings is alignment with our Inner Being, another term for the Father within. The basic aim of Christian teachings is the same.
So again, whatever works for us. Here's to alignment!
Delphine
p.s. you might find this of interest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e64eatdoOzg
: )
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Whatever blows my limited mind, leads me on.
Yes, yes, here's to alignment.
And to participation.
Rock on, Delphine : )
P.S. The Christian tradition...and Christian Scriptures... point to all of God within, not only the Father, but also the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So......it's pretty full in there ! And beyond, beyond our present limited whoeverweare, or we couldn't grow, eh?
I REALLY like that story of that book showing up for you. You already know it: when the disciple is ready, the master will appear.
Rock on, friend.
Being True to Who You Are.... Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
As your tag line says....."Acceptance is the doorway and the key." I wholeheartedly agree....but now.....what's on the other side of the door once you walk through it? Is this called Destiny or what? I'm not sure myself....but it does take on all the feelings of those archetypical characters again with no actual awareness of it and not all by imagination ahead of time and no real goal of becoming that way myself....at all!
I think Carl Jung was really on to something and this has played out in stories going back to Greek Mythology....."The Hero's Journey" to be specific. This has played out in every culture or place where humans have ever existed....it's even in the Bible. The story of the "Prodigal Son" is the same "Hero's Journey" just a different version.
These common theme and patterns are in all these stories: a Father, A Son, a fall from grace due to a young and impetuous ego and then the coming of age and the return from the fall and returning home with these lessons and then fulfilling their destiny in taking the place of the father. Or becoming the father. (The Trinity? That'll explain it I think?) It's the story of Jesus himself.....and it repeats itself again and again and again over time in every culture on the planet.
You can plug different characters into this same template to create a different story each time but the main components and the pattern remains the same and amazingly consistent no matter which way you go searching for them in any of these stories they are in.
I think the most amazing part of learning about these stories, is by dissecting them in this way....you get to see these characters..and they aren't just in story books and mythology....they are actually real if you can stand back and see the same thing happening all around you and even within yourself.
King, Queen , Prince , Princess....all apply in the exact same way. And the ultimate betrayal in each story...is the one who betrays himself by not being true to who they are. As was with Judas for example. It's all there too if you stand back and look at the characters in each different story and just move them around from one story to the next. And the cycle and pattern continues......
IMHO....based on this pattern. Everyone's true destiny is becoming the Father, Mother, King or Queen in their own story but that has nothing to do with breeding or spawning children. That in itself...does not count!! lol No special talent there as we all know. And you don't have to have children to get there either.
But I truly believe...that any time you are betraying who you are.....you are not being true to who you are at the same time. If you stay the prince or princess forever......you will never reach the end of your journey and will remain stuck in unhappiness and suffer until you do. Look at the stories from the past and present...and you will see the same pattern repeat itself again over and over. The "Hero's Journey" is the same one we're all on....but as it was for me.....I didn't know it at the time. It was never my goal to be a "Hero" or "leader" and I'm not even comfortable seeing myself in that role at all. I think that is telling to me now. Regardless of whether I wanted to or not.....I became each role in those stories and have played all those parts and charactors at some time in my life....and by the time I looked back to see them all in me at one time or another....I'm getting the feeling that there is only so many left I have yet to become.
My biggest struggle and still is...is trying to become or maintain myself in the role of the King archetype and not stay the Prince, Warrior or any of the other characters I've played myself in my past and throughout my life. This appears clear to me now as I look back to see my progress.
As I see this....the ultimate goal in fulfilling your own destiny for everyone based on this one archetypal formula...is becoming your own King or Queen and until you get to that place....you still have a ways to go. Me too.....but I'm working on it and heading in that direction.
I thinking that's what's behind that doorway and looking further past it to the end of the road. The only real tragedy (in a thespian kind of way)....is getting stuck in one of those roles and never making it to the end of the road.
And applying that to this discussion on being Gaslit by someone else......as I'm seeing it?
If a princess or prince is trying to Gaslight you...and you are a King or Queen in your story......they don't have a chance as long as you hold strong to who you are and you are being true to yourself even if you are not quite there yet. You've got to play that role even if you aren't there yet and that's the way to actually get there even if it feels like you are just going through the motions at first.
I think the reasons for a person doing this to you in the first place (Gaslighting you)....is they actually feel powerless because they are stuck being a Princess or Prince for eternity and never will be a King or Queen in their own story. ( unless they're just a predator....that's a fallen King gone bad I think)
Either way.....they're faking it and putting on a phony mask as a King or Queen....not actually following through or just going through the motions as I said. And going along with my do's and don'ts I'll add.....don't believe them....it's just an act.
All they are really....are just shadows of the King or Queen and have no idea really....what the Hero's journey is all about. Their really just trying to take short cuts everywhere they go and trying to get there that way.... by forcing or manipulating others to play the corresponding subservient or subordinate role so they will feel like the King or Queen by doing it that way instead. And it you go along with them in that much....your just sublimating yourself to them and you become trapped from continuing forward on your own journey if you let them get away with it. I think that's the most important point of all in what I've been saying. It's not for you to punish them or relatiate or for revenge yourself in doing this with you....it's to free yourself up to continue forward and not be held by all those sticky gooey strings they have you all tangled up in which prevents you from doing this for yourself. I think that what I'm been trying to say when I say "don't allow them to do this...and you need to do something in order to stop them from doing it. And why it's so important that you take charge and meet them head on let them know in no uncertain terms they will not be able to continue each time they try.
I think this is why they have to cheat in conversations as well and can't be honest in their communications. They really are just trying to find a way out of going through all that pain and work to get there and this is the repeating pattern in their story if you can see it that way as well?
I think really....they have betrayed themselves and who they are and that's the ultimate tragedy if they never get themselves out of that role in their own story. What I said earlier about the Big Lie and believing something about yourself that is not true? There you go. I believe if you can see it from that perspective....it really is quite real as this all plays out.
I also think Carl Jung was a pretty smart cookie myself:) lol
J
Meeting them head on?
Submitted by Delphine on
J, re this:
I think that what I'm been trying to say when I say "don't allow them to do this...and you need to do something in order to stop them from doing it. And why it's so important that you take charge and meet them head on let them know in no uncertain terms they will not be able to continue each time they try.
I was discussing nondefensive, nonconfrontational communications with NowOrNever, in the face of gaslighting/emotional blackmail. With this, we don't exactly "meet them head on." All too often, trying to engage a gaslighter head on, only fuels the conflict. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.
Delphine
Delphine, I'm interested in that also.
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I'm also interested in how to approach a gas lighter without it escalating on their part. And it's possible for them to go to non anger to raging in a millisecond. (I know that's not normal) I too also would like to hear about this.
Non Gaslight-able redux
Submitted by Delphine on
dedelight, see my post here and NowOrNever's reply following:
https://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/mansplaining#comment-44788
Meeting Them Head On.... Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
If you stop and think about what is really happening during these exchanges.....you have two parties (forget about which side you are on for a moment) entering into an adversarial relationship. That point of no return I am talking about? Is always when one or the other is instigating the conflict by something they are doing....and the second part joins them (in the ring...as in a boxing sparring match). The point of no return is when the sparring begins.
Sparring as defined: is a form of training common to many combat sports. Although the precise form varies, it is essentially relatively 'free-form' fighting, with enough rules, customs, or agreements to make injuries unlikely. By extension, argumentative debate is sometimes called "verbal sparring".
Taken right from the definition of sparring.....it is argumentative debate.
For someone like my wife....her particular qualities that are in her inherent nature or make up in her personality are:a very strong tendency to be argumentative and provocative ie: serving or tending to provoke, excite, or stimulate; stimulating discussion or exciting controversy.
Further.....The action, thought, or feeling is often a desired one, called forth on purpose. In fact, provocative is often used to describe actions or ways of dressing that cause sexual feelings. But provocative things can also call forth something unwanted: "She was angered by the provocative remarks."
Look at that last definition for a moment....The action, thought or feeling is often a desired one, called forth on purpose. That is.....for the provocative person that is. But not for everyone else is this is causing them distress?
For someone like my wife who is provocative by nature.....they are getting something out of being this way or they wouldn't do it. Somehow...it does serve them somehow right? I'm provocative in my own right....but I hate to argue and debate or stir up trouble. I tend to do the opposite of what my wife does.
If I'm being provocative.....my goal is to stimulate an intellectual discussion not a debate or argument. On the contrary.....I am not argumentative by nature at all. I hate Politics or controversial discussions in general and shy away from discussing religion as a rule and do not bring these two topics up unless I have a very good reason to. Political debates, shock jock radio programs, right wing talk radio and round table talking head programs make my head hurt in general. I don't enjoy them and tend to turn the channel immediately. I don't even like watching television news since it appears so transparent that the goal it seems....is to "raise consciousness" in a way that provokes a negative reaction in me. It appears completely dishonest and insincere in that there is agenda of each new broadcast to have a bias or subliminal message that comes through loud and clear. It tends to be very pointed and sharp or hits you over the head with a definite strong opinion to provoke an editorial kind of reaction while actually just reporting the facts of evidence within the reporting of a factual event.
In other words.....Broadcast news tends to be provocative....but only to provoke and adversarial reaction or response or an argument....not to stimulate an intellectual; non confrontational, non combative, non argumentative, non aggressive, non opinionated, non adversarial debate or discussion.
My approach always at any time unless I'm angry or wanting to fight (which I never do because I'm a passive person by nature)...is to be non confrontational, non combative, non argumentative, non aggressive, non opinionated, non adversarial.
Look at that last statement.....unless I'm angry or wanting to fight. Which very strongly.....I have an intense aversion to and to shy away and not be as my consistent general state of mind.....all the time, every where I go....day in day out 24/7. If for what ever reason....I become angry or feel combative...I tend to resolve that feeling quickly and return to where I was very quickly as well. I have a very long fuse to anger and do not stay that way very long. My ability to talk myself down...maintain composure and not loose my cool is normally very good because of this.
Because I'm passive. It is my nature. It is my equilibrium and balance to be this way.
My wife however....is provocative for a different purpose...and it's the same purpose that I stated about News Television programs...... only to provoke and adversarial reaction or response or an argument. If I say yes....she says... no. If I say go....she says...stop. If I say...like this....she says....I don't like this. In every case....she takes the opposing position to every I say and it's always negative. Glass half full.....glass half empty. I've long since learned....to never share things that are of any emotional importance to me or mean something personal to me since....she will usually take a big dump right in the middle of it and I've learned not to..... so that won't happen. I can always count on her to "piss in the soup" since this seems to be her inherent tendency so I keep those things to myself and just don't share them with her. There are many things I do not share with my wife because of this and I keep 80% of what I'm really feeling to myself mostly. These aren't secrets since I am generally extremely open and willing to discuss anything. I just like to keep my treasures that way.....treasures....and don't need anyone tarnishing them by peeing all over them. Their mine anyway and I don't have an intense need to share them unless someone is interested.
With my wife....I share very little in this way...in fact....when she gets hostile.....I share nothing with her and keep 100% or anything meaningful to me....completely to my self to keep them protected. I have no need to share. But I like to share...and I want to share and I enjoy it as long as the other person is too. If they aren't interested....Se la vie? I can keep it all to myself without a problem as long as I know who does and who doesn't. That includes the mind melting conversations. I have no intense need to share them either unless I have something of importance to say and/or the other people are listening or enjoying my stories.
The same as what I write here on the forum. I have no need to vent or express my emotions here if that is all I need to do. I can't know exactly how anyone feels about anything I write....but my first and primary function or goal....is is write or share something of value that anyone might be able to use for themselves that will help them. If I'm being provocative (mostly not always)....I'm usually doing it with some awareness and with a purpose. I've learned a great deal on how to do this better since my skills in being provocative are generally poor to start with.
And in that respect....going back to my passive nature.....if I'm being assertive and provocative in general...it tends to comes out all at once and right in your face to get it out and return to being passive again. I can be very aggressive if I want to be. It's a misnomer to think that passive is a lack of ability of being aggressive. On the contrary...I just don't where it right on my shirt sleeve where everyone can see it. Not to confuse this with a short fuse or ticking time bomb like I said earlier.....when I'm being aggressive and even hostile or angry.....in general...I have a great deal of control in this area but can out fight, be more aggressive and be as adversarial and combative as any one. Actually....even more so than many people than I have encountered who appear more aggressive on the outside. This to me appears more of a false vabrato than anything else sometimes in that people in that category tend to like to pick a fight....but then not actually want to follow through with it like a Bully for example.
So to put this together for you in a complete form.....I'm passive, happy, optimistic and rarely provoke and argument or fight with anyone. It is 100% not in my nature to do so what so ever where ever I go. In fact....I tend....not to stand out....not to draw attention...and will go to the back of the class room and sit in the last row...instead of right up front where every one can see or hear me. I am most comfortable picking my time and place to let my extrovert freak flag fly but when I do....I will be on the front edge of fun and excitement and first in line when it comes to fun and entertaining and enjoyable light hearted things....including humor.
In other words.....I'm reserved in real life and (even if not on the internet). But I can not be too.(that's an important thing to note here) Either way it's by choice. What I do have a strong need for however....is for privacy when I need it. If a person will not give me the privacy I need (as in the example of not sharing what I don't want to share with my wife in my example) and someone comes bulldozing into it....I can be subtle or not so subtle in how I direct my response to them. This is where I become kind of black and white my self but that is not the norm for me.
An example of this would be sitting on a park bench and enjoying just sitting and watching people and the scenery. This is a private moment for me that I do not want to share. Thinking of a real life situation where a evangelical person came to sit down and try and have a conversation about religion with me with a definite intention to try and get me to convert to Christianity and preach the "word' to me. For me...this is a completely invasive and presumptuous experience and I hate talking about religious and avoid controversial topics anyway...and even less in social settings which I avoid like the plague. Let alone...want to talk about it with a complete stranger who I know exactly what they're doing and even what they are going to say. So much so....that I know exactly how to get rid of them if necessary too.
If you want to see someone come alive and respond in an aggressive and assertive manner....you'd be picking the wrong person to do this with when it comes to violating my personal space and boundaries. I don't do it with hostility and anger like I said which is not in my nature normally....I do it by attacking them at the core of their belief in a way there is no way to escape or get away from....and I do it with logic and reason in a very obvious and mostly demeaning and unmistakable way. This is my "less than subtle" approach if a person like this fellow in my remembrance....will not seem to "get the hint" after I've already stated I'm not interested. The words...."pushy"..."bossy", "invasive", "aggressive" and ultimately "disrespectful" come to mind here as how I feel about this.
Once the "hint" seems not to work....is when the black and white, adversarial and highly assertive and aggressive part of me gets enacted. Once I go there its....."game on." If this is the game.....I am more than a worthy opponent and if that's the case and this is the game being played. I play to win and I'm very good at winning games.
So the last thing you want to do with me is get my "game on" attitude enacted because I will win every time or die trying. My competitive side of me is extremely strong if it becomes a serious match to win and not just sparring. Lke I said.....I'm the wrong person to pick if sparring is your goal or the game that's being played. I don't spar.....I win. There is no sparring in my vocabulary if my boundaries are being violated in this way.
So if someone like this evangelical guy sits down and wants to spar and push and preach or convert me by imposing their beliefs (or mind) onto me when I'm sitting there quietly minding my own business.....this is the equivalent to a boxer squaring off with me and wanting to fight.
And in that respect....I'm the one to give it to them and the wrong person to pick if this is not what you want and you only want to spar. I don't spar.....I warn....I hint....I say No.....and then I explode into full combat mode if they will not take their "strong will" out of my face! lol
I'm saying this and being honest about myself here to say....this is one my least desirable qualities in one respect....but it is one of those skills I learned from someone who did this better than I could ever do which was my father. I learned from the best as I said....and if used wisely...it's not a bad skill to have....if used to attack someone in this way.....I can cause a lot of damage in a hurry which was why my father did it.
In the case of this poor unwitting evangelical guy I'm remembering...who wouldn't go away....in my own vernacular when I'm in full competition mode like this.....he was "childs play" and I Fucked with him so hard....I literally had him in tears with only the things I said. It wasn't to be cruel or get some kind of enjoyment out it like my father.....it's only purpose was to serve to make him leave and go away in a non physically violent kind of way. Verbally and psychologically violent?.....get out of town!! lol Which was an extremely effect tool in doing it so I could return to enjoying the scenery and people watching privately by myself and to retain my boundaries that this person would not respect.
This as I just described.....is a repeating scenario with my wife for a very similar if not exactly same kind of situation. In this case....neither one of us wins aside from me always winning if this is the appraoch she tried to use on me.
As I look at this....it's not even fair. I can win all day long if someone wants to play this game with me but here's what I now think and feel about this. I think this is being a bully myself in the face of someone trying to bully, push or impose them selves on me like this and invade my space and personal boundaries.... and this is just tit for tat. This is nothing to be proud of and is the least effective way to do anything unless you want that person to just go away. Like the guy in the park trying to push his belief system on me. It wasn't that I even disagreed with him because mostly....I didn't. but I also believe so strongly that you or anyone else should have the right to their privacy and need to asked first if this is Okay and given the choice to say NO.... before they just bully their way into and impose themselves onto to you... due to there own strong will, and aggressive nature that has a belief behind it that they have every right to do so. This is what made me angry and combative with this gentleman and nothing else. Bottom line.....I did not want to talk to him or anyone about anything right at that time.....I just wanted to be left alone and have my own private personal space to enjoy. And the last thing I ever want to talk about...is religion or controversial topics even if I did want to talk to him. Double whammy. Thirdly.....I didn't want to talk to anyone period.... but I was polite enough to say so in very courteous fashion and this person then just continued on anyway. This person without knowing it....crossed multiple boundaries lines and personally violated me on several levels and would not stop when I asked them nicely. And to have to explain all that too him even with more multiple hints...left me with little other choice if I wanted to remain seating where I was and not get up and move. Which I didn't want that either.
So.....I stayed and he left and I returned to exactly where I was before he sat down next to me and what I did was very effective in doing this and worked perfectly to get me what I wanted. It was exactly what I wanted....but I had to do that in order to get there.
Was this a successful interaction between the two of us? For me it was.....in fact, it was completely successful and I got everything I wanted out of it at the other persons expense in the shortest and least amount of time from point A to point B and used my lowest common denominator thinking to get there...or one might also say...."Base" thinking.
Was this "mean spirited" or just "mean" on my part. Absolutely.....with intention to be as mean as possible. The reason why was not to be cruel....the reason why was to get what I wanted and to make this person leave and it worked perfectly to do so.
So does this say I have a "mean streak" in me and I'm a mean person in general? No....and that's the problem. But I did use meanness to get what I wanted for a specific intentional objective but I don't have a mean streak at all. That's a problem as I see this...not for anyone else but me in this case. It's because this left me feeling a little bad about myself and ultimately....was left with a bad feeling and wishing this person had never chose to talk to me in the first place since if he hadn't.....I wouldn't have that bad feeling. I could easily blame him for doing this to me and on that level of thinking....I would be right.
In this case....I used overwhelming force and "shock and awe" to get there and this person had no ability what so ever to respond or retaliate with me which was exactly what I wanted as well.
I met this guy head on....and came out victorious and I won in this adversarial relationship and I use the fact that he instigated it and violated me as my justification to do so. Some may see this as reasonable...and some may not....but no matter what....this was a no win situation for this guy before he even sat down and said one word to me but he completely couldn't see it and further....probably walked away thinking everything but not doing this again to the next person he walked up to and I'm sure...it didn't stop him from doing it again and probably didn't care if anyone liked this or not. This was probably not the first time this has happened to him but he just continued to do it anyway.
