Denial in ADHD I believe is not actually an ADHD problem. For guys, anything that looks as though they are lacking in something or are unable to control in their life, they will attempt to deny. There is even an scientific article detailing how men actually have very healthy attitudes towards improving on depression, yet are unlikely to seek help from a therapist or from others. You can imagine what potentially being listed as having ADHD ('deficient', 'disorder') will do to them. What will make them more likely to seek help is if you reword it. Rather than suggest a therapist, suggest a support group. Rather than saying seek help, say gain more control of their own life.
In my own life, this has helped me quite a lot. By seeing my ADHD as something to be taken advantage of, I have made a lot of progress. Rather than seeing it as something that impedes my ability to do things (although I am aware it can), I have seen it as an obvious route to making my life better. In other words, I now know exactly where to focus my attention and awareness on in order to make myself better.
Believe it or not, in psychology it's actually well a widely accepted view that men and women should be treated psychologically differently. Not only are there swathes of evidence for it, it is also acknowledged as a problem in psychology (i.e. therapists struggle to overcome the view that they should treat them differently). In terms of therapy, men want solutions while women want to be listened to. Though my earlier paragraph may explain why men are more likely prefer support groups more than therapists, it can also hint at how a woman with ADHD might overcome denial. For example, listening to her problems and getting her to reveal them might give them incentive to try to improve themselves more. Just something to consider for those with ADHD wives.
Anyhow, It's this mindset of trying to be better and trying to take advantage of my ADHD which set me off on trying to improve and which might help others overcome their denial of their problems. As always, there's always a next step. We know we'll need the persistence to have to fail multiple times before finding a workable solution. As the quote attributed to Thomas Edison says, 'I have not failed. I have simply found 10,000 ways that don't work'.
Great advice!
Submitted by Heart's Desire on
I have an adhd husband who denies it's a problem for us and avoids treatment. After five long years of couples therapy with (barely) any improvements I'm realising that our approach to this is not working, and may in fact be further detrimental to us. I'm going to seek solo therapy with a new counsellor (because I think I do just desire someone who will listen to me), and I've suggested an adhd coach for my husband as a way to help him gain control. I appreciate the insight into rewording this. It all comes down to words often, doesn't it?
What's the cause?
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Is the couples therapy unsuccessful because he denies it, or is it unsuccessful because your therapist is not doing a very great job? We've been in couples therapy for some time now with my ADD SO, and I'm starting to think it's making things worse, but only because the therapist keeps stressing all the time that "there's no objective truth", "everyone sees things differently", and "there's two sides to every story". As much as I agree with all of the above, when it comes down to the subject of ADHD, I think we really need to establish and acknowledge the facts BEFORE we start talking about how each party sees them. Because that's the gist of the problem, that we see things very differently, and there's always two very different sides to our stories. But there's also some hard fact, like how