There are so many things wrong about this interaction....I don't know where to begin or who to blame. The only way to see this as a win for anyone would be to try and determine who was more wrong because no one was right between the two of us. All this was....was a battle of who is better at being self righteous and self righteousness is wrong to begin with. In this case.....we both lost but I did meet him head on.
I have more to say but I need to come back later to include how this relates to my wife and I and put this all together using this example as a means to do so.
part 2 to come:)
J, perfect description
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I can't believe how well you described what also goes on between my husband and myself, except the roles of ADHD are reversed in our case. My H will also take the opposing side of almost every statement I make,especially if there is ANY emotional aspect to it.
He can throw a bucket of ice water on any "happy" or upbeat conversation, and at the dinner table, can leave me feeling "gobsmacked" in the face with a single comment, which is usually adversarial in nature, which to me "feels" hostile and like he is venting an inner anger he can't get out some other constructive way. He also dislikes confrontation, but his angry comments stir up hard feelings in many, which then he gets surprised and angrier if the person it's aimed at, RESPONDS and expresses anger BACK at him in a retort.
I am slow to anger like you, but I have been backed into a corner a few ttimes and came out yelling. With our situation, where it came to me leaving, AND me telling him in a calm YET direct way that I can't play this "game" anymore, I know has left him confused. I guess the game is total miscommunication, since he knows so little about his disorder. I could no longer "wait" for him to understand without it severely affecting me even more.
I am SO glad though for this Site, because I am learning so much from you and all the others. I'm learning MY negative role in this, and its a hard look at myself. I have to run,but want to say more later. Thanks J.
Dede
Part 2 Meeting Them Head On
Submitted by kellyj on
So Delphine. In the situation I have with my wife. What happens is very much like what happened in my example of my interaction with this evangelical man who wouldn't leave me alone after I ask him to leave me alone. This is a Catch 22 situation...or....Kobayshi Maru situation ( for all you Star Trek fans.
What is this guy going to do differently? Nothing. That's the answer. That puts the ball in my court and I have to decide what to do? I could leave and walk away.....and that's one choice.
Or I can stay and just be held hostage by this guy who won't stop even though I asked him too? Now what?
What I didn't include in that story was....when the guy got so upset after having his belief system attacked by me my covert way of doing it...he got up and made some disparaging remark to me and I just flipped him the bird by raising my hand and never looking at him or acknowledging him again. He even asked for money on top of it which was I think....part of his scam.....maybe yes....maybe no. I don't know? (there it is again...I don't know?)
So when I brought up her splitting and Mini Me........this part of her needs to say something or get it's two bits in always. She can't just say what she wants without that dig in there somewhere. This is what Melissa was saying about ambivalence and poking the Hornets Nest.
When my wife splits....she has two incongruent beliefs or thoughts that are both needing to be heard at the same time. Which both come out at the same time as I hear her. When I was saying that Mini Me is a little prick (or Bitch?)....I'm not wrong in saying that. Mini Me is very self righteous and needs to be heard. While at the same time.....my wife is being reasonable. Mini Me has always got to have her two bits thrown in to every conversation since Mini does not have a voice of her own.
So really....there are three heads in this situation and only one of them mine. And like the evangelical guy doing the same thing...there's him....Jesus....and me....all talking at the same time. This is impossible to have a real conversation with. The guy is assuming the role of Jesus....but he's not Jesus himself.
And my wife is taking on the angry little girl with no voice...who never got what she wanted....and herself with me at the same time.
What I had never actually seen or didn't know that was new to me that I mentioned to NON....was when we were having a discussion about this after the fact since we're starting to do this....I realized what the problem was by what I was doing.
This is what my T helped explain to me. What's happening with my wife when she splits...is a form of regression. Mini Me...is actually a manifestation of this nasty little girl I was talking about.....but just the angry, unheard, unloved little girl she was in her past. That's who Mini Me is and why I feel like slapping her around. This little girl is totally unruly and misbehaved and is acting out all over the place when ever she emerges. And what makes her emerge....is any time she has to compromise or negotiate a difference which next to admitting..."I don't know"...."compromising" giving in, relinquishing control, or anything that reminds her or triggers her which puts her back to that time again. This gives her the reasoning ability and problem solving ability of a angry child who is having a tantrum. And with it....comes the same irrational logic and thinking of a person that age.
And the reason she became that way....was from that unresolved thing that she has yet to see....how domineering, controlling and child like her own mother was in those same moments with her and just over powered her by reacting with anger instantly as means to control her with no emotional ability to control herself as well. In this case....it was a child....rearing a child and that's what you get.
Her mother....got what she wanted no matter what...by hook or by crook....she was going to get her way at all times no matter what you did. There was no taliing her into anything of in preventing her from getting her way. She put herself first...in every situation and would do anything to get there and it didn't matter what anyone else wanted...even her own children. Always. This was her mother.
Everyone had to come to her rescue. Everyone had to come to her aid. Everyone had to do something....while she did nothing or put no effort into it. Her mother.....forced you to put her first and if the situation didn't call for it. She created a situation that did. You...never had a choice with her mother since her mother removed any chance or ability to have a choice to begin with. That includes any ability to compromise with her....have a voice with her....and have any kind of say in the matter. If it was her choice....it is good. If it's not her choice....it's bad.
Me...you.....good.....bad.......right......wrong.......black.......white. If it was her....is was good. If it's you......it's bad.
This is how the mind of a 3 year old works. And this was the full time thinking of her mother....24/7.
My wife however....does not think like this. But what happens when she Gaslights...or splits and has her distortions....she got her mother doing this to her (which is you actually doing it to her)......and herself. In my wife's case.....when she regress's and splits.....I'm her mother now doing this which is a transference of that experience onto me.
So that instantaneous anger.....is the little girl being over powered by her mother and she can't see or think her way out of it.
And this little girl....only has one point of view. The same as a 3 year old. That was the thing I just discovered when we were trying to have a conversation about this later.
What I had tried to do so many times in the past....was offer my wife multiple points of view in order to see things from a different perspective. This is what adults do. Offer different perspectives in seeing the same thing so both can find one that they agree on or come to some compromise to. Try doing that with a 3 year old? It doesn't work. A 3 year old only has the capability to see one point of view and CAN"T see any other no matter how many you offer them.
So in the very essence of this....when my wife splits and I'm fighting with her and she Gaslights me...she using the only defense she knows which she learned from her mother who was doing it for a different....more offensive reason as a means to control her when she was little.
So look at what's happening. My wife is regressing, transferring, using denial, and ant other defensive strategy in the book to serve one purpose....so she won't have to compromise or give up something like she did when she was a little girl. And probably....she acted out in the same way to get what she wanted back then too. All of this....is where those distortions come from and my wife has very little control of this when it happens. What she does as her first line of defense if things start to not go her way....is to run away or dismiss you immediately or try and predict what she isn't getting by trying to control you up front.
This just happened this morning for example. I was sitting on the computer and my wife wakes up. First thing she does is start calling to me in an irritated way that I hadn't done something but I hadn't done anything. I couldn't even hear what she said because she's doing it from the other room before she even comes to the room where I'm sitting. When I asked her to say it again, she said..."will you clean up after yourself!! In a harsh voice."
I said.."I don't know what you are talking about?" But I did but I wasn't going there.
She said "I hear the TV on so that means I'm coming into a mess in the other room" She likes to sit in the room where the TV is first thing in the morning when she wakes up.
I said.."I don't know about any mess....but if you want the TV off...do you mind doing that yourself so I don't have to get up to do that for you?"
I said this because I had cleaned the room already and it was just as it should be.
Now I could get angry with her for this on a number of levels. Speaking to me harshly....accursing me something I didn't do....disturbing me for no reason and generally just be annoying and a pain in the ass. And I would have a legitimate right to be this way if I wanted to be all self righteous myself.
But what I choose to see is an angry little girl....who was angry for a very good reason. What that little girl really was...was a beautiful wonderful little girl full of Love and excitement...who had that squashed to pieces by a selfish mother who always put herself first. All that little girl ever wanted in the world....was to be put first just once....and have her way.
So when my wife walked into the room....she didn't say anything at first. Then after a few moments....I heard her say....Thank you for picking up after yourself....and I'm sorry for accusing you of not doing that.
So for my wife......"I don't know".....serves a purpose....in getting to that place to begin with. If I respond or react or try and talk to that angry little girl (Mini Me)....all I'm doing is asking for trouble.
The same when she starts to ramp up or Gaslights me. "I don't know"...is the only thing that serves to defuse her and nothing I ever tried to do before worked at all. If it's not completely neutral...or had anything of what I wanted for myself in there what so ever (positive or negative)...it absolutely would not work. Neutral...which means you are getting anything from her in those moments....will do any good what so ever.
Is this a pain in the ass to hear her wake up and start calling out and accusing me of things that are happening? You bettcha. But in reality....the fighting was what was doing the damage and what happened this morning was not a fight.
And the more I do this with my wife. The more she learns her lesson that way....by walking into the room and finding she was wrong....she learns it that way instead. I'm not teaching her anything by doing this any other way. For my wife....(and Mini Me the angry little girl that has the reasoning capacity of a 3 year old in those distorted moments) there is only 1 point of view she can see and it's so narrow...she cannot see anything else.
Cannot....not.... will not. She has no ability or capacity to do it the way I want..... and that's what I realized when I discovered her inability to have more than one point of view she can see when that happens. This is a disability or incapacity....not by choice and not that she doesn't want to or chooses to be this way.
This the part....that I can understand and give her that kind of grace without a problem. The fights were the problem....not what happened this morning.
And ...."I Don't Know" is the solution for my wife to get there. I meet my wife head on with "I don't know" and it work to serve this purpose and that's really all I wanted. That's why it works. It works the same with Gaslighting or even when she starts to get angry. I can't stop that....but I can stop doing what I was doing and get to the same place anyway. (even if it's annoying and a pain in the ass sometimes like this morning)
If you stand back and look at this.....I am actually going head to head with a angry little 3 or 4 years old so that's how I approached this in my final way of resolving it in my mind. And I'm Okay with this even if someone else may not be.
Bottom line.....what you don't want to do..... is meet self righteousness with more self righteousness yourself Head on. If the person in front you is doing that with you....best to let them see it on their own by doing things that will serve that purpose. That's still meeting them head on....but using a different method to get there :)
J
Just to Be Sure Here...
Submitted by kellyj on
I just wanted to reiterate something here. If you are in a no win situation or "Kobayashi Maru".....the only choice you have is: not to panic, keep a cool head, and to think your way out of it and talk yourself down to do this....so you can look for a different solution....to solve the same problem and approach it from a different way.
Especially....if the person you are talking to...does not have the same ability you do and can only see things from ONE way only. You aren't going to talk that other person out of being self righteous to say the least. This will not work:)
Just like Capt Kirk..... Anyone who can out smart a computer...is Okay in my book! lol
https://youtu.be/EzVxsYzXI_Y
J, all I can say
Submitted by dedelight4 on
J, all I can say is WOW. Love this. You have a great therapist, thAt actually gives you amazing feedback. Thank you for learning and then sharing it with us. .........wow.
Hi Dede
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm speaking to Non and Delphine too. I just read through the Aidedo information and watched the video. Very cool stuff. I took Karate years ago and I loved the stories and the philosophy that we learned. It really shares the same common philosophy and mind set. I can say that in some ways even years later....I've absorbed some of it enough to have it planted in there somewhere. At the time....we were doing only no contact dance or kata's and I still remember a couple. I even took Ballet one term in college when my roommate who was on the football team talked me into it so he wouldn't be the only guy in the class. He took it to improve his agility and balance and I actually liked it for that too and at least....I learned to like it where before...I had no interest at all.
All of this is to say that as I read what Dede said about having a good therapist...it reminded me of what he did once that sounded really cool as well. He went to a retreat where they spent nearly a week....preparing the participants mentally to walk barefoot across a bed of white hot coals. It still amazes me of how anyone can do this....but he said at the end of the week....everyone walk right on the coals and it didn't burn their feet (much...he said a little) or feel any pain?
So within his teaching...he's really into the mental discipline aspect of training yourself to have control and discard pain and learn to discipline your mind and he's passed on some of the things he learned to me as well. I really do think it helps quite a bit and I know it's made a difference. I personally love this stuff and would like do return to some kind of martial arts myself. Anytime you are combining your body and mind together in some kind of integrated movement.....your doing yourself so much good in all ways no matter which one you pick.
Having said that what NON said here goes right along with another that my T said to me a long time ago.....
Perhaps people by the orientation of their personality and stage in life, find the peaceful way that fits them and works for them.
What he said was (paraphrasing now) " if you take two different chemicals and combine them together....each one will titrate a little differently depending on many different variables like concentration, heat etc...No matter who you are with....depending on each different person that you could ever be with....once the chemical reaction starts to take place...it will eventually finds it's equilibrium and that will always be different since no two people are ever going to combine the same way and each reaction is going to take on it's own unique mix of the two into one final product."
I can only say from my own experience....that he is really right on this. As much as I've learned from being with one person and taking what I learned from that...not as much as I would have thought would help or even apply to the next person I was with.
And even with my wife now....I've had to find a completely different way of doing things for her comparing her to anyone else I've ever been in a serious relationship with. It really is almost like starting from scratch in many ways.
I also wanted to say one thing if I haven't yet. In my past....I had did what many people do and ended up with someone who was almost the opposite of me. Opposites might attract at first....and because they different....many things do not conflict with each other at first. But later when those chemicals finally come to rest. Those opposites definitely work against you later on and are much more difficult to overcome.
And I did that for the same reason many people do this. It might feel different....but also familiar and comfortable too. As I found out the hard way....that comfortable familiar feeling is not all for a good reason. Many times what's comfortable....is the dysfunction of your familiar past that you grew up in. I did this too without knowing why the attraction and it ultimately did not work.
What's interesting with my wife now....she and I have our conflict areas and but heads with each other.....but in this odd way it works....we are more similar....than we are different. It may not feel as comfortable at first (which it didn't at all)...and even almost strange without the same initial ecstasy and excitement as before for me....but both my gut and my T were both telling me that I had to see this as a good sign instead one that says to move on keep on looking which in some ways....that's what that feeling said at first.
And now what I think that feeling said was...you picked someone just like yourself! lol And the problem is....we're perfectly matched in more ways than we are different which is why we are butting in to each other! lol We don't fight or argue about much other than the environment issue and how we are not the same temperament mostly. Everything else....we don't seem to have a problem of get into conflicts with.
I guess if you can't live with yourself....who can you live with? lol
Now if I can just get rid of Mini Me.....I think we'll be doing fine! lol
A work in progress for both of us.
And Thanks you guys...for all the support and information that you've added here....it's great to have as many options and ways to get there as you can......(and putting up with me as well;)
J
The Power of Qi.....NowOrNever
Submitted by kellyj on
This has been with someone I love profoundly, and I'm all right, I'm really all right as I am, without his belief or approval..
.if back in the moment of accusation or being yelled at, I know that I was doing no harm. I don't need to defend myself. I'm all right.
If I was truthfull and kind, not surreptitiously doing a number on him, when he hauled off and accused me, I was doing my job as best I could and so I'm fine.
Just go on, don't keep score, don't over analyze. One statement, no I wasn't doing that. I did this. And walk on. No residual replay and interpretation in my mind, if I can pull that off. Life's too short for me to spend mental time rewriting memory of a past event until it's convenient for me. That's like what divorced people do. They retell the story of their marriage until they get a version of it that they can live with. Life is too short for that and I want to be in the present with this man with a mystery mind who I love. I don't need to renarrativize him, in my mind.
This steadiness about myself, and whatever success I've had in trusting myself and non- participation, non accusation, I think...I'm not sure, but I think....has helped him sort me out from some angry ghosts in his past. We get through these moments better, and I'd say there are 95% fewer of them than there were in the first year or two of marriage.
I'm in charge of no one.
I wanted to come back here now to what you said. As I read this the first time....I recognized the power within it. That's the power of Qi talking.
What you mentioned about what divorced people do did not strike me wrong at all. I think you are absolutely right. Adding here....the problem isn't so much about trying to rewrite the past as I see it. The problem is trying to fit the past to the story...and keep doing it until it sounds right and is palatable....and then running with it. This is the same problem repeating itself....
Trying to fit the world and all the people in it.....to your story. And if it doesn't fit....just keep rewriting it until it does. Your trying to make the world fit to you.....you are not fitting to the world you live in ....including...the people in it as I see this?
An ADHD phenomenon to add here. If you don't know you have ADHD....your past story will not include that in it. That's a bit different than trying to fit the world to you which is exactly what you've been doing all along since....you don't know why you don't fit and you think it must be everyone else??
So if that's true as I have found. You do need to go back and rewrite the past story only because...you got it all wrong to begin with and it requires you to do that to a certain degree...to learn where you went wrong and learn from your mistakes that you didn't know at the time.
As I see this.....this is the process of you trying to fit to the world not the other way around. For someone without ADHD....I'm thinking the need to do that might not be there in context to what you were saying? And in that....I am absolutely agreeing with you still.
And returning to Gaslighting assaults which make you question yourself and put doubt in your mind and erode your self confidence in the process.....and take on blame and guilt in the kind of underhanded way of going about it by this technique used.
The power of Qi says exactly what you said.
This has been with someone I love profoundly, and I'm all right, I'm really all right as I am, without his belief or approval..
If back in the moment of accusation or being yelled at, I know that I was doing no harm. I don't need to defend myself. I'm all right.
If I was truth full and kind, not surreptitiously doing a number on him, when he hauled off and accused me, I was doing my job as best I could and so I'm fine.
I'm in charge of no one.
Coming here has done one thing for me and was my goal in the first place. To make sure I'm right in what I say so I don't need to second guess myself in the moment and keep moving forward and not get hijacked.
The most insidious part about someone who Gaslights is.....they look for any weakness to exploit and use against you. For myself....nothing piss's me off more and I really needed to get a hold of that since...I can't do anything about every tiny thing that having ADHD does that is causing no harm to anyone including myself. Getting angry about being Gaslighted in itself was the problem to begin with. Now...I've got two problems to deal with where before it was just the one. The anger and reaction on part was putting my head right into the noose.
But even when I stopped reacting and reduced it down....my wife would find a way to push that button so hard repeatedly that now I was just so irritated from someone doing that it was all that I could do not to get angry again for a second reason. Stepping up the efforts to get me angry countering my efforts not to in equal proportions. errrrrrr! lol
Even when you know this....it is very difficult to maintain your composure.
Somewhere earlier....I mentioned being deliberate. This was in my initial efforts in being more subtle and still indirect not to set her off.
As I found and even in my story with the evangelical guy in the park. Hints....don't work period. Being deliberate means being very clear and forceful but not forcing yourself onto the other person.
For me....being forceful, deliberate and having to expend that much energy in respect to my passive comfort level in the face of someone who's comfort level is aggressive by nature.....takes a lot of effort in comparison to match them even if you are doing what you are doing.
But as I have found in light of what you said. It may take you to summon some energy to do so....but if you speak as if you mean it...and you mean what you say.....that takes far less energy than anything else you can do....and just simply walk on and keep moving forward.
Not agreeing. Not disagreeing. Neutralizing them and vaporizing their accusations by stating it like it is and knowing you are right....with some authority behind it......in the face of someone being authoritative and controlling with you. You are matching their energy and neutralizing them.
When I say this is a pain in the ass for me. It is. I'd rather not. It does take energy....but if you draw your energy from your Qi as it is described....you are tapping energy from the universe and drawing the infinite power from that source.
I've found the more I can do this....the better I learn to Tap that power and it does not drain me in the same way.
I think what it feels like when I can do this successfully...is walk away feeling good about myself...and that I had a successful interaction in the face of one I'd rather not have in the first place.
I think that's what the power of Qi is all about the same in the Aikedo that you brought up here. I had to go back and revisit this again since it's been almost 30 years since I first learned this in the Karate I took. But hey....I still remember the stories even after that much time. They are still fresh in my mind.
I think you and I are speaking the same language even though it still takes me longer to get there! lol Still working on that! lol
J
That's it, J. And from that
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
That's it, J. And from that central grounding and balance, you are in the moment and take particular action tailored to the situation.
See (read) you soon,
Now
My 2 cents...
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I could be way off but I am thinking she may be referencing forgiving herself, for starters, and with that will come forgiving others.
I identify a lot with her......in navigating my 43 year marriage I have come to see what I brought knowingly and unknowingly into this.I have learned for myself the why, where and WTH's of MY behavior(non add wife). So along with learning about his ADD I delved into ME. I did this so we could do better because ..well.....because.....isn't better....a good thing? Where we were at CERTAINLY wasn't. Learning to accept what had transpired in my life(prior to my spouse) was a very interesting journey and required seeing the good bad and ugly. Letting go of the realization of not KNOWING but NOW seeing why I thought the way I thought was hard! I was innocently wrong. I can't go back and do it over. So much would have changed. I HAD to forgive....myself and those who impacted my life(well intentioned but not "good") and just life...period.So here I am trying to figure out my marriage along withmyself......OVERWHELM! (can you identify with that word?)
What I have come to see, in my marriage that is causing a HUGE problem is my spouse does not SEE me as an individual who has value...APART FROM HIM.He appears to only SEE me as his wife....and I am well aware of his ideas of THAT position (which of course came from somewhere in his upbringing).
So here is where I am at, does the ADD prevent him from seeing me as an individual? Is this too much to want? If he is incapable of seeing ME apart from him I don't know how to forgive(this) and stay in the marriage but I can forgive and move on....neither one appeals to me. I am very TORN in what/how to forgive in this particular situation.......perhaps you are seeing the same with LIZ? Perhaps you are experiencing the same thing,somewhere for yourself?
Forgiving yourself, I found, is hard and that can lead to making it hard to forgive others. Mastering forgiving yourself can pave the way to giving that to others.
I wish you well in your endeavor to navigate this time in your life!!! WE are ALL good people at heart.....we ALL bleed the same for different reasons....finding the proper bandage is not always quick and easy.
If You Think About It.......Zapp
Submitted by kellyj on
you CAN only really forgive yourself if you can see it from that perspective. Looking at it that way.....you CAN"T forgive anyone else unless you can forgive yourself because that's all you can do. Think about that one for a while....it'll really twist you brain...(in a good way lol )
Back to...what might feel like you are forgiving another person...is really just empathy.....as my T was saying it to me:)
J
Pretend I'm One of Those Ladies.....ADH9er
Submitted by kellyj on
...and forgive me for being boorish and cleverly excusing myself for butting in here. lol
Yesterday...I wrote this to you....
To use the tools I'm talking about....you have to be paying attention on the inside. Not trying to change or do anything...just watch and pay attention....just like learning any new tool and watch how it behaves and works.
What I know without a shadow of a doubt now from doing this?
Some things feel wrong and you shouldn't do those things.
Some things feel wrong but you should do those things.
Some things feel right and you shouldn't do those things.
Some things feel right and you should do those things.
There is no book or no amount of reading that can tell you which one to do and how to the tool...or tell you which one to pick.
The only way to do that....is to test it and try and see if it works from experience. Which means....letting go of the story, what you were taught or told to do, forget about what you read in a book....and try it and see if it works.
The two most difficult ones to get past even when you do all of that....are the ones that feel wrong but are the right thing to do. This has nothing to do with laws or things written. The only way to know is to ask someone who's been there to help decide if you should....but once you even know that.....you still have to do it before you will actually learn anything new.
What feels wrong in so many cases I have found.....is exactly the right thing to do. Doing what feels right or what you've been told, read or learned in those cases.....is exactly the opposite of what you should do even if it feels right.
But once you experience that even just once.....you will know what to do each time you get there immediately and you will not hesitate to do it again.
But....as they say....."you can't get there from here."
The only way is to experience it and that will be the transition from..... here....to there.
It's the only way even if it feels wrong at first. But, you will know it when you get there with no questioning it for sure....that's all I can say.
Your still trying to get THERE from HERE....and like they say.....you can't do it that way because you can't get there from here. Like I said....all the reading and knowledge in the world won't do you a bit of good......unless you apply it and actually USE the TOOL once you have it in your hand.
If it doesn't feel like true forgiveness....chances are....your not using the tool correctly...... or applying it ..... at all?
"But, you will know it when you get there with no questioning it for sure....that's all I can say."
"The proof....is in the tasting of the pudding......" Which means.....you've got to put that pill in your mouth and actually swallow it!! No mater how bad it tastes and big it is....."pride, ego, shame, insecurity, etc. etc. etc........"
"Some things feel wrong but you should do those things.....The only way is to experience it and that will be the transition from..... here....to there.....and you'll know it when you get there. For SURE! Without having to question it. For SURE!"
What it is...my brother. ( if I'm Lying...I'm Dying) lol
J
Forgiveness ADH9er
Submitted by kellyj on
In order to swallow that pill....you have to forgive yourself first. Once you can forgive yourself....you can forgive others too. That's how you get "there" ADH9er. The Lords Prayer....... Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Peace.
J
I think you meant ladies other than me, but I'll add my 2 cents
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
ADH9er,
Dear Tom,
I agree with J. and I will add:
"Accepting forgiveness is sometimes the more difficult side of the coin because you must acknowledge -- at least to yourself -- that you've done something that requires it, but learning how to effectively and graciously accept forgiveness for your transgressions is part of being a whole, healthy person."
I love you a lot. I love you too much to just stand by and watch your pain. I love you too much to take it upon myself. I can't fix it for you, but I can be supportive while you search for a way to fix it.
Love,
Liz
Mind-bending Gratitude to You Ladies ~ u 2 J
Submitted by ADH9er on
who knew ? That a one sentence question, could enlist such passionate and diverse offerings. I most appreciate the overall tone of genuine authenticity and hope of helping. H o w e v e r !!! I am shure most here are familiar with the phrase: ' An ADHD mind = like having a Ferrari engine with bicycle brakes ' I would like to add; for myself, ' and a punch-card processor.' Digesting all of what has been presented will take me... Some time. I can say it has been openly received, and Thanks for caring..
ADH9er
.
Submitted by jennalemone on
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Gaslighting......Do's and Dont's
Submitted by kellyj on
Non and Delphine, I think you are absolutely right......the only really important thing to concern yourself with if someone is using this technique to control you is whether you have the ability to recognize it....and then know what do to about it yourself. I think ultimately....if you stand back and look at how or why it even happens in the first place.....it is a form of coercion....
coersion......the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.
If you compare it to the word manipulation......
Manipulation is defined as skillful control by something or someone.
Manipulation .....is defined as skillful control by something or someone. An example of manipulation is what is being done by a talking car salesman who convinces you to buy a car.
or...it can be......."to move or control (something) with your hands or by using a machine."
As I'm trying to say this....these two things are not just semantically different. I think this was one of those pieces missing that I was trying to say earlier about intention. And possibly what popped into my head about a Shark and a Cat as I was trying to find a way to describe a "feeling".
While yes.....agreeing with the person is ultimately what they want in the first place....where does that leave you in the long run if that is all you do? A "yes" man/woman. What other choice is there if that's all you ever do. This is what you end up "becoming"...not by choice...but by design.
This is passive resistance as a non-defense response for someone doing this.....and yes...it works great....but where does that leave you in the long run? When I talk about strategies....I think you need to look at the what you want yourself....for yourself.....and pick the strategy that is going to get you there? And if your personal goal or intention is just a non-defensive response to put the ball in the other persons court and just let them sit with that so they might think about this for a while and come to the realization that what they're doing is not fair and is possibly shamefully which might make that person think "twice" before doing it again. This would require an active conscience for that to work or be effective.
I think in the case of your roomate Delphine....and the offered possible passive responses....all are making one assumption.....that this persons intentions are not doing this to get something from you or take something from you.....they are doing it as a defense.
Like I said about my wife....as I have NOW come to understand with her.....this is exactly the what happened. She developed this form of manipulation....to achieve her goal. Her intention was to protect herself or prevent something else from happening to her. This is passive form of manipulation and as means to save herself from something....maintain something....or protect herself from something.
If you go back to the word manipulation....it is not a "bad" word. Manipulation....can be good, bad or indifferent....it is a "neutral" word to begin with. Mostly....it describes a skill and that's it. Being skillful at manipulation can be an excellent quality to have. I manipulate things in the work I do....and these are all valuable skills to have and something to aspire to. My intentions in becoming skillful at manipulation in this case...are all honorable for a good purpose or intention.
But what if a persons intention are not honorable. What if they are doing this for a different intention....what do you do then? What if they are doing it to get something from you or take from you in an aggressive way and it's not for protection or as a means of defense? What then?
Antonyms of the word "passive" is......defiant, domineering, energetic, feisty or active, alive, assertive, bossy or impatient, involved, lively, rebellious, spirited or....... violent.
side note: Look here at the possible responses to a passive action like this ( which would be the opposite and equal reaction) to passive Gaslighting....assertive, action, involved, lively, spirited, energetic and feisty.......all of these are active responses. Doing nothing here...is not fighting fire with fire as I am using that phrase. It is matching it with the appropriate action and still being passive.
Conceding, agreeing or capitulating is just giving up if you want that person to stay and not to leave. Playing Chess with a Checkers players is still actively participating as I see this.....and you are still in the game. Which "game"... is what you need to determine?
If you look at the intentions behind each one of those antonyms.....there is one in there that has no good intention what so ever and it's only intention is to hurt, cause damage, destroy....and not just control or manipulate. Violent or violence cannot be viewed from many other perspectives as a means for defense or is not passive in my opinion. It is by it's very nature.....offensive and aggressive....and is used as a means of retaliation, revenge, destruction and to hurt or cause damage......with intention.....by design.
A person using or being skilled at manipulation....and is using it as an offensive weapon rather than a passive protection in defense...takes on a completely different character....or lack of personal character ( or is character flawed or defective)....and this as I am seeing it, now becomes a form of evil manipulation for a more devious intention.
Evil simply meaning by definition....."to destroy....or one who destroys". If you can divorce yourself from seeing the word "evil" and immediately associating all the things one might associate it with......"to destroy...or one who destroys"....has a more objective or neutral connotation if you can only see it from that perspective.
And to determine if the "evil" is intentional or not.....get rights down to what I am saying. If it's passive....and used as a defense for personal protection....this can easily be resolved in your mind to something much more innocuous and harmless no matter how much harm this caused you. Not by intention....not by design to hurt yet it did....done: passively, ignorantly, with no nefarious intention is what Delphine was saying as I could see from the suggestions made.
I would expect the results that Delphine got with her roommate who proceeded to leave once she could not use this means to control her....she moved on. (physically moved out) And in what I found with my wife when I shut her down the same way? First thing she'd sat was "I hate you"...and then she would threaten to "move out" or "leave". Every time! I've heard her threaten to leave or move out so many times....it like hearing a dog barking outside when the mail man comes up the side walk. It's totally meaningless and almost laughable once this happens to you that many times. Not only don't I take her seriously AT ALL!!! ....and don't take offense....I expect her to say this and I tell her simply say...."suit yourself" and walk away if nothing ever happened and don't react at all. That's the second response you should expect to have happen with someone who you call out or stop from Gaslighting you. They got nothing....so don't give them anything..."and please...don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out the door." As a more pointed (not recommended ) response you could add to that. Don't do this....it's you giving them something if you do. ( I think this is an "add on" if I'm not mistaken?) This is Tit for Tat on as your response...and you just bought in and am now joining them in the ring.
Look at two small children getting into an argument with each other ....and one kid does something to offend the other kid.....the other one hits that kid....and now that kid hits back. Tit for tat is exactly what this is. Look at what this is.....symptom, response, response. Scary how the universe seems to repeat itself in some very predictable ways isn't it. Knowing those secrets....and learning how to take advantage of them is innovation by definition. And innovation is just trying something new or taking a new idea...and trying it out and seeing if it works right?
What if Gaslighting is used in this Tit for Tat kind of exchange? What if it's not passive and offensive by design? It is the intention of the first child who took offense.... to hurt, to punish or retaliate isn't it?
And what if it's used by in third response by the second child....as a means for revenge? Revenge isn't passive aggressive. The only purpose revenge serves is to hurt and destroy for the benefit of the person doing it. Revenge is violent no mater what reason revenge is being used. In this case....the "Why" is not important as all.....it's just trying to determine the motive and what the intention was.
It's the same as determine in the difference between 1rst and 2nd degree murder. The person is dead so they don't care at all. It's to determine the correct punishment and the only purpose in making this determination even if it's not "punitive" by nature. (thinking in terms of getting that person away from society to protect them from this person not to "punish" them.)
So it you look at those different characters again.....thinking in terms of....character flaws....how you feel..... and what you do about it.... is what is most important...not the reason why the same as it is with a dead person who was murdered.
But since you're alive still in this....can have to deal with the fall out....and have to figure out how to even feel about this in the first place. I think I can shed some light on this subject because I have had to go through this process and come to my own conclusions....and then....determine what to do. If you live with this person....and they are not leaving or moving out......and you are left to determine the right or wrong thing to feel or do? I tell you my personal opinion and give you some possible scenarios. Simply put.....you need to do something? But what do you do?
In characters here: If you are living with a Shark....a Shark might eat you or bite your arm off for one and only one reason. Your food. It's not personal. Sharks are designed for this reason and they need to do it to stay alive. You aren't going to talk the out of it or prevent them from doing it once they get hungry even if they promised they won't? There is an intention for sure...but that intention is neutral. You can't really get angry at a Shark for eating you can you? It's just the way it is and you have to accept that fact even if you are missing an arm? Best advise here....don't have Sharks as room mates! lol
But a large Cat (Tiger, Leopard or Black Panther) is different than a Shark. Cat's hunt and kill to eat too so what the difference? Cat's get stimulated by killing things. They will kill for enjoyment even if they aren't hungry ie: bored or restless. For them...it's a form of play.
I once asked a care taker at an exhibit that had a Cheetah there and people could come pet it. There was no one around at the moment and I asked her "what's the most dangerous wild Cat you could have as a pet or in captivity?" She said that Cheetahs were the most domesticate-able wild Cat or all the wild Cats and they even used them as guard dogs in Egypt by royalty and were left to roam the palaces free and unencumbered without incident. To answer my question she said "Black Panthers are extremely unreliable, unpredictable and dangerous for one reason. There attack drive is so strong and they are so aggressive....that you can never no if they will or they won't even if you raise them from a kitten in captivity."
I beleive there are people out there who are like Black Panthers. They are rare and far and few between. For a person of this nature....they have learned the skills of how to manipulate others....and they have gotten so good at using those skills, that they begin to like it and they enjoy using them because they are so good at it. And to to make this point.....they use it for no other reason that is gives them the feeling of power to be able to manipulate and control others to their advantage....even if it isn't necessary or to serve any purpose at all...other than they enjoy it on some level. Here....the intention is everything because there is only one. Power and control.
So if that's the case....those techniques that Delphine include won't work and won't do a bit of good. In fact....it will only insight the to do it more since you've just offered them a new challenge to conquer because it's all a game to them.
This would require a different strategy on your part since....they won't leave or move out.....they'll just do it more in over to over power you because it's in their nature to do so. Just like a Black Panther.
And to understand this or even being to tell the difference to know...is almost too frightening and disturbing to comprehend yet....it does exist because I have had this experience. And as far as I can tell....it's the only value in making this determination because if you can't....you will probably never consider this about the person you are in Love with since....that will prevent you from ever seeing it in the first place. That's part of the game.....never letting your victims know what you are doing.
And the only reason I know is.....I react so vehemently and hostilely any time I feel that same feeling again if anyone is Gaslighting me....I was not able to divorce myself from that feeling...and not apply to what I know. In most cases however.....I was wrong but the feeling still is there. I had to learn how to divorce myself from this feeling and apply it a different way to all the other possibilities...and the learn how to tell the difference so I could talk myself out of thinking what I was thinking about that person and despite what my feelings were telling me. This in itself becomes a skill you need to have in order to not have that feeling automatically make you assume the wrong thing because in reality....that feeling I have will only be right in a very few cases. But then I am right....and if this is the case with someone like me from that perspective...the appropriate emotion you should be having is anger because that is totally legitimate. What you do about it....will require you to determine which strategy to apply and what you will do about it if you are right in each case.
So to sum this up simply.....one strategy or answer...does not fit all. Sometimes ....you have to fight fire with fire if you can't leave and are stuck with dealing with this as you are as a child.and that is the only choice you have the only caveat is.....knowing if you are right and to be sure first. Otherwise....you can't know what to do?
And to say....just because someone Gaslights you....does not mean they are a Black Panther in fact....only about 10% or less if you were to make that incorrect assumption. That's all I'm saying here. If that's the case...and you are right.....you need to get the Hell out of there as soon as possible. ASAP or sooner....even better.
J
The way of the peaceful warrior
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
While yes.....agreeing with the person is ultimately what they want in the first place....where does that leave you in the long run if that is all you do? A "yes" man/woman.
That “you’re absolutely right” was my least favorite of Delphine’s author’s list of suggested non-fighting back responses to someone assaulting or manipulating. I tend instead to go either to “I can see your thinking” (which does not say I think that way or agree to do anything, but it’s non oppositional) or if the interaction calls for it, say “this is what I’m going to do”…and then do it.
As I see it, non-confrontational acceptance as a way of approaching conflict is not a question of giving in.
It’s a question of staying on your center and acting from your center. Aikido stuff.
NON...On the Same Page
Submitted by kellyj on
LOL...I didn't read what you said here....before I wrote what I wrote. I'm with you here. I don't need to repeat myself:)
J
Peaceful Warrior Success Story
Submitted by kellyj on
Hey NowOrNever (and Delphine),
I just had some success with this that I thought was interesting. Somewhere in this thread...I said that what my wife will almost refuse to do is to say she wrong (sincerely....she'll get upset and throw that out as another defense which is meaningless as she does it in terms of this Gaslighting thing she does) When she gets this way....everything is Black, White, Right, Wrong. Good, Bad but no in between. And she interprets everything I say by trying to apply ONE or the OTHER to everything I say. So you can't say anything good about yourself....unless you are saying something bad about her at the same time....or....vise versus. This is maddening and impossible to talk with!!
So....I started to do something as a response to her in these moments that is actually working it's magic. Thinking...."if the worst thing for her is to say " I don't know.."....mmmmmmm????
And since she hears the opposites of everything I say??????
When we hit that stale- mate point of no return....and since I've already shut her down to the point that she has no other alternatives anymore. Now I've begun to say "I don't know?" ( even if I do ...just the opposite but it's not Yes or No which neither one of those worked before )
This totally works!! Without confrontation. The more I say "I don't know"....the more she tells me what she knows in a more honest response about how she see's things and this opens it up more to talk about it.
You have to consider....that since I know she's Dismissive.....I can predict her based on that. And since being dismissive means....always seeming to be contrary or argumentative no mater what I say. I'm using that to my advantage and say the opposite of what it true for me in reverse to what she says but without having to agree....disagree....or engage her last comment which was is always informatory.
I don't know....is just I don't know. And it's not Yes or No....good or bad.....right or wrong.....and can't be black or white either.
When my wife gets wound up or gets a hit to her self esteem....she'll split when we have conflict. When that happens....I'm actually hearing two different conversations coming at me at the same time. And they come in a very predictable pattern.....
The person who is my wife and is actually in the room with me I'll call .....M ( for me )...and the "other one" (as I have called this unwelcome little asshole)...I'll call M2 ( for Mini Me ). So here's how it works........
M: I'm going to do this thing that we've talked about tomorrow
M2: Because you'll never do it and it will never get done!
M: I"m wondering now....if this will work or not? mmmm
M2: Since your the Master of everything and you never said anything to me
If you can let go of all the ADHD stuff for a moment...and trust that I'm just not trying to paint a picture of myself without considering all the things that my ADHD feeds into this. This might be useful to you.
I didn't just fabricate this example or make this up. This is pretty close to what just happened (by memory and trying to be as close a possible)
Mini Me....is a total trouble maker and has got a real attitude problem!! lol I realized that 99.9% of the fights we have gotten into...are all with Mini Me not my wife. What's really interesting here is this. When I use to fight with Mini Me and go round and round with (them). I would try and get her to recall the things that were just said. When she would repeat it back to me (with absolutely no remembrance of anything Mini Me said....) this is what I would hear...
"I'm going to do this thing tomorrow and am wondering if this will work or not????" ( note: work or not work .....either/or always)
If you apply what I said about my wife's inability to say "I don't know". What I've come to learn how to interpret this statement/question is actually saying this......
"I was thinking about doing this thing tomorrow but I don't know how to do it....will you do it for me since I don't know how?"
This...is exactly what that meant and I know it without a shadow of a doubt because I just got done doing it for her yesterday. But...as it turned out....she did what she could and I helped her with what she couldn't do.
And here's the deal....(honestly?).....Mini Me is a little Fucker! I will not converse with Mini Me. But since Mini Me and my wife seem to be inseparable during these defensive moments that she cannot make her self vulnerable to me to say I need your help and I don't know how. This little back and forth question and answer type conversation that the two of them are having get so confusing and flips back and forth between the two.....the only way around it is to not engage with Mini Me when ever she rears her nasty little head. I just want to smack Mini Me around a little if I could only rip her away from my wife!! lol (in jest here)
So if I plug "I don't know" in between this conversation that my wife and Mini are having together.....Mini Me's got nothing left to say...and that leaves is my wife who is far more lucid and easy to interpret and understand.
I just wanted to show you how I worked around this problem and it really seems to be working based on everything I've learned and am now applying. I had to pull a lot of recourse together to figure this out as well as some tips by my T....but ultimately....I came to this on my own by just watching, listening and observing....and I finally realized it was Mini Me that was causing all the problems and who I was getting angry with.
If I ignore Mini Me and just listen to every other statement my wife makes...and then just hold on to that even though Mini Me is still jabbering.....I've found that this pattern...seems to be pretty predictable and also.....how my wife is actually seeing Mini Me more and more and responding for Mini Me....instead of Mini Me doing all the talking for her. This is really amazing to observe.
Before....she would just deny anything that Mini Me even said and to the point....I really do believe that she can't hear Mini Me Talking even though Mini is. That's why she can't remember what Mini Me said and I actually believe her now.
I tested this yesterday by asking Mini Me a question and my wife denied and more likely now....didn't remember Mini Me even saying anything which was exactly what use to set me off and make me so angry.
I've found that no matter what Mini Me says......"I don't know" is the perfect response.
And then I actually respond to M (my wife) and everything she said and interpret that the exact same way I just did and we have no problems what so ever and we get along pretty well when ever I shut my ears to Mini Me and just ignore her.
And part of my potty mouth here in those terms I have come to realize....are all in response to Mini Me all along. Mini Me is the one who hates me....calls me an asshole and every derogatory slight or innuendo in the book. My wife on the other hand (M)....doesn't do that at all and is pretty civil most of the time.
M....for the most part....she does a lot of pondering and wondering.... and lot of.." maybe it's this...or ...maybe it's that????" Which is her way of saying...."I don't know" ....without having to say it.
Just like magic......
Now....if I could just find a way to get rid of Mini Me.....we'd both be doing just fine. lol
J
J; Peaceful warrior
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Can't tell you how glad I was to see this post! It gave me assurance that I am doing something that's "good" or "right" or "better" for me.
For the past month I began to respond with "I don't know" to MANY conversations where H is involved and I am finding I like the feeling of "control" it gives ME. I am not power hungry here, just NOT wanting the wind taken out of my sail by another fruitless interaction. Especially if he asks me specific questions. I can tell he is a little "confused"? It's a far better way than "thinking" you are going to have a real convo THIS time and going instead around the same mountain. I'm not blunt with him. I look at him like I am going to answer and say umm I don't know" Fini! Done! Over! Joy! If it requires a yes or no answer......I still say....ummm I don't know.....you decide....and I go on with my day. Never thought our interaction would evolve to this....however.....IT IS THE TRUTH of the situation at present....and that's where I am at.....in the present.....learning a different way to find joy.
I think I am moving beyond needing him to "hear" me....I refuse to be sad about that.....it immobilizes me if I go there and it is getting easier to not.
Really liked the post! Alot of info..thanks J
P.S. I am a ninja and I don't know.....nuthin!!!!! YES!!!
Good For You Zapp
Submitted by kellyj on
This is where....I can't know how common this splitting thing is in association with ADHD but I do know it is commonly related to other disorders that are not on the preferred list of ones you want to deal with!! It really scared me at first. I wasn't so confused myself or it didn't cause me start losing touch as it did in my childhood for brief periods of time....but it was familiar as I said and I had that "ominous" feeling again.
But as I discovered with the some observations from my T...as he said this..."it is one of the more common defense mechanisms and is just one symptom of a number of disorders....but one symptom...doesn't make a disorder. You've got to have the a list of them to make it to that level."
I also researched this and found it's also a common one during episodes of depression and that's what hit the mark with my wife. This is where I have to take some responsibility....not as the cause, but as you know.....the more common symptoms of ADHD can bring that on if you are with someone who has issues with the environment and are really impacted more because of it.
This is as I see it.....is the single most contributing factor to the conflicts we've experienced together. It's why I've been working so hard and focusing on it. Just trying to do my part as best I can you know. It's a bad combination but not one that can't be resolved. I am clear on this now if I wasn't before. She couldn't tell me...so I had to figure this out for the two of us.
My post about attachment theory was really where I found most of my answers. And when I said I had that "Deer in the headlights" feeling....I wasn't kidding! lol Mostly it just made me really on edge and jumpy and brought my anxiety level up to the top. And with that.....all my ADHD symptoms with it. That anxiety was killing me and I definitely knew something was wrong!! I hadn't felt that way for years and I wasn't about to start again.
So yeah.....if this Jeckal and Hyde splitting thing is going on with your H......think in opposites and go to the middle and stay nuetral....you'll be safe and you won't have to argue with Mini Me! lol
J
J and Zapp...
Submitted by Delphine on
Just now saw your posts on using "I don't know" in your communications. Yes, that is a perfect nondefensive approach!
J, I'm just a bit confused by your use of "Me" and "Mini Me." Does that refer to you or your wife? And btw, is your wife also ADHD?
Anyway...well done, guys. Ninjas rule! :)
Delphine
You're surfing now, J!
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I guess only the two in the couple know what phrases exactly to say that are non-confrontational.
Smart you, you figured out exactly how to stump that ODD Mini-Me, to allow the other side of your wife room to do something.
And it made me smile: that other side of your wife did show up! And move into the foreground with you, did something with you, and volunteered to do so.
Good for you. Good for you and her. Good for her. She didn't cling to that Mini Me
Looking forward to your next story.
Some of that non-response to someone else's stinky behavior is pure charity. We all fall off the wagon, we all (except those few saints) have days walking around under the hex of our incompletions.
Looking forward to your next one.
I'm On It!.....NON
Submitted by kellyj on
And thank you, thank you and thank you again....much appreciated:)
What I did know for sure....without having my wife splain it to me was....I know what anxiety feels like and it doesn't feel good! The only thing that was really troubling to me was the splitting thing as I said. The only times in my life when I saw that happened....something bad happened! lol
Probably a lot more troubling to me than for some however....what I don't know for sure, is how that relates to denial? When you add up the lack of remembering her childhood well....and admitting that she has moments of distorted perception and thinking.....those things really might just add up to not being able to problem solve as well. That appears to be her biggest challenge?
Anyway.....for my wife as with me.....the more anxiety there is....the more symptoms emerge. She has really started to relax more and tension are easing except.....when for when she splits. If I sense that common on....I try and give her plenty of room for her sake as well as mine. Mini Me has taken a respite for a while but if something triggers her.....she will come out like she did just the other day for a brief and unwelcome visit but she disappeared just as fast which is also a good sign.
There is something new I discovered from that brief visit that I'll come back to ask about. This is completely new to me and I haven't seen or heard anyone bring this up before. I'm sure it's related to these episodes like I was talking about....but it remains a mystery to me and I'm really curious. Actually more than just curious since it still a poses a problem in communicating that I have yet to find a way around?
Thanks again
J
Almost Forgot :)
Submitted by kellyj on
Those phrases you mentioned in relationship to each couple? I tried everything and every possible response I could think but what I was determined not to do....what take her lead. Finding the something that didn't make it worse was really a great score. Who would have figured? It wasn't the first thing that crossed my mind either?
I just wanted to add......when we navigate those times even if my wife gets ramped up.....what " I don't know" does...is keep everything moving forward. As long I keep my cool and don't go with her....we can get past most moments now without a problem. She's finding.....since now she's listening....that many of the things she believed she was seeing in me were completely and totally wrong....not even close in fact. This was a great relief to her mostly since she was reacting to something that wasn't happening much of the time. That's another big change that's had a positive impact as well.
J
Not about that
Submitted by Delphine on
J...saying "you're absolutely right" is absolutely NOT about agreeing with them!
Not "giving in" but giving UP (letting go of) ANY need to engage, and thus defusing the situation. It worked like a charm when I used it on my previous roommate that I shared about. As I said, the expression on her face was priceless!
NowOrNever also thought that "Really?" was a request for explanation. No! Again...stepping back from engaging. Noncommital, nonconfrontational. It literally disarms the gaslighting or emotional blackmailing.
Aikido stuff, indeed. I've posted this here before, seems apropos again. Goes beyond non-defensive communication.
http://spiritualpsychology.com/articleaikido.html
Glad communications with you and your wife are improving!
Delphine
Aikido
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Here's the aikido real deal, in this Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YziUvBqX-zI
Aikido is a martial art, a very specific way of combat if one is targeted by intent to harm. The sensei being attacked is meeting force with counterforce, although as you can see, he's not striking back.
There are a lot of approaches to contributing to peace.
That there are, and are not reducible to each other, is, I think a blessing, because it means that we have multiple possible ways to take action for peace.
Perhaps people by the orientation of their personality and stage in life, find the peaceful way that fits them and works for them. That's my guess.
.
going with the flow
Submitted by Delphine on
From an Aikido practitioner who teaches conflict resolution using its principles:
http://www.judyringer.com/perch/resources/hidden-gifts-1.pdf
The Way of Harmony: Life Applications
In life, the Aikido metaphor is realized when you transform challenges into opportunities and adapt to new circumstances with ease, moving with life’s flow, instead of struggling against it. You are practicing Aikido whenever you listen with curiosity to an opposing view or search for mutual understanding, respect, and purpose. Aikido happens any time you stop, take a breath, and choose a more felicitous state of being. No matter how you approach it, whether physically or conceptually, Aikido offers a unique blend of power and grace, inviting you to find the hidden gifts in every difficult moment.
Mostly rave reviews of her book:
http://www.amazon.com/Unlikely-Teachers-Finding-Hidden-Conflict-ebook/pr...
Very nice match with what you
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Very nice match with what you see in the video.
Glad you continue to be interested in aikido, Delphine.
In your opinion...
Submitted by Delphine on
...do you think this approach would be helpful in relations with ADHD?
Whoops, Delphine,
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Whoops, Delphine,
I see from J's post that it's possible that you didn't intend to request my opinion, but were requesting it of people with ADHD.
All best. Again, glad of your interest in aikido.
Now
My interest is solely...
Submitted by Delphine on
...in improving communications with everyone in my life, especially my ADHD son (don't have any contact with his dad to speak of, these days, though I wish him well).
I do think this approach is "across the board" applicable to any and all people and conflicts. As such, I don't see any reason why it can't be used in relations with ADHD. And I don't think we need to learn the martial art in order to do so. I found another book that looks good:
http://www.amazon.com/Aikido-Everyday-Life-Giving-Your/dp/1556431511/ref...
I'm a little confused by your response because on the one hand you say using the Aikido approach to conflict resolution would be "messing with him" and then you go on to say yes, it could be helpful "only in the psychic emotional matters that all humans work with." Well, that's what I'm talking about. What else could we possibly mean here?
Also confused because I thought we were on the same page with this previously in the discussion of nondefensive communication, using the examples from Susan Forward on emotional blackmail. You seemed fully in agreement about this. Doesn't it, in the end, come down to Jesus' dictum to "resist not"? I know that the Christian beliefs of many here have been integral to coping with their ADHD partners. Jesus was preaching the Aikido approach though he of course didn't use that term.
I'm not interested in doing the martial art. Yoga is enough for me. I'm the headstand queen ;)
Qi Life Force- Vital Energy
Submitted by kellyj on
I think what NowOrNever might be talking about in Aikedo (as the metaphor)....and the same thing I'm referring too....is Qi. Qi is the foundation of martial arts as I understand it. It is the mind controlling and harnessing Qi as defined as:
Qi is the fundamental entity that makes up the Universe....everything in the Universe resulted in changes and movement of Qi...the vital energy or life force. To harness and master Qi...gives you the power to functionally promote, warm, defend, retain or consolidate and transform...throughout your mind and body...using the four movements up , down, outward, inward.
As a defense for example...it resists the entry evils into the body. Evils are classified as Wind, Summer Heat, Dampness, Dryness, Cold and Fire. In this reference...it's the equivalents of the bodies immune system in Western terminology. In the ancient belief of Qi ...you have control of this by unifying the mind and body and this vital life force energy within the power of Qi to take the place of medicine to heal.
(mind, body and spirit=Qi )
The defend function of Qi....Qi defends against attack...as stated.
In the promoting function...Qi provides the vital necessary energy for growth, development and to perform physiological functions of the body which included strengthening deficiencies and weakness's within the body.
side note: this might be why it suggests using martial arts for ADHD since "executive function" is a "function" in physiologic form?
And within the retention or consolidation of Qi...it is the harnessing of energy and concentrating it into a laser focus and concentration form that will transform or vaporize them to their essence.
In Tai Chi.....these are the four movements of Qi used as a defense against an opponent...
Peng - Ward Off: Mastering this energy gives you an expansive internal power that is explosive.
Lu - Roll Back: Mastering this energy allows you to absorb your opponent's energy. It is a yielding power that sucks in your opponent. The Tai Chi Classics say that your opponent 'falls into emptiness'.
Ji- Press Forward: Mastering this energy gives you a straight ahead forward power. It is a focused power like a laser.
An- Push Downward: Mastering this energy allows you to root your opponent right into the ground and is a downward-moving power.
So...the way I was taught this....martial arts begins with learning how to harness Qi which is this power within the Universe that focuses in your core and extends outward to infinity. It this infinite power concentrated into laser focus into one of the four directions of movement.
Does that ring any bells? It certainly does for me. As I see it...I can hyper- focus or laser focus and these two things are distinctly different....and no one taught me how..... it's just there and always has been. I was born with this ability. Sixth sense? It's really Freaky that's all I can tell you but it only comes in flashes and I have not learned how to harness it or control it?
In another story I learned which illustrate harnessing and controlling the power of Qi.....
An old peasant man and a Samurai approached each other of a bridge with only room for one to pass. The Samuai was given the power of life and death by the Devine Emporer, and it would be beneath him to yield to any man below him and he would normally dispatch this man immediately by his given right to do so. It was within his right to kill the man or not so not... to have him yield the right of way. When the two came within killing range of each other.... the Samurai put his hand on his sword preparing to execute his right over the man....but the old man without ever looking upward and gazing to the ground fell to his knees and removed his Tea kit from his satchel and proceeded to prepare Tea at the feet of the Samurai. But as the old man did this procedure in front of him....the Samurai could sense the old mans incredible power within him (his Qi). His Qi was so strong within him....the Samurai was obliged to yield to the old man as long as he did not break from the power within his Qi..... but waited impatiently for his chance to dispatch the old man with his sword. The old man completed making his Tea and proceeded to silently drink his Tea and then packed his kit and returned it to his satchel. He then rose to his feet but never looking upward or into the eyes of the Samuarai even once in there entire encounter. The old mans gaze was always downward towards the ground the entire time. And the Samurai was so impressed with his power and his ability to maintain it without breaking from it during the Tea making process in the face of his own Qi and over his overpowering presence....he relinquished his right of death that he had and yielded the right of way to the old peasant man and allowed him to pass.
In the essence of this story....is what I think NowOrNever is referring to Delphine? I could be wrong but this is how I am interpreting it in relationship to what you are saying as well?
This is what I remembered from my Karate teacher Delphine. I had to look up the other parts to fill in the specifics details again but in essence....learning to harness and use your Qi is the foundation of all marital arts. I think that last story is a representation of this in using it for non-offensive action again an opponent to neutralize (vaporize and ground them).
It's all about unifying the mind, body and the spirit (Qi...life force vital energy) and using it in any one of those martial art forms in a way to get there....and finding and using your Qi is the common denominator within all of them no matter which one you pick? I think? I might be wrong by saying all of them but I'm pretty sure this is the foundation and philosophy put into action.
I also just read this in terms of what you said about intuition.....
"Human Qi comes from two sources:The first source is inherited by our parents at conception or innate vital substance. The second source is derived from the essential substance of nature; air, food, water."
I may be completely wrong here...but as I see intuition as somewhat learned or absorbed from the environment after you are born.....instinct is pre-programmed into at the time of conception. Instinct as I see it....is passed on into our genetic coding not something you learn or comes after you are born. Instinct is there from the second you take your first breath is there already like I was trying to say.
And the most interesting thing about Qi if you didn't pick up on it is.....it's origin in the body is at your core (in your gut).
As I am trying to figure out these moments that I was describing....and how this applies to Qi and martial arts lines up perfectly with what I beleive happens to me?
Intuition is mostly a gut feeling.
Instinct is there in your mind already and is knowing that you are born with.
And Qi is the combination of these two sources. What I'm saying happens with me...is a flash of innate vital substance that was passed on genetically from my parents. It's the only way I have been able to describe it but it is literally....all in my head as they say...and is not coming from my gut in that split second white flash in my head.
Freaky weird I'm telling you. You don't even have time to "think anything" or use your intuition it happens so fast. Like a snap shot image with a flash bulb and then you know...Instantaneous and spontaneous and not time to think or feel anything and it's not a feeling from my gut which is how I interpret as being a part of intuition. It's too fast for that???? I don't know how else to describe it but as a white light snap shot flash picture that creates an image in the front of my mind that I can see instantly and then know simultaneously. It's very rare and it only happens with danger or when my life is threatened and there is intense fear involved and no other time.
It's why I don't think that fits exactly into the definition of intuition but I could be wrong .......but Qi and the philosophical approach to martial arts is the only way I have been able to describe it and it does fit into what I just said. What do you think?
Like I said....it's already there and was there as long as I can remember anything but only comes out or happens when there is an immediate imminent threat to my life. In a white flash image.
Maybe this is the sixth sense or part of it that you are talking about? I think so. I've read where some people with ADHD supposedly have this sense? I'm thinking this is what they are talking about and why I'm so interested? I've been trying to figure this out my entire life and have yet to come up with a better explanation?
All I can say is..."I don't think I know......I know...before I think?" I'm sure of it! lol
J
May the Force Be With You...the Power of Qi
Submitted by kellyj on
I wanted to add something to this discussion that is part of my personal spiritual belief system. The power of positive thinking is equivalent to Qi as I see it. It's my life force vital energy and negativity is the evil that drains my power so to speak. Within the 4 movements of Qi...comes the strategies for defense from evil in these terms.
If you think about a victim who is powerless...or a person who is powerless has lost their connection with their Qi and in those terms...is negative.
My biggest complaint about my wife is her negative attitude and her lack of personal power which drains me and causes to expend my own personal energy towards her when she should be finding her own power and using it not to be so helpless. When she tries to control me....she trying to get me to do some positive action for her instead of doing it for herself and being self reliant and self sufficient in this way.
side note: remember just yesterday morning when I said..."I don't know about any mess....but if you want the TV turned off...would you mind doing that yourself so I don't have to get up and do it?" Perfect example. She would have let me get up from what I was doing to go turn the TV off by the power of her suggestion and I would have if I had not discovered this is what she was doing with me. In direct relationship to non-offensive action.....I didn't move....she did and used my non-offensive approach to retain my position and my power using my Qi to do this.
She see's her power...as getting others to do things for her. I see my power....is neutralizing her and vaporizing her ability to control me through my Qi.
I'm on to her now in this way ....and I now know how to stop her in all positive and non-offensive ways by applying this directly. The goal is for me not to move, retain my Qi and Vital Life Force energy ( or positive energy)....by transforming her negative energy and neutralizing it through my mind and thinking.
She is by defition....seeing the glass as being half full, powerless, negative and a pessimist by nature which is due to her lack of Qi.
I say yes....she says no. I say go...and ...she says stop. I say you can fix it....and she says...you can't. I say it's not broken....and she says it is. I say do it yourself....and she says....I can't. My wife is using the forces of negative thinking.... instead of the forces of positive thinking.
This is extremely consistent not only in my observation....but the drain of my positive energy and a drain to my Qi. As I said once in the moment.."I'm not for you!!!". Which might be seen as...."my Qi is not for you!!! Get your own damn Qi!!!! "lol
And as I see praying...is a passive way of asking for Qi as in a third party that you need permission and allowance from...and hoping you'll get it?
Instead of an actively learning how to harness Qi and not needing to ask or wait for an intermediary to decide. As in God or Jesus. As I see it.
And as I see it....Qi is there and available at will and you do not need to ask for it. It's yours if you want it....and the way to get it is through the power of Qi. This is universaly available to anyone and you do not need to subscribe to any particular religious belief to take advantage of it. In particular....you don't not have to pick ONE religion in order to receive it. It is the power of the Force within the Universe (Qi Vital Life Force) as it applies directly to martial arts and the philosophy behind it.
Powerlessness...is a lack of Qi and is a negative force. As described in Qi....resistance of evil forces from entering your body.
As I see this....I can apply it to every negative interaction that I have had with my wife. And also as I see it....the more Qi I have and retaining, concentrating, vaporizing and transforming her negative evil forces within the methods described in marital arts...the more power I will have to resist her negative energy in direct opposition to neutralize her. And the more I learned of these methods....the better off I will be personally and have more power against her evil trying to enter my body.....by using any one of the 4 movements as needed in the moment that will apply.
So from that perspective....praying.....is wishing on a hope and a prayer. Marital Arts is actively participating in neutralizing evil and negative energy drains to my body, mind and spirit.
I just wanted to throw that in because this is the part that I absorbed in the Karate I learned and part of my personal blief system that seems to consistently hold true any time I apply it.
Also as I see it....this is what Jesus as our teacher or master....was trying to teach us in the things he said just interpreted a little differently. It's also why I reject so much that has been attempted to misinterpret the teaching of Jesus by many who in my opinion...are misinterpreting the lessons. If it's negative at all....then it can't be what Jesus said and is a misinterpretation and a false belief....IMHO.
J
One More Point of Interest About Sixth Sense
Submitted by kellyj on
In those flash moments I'm trying to describe? My body reacts first....ahead of my mind or any thought process. It is pure impulse action where my body does the exact right thing without a thought in my mind. If this doesn't sound like instinct or impulsivity....I don't know what else is? lol
And that fits exactly with the description of ADHD. As I see this....it's a very positive thing:) (in those times at least)
Instinct as defined....an innate, typically fixed pattern of behavior in animals in response to certain stimuli.
When I looked up the word....it described exactly what it feels like. I guess instinct is the sixth sense that you are born with?
J...answering some points
Submitted by Delphine on
J...answering some points from your recent posts...
Re intuition and instinct. They most often go together, I feel, but you are right, they aren't exactly the same.
I found an article that goes into this. Excerpt:
https://medium.com/@nametagscott/the-difference-between-instinct-and-int...
The Difference Between Instinct and Intuition
And how to sense, refine & express both
We use the words instinct and intuition interchangeably.
And while they do exist on the same spectrum, there’s still a crucial difference between the two ideas.
Instinct comes from the word instinctus, or, “impulse,” meaning it’s a biological tendency. It’s the transient reaction that happens in our bodies, apropos of right now.
Intuition comes from the word intuitio, or, “consideration,” meaning it’s an accumulated belief. It’s the ongoing collection of experiences, apropos of everything up until now.
Here’s an example to illustrate the difference.
I’ve worn a nametag every day for the past fourteen years. Just for fun. It’s my constant social experiment and unique way of interacting with the world. And it’s never failed to add a layer of social interestingness to my daily life.
But it’s also shaped me, both physiologically and psychologically, both instinctively and intuitively.
Remember the kid from The Sixth Sense who saw dead people?
Well, I see friendly people. And they’re everywhere. And I always know exactly when I’m about to meet another one. That’s the spooky thing. Wearing a nametag has become my sixth sense.
Every day, a millisecond before somebody responds to my nametag, I can literally feel it in my body. Whether it’s a flight attendant greeting me as I board, a waitress using my name at the table or a yoga instructor calling me out during class, I can biologically predict when a “nametag moment” is about to happen.
It’s the strangest thing.
Then again, it helps me anticipate interactions. Which allows me respond to people’s comments quickly. Which allows me to be a more engaging communicator.
That’s instinct.
On the other end of the spectrum, there’s intuition.
With my nametag, I’ve been running the same social experiment, tens of thousands of times, for well over a decade. And at this point, I can learn everything I need to know about somebody, solely based on the way they respond to my nametag.
It’s my instant inkblot test. A small, repeatable, portable filter that helps me make sense of the people I meet.
If someone points to my nametag asks me if I have a memory problem, I suspect they’re playful. If someone yells hello out of the window of a passing car, I suspect they’re extroverted. If someone rolls their eyes and looks at me like I’m an alien, I suspect they’re closed minded. And if someone walks up to me and rips my nametag off in the middle of a crowded room, I suspect they’re insecure. Or drunk. Or both.
The thing is, I’m usually right. My accumulation of experiences from the past fourteen years makes for an insanely accurate filter.
That’s intuition.
Same spectrum as instinct, but the manifestation is different. It’s a psychological construct, not physiological one.
Yes, I believe all the martial arts, including yoga which is not strictly speaking a martial art, are about unifying body, mind and spirit, and raising Qi. We all need to do this of course, but I feel would be especially beneficial to ADHD. All the suggestions at that page I linked to would be helpful, I am sure. Still perusing, myself.
Great story about the Samurai and the old tea-maker! I must say you know a lot of great stories. I appreciate them all :)
Re what you say about your relationship with your wife. I think, instead of seeing her and her way of being as something you have to "fight" and neutralize...acceptance is what is called for. She is in some way a reflection of you...and in the highest understanding, she IS you. Now, think sync...I came upon this today from a martial artist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6zEUel9ebQ
“I wanted to say that even when fighting, we are one.
A match needs an adversary. That adversary allows me to express myself — that’s why I held the WE ARE ALL ONE banner. At first I thought only of myself. Not my training partner, for example.”
—> Please explain.
“I believe “all is one” to be true. The world’s conflicts and trouble… result from our being separated. If everyone in the world is seen as ourselves, then all we see… will be one with us, and not like someone else. In that way all people can be thought of as ourselves, and treated with kindness, given a chance, and helped out. That’s what I think would happen.”
This is not saying that you always need to accede to her requests. You ought to respond to her in whatever way feels right to you, of course. It's more about a change in perception. Seeing her as perfect as she is, not in need of "fixing" per se. At some point, maybe even in another lifetime, you were where she is now. In accepting her, you are accepting that part of yourself, rather than fighting against it. Yet again...acceptance is the doorway and the key.
I'd also like to say something about prayer. You wrote:
And as I see praying...is a passive way of asking for Qi as in a third party that you need permission and allowance from...and hoping you'll get it?
Instead of an actively learning how to harness Qi and not needing to ask or wait for an intermediary to decide. As in God or Jesus. As I see it.
Rather than being about pleading with an outer, omnipotent God and/or Jesus...it too is about a change in consciousness, in perception. It is lifting ourselves out of the miasma of doubt and insecurity, to our true God-nature, including a transformed Qi. Relevant to this forum...I first got into understanding all of this when I was in the relationship with my son's father, whose ADHD at that time was undiagnosed. That relationship was so painful and bewildering (for us both, and our little boy) that my spirit cried out for help...and I received it, through my spiritual explorations.
The teachings of Jesus were definitely part of this, but not the only source.
Here's an example from the Psalms in the Bible:
"The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life, of whom shall I be afraid?"
On the surface, this may seem as though we see our light and salvation as coming from outside of us. But if we understand "Lord" as being our inner light and salvation, our inner God-self, this changes the picture, don't you think? I believe this is what Jesus was trying to get across to us, and which as you say, has been much misunderstood by the churches. As shown by such quotes as:
"The kingdom of Heaven is within you."
"I have said that you are all Gods, and sons and daughters of the most High."
"Whatsoever things you pray and ask for, believe you have them and you shall receive."
Here's to our inner God/Jesus/Martial Artist!
Delphine
Trust and Beleiving.....Delphine (edit addition )
Submitted by kellyj on
I can't tell you how appropriate what you just said to me was. As of this morning....I came face to face with the problem my wife and I have been butting up against in our communicating.... in a very successful (but tenuous) situation we managed to make it all the way through without a fight. We did debated this time, not argued....or shall I say....my wife argued and I tried my best from entering the ring with her again....and I managed to do that and still got to the point of being heard (enough)...to stimulate a debate instead for some brief moments.... for her to actually give me the honest answer I've been searching for in over two years of fighting and arguing over this very thing.
This is the specific thing that the two of us have been fighting about. Specific to us....but no limited to us specifically by no means but......when I say specific to us means...impasse not just problematic. I see that as the difference even though I'm sure most who come here might even say the same thing. And it's not like I haven't been saying this to my wife now for over 2 years repeatedly....yet she has never said what was at the core or source before which had everything to do with how I got her to actually say it.
How I did that is less important for the moment as I am trying to share the bottom line at this very time. How I got there is extremely important and that has a lot to do with many of the things we've been discussing and possibly? How to get there with your son as well? I might have something of value here so bear with me.
First the bottom line and relating it to the things that you just said.
"Rather than being about pleading with an outer, omnipotent God and/or Jesus...it too is about a change in consciousness, in perception."
Right, we both agree here. But how do you get someone to see your point of view (or perception)? What options do you have?
-Mansplaining is one option. That's the conceptual objective approach. This is you....stepping back and looking at the situation from the outside in as the observer and speaking as the spectator even if you are talking about your own interaction with another person. It's more fact based as you see it and trying to keep your opinion and personal feelings completely out it and stepping into the Grand Stand of life with everyone else and just looking on and reporting back what you see. Even about yourself as if you were watching yourself from that same perspective. This only works....if the other person is doing the same thing with you at the same time. It would be the equivalent of two people sitting in a movie theater together....and watching a movie of themselves interacting....and then talking about what each one see's from that perspective. That's what Mansplaining is.....completely objectifying and removing all personal feelings an opinions and leaving that completely out of the picture. You are effectively....the third party removed even for yourself as you Mansplaing about the two of you together at the same time while still sitting in the movie theater and discussing what you see....or the two you on the screen interacting together. As third party spectators of yourself and the two of you.
The problem about Mansplaining is....is always about the past. How can it be not...if you are watching what already happened on the screen....now in the present time. There you go. It has a temporal shift....live and in person.
If I explained that well and didn't miss anything....that is ONE possible perspective.......and possibly, a very common one for many men to have...or they wouldn't call it Mansplaining right? lol
What I just described....was a point of view seeing things this way: two people sitting in a movie theater together and watching themselves from this ONE..point of view. (3rd party removed) You are both watching and listening to each other recorded LIVE at the time....but it's now (LIVE and in person) being played back to yourselves again later..... and you are both taking about yourselves in the third person and discussing this together in the future as you watch yourselves in the past.
But the only way that will work....is to be able to see yourself accurately in the past and describe what you remember well. For a person in Denial.....all you're going to get...is what they think they look like....not what they look like as if it was filmed and recorded exactly.
You can see where all the problems exist here?
Another point of view....would be standing opposing the other person as everyone does when you are live and in person. You're sitting across the table from the person as you talk to them....and this is LIVE....right now.....in person...and you are looking them from this ONE point of view. And they are looking at you from this ONE point of view they have of you as they sit there in front of you. And everything you are telling them of what you see of them...is exactly what you see and hear? Right. How can it be anything but that if you think about it?
But here's where all the problems come into play.....LIVE and in person.
If you what the person in front of you is saying about themselves to you....and somehow it isn't adding up to what you understand? What are the possible options you would do with that information?
1) You take them at face value whether it makes sense or not....an just accept that you don't understand but you Trust and believe them anyway.
2) You don't believe them and think they're lying.
3) You disagree with them since you have a different opinion about this yourself
4) You have a feeling they could be wrong.....but you Trust your intuition enough ...which pushes you to believe them anyway and go with it exactly as stated since your on the fence and need your intuition to tell you that so you make a decision....either way....either / or. This still leaves you a little unsure, confused, or conflicted still....but you trust yourself and your intuition to believe yourself in this case which resolves all your concerns and you won't worry about it anymore from that moment on.
4) You have a feeling they could be wrong.....but you do not Trust your intuition at all ...which leaves you conflicted, confused, torn, concerned and worried since those feeling you have are not resolved.
5) Either / Or and you don't care.
6) You have a feeling they could be wrong.....but you don't Trust them and immediately throw everything they just said right out the window and dismiss everything they say and immediately believe exactly what you think and feel without a second thought about them by using your best judgment as your guide. ( which is being Self Righteous )
7) You don't believe anything they say...and believe you are right and they are wrong.( Which is also being Self Righteous )
OR......
side note Delphine. I've been connecting everything you said with my discovery with my wife here with you...and putting what you said and my thought this and trying to show the connection....
I'm going to switch up and preach to the Choir now...and throw some of my own personal feeling and two bits in here that are not directed at you or anyone else here. More...... speaking to anyone and everyone as how I see this in the entire picture........ which is of course....including myself in as much as anyone..... without having to say this but just once:)
or.............
8) You're left with ambivalent feelings about that person since you don't really Trust or believe them...because you don't really Trust or believe yourself and your intuition either... so now YOU SCREWED! lol That is...you're the one who's screwed...and that's not the other persons fault.
Remember....they didn't do anything yet here....they just said something in that moment you didn't understand or made sense to you? You did this to yourself and betrayed yourself 100% every time you don't have Trust and Faith in yourself...and who you are.....and you know it, without a shadow of a doubt. You do this to you! No one did this to you! And there's no Turd in your pocket either.
Every time you can't trust yourself and your own intuition....you're left with this huge mess to deal with.....all those ambivalent feelings about the other person which causes you to worry and feel concerns: a) about them or/either: c) for yourself d) or both. e) All the above
answer: e
And that just leaves you feeling frustrated right? That's how I feel at least when this happens.
And after too long ....your own inability to process this for yourself and resolve you own unresolved feelings....starts getting confused with that frustration you have about your own mixed feelings this creates inside you....which starts to feel irritating to you.....which then leads to feelings of anger TOWARDS that person...for causing YOU to feel this way about Them.
So then...YOU blame THEM for the way YOU feel about THEM..... which has nothing to do with them at all? They haven't done anything yet...and nothing in the past you can use as your excuse since. If you could have done this back then when you should have done it for yourself in exactly the way I'm saying....you wouldn't feel this way now. You'll have to trust me on that if you can't see this yourself. How can you trust me? I do this all the time...everyday....countless times a week. All day....every day.....24/7. So I never get like this.
But I use to....just not anymore. That's how I know at least?
Anyway....when you don't do this....You just did this to yourself...all by yourself....from your own inability and dysfunction. THEY (the person across the table from you)....did nothing.
Who's this WE.....you got a Turd in your pocket?
All that person did was tell you something...that you don't understand or that you don't agree with...or it doesn't sound right to you? And your confused and frustrated. That's literally all that just happened. And if that's the case. What are YOU going to do about it?
And then...... this is what you(we) do.
You get angry and irritated with them and start to argue with them about what they said to you about themselves? Call them names. Call them a liar. Yell at them. Accuse them of all manner of things that they didn't do because your are so sure that you know what they are doing...and you think you are absolutely right about how you feel about them and it's in your right in doing so? And feeling this way? But you don't know how you are feeling because you don't know. Because if you were using your well developed intuition and know who you are and trust yourself and your intuition....you wouldn't be in this place to begin with.
And if that person calls you out and tells you you are doing this..........you get upset with them. Argue with them and deny this is what you are doing. The problem is.....they can see you do it. You are transparent to them. The problem is....you can't see yourself and that's the only problem in the room at the time.
HOW FUCKING RIDICULOUS IS THAT.?????????????????????????????? lol It really is if you stop and look at that?
Sit with what I just said....and see if there are any holes it?
As stated, if you're on the fence and need a tie-breaker in your mind.... you have to have your own well developed fully functioning intuition first..... before you can be considerate of another person.
And if you don't have that in the first place?.... or don't trust it? Or don't even realize you don't have one. You CAN'T resolve that tie-breaker in your mind ....or ever make a definitive conscious decision....either way....either / or. Ever? Without it? You can't get there from here.
And what you are left with when that happens....is Black and White thinking because everything is always left as....either / or. And it always left up in the air and unresolved in your mind.
If you don't not have the ability to figure this out for yourself and come to a conclusion in some way....you will always be left with unresolved feelings where ever you go. This will tend to make a person.....
-over sensitive to things people say about you- and get defensive and have your feelings hurt all the time. Easily!
-feeling insecure all the time and unsure of what to do?
-feeling angry at people all the time for doing this to you ( going back to...how fucking ridiculous is that?)
-short .... or short tempered
-Not very warm and friendly about people because they are always stepping on your toes (as you see it...going back to my last comment)
-Prickly like a Porcupine
-Defensive
-Distrusting and suspicious
-Easily irritated at things and people..... for the reason stated above
-Anxious and fearful
-Afraid to make a decision
-Afraid of doing something or being wrong
-Afraid that something bad will happen if you make a definitive decision that you can stand on and feel good about
-Needing other people to lean on to makes decisions for you and never feeling very sure about those decisions because they're not yours to begin with
-Feeling resentful that other people always seem to be making decisions for you since you are always so indecisive about everything and always leaning on them to do this for you
-Feeling Needy and insecure in general
-Afraid of the other person
-Afraid to make any hard decision in general
-And in general....just being afraid of them and not feeling very loving or friendly and seeing them as someone to be afraid of and in general...not trusting them.
-Feeling guilty and all kinds of shame over this inability you have
-And as a persistent general state of mind.....not feeling very good about yourself all the time and even hating yourself ( or even wanting to kill yourself possibly?) And then hating your life and everyone in it including yourself when that happens.
and..........
-And not being very considerate of other people...looking at it from the general state of mind from the other person's perspective sitting across the table from you.
That's the bottom line. And we do this to ourselves. No one ever did this too you. Ever.
But there are reason you got to be this way....and that happened a very very long time ago. Before you can probably even begin to remember.
Trust and believing in yourself....is the ONLY way to make this all go away. When you do that....you will also trust your intuition which is the piece of this puzzle that is missing and why we do this. And only then....are you going to be able to trust the person sitting across the table from you even if you are left with your own feelings to resolve for ...and by yourself.
No one..... will ever have that ability to do this for you. That is an impossibility and will never be able to happen ever.
And no one.....ever did this to you. You did this to yourself .....and that's the reason why I believe in my heart of hearts....right down to the core...that I am in right in saying this.
This is what I believe....and I believe I'm right.
How to work around this with my wife....is still left for me to figure out....but I'm getting there....I'm still trying to find the right approach or point of view that will work for her since...as of this morning...she admitted to me in her own way, that she believes NO ONE can Mans-splain including her self. Because she literally can't do it and she said so straight up. As in no ability at all? At least that's what she said....and I'm tending to believe her based on everything I said here once I realized she really have NO ability to do that and thinks because of that....no one can?
Yet she can watch a movie in a movie theater...and talk about the people in it in an objective conceptual way? Just not herself.
That is the definition of denial right there I truly believe. It is my definition that is...but I do believe it's true just from watching and observing her the same way I do with myself. Same ability....just doing it with her. Like watching myself on a movie screen and giving myself..my own critique.
That is....the inability to look at yourself in the mirror and watch yourself and know what you are doing (with some degree of accuracy) and then tell someone else what you see while they are sitting across the table with you at the same time...Live and in person.
Trust and faith in yourself is the only thing missing here as far as I can see it? And then believing yourself once you do.
This is what I am now seeing as the real invisible wall....between my wife and I. And I can't help but feel a little helpless to do anything about it other than trying to get her to believe in her self. That's a HUGE job .....and it's not necessarily mine or even my responsibility even though I'm sure I will be accused of that as I have been constantly since we've been together.
That's the one things I can predict and count of for sure since.....some how...it's my fault for doing this to her and making her feel the way she does. What I do know with a certain amount of confidence.....what ever I am doing....it's not what she does and it's not this. She was like this long before we ever met.......
Even though...she will deny that too....and then accuse me of being the one who did.....as she does. This is why I think?
And the one thing I do know without questioning myself for a second.... I was like this in my past...but just not anymore.
And because of this.... I can NOW...at the present time see the difference.....and I know that difference and she doesn't. Because she can't see what she doesn't have. That's like trying to prove a negative to someone....or....trying to prove you have an ability to see things that are invisible....but yet....you KNOW they're there. In the physical world that you can actually see with your eyes.....intuition, insight, emotions and feelings are invisible. If you can't look inside yourself to the virtual reality that is there....and know the difference between that....and the physical world of reality that everyone shares and can see with your eyes......then you are functionally.....flying blind.
I don't know about you....but If I woke up in the morning...and found myself sitting in an airplane flying into the black of night....and you don't know how to fly a plane.....I myself.....would be terrified and afraid of crashing into something....with a feeling of panic and foreboding.....and would immediately start grabbing levers and pulling knobs and stomping on the pedals on the floor...in a frantic attempt at trying to get that plane under control knowing full well....if I couldn't find a way to fly that plane and get it under control......eventually....you're going to burn in and crash in a blazing ball of fire! lol
If you can't fly your own plane....and don't know how to do it....you'll always have to trust someone else to do that for you if you ever want to go anywhere by yourself.
And in respect to that metaphor.....this is exactly what most people do....unless you know how to fly a plane by yourself. If you can do that....you will the confidence to go anywhere by yourself....and get yourself there safely and not have to trust anyone. Either way....you have to have trust in one or the other.....but you can't blame the pilot if the plane get hit by lighting? That's not the pilots fault and he has no control or power to control the weather any more than you do? In that scenario...you have to trust that the pilot and ground crew...that they've got their act together and will get you to your destination safely.
My own dysfunction in the past.....was not being able to trust other people due to what happened to me when I was growing up. I knew...the only way I was going to get anywhere....was to learn to do it for myself and learn to fly my own plane. And to do that....I had to have faith and trust in myself and use that intuition I know I have and have known since I was a very little boy. I lived in fear all the time....and I knew the only person I could trust....was myself. And I proved it to myself enough....to begin to believe and trust my intuition and my instincts to tell me what to do.
When I think back and remember those times....it was the only thing I could trust because that's all I had to work with.
I see myself on that movie screen of my past right now as I am writing these things in the present time at this moment..... and all the problems that I've had in my life....and in arriving at the situation I see with my wife.....I'm coming at this from a different and possibly opposite direction in my approach out of my own dysfunctional way of seeing things or only the one point of view I had in the past and this gives me some idea of what I need to do now and this is really helpful so I can pin point the problem and even see it to begin with?
The one thing I've never had a problem doing my entire life....was believing and trusting in my intuition and my instinctual abilities....because I had to...in order to keep myself safe from harm and so I didn't have to live in fear all the time. This gave me the confidence to learn to fly my plane by myself...and not need anyone else to fly it for me....or for that matter....do anything I needed to do by.....by learning how to do it the same way.
That is... teaching myself how to do things on my own....without anyone having to show me how. Speaking strictly for myself....it was pretty obvious, that if I didn't do that for myself, no one else was ever going to do it for me. That much, I knew for sure at a very young age.
And I also see all the down sides to this too....and the problems in my own thinking that were created by my own past and all the challenges that were presented to me.....which were also not by my choosing at all. It's just how it worked out....but there are a lot of positive things that came from that and I'm counting my blessings now and thankful for seeing all the opportunities that came from that experience.
It's a work in progress....but I'll get there if I can follow my own advise:)
That's my ace in the hole ....and no one can deny me of that:)
J
Glad you had what sounds like
Submitted by Delphine on
Glad you had what sounds like a breakthrough with your wife, J. Although I'm not clear on the difference between debating and arguing...? If you want to clarify further the details of this encounter, I'm sure we would all be interested.
Yes, I've been applying all this stuff, practicing what I preach, in relationship with son. I was working on uplifting my consciousness pretty intensely (the Ho'oponopono prayer I've shared about here before) while he was sharing the apartment with me. I am quite sure that is one reason it has worked out well, going our different ways while keeping in touch. Things are going good for both of us. We're pursuing our goals and dreams, and it looks like he may become very successful in his chosen field. Slowly, I am letting go of worry and stress over him.
Last night I texted him a couple of links to pages about successful people with ADHD. Walt Disney is one of them!
http://elitedaily.com/money/10-successful-people-adhd/
http://psychcentral.com/lib/famous-people-with-adhd/
And he texted back: "Yay for us handi-capable!" :)
Onward and upward, right, J?
Delphine
Sorry Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
The freaking edit function gets screwed up here sometimes (goes missing)....so I stopped and went back to finish so I wouldn't have to re-edit the entire comment after the fact. It's one way around it? Any way.....read it now....it's make more sense:)
J
J, this part of your post
Submitted by Delphine on
J, this part of your post seems to me, the crux of the matter:
My own dysfunction in the past.....was not being able to trust other people due to what happened to me when I was growing up. I knew...the only way I was going to get anywhere....was to learn to do it for myself and learn to fly my own plane. And to do that....I had to have faith and trust in myself and use that intuition I know I have and have known since I was a very little boy. I lived in fear all the time....and I knew the only person I could trust....was myself. And I proved it to myself enough....to begin to believe and trust my intuition and my instincts to tell me what to do.
I said previously that your wife was reflecting something in you...that you had been where she is at some time in the past. Now, you have a hard time being patient and understanding that your wife seemingly is unable to develop the same coping mechanisms that you did, with your intuition and instinct.
But that lost and bewildered boy, whose childlike trust had been broken and was living in fear, is still there inside of you, and reflected in the person of your wife. You said you never had a problem trusting your intuition/instinct...but the fact that you did go through a period of not being able to trust, shows that the development of those abilities took a little while. That boy needs your love and tenderness...and so does your wife.
Addressing this:
"Rather than being about pleading with an outer, omnipotent God and/or Jesus...it too is about a change in consciousness, in perception."
Right, we both agree here. But how do you get someone to see your point of view (or perception)? What options do you have?
I'd say it is not about "getting someone to see your point of view" or getting them to change their consciousness/perception. People change when they are ready. Our only option, really, is to work with our own consciousness and perception. And that's enough. The people in our lives will either change of their own accord, with or without our assistance, or will move out of our lives naturally, when the time is right.
So...hang in there J...keep on trusting and believing. And loving.
Delphine
Coming To Terms With Your Own Awareness Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
I agree with what you said here....and this goes right along with everything that both you and I have kept saying. You can only work on controlling yourself. You can't do that for another person.
The one thing that I discovered....before I ever came here looking for answers as to why? Was about those rare moments when I really would lose control of my anger which had not happened for literally years. I had long since thought that those were a thing of the past. In fact....they didn't even emerge at all that I can even recall with my ex wife in almost 15 years together so why now? "What's up with that?" as I thought.
It took about the 3rd episode like this to really notice something that I could not over look and I saw this clearly in myself as I was actually doing that watching of myself thing I mentioned...which has become a a habit now and I do it without having to even think about it. This particular moment of awareness....really was like having Deja Vous experience in that it felt like I had been there before or was reliving something familiar...but this time I actually recognized what it was?
And what it was ....was that experience of being Gaslighted by someone trying to control and manipulate me. Actually...not trying....doing it successfully which is what this technique does. In essence....it really is an offensive/defense to control up front or ahead of time and as NowOrNever referred to it.....as an assault. At the very least....it's offensive to you...the person being Gaslighted.
Of course...at the time....what I recognized only was the same familiar feeling of overwhelming frustration from attempting or wanting the person who is so important to you....just to listen to you when you are coming to them for their help....and in return....you not only do not get any help from them.....they assault you and rip you apart verbally with this technique they are using on you.
And the awareness of myself when I lost control of my anger....I recognized it as being like that child myself. And as I applied it to any other moments now in any recent past of the last 20 years going back....the only times this has happened was when my heart was taking such a hit in the same way and completely not understanding why there was this invisible barrier between my self the other person that told me...."this person does not Love me. "Someone who Loves me....would never do such a thing."
You could apply that last statement....to any side of this situation dealing with ADHD. The most common thing I've come to hear from non-ADHD spouses in their own thinking says.."If you really Loved me....you would just do these things I want or just stop doing these things you do? By not doing them or not changing....this proves to me that you do not Love or care about me and I must not be that important to you."
In both cases.....this proves absolutely nothing. And they are both wrong. "Two wrongs will never make one right"..... and that's one of those Universal truths that there is no denying.
I mentioned having to divorce myself from this feeling because this feeling was right on the money back then. This was one of those moments of truth that are almost too difficult to look at.....but I will never forget the moment in my T's office when it finally hit me (and floored me)....when he finally got me to see the thing he had been saying...but just in more words.
Paraphrasing..."It's a sad day indeed....when you actually come to the realization....that one of your parents does not Love you or does not even possess the capacity or ability....to Love anyone....not even themselves."
This was the missing Link to my entire childhood right there. This WAS....the real problem and the reason why I had those unresolved feelings I had been carrying around with me for nearly 40 years and could not explain or rationalize my way out of feeling.
My father....was malignant Narcissist with Anti- Social tendencies on top of it. (a winning combo to say the least...if you want to be victim of abuse that is. That's all they are capable of and Love does not exist anywhere inside a person like this. Not real Love...only some weird Bastardized fabrication at the very most) As I have mentioned...he was a predator. Which in terms of a father to me....you'll NEVER get anything from a predator, and a Tiger will never change their stripes. A predator ....only takes.....it kills and destroys to feed themselves and you are only a piece of meat to eat for their use for their own enjoyment..or..for them to take out their own self loathing and hatred and use as a punching bag for their own frustration which will immediately make them feel better. And since....that functionally do not have the ability to care about you what so ever....that immediate release of those uncomfortable, pesky feelings and emotions....they cannot even begin to entertain the fact of having them in the first place....let alone, resolve any even if they were to have them at all ( which they do not have ANY at all including Love....that's the point) ...and especially.....but especially and even more critical their own survival and protection in continuing to be this way and do what they do to people (as I just described a predator) if they start feeling anything even close to feelings or emotions like guilt or shame... any exchange you will ever have with them (including being Gaslight as just one of many methods a person like this will use) will prevent you from ever getting anything from them EVER (not even once).....which always comes at you as an assault to your being of some kind in an overt offensive way. This is the accurate profile of a Malignant Narcissist like my father with that added Anti-Social quality which is the predator on top of it. This is what my T had to show me...in order for me to finally get it through my head that this was who my father was. And the day you come to this realization.....is an astonishing and devastating fact that you could never even imagined or come up with on your own. I would have never understood this fact....unless he had got me to face the fact of who my father really was.
And that explained everything...in that "flash moment in time"...sitting there in his office and finally coming to this stark and frightening bit of my own personal reality.
Love does not exist....in absolute terms. Not just a feeling I had but that unresolved feeling I was talking about. But this time...in those rare exceptions....it was right in this one case. In the very rare exception comparing him to almost any other person you will likely meet on the street.... A person like this is absolutely incapable of Love of any kind and they simply do not have the ability to Love anyone....period.
That'll wake you up as they say. That caused a catastrophic chain reaction to my soul ...that unhinged me right to the core of my very existence....literally. It left an indelible mark on me that I will never be able to forget.
And I don't want to get off topic here....but it's why when I hear the word "Narcissism" thrown out as a possible diagnosis for other things including ADHD.....I sit and read the other behaviors and go..."you really have no idea.... unless you know what that experience really is....or trying to compare it too something like being self absorbed, self centered, selfish or even Narcissistic. An accurate real bona-fide professional diagnosis of NPD or ASD is so severe....the one main ingredient... is an incapacity to actually experience Love as a feeling for anyone including that person for themselves. It literally....does not exist.
And ultimately...since my T could not actually meet the patient in this case...it was up to him to present what he professionally speculated from all my stories....and then for me to see if it fit what I knew myself. And that catastrophic unhinging of my soul was the thing that told me he was right. That's how I knew that intuition was telling me exactly the right thing all along....yet I had discounted that feeling in disbelief for just as long.....since I would never have been able to come to that conclusion and the things I just said on my own. Not in a million years unless someone like my did explained it to me in those very terms. For me....this was necessary for me to do this....and resolve all the feelings I had for my father going back my entire life as far as I could remember into my childhood. This was the "King Pin" that tied it all together.
This happened actually years before I learned I had ADHD. When we finally got around to that diagnosis....that was a walk in the park compared to making that first discovery and that by itself...was not at all devastating. More like getting a shot in the arm of Penicillin in comparing it to unhinging my very soul?
And the only reason to ever bring this up or talk about here....is to bring you or anyone else to this kind of understanding. There are no unresolved feelings left that I need to resolve.
Having said that....there's the PTSD that comes from that experience. That's just operant conditioning and not unresolved emotions and feelings. All that is is just the body reacting to a stimulus....like an Ameba getting an electric shock and moving away from the source. That's different in respect to triggers.
So in those rare moments when someone triggers that conditioned response like my wife did by Gaslighting me....that flight/fight response (which is extremely powerful and strong for me).... that comes directly from this kind of abuse brought me right back to the Deja Vous feeling like I said.
But this time.....I knew exactly why and what it was. And in that moment....I was that child again but I recognized it as being unmistakably the same. And I also realized at the same time....that my intution was being hyjacked by my past expereince. In the case with my wife...it was telling me she was my father only because she was Gaslighting me and my own behavior that ensued was reacting as if she was. This time...unlike with my father....it was not telling me the right thing. That's what I had to do and go through the process of divorcing myself from that feeling since this time...I knew that it was wrong.
And that feeling said..."this person does not Love me. Someone who Loves me would never do such a thing."
This came after I went through therapy and resolved all those unresolved emotions and feelings? What's up with that? Is my intuition wrong...or my feelings? Or both?
My motive here...in saying this to you...is not to be defensive or not to be contrary to anything you said. What you said is in part....true...but not all of it. And like I said....I needed a professional who I could trust...to bring me that understanding.
I remember distinctly....a gentleman who goes by Tfarmer on this forum...who brought up PTSD from reading a description I had in relating it to something else entirely that I said and something registered to explain why I had come to this forum in the first place. To figure out these rare moments of uncontrolled anger that I had not experienced in over a decade or more that was happening specific to my wife it appeared? Maybe not his intention in saying it...and just his way of wording it but he followed with a comment to me saying that is good to find "you're particular (or personal) Algorithm"...and for that....I am very thankful to him for putting it so well.
I was the "identified patient" in my family. Also ...a term learned in therapy. Unlike my sisters...who bought into our families dysfunction and just went along. I did not buy in or go along. I knew something was wrong and I never stopped believing it. My intuition was the thing that I was believing more...than what was being told to me. As I felt so often.....in reflecting back to my very well defined and distinct feelings going back to a very young boy. My intuition was telling me exactly this.... "I'm being lied to....and I know it. No mater what you say to the contrary....I know I'm right and you are wrong." And my intuition....was right on the money. Even as a child of say 7 or 8 years old. And I wouldn't let go of it...no matter what happened. I am very stubborn...when it comes to my intuition and I trusted it...even then.
What I discovered was....it wasn't that I couldn't trust what my intuition was telling me......what I couldn't trust was that feeling which was the main ingredient or by product of PTSD and the operant conditioning side effect of PTSD. That was what was missing in my ability to trust. That operant conditioned response which enacted my PTSD....was hijacking my intuition and going into instinctual mode only (flight/fight) by inserting "This person does not Love me....and a person who Loves me....would NEVER do such a thing."
In what you said in particular....it would be a reasonable "Algorithm" to say if you did not have this kind of understanding based on what you and I would know before I went to therapy. But without that "King Pin" to fit into place...and then including PTSD and operant conditioning into the equation....it doesn't fit exactly to what I now know. What I know now...is what I just said. My intuition...has been working over time ...in respect to being the "identified patient" and knowing somehow....I was right all along and it has never stopped working since I have always been aware of it. I just didn't know what it was? And it became highly developed but for a reason that most would not assume unless you plug my persoanl Algorithm into it.
What you said here I totally agree with....."I'd say it is not about "getting someone to see your point of view" or getting them to change their consciousness/perception. Yes....this is true. But in the specifics to my particular equation.....something more that just getting someone to see my point of view was involved.
Cognitively.....I knew exactly what was going on and was very clear about that. I could even write what you just said to someone else and be very sincere in doing so.
For me in particular (not assuming anyone has my expereince)...what was happening when my wife Gaslights me (or assaults me as it felt like)...was her hitting the panic button. That's not just "hitting each others buttons"....that's hitting one in particular that was not about unresolved feelings or intuition. That was like someone taking an electrified cattle prod and sticking me with it repeatedly by electric "shock". She was systematically causing a visceral "shock" to my nervous system and then the ensuing "Panic Attacks" which I had not experienced since I was a child in the same way. This is an uncontrollable shock to my nervous system and was not emotionally involved.
And even then....my intuition was telling me the right thing. The PTSD conditioned response was the thing throwing me off...my intuition was telling me that the person doing this was not like my father in any way.
So in those terms....I had to divorce my operant conditioning....from my intuition that I know has been there and is highly developed. What I couldn't trust was the PTSD. Which is what I came here to discover why I was having those episodes of uncontrollable anger towards my wife.
This is direct cause and effect. And discovering this for myself then posed a different challenge. How do you tell someone that this is happening and to make them believe that what they are doing...is having that kind of extreme adverse effect to you and causing you to burn your nervous system out every time they keep hitting the Panic button repeatedly? Point of view....then becomes more imperative and even more important and is not just getting someone to agree with you. It becomes an actual NEED in getting them to believe you and they refuse to do so by the very nature of why they are doing it in the first place. To avoid looking at themselves as doing anything wrong.
I almost left my wife over this it was that bad. Not about using this particular thing that hit that Panic Button....it was about her not listening and believing me and never being to able to say exactly what I just said to you here. And to this day....she still doesn't know because she refuses to understand....listen...and believe me. That's why I almost left her and walked out the door not anything else.
In my wife's minds eye....she can see nothing about herself....that would tell her it's even possible to figure all of this out so clearly and know exactly what I am talking about. The one thing that I have always been able to count on and believe...is that my intuition was trying to tell me something but I didn't know what it was saying.
Yet to a certain degree....I went with it instead of believing otherwise any way....at my expense in some many ways. It would have easier for me growing up....if I had ignored it and allowed it to slip away and become disconnected with it which I thankfully....refuesed to do and I wouldn not let go of it as much as my father did his best to do that to me. I became the focal point for him....in never being able to fully control me or make believe him. I was the one who could see through him and without knowing any better....he was exposed to me in that way and somehow he could tell by the fact that he never found a way or method to control me like he could with everyone else and that was as my T put it..."the part of me that found a way to see my own self worth and value in the face of someone who was trying to destroy it as hard as they could."
It was my intuition....that did this for me or else I would not have made it through like I did. The harder he tried to destroy it.....the stronger and more develeoped it became out of the need to do this for myself. If I didn't have that to do this for me...I would have bought in like my sisters and that was the one thing I stubbornly refused to do in order to maintain my own personal identity which in itself...is a threat to a person like my father. He could not control me and he never succeeded in doing that.
And in respect to my wife trying to control me or use any of those same methods.....it will be a cold day in Hell when that will ever works with me. I'm a pro and a veteran in that respect. She'll have to do better than my father as far as I can tell and I don't see that day ever coming....thank God for that! lol
As I mentioned earlier....shes "childs play" if I wanted to play that game with her. This is what is so frustrating for her at times. I am so resistant and immune to these things....it has little to no effect on me what's so ever. Which is why she kept hitting that Panic Button harder and harder in her attempts to use the only method that she learned how to use to get what she wanted. But one method or symptom like this....does not make a diagonsis as my T has said to me. The only thing telling me that....was the PTSD and the operant conditioning from that kind of abuse.
Without question....Gaslighting is abusive and destructive....but....it doesn't have to be. I have control of myself and what I do with that and I'm not a victim in that respect. I have played that role or part many times in my life....but that intuition that was working...never allowed me to adopt a victim mentality. Even as a child. That was the thing that my T was describing.."that saved my life." In other words....I saved my own life and used my intuition and instincts to do it. It was a do or die situation for me and I refused to die.
As the definition of the "Identified patient" or "IP", is a term used in a clinical setting to describe the person in a dysfunctional family who has been unconsciously selected to act out the family's inner conflicts as a diversion; who is the split-off carrier of the (perhaps transgenerational) family disturbance.
In other words....the "Buck Stops Here." Stubborn? It is also one of my best and most outstanding qualities. It is merely a sign of inner strength. When things go badly.....I'm a good person to have in your boat along with you:)
J
What exactly is it your wife does, J?
Submitted by Delphine on
...you frequently mention her "gaslighting" you, but I am not clear on just what is it she is doing. From the way you describe it, as being like an electric cattle prod, and that you've almost left her over it, sounds very abusive. Yet mysterious, because you don't go into details about it.
Everything else in your post is clear. Just not that part. Makes it a bit frustrating when trying to understand.
Delphine
Controlling...Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
Thinks in terms of autonomy. A person who has a lack of autonomy....has a lack of self. Here's a clip I took from an article on co-dependents.
Control is important to co-dependents. Many attempt to control what they can’t (other people) rather than controlling what they can (themselves, their feelings, and their actions). Without realizing it, they’re controlled by others, their addictions, their environment fear, and guilt.
This is the delusion. A co-dependent....believes or feels as if this is happening to them....ie: they are the ones being controlled by you, their environment or other people.....but this is not happening at all. They got it all screwed up in their head.
A delusion is a belief that something is happening....that isn't. In reality....nothing is actually happening....but that's not what it feels like to a co-dependent person who has no autonomy.
The problem is......they think your the one who's crazy.....but in reality, they're the ones who are crazy. (using crazy here as a euphemism here only)
don't know what you are talking about,
can't understand what's wrong with you,
think you are not telling the truth,
think that it's you who is the cause for everything that wrong,
can't communicate of talk about your feelings accurately
are confused and indecisive
demanding and controlling
feel pushed and bossed around by others
say mean and hurtful things
think people are rude and disrespectful
don't know what's wrong with you
can't understand what the problem is them even though....... "I just told you what I want. I just told you...why aren't you listening. I just told you....why don't you understand?"
"It must be you who doesn't understand plain English and simple ideas or concepts!"" (There's the accusation and the blame Said in anger and irritation always since.....it's not them who's causing this.
Yet they are completely unaware, unconscious and cannot see....that it's them who are the ones doing everything that they just accused you of...and you didn't do anything to make them feel or believe any of these things. They did this all in their head all by themselves.
It is in that respect....the epitome of hypocrisy...but even in that....they will still see you as the hypocrite not themselves in that too. Instead of mirroring you when you speak to them.....they see you as themselves....because they have no self to see. They need a label...is order to understand anything including you or themselves and are extremely insecure in their own attachment.
One minute....clingy and needy......the next minute defensive and oppositional.Push...pull....push.....pull. Offense....defense....offense....defense.
They are one man/woman Basketball team....and the "game is on".... 24/7 and are always in competition with who?
Themselves....( or the turd in their pocket...either way you want to look at it?)
Yet they will accuse you of the one being competitive too...no matter what you say to the contrary or to refute them in any way....all you get is...
"Nothing wrong here....it's all you. I did nothing wrong!!! Why are you being so defensive and competitive? You're such a hypocrite! ) Right.
errrrrrrrrrrrr!!!! lol There's the Gaslighting right there.
And yet.....you've done nothing. Aren't being competitive. Haven't done anything of the things that they're doing but accuse you and believe your the one doing all of it.
In fact....you might as well just grabbed a chair and sit in the middle of the room, absolutely dead quiet and don't twitch a muscle.....and just watched this drama unfold in front of your eyes and try and keep score of who's winning or losing on any particular day when this Basketball Tournament starts happening....
And then at the end of the game.....they will accuse you of doing everything you just saw them do and you didn't even move a muscle...and when you try and explain that to them.....they will deny it and say you were the one doing all of it....and it was them sitting in the chair watching you instead. And then get angry with them for insinuating otherwise.
So......See things that aren't there. See things in people or attribute qualities to you that aren't true. Paranoid and defensive. Impossible to have a conversation with. Demanding, pushy, bossy, fearful, worrisome, can't problem solve, can't do things for themselves, can't reason or see any way out of a predicament, say their independent, say their not needy, say their not demanding or pushy, and say they are not like this at all.
And still....they think you're the one like this.....even though....all you did was sit in the chair in silence and didn't move a muscle. They see everything in opposites as I mentioned earlier. It's pure projection is what it is during these distorted times of temporary insanity that my wife snaps in and out of. That splitting or Jeckal and Hyde thing I was talking about. (along with Mini Me)
So Delphine....in this extreme example (for illustrative purposes) a person who utterly lacks any or all..... personal autonomy and doesn't know who they are or what they want ( no personal identity) ...this is also what happens.....
Since they can't "figure it out" .....They hate you because they need you, They hate you because you need them, They hate how they feel when you there, They hate how they feel when your not there, They're lonely, depressed and never feel truly feel satisfied or satiated with anything, Are addictive. Over indulge with things like eating, spending and doing things for themselves in a futile attempt to try and fill the empty hole inside them by chasing after it on the outside....instead trying to fill on the inside themselves.....going in the opposite direction of the way their going. (outward...rather than inward )
All because they are so insecure and don't have a good sense of themselves or a good solid handle on their personal identity. who they are, and what they want.....none of this is you're fault.
But yet....somehow...it still is no mater how hard to you try to get them to believe you?
And yet....they can't tell you how...even if it were possible and they just don't know. AH HA!!! There it is!!!!! "I don't know." ( Brain freeze...hammer lock)
And the reason they "don't know" ...is because it's not possbile. Logic and reason...reigns supreme....always! If that's not the definition temporary insanity....I don't know what is?
But as far as my wife see's it. You're the one who's crazy. You have ADHD. Your the one with the disorder. You don't know what you're talking about. You, you, you, you. I came here to this forum and to see if I missing something in this arguement. And ...I not missing anything. That's where.....using someone elses disadvantage to gain advantage over you and control you is absolutely foul. That is as low as you can go and hitting below the belt. This is completely unacceptable and shameful behavior.
If my wife was really playing this kind of game on a real Basketball team in real life with a bunch of guys and a real referee. She would be thrown out of the game....beat up in the locker room by other players.....and her car would be vandalized and the tires cut and have Grafitti written on it saying "go home...Mama's boy!!!"
In a no so subtle way of saying (by the collective mind of competition and adversarial engagement in any sporting event) you just violated every known rule in the book. The same clearly accepted, well defined rules of engagement of fair play and good sportsmanship in any competition...where good sportsmanship and playing fair are stickily adhered to and exist. Everyone knows this and you don't need to explain it to someone. If you do and they can't play fairly.......
then you're just a no good, no account cheater, a big baby and a loser!!!!..... Go away...and never come back!!!!! putewey!!! lol
And still there you are...sitting in your chair....silently watching and listening and not saying a thing. You haven't done anything and yet.... it's all your fault and your the one to blame and are responsible for how they feel.
So the cattle prod in these terms. Is when my wife goes on offense in the Basketball game in her head....and she's using it to prod you around the court....like a Cowboy riding on a horse herding cattle. That's what they are used for are they? To herd, push, boss and control cattle?
Why do you think they call Cowboys..."Trail Bosses?" "Geta along little doggy....whoop, eyaahh!! Whip it....whip it good!! eyaah!!"
And yet....your still sitting in that chair....and haven't said a word.
Does that give you an idea... what I'm up against? And why I think she's completely insane and delusional sometimes?
Or feel an intense need to get away from this freaking one woman Basketball game going on in her head when she gets like this?
Or possibly.... even considered leaving..... when this got so out of control that she was riding her high horse all over the house and cattle prodding me to death like Annie Oakley? (yip....eyaah little doggie!!! Move em' on out)
Before "I"....had figured all of this out on my own with no help from her what so ever ...or next to nothing...that is...if you subtract any help I got from what she took from the equation which was more often than not.....negative instead of positive.
That is.....before "I"....figured all of this out on my own. By myself. For her that is.
Like I've been doing all my life....for myself. Despite the challenges I've had. And no one twisted my arm to go to therapy for all those years since I did that on my own too....so I could figure all this out on my own.....so I didn't end up like this. Which is probably what I would have ended up like....if I didn't take the initiative and learn to be autonomous and secure in my attachment. Even though....my attachments didn't start out secure.
It's why I have a hard time understanding what the problem is with her sometimes. The way I see it....if I did it....and I have ADHD....the what's her excuse? If I get impatient at all....that's where it comes from. I'm not asking her to do anything that I haven't done.
And she doesn't have ADHD. Did I say that?
The way I see it sometimes....in just one of my many more cynical point of views (just one of many I have by the way...but I can pick and choose from any from a long list I possess.... at will ....in control when ever I choose lol )
She was too busy playing pocket pool to win.....with a turd in he pocket. The only "WE" in the room at the time since....I might as well could have been not there or invisible and the same thing would have happened. There's no need for me if she's got her own Basketball game going on in her head if you think about.
And before I forget to mention if I haven't already....Did I say that I'm the one with ADHD?"
And they say I'm one who's crazy?
Impossible? You tell me?
Do you detect a bit of resentment and sarcasm here from all the help I've received from my wife because of own lack of autonomy and lack of personal power that I get blamed for .....and will never hear anything from her in the area of any gratitude or thanks for doing this FOR her....which has really changed out relationship and she is actually feeling better about herself because of it.....or else it would have never happened? Because.... she seemingly has no ability, willingness to see herself and go through the same work I did to get there?
And as far as I can see...if it were me sitting there doing nothing about it like my wife....
I'd just call her lazy....and not wanting to be bothered or uncomfortable......as my personal opinion or as a judgment to access her behavior.
As far as I can see.....she has no excuse as far as trying to use me...or ...or saying I'm controlling her to do anything. She's doing anything she wants any time she feels like it... and I tell her that and remind her of that almost daily.
She cannot use me as the excuse...or say I'm being controlling or manipulative as to the reason why she can't. But....she'll try..... if you asked her....but that falls right in line with everything else that I just said here... going right back to the first paragraph in my comment here.
And.if you try and argue that with her.....it will go no where.
Just like everything else she believes about me or even herself that is not true or is not actually happening.
It's all I can do...to just control myself. Having to expend any energy to someone else being out of control like my wife is more energy than even have. She is a negative energy drain in the fabric or the universe! lol
Lack of self...is her personal problem not mine as far as I can see? That's not something I can give to my wife since that would be impossible. It appears like temporary insanity to me...and just just nuts to even think that this could even be possible in the first place? How could that be possible....I ask you? ( just the thinking...not her...to be sure)
And it isn't my responsibility in the first place....even if it were possible....which it isn't....so that responsibility is just a delusion to and doesn't exist either. More Gaslighting insanity on top of more Gaslighting insanity.
Victim mentality? I think that's the only excuse I'm buying....and that's no excuse at all. But she will deny that too. Round and round we go...where we'll stop....nobody knows.
In this case however....it's me....because I'm not playing! lol No need to stop if you didn't start...right?
(social and editorial commentary and comic relief) https://youtu.be/LoF_a0-7xVQ
J
PS...If you have any more questions about my wife and myself....I will be glad to answer them for you:)
Ah HA!!! Light Bulb Moment!!! Conclusions!!! Yes!!
Submitted by kellyj on
This just happened.....a brilliant white flash of finding understanding. Yeah!!! lol
Two different languages? Yes indeed. Figuring this all out with a little help from my wife. Thank you Lord!!! lol
The answer: Conclusions
The observation: Not necessary and unwanted
How you got there and sighting evidence: Irrelevant and immaterial
Abstract: Huh?
3 part essay: Introduction, body, summary.
Scientific essay:
Abstract
Intro
Body of evidence and methods used
Conclusion
Discussion
The answer: Summary? Nothing else.
Mansplaining:
Abstract.
intro
body of evidence and methods used
conclusions This is the only part my wife wants? That in her mind is what "succint" means? "Hey Negro....that's all you needed to say!!!" OMFG!!! lol
discussion
My wife and I were just talking about a topic of interest....and she politely stopped me and said.....'I'm sorry....but I realized I was drifting and didn't hear anything you said."
I said "I'm sorry....I started doing that thing again you know splain'in....Thank you for stopping me since I don't need to speak unless you're interested. I'll keep trying to be more succinct. ( What ever succinct is? lol )
So then and she comes back to tell me something else related. I responded in brief...then gave her my conclusion. She stopped and turned around and came back and said..."That was succint."
"What I just said?"
She said "No...just the last sentence."
"You mean...my conclusion?"
And she said... "yeah....if you would just start with that next time....that's all you need to say." Light Bulb!!!! OMFG!!!
OMFG!!!! "Hey Negro....that's all you had to say!!!"
In my mind...."Succinct means (to me)....saying what you need to say, and use less words." That wasn't the problem at all after all and why it wasn't working
In my wife's mind.....the word "Succinct" means....only say your conclusions and nothing else. OMFG!!! No wonder we've been having these problems. But now what?
I can now relate a problem that I have...since finally.... I know what she is talking about. lol
This was a real problem I had in learning in school....but only in one area of study....Math
And as I came to learn later on....I do not have any problem with Math what so ever in fact...later in college, I got straight A's in it. But in Jr High School and High School....I struggled with it tremendously and almost failed with a D. The one and only D I ever got in all my years of school.
What's up with that?
I'll tell you exactly what's up with that...and I now think....this is the Holy Grail for my wife and I in our communications together since
I understand this very well. My entire issue in learning Math...came from how it was presented to me and I've complained about this my entire life. Light bulb!!
Ah ha!!!
So with Math and how they teach you. You walk in and start learning how to do these different operations. Am I'm going....why are we learning this. What purpose does this serve. How are you going to use this. Of what value will this have for me and how will I use it??
In the very essence of all these questions....what is missing is the very thing that needed to said first...up front....before anything else....
Where are we going with this? What's the goal or objective in learning this information? What's the concept or context?
This was the bit of information....I needed to understand learning anything new. Without it....I'm lost as it would appear.
And as I had to do by myself....was take the Math book home and figure it all this out by myself from scratch because the teacher never told you why you were learning this and what the goal was. In essence.....what's your destination? That was what was missing?
I later had to learn a little Calculus...just so I could work with 3 dimensional milling and making jewelry....a 3 dimensional object. This was easy for me to understand since....all Calculus is....is defining a point in space working in 3 dimensions.
And all Algebra is....is defining a point in space...working in 2 dimensions
And all other Math is defining a point in 1 dimension
1 dimension, 2 dimension and 3 dimension. If they had just said that up front....I would have understood perfectly. That's all they would have needed to say and I would have got it and understood it right from the get go???? OMFG!!!!
I see in 3 dimensions. That's how I was born seeing. I can't help not seeing in 3 dimensions because....this is how I was born. I've never not been able to see in 3 dimensions. It's why I can draw and do Art so well. I see it as it is in it's complete 3 dimensional form including: perspective (angles and contours), profile, front, back, sides, bottom and top. I can take that image...and turn it...rotate it. spin it, move it from side to side, move it around in my head just like on a computer screen if you've ever seen this done. I can see it from every angle and perspective you can possibly imagine and do this all in my head...and do it automatically since the day I was born??
I see this so clearly and sharply in my head....that I can hold that image like a photograph in my mind like holding a picture in your hand and copying it onto a piece of paper.....which is why I can draw it on a flat piece of paper ( 1 dimensional) and it will still look 3 dimensional when I'm done with it drawing it. Same with doing Sculpture. I'm just removing the parts that need to be removed...and what is left is the thing I see. All I needed to learn was how to use the tools. The ability to see it....is there already. I don't need the photo graph to do this....it's right there in my head exactly the same way....with a little error there here and there of course comparing to a picture without having the picture there. But mostly,....it will look almost if not exactly the same.
This ability to see in 3 dimensions is how I see everything. I can't not see in 3 dimensions?????? And I've been seeing things this way since forever..... since it's the only way I see things. OMFG!!!
And I draw things exactly how I see them. All I'm doing...is just copying the image in my head .....exactly like a photocopier onto a piece of paper with my hand and a pencil. No big deal.....what's so difficult about doing that. That's just copying? Right? I'm being facetious....but not kidding at all. It's literally how I see.
In fact....I use to refuse to use coloring books. No way!! "That's just coloring in someone else's drawing....that's just what you do at the end when you're all done drawing your picture? That's boring!!! Who wants to do that!"
I kid you not....quoting myself as my mother use to remind me of those times. OMFG!!!!
And I mostly....never colored my drawings any way..... and mostly just did sketch art with a paper and pencil. OMFG!!!
OMFG!!!! lol
I can't believe this....but this is the problem I have with communicating and why there is always something missing when someone only gives me one part of the complete picture out of context or starts with just their conclusions and give you nothing else? OMFG!!!
What do I do now? lol How do I see in 1 dimension if I can only see in 3 dimensions? This is a probelm for me and not anyone else's but at least....I now know what the problem is. I just don't know what to do about it now. OMFG!!! lol And if I can't use 3 dimensions to start with...I have a terrible time understanding anything? Which means....I have a terrible time understanding my wife since she only gives me her conclusions and nothing else.
This is a quandary that I am going to need to look into further. But hey ....like I said....."that's all you needed to say in the first place and I would have understood? OMFG!!! lol
But how do you problem solve or resolve conflict...without discussing how you got there with another person...and only giving your conclusions? If all you can see is profile (one dimension)....without any context, angle,contour or perspective? How can you ever resolve conflict or know what another person is actually saying or wanting since....this is an incomplete drawing as far as I can see it. I can't remove those things from what I see if I see in 3 dimensions automatically (and always have) and the other person can only sees in 1?
How do I remove context and contour, and angle from what I see? Can anyone help me? How do I speak...only from conclusions without the abstract, body of evidence, conclusion and then the discussion to follow? And still problem solve or resolve a conflict with someone who only draws conclusions and cannot tell you why or how they got there of where they are going with anything they say....apparently as I see it....no destination?
This is a quandary? Any suggestions?
J, genetic mechanical engineering
Submitted by dedelight4 on
J, what you are explaining also happens when people are genetically predisposed to mechanical engineering. My grandfather and father were engineers who designed and built machines for the auto industries. They worked on drafting boards where I also loved to play.
The auto company would come to my grandfather and say, "We need a machine to do such and such", so my grandfather would go to the drafting board and draw up a machine to do what they needed. He would mentally see every gear, switch,toggle, nut, bolt, EVERY thing. It was quite amazing.
But me and my siblings are all able to look at a mechanical problem, instantly see the solution, and then draw out a way to make that happen. It also happens in daily life with simpler items and events. See a solution and go about fixing it. We get VERY inventive and creative at times, with all SORTS of things.
I thought everyone could do this, but I learned they can't. Just like I can't do advanced math very well, but maybe its been in the way teachers were teaching me, to where it was harder for me to grasp. I always wanted to be re-taught in math in a different way to where I could learn it, because I believe I'm capable of doing so.
And You Wonder Where...
Submitted by kellyj on
the mind melting conversations about the universe come from? ha! Seeing angles is considered one of a number of sixth senses. I just found that out. Interesting isn't it?
J
How about Haiku?
Submitted by Delphine on
Ever tried writing haiku, J? Which actually has several forms, including senryu. Haiku is more about nature and the seasons. Senryu is also called "human haiku" and is more about some aspect of human nature and emotions.
The various forms of haiku are usually only 17 syllables. The 5-7-5 syllable (per line) scheme is often used, but not necessarily.
All forms of poetry, of course are, or should be, expressing a lot in fewer words. To write a really good poem is quite an accomplishment.
Anyway, you asked for advice, and this is what occurred to me. Practice writing haiku or senryu. Creative limitations can actually produce great results. You said you see in 3D. See if you can express your 3 dimensional seeing in 3 lines. :)
I'm not advising you to communicate with your wife in haiku. But perhaps this would give you practice in compressing your thoughts. I sympathize with you re your difficulties with your wife, but I also understand and experience that such detailed communications as yours require a lot of thought and energy to process. It's easier in writing, yet I still find the length and detail of your posts a challenge to read and respond to. A good challenge in many ways, but it's an adjustment.
btw, I never cared much for coloring books, either...felt the same as you about them. :) Also felt the same about math. What was it for? I asked a math teacher that question once. "What good is this?" He came back with something about it not being much good for girls. More of a guy thing, according to him, but he wasn't clear (to me) just how.
One more thing, re what you said about co-dependents. I've considered myself co-dependent in relationships. This became more apparent when my son was living here. I did feel a bit of your description of what it means to be codependent fit me, but mostly not. I express it more by being overinvolved in others' issues, worrying about them, taking too much on myself. I'm still working on that stuff even though my son is now living elsewhere. It's a challenge to focus more on me and what I need and want in life. Getting there though!
Delphine
Great Suggestion.. Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
Thank you for your thoughtful response. This is a good idea. Like I said about learning math. Having and end product or goal in mind is really helpful for me to use as practicing any thing I'm trying to learn or do differently. Haiku....I remember vaguely doing in school...but it's only a vague memory of actually doing it. Thanks for the idea....I'll give it a shot.
I'll come back to say more...but I wanted to Acknowledge a few things here so you know where I am with my wife as well. Now that I know what that is.
First I want to acknowledge the fact that I have been extremely frustrated as of late with this communication issue. This is apparent at least to me....that there is fair amount of venting of that frustration in my last posts. I'm sure it comes through and it is from this very thing. What I said to Dede about holding my thoughts and not sharing them with my wife is very true. I can't share what I really feel with her since that will only set her off and I am doing my best to stay out of conflict but I am fully aware of long term ramifications for me in doing this and in part....it comes out in that venting. I'm not doing it with her so I am thankful but also apologetic for the flooding that comes from that. I have realized this is a huge part of my long posts as well but until I find a better way to process this....writing things here is a way just to get it out. Apply a grain of salt or two and that will make more sense.
And from this acknowledgement....I'm getting a much better picture of what I need to do...in the face of resisting the pulling and pushing that wife is doing to get me into a co-dependent dance with her and the effect this is having on me. I'll return to tell you what I've learned.
Thanks for the ideas too...I can see the things you said and I think it will help:)
J
Also.....acknowledging that I have been stabbing in the dark in trying to find a way to interpret my wife and I have been pretty successful in using learning conversations to get to the heart of the matter of our own co-dependent dance I've been resisting and trying to hold at bay which is the thing that I really needed to sort out first before I could find any way around it. This has everything to do with denial on my wife's parts as well as unearthing any denial or unawareness of what was going on inside me as well. As I have come to find....
Ambivalence, Denial and Anger
This is now becoming very clear to me.....these totally confusing unintelligible conversations with my wife.... have never been conversations as I have long suspected. What I have discovered...is what they have felt like all along. A mixture of uncertainty, confusion, venting, and expressing an incomplete thought or idea....which comes back to me as the very thing she is feeling. As I see it or interpret it....it's just purging unwanted emotions with me in the room with her. They're not angry rants as much as repetitive loops, and perseverations of indecision and rhetorical questions which just come out as pondering thoughts as much as anything. And as it appears....I could be in the room or not and it wouldn't make much of a difference. All that I get or feel from her when I mirror her is exactly as I reflect it back to her. Anxious concerns and opposing indecisive statements of ambivalence.
I think it's safe to say....that this experience for me is just exasperating and mostly frustrating to endure sometimes. But beneath that....I'm getting tired from feeling the hurt from the feeling that you are working so hard....for a relationship with a one person who has one foot out the door all the time. This gets old....but more for me....I've really pin pointed my own anxiety and hurt and anger which points directly to my own old default insecure attachment style as a anxious/preoccupied opposed to her dismissive/avoidant. As I have mentioned....this codependant push pull is really hitting on my past in a way that is starting to wear on me.
As I hear her...“I can't live with you and I can't live without you" ....but said with p Which leaves me feeling anxious and hurt.
marriage counseling?
Submitted by Delphine on
Have you tried couples therapy with your wife, J, or brought it up with her? It does sound like the two of you have a lot to work through.
You say the relationship is "hitting on my past in a way that is starting to wear on me." Bringing up old stuff with your father?
btw, I think the fact that your Dad spoke regretfully of his treatment of you on his deathbed (as your mother told you), shows that he did love you (as much as he could), but was unable to demonstrate it, because of his own issues.
Delphine
P.S, J...
Submitted by Delphine on
Just want to emphasize that as I said before (and I'm sure I speak for many), I greatly appreciate your contributions here. I get a lot out of them. That haiku suggestion, was just a thought, probably made because I enjoy writing poetry, myself. So post on, brother!
EDIT: Just after I posted this, I saw your response, J. So if it sounds like I hadn't read your new post (which I am going to do now), that is why!
Delphine
Actually, Now...
Submitted by Delphine on
You wrote:
Whoops, Delphine,
I see from J's post that it's possible that you didn't intend to request my opinion, but were requesting it of people with ADHD.
I was requesting your opinion. Or more precisely, clarification on how you saw the Aikido relating concept.
I'm fine with what you responded. :) I am glad we are exploring this here.
Delphine
I'm Not Sure Who's Opinion You Want?
Submitted by kellyj on
Delphine....I think you might have been asking NON from the progression of the thread but....since she doesn't have ADHD (as far as I can tell? lol ).....I'll jump in here with some thoughts I have. I've actually been digesting this discussion about Aidedo and my experience with Karate...and trying to apply to all my active abilities: swimming, motorcycles, sports even the Ballet I mentioned.
If you look at the core component to all of them....it's balance. Mind, body and spirit.....and unifying them together to form balance as whole.
So if this is the goal. Aikedo fits right in. So yes.....I think this would be very helpful in getting yourself in line and in balance.
Something I wanted to come back to that struck me that NON said earlier about confronting the Gaslighting
3) realize...and it took awhile, but I did suss it out... that this kind of gaslighty assault, coming from him, was NOT about the reality of my motives and words.
And then she further went of to talk about trusting yourself.
I think the kind of trust that is associated with this kind of thing.....happens spontaneously in the moment without a second thought. It comes from the first instantaneous impulse that hits your conscious mind and you react to it instantly.
And look at where all the problems associated with ADHD come from. Impulsivity. This seems to be in direct conflict with what I just said?
There is something intangible about this....that I cannot explain and it comes from a strength of having ADHD gives you. There are positives as well but only you the person really know those things I think. These things I'm talking about....you are born with and I have known these things about myself all my life and still cannot explain them. I have abilities to do things at a glance...or have never done them before....yet somehow..I know how to do them. This isn't beginners luck either. At the very least....the learning curve is so short....I've been able to literally teach myself how to do certain things without anyone telling me how to do them and mostly.....it's all from intuition and nothing else. It's almost Freaky weird to try to explain.
And in the moment....with no other thought or even thinking about it.....there have been times that I just went with it in an instant by almost reflex action and did what I needed to do without a thought or knowing how? Mostly....this is all physical response reaction and actually trusting my impulse...instead of questioning it.
To say this another way....it comes from within and it's already there. When I use that to guide me it seems....I have that kind of balanced feeling that says it right almost instantaneously.
When I think about riding my motorcycle as fast as I have right now this minute....it scares me to death. Honestly. To think about it creates a pit in my stomach and I can't believe I even did that?
But in the minute when I'm there....that feeling I'm talking about tells me exactly what to do and I am not afraid at all. The second I start over thinking it....is when I start to loose touch with it.
In fact once during that ride across Nevada at 120mph +.....I started to lose my nerve for a moment and fear started creeping into my thoughts. My hands started to tighten up and my body started following. And when that happened.... my bike started oscillating which is a really bad thing when you are going that fast!!! (understatement to say the least )
And you may not believe this but the way I stopped that from taking over me? I closed my eyes and took my hands completely off the grips at 120mph for a few moments and cleared my mind and of everything I was thinking..... and that feeling in my body and my hands completely went away and my balance returned and the fear went away.
As I'm seeing this now......this is what they teach you in martial arts and is the same thing that NON said about trusting your inner feelings and going with them completely.
Letting Go
Submitted by Delphine on
Thanks for sharing more about your speedy motorcycle ride, J. I do think you are very brave!
Yes, I agree, letting go is a big part of the martial arts teaching. And self-trust.
I did ask NowOrNever if she thought Aikido (as it applies to interpersonal conflict) was applicable to relationships with ADHD. I had thought we were on the same page with that, based on our previous exchanges, but I needed clarification on where she was coming from. Which I got.
Word is that practice of Aikido and other martial arts is very beneficial to ADHD. But of course, this isn't something you can tell someone to go and learn. Has to be their choice.
Delphine
In Context....I Thought the Same Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
But I think..... what I was actually trying to describe was something else than bravery. And now I know that martial arts could be a possible recommendation for ADHD....(I didn't know that either) I'm even more intrigued? And I do understand why you said that too.
How can I describe this? I really don't now how? I'll try and say this differently but I really don't think I can explain this at all? What I'm talking about has nothing to do with bravery, emotions or feelings and it's not really intuition either. It has to do with connecting up with something internally. That's what it feels like but that's not it either.
I've heard people talk about people with ADHD being in the zone or in flow. I know that well but that's not it. You mentioned empathic ability to me too and I discounted that because....this is something else and it's directly related to what I learned in Karate...
How can I tie this together because I know it's related to what you're talking about. It's an ability to sense things. Not people and not empathic ability. It's knowing vs knowledge. But you don't know how you know it. It's not De ja Vou either.?????
Okay...I give up. I have to tell the story....lol This one was taught by my Karate instructor way back when and when...and when he told it to us....I knew what he was talking about immediately because I have these experiences all my life and I don't know why? It why I think it's related and possibly why it might apply? And for nothing else....I been wanting to understand why this happens to me as much as anything because I've never been able to explain it and it drives me crazy sometimes not understanding what it is? I'm not big on psychic explanations and when I can't explain thing scientifically....it bugs the crap out of me! lol
Here it is...
There was a Emperor...who had 3 sons. He needed to pick one to take his position as Emperor since he was aging and near the end of his life. So he designed a test. He placed a pillow above the doorway to his private quarters so it would fall on the head of anyone who walked through the door and he called each son in turn to enter through the door with the pillow place over head.
The first son opened the door and stepped in....and as the pillow fell...he drew is sword and sliced it in two before it hit the ground.
The second son opened the door and stepped in but as the pillow fell...he stepped aside and let the pillow hit the ground.
The third son approached the door...but as he reached for the handle...he hesitated and then stopped and would not enter.
As this story goes....the third son inherited the Emperors position....the second son was assigned to be advisor to the first son....and the first son was banished from the kingdom and not allowed to return until he had learned the lessons well enough to pass the test.
There's a whole bunch of references associated to this story in what we were learning specific to martial arts....but the thing about the third son knowing that the pillow was there? This happens to me and has happened many times throughout my life and it's not just a feeling. It's knowing the pillow is there. Like I said....its knowing something....that there is no way of knowing?
And since I have ADHD....and since they recommend it....and since they teach these things to you in martial arts. Somehow...there must be a connection? Apparently? Or they wouldn't be telling you these stories? And I can't help but think there is some connection? Even in relationship to avoid conflict which was the whole point of the story?
And it's also why I brought up the motorcycle story again. This is a spiritual thing as I can't explain it any other way? As I see it....bravery has nothing to do with this but I can't tell you anymore than that? But I do think it's connected but I can't explain it or explain why? Ever heard of such a thing? I'm clueless...but...it's pretty cool when it happens?? I just don't know?? Really this time....I don't know?? (but when it happens I do! lol )
J
I see your point, J
Submitted by Delphine on
Intuition is what you are talking about. Highly developed intuition. Or by another term, sixth sense.
It would be interesting to know whether this is a common ADHD trait. I know my son has demonstrated it to quite an impressive degree himself.
He's an artist. Intuition is probably something that goes along with that. I know you work with jewelry, that's an art form also, of course. And then there's martial ART--back to the topic at hand!
I'm highly intuitive also :) And yes, I do art.
Adding to Do's or Don'ts of Being Gaslit
Submitted by kellyj on
Moving away from the more rare and probably not happening event that the person in front of you doing this is a Black Panther (character only ...no resemblance to anyone real ).
Once you recognize it.....DON'T TAKE THE BAIT!!
Any response is taking the bait. (in the moment) As I have said before about my wife "baiting me".....this is what she was doing.
And my countless remarks about....."not entering the ring" or " not engaging" does not imply doing nothing in silence and just sitting there either.
Active participation is not "silence" and then going off to lick your wounds in silence. If anything....you shouldn't be licking your wounds...you should be trying to calm down from the anger you feel from having this done to you. It's a form of "cheating" and "playing unfair". Why would that make you feel hurt if a person tries to cheat at a card game? No reason I can think of? If someone is cheating....call them out and call them a cheater and refuse to play any more? At least that's what I do. How many times can a person try and cheat using the same method and you keep catching them?
Assertiveness, energetically and if necessarily.....fiestily.....calling them out of it....is stating what they are doing...and telling them straight up...."I'm not playing." And then say nothing if they respond. No mater what they do or say. That's when you shut up and don't say anything and leave them in silence. Not for you to do nothing.
In order to combat this....you HAVE to do something. Calling them out....."nice try" "that won't work with me any more"....."I respectfully aquiess."....is responding......but not to anything they say. This goes no where.....but you did do something. It leaves them with no where to go....but you didn't aggree....disagree....or even ackowledge THEM.
What you're acknowledging is that you recognize WHAT they are doing....and refusing to engage at the same time.
The value of understand what projection is....is to understand Gaslighting. If you can recognize one....you will be able to recognize the other. What a person is doing when they Gaslight you....is a disrespect to you since.....they are not acknowledging you at all. They are disregarding you and dismissing anything your saying or wanting as a deceptive way of responding to you without responding. And acknowledging you without acknowledging you.
Most do not expect this and think they are actually responding to you and acknowledging you because it kind of sounds like they are?
But they're not. Plain and simple.
Fighting fire with fire means....."you don't acknowledge me......I won't acknowledge you." "You want a real response from me....then actually acknowledge me first and give me a real honest response in exchange...and I will abide in the same way." If they try again or don't do what you ask which is not only reasonable....it is what everyone expects. That's why it's so unfair and disrespectful because they are cheating and trying to bend the rule to their favor. Don't let them...and they can't do it. Assertively...not passive aggressively."
Like walking right up to them and looking them dead in the eye and saying "I know what you are doing....and I don't like it!!" And then walk away and say nothing after that. Silence is golden once you respond....but you have to see it right as it happens or it's too late.
With a Gaslighter....it's always quid pro quo. Always. They're making the rules....you're just playing by them. Out flanking them at their own game since they are one ahead of you means....forcing their hand and getting them "Even Steven". This is what Gaslighting is.....getting unfair advantage by accusing you before you do anything.
Once you take the bait.....now you've done it. It's too late. Knowing the game....and playing it better....is out smarting the Fox.
Game over
J
Twist and Shout
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm sorry....I keep remembering things here so I will just add things as I go I guess.
When someone twists the conversation and you know it. What did they just do? They just did a switch up on you in the middle of the converstation. "Twisting".....is getting that advantage back that they just lost or didn't have and getting ahead of you again.
So let's say they abide and you are now "Even Steven". Now...you are both on the same page together. As soon as they "Twist"......you are now out of synch again and have to call them out and stop the conversation dead in it's tracks right then and do the same thing again.
"Twist"....and you shout...."hey....you did it again. I'm not playing....game over." again
You have to catch them every step of the way each time they do it. Just because they stopped once....doesn't mean....they won't do it again.
Even in the same conversation.
Do not keep going....do not pass go.....do not collect $200. End it immdeiately with the same response each time they do. Twist and shout!!!
And then disengage. The last and worse thing you can possibly do....is try and debate and argue with them about doing it...or trying to get them to see what they just did. Last and worst thing you can possibly do. And don't disagree either. That's still engaging with THEM. This is what they want. To keep the conversation going. What you want...is for them to stop but keep talking.
What you have to realize is.....you are in a no win situation, Catch 22 the second you open your mouth past the point of no return....which is right when it happens.
Either right at the beginning if they came to you.
Or in the middle when you come to them.
When you come to them....is when you need to "Twist and Shout."
When they come to you....."nice try"
"Do it again....and the same will happen. Fool me once...shame on you....Fool me twice....shame on me."
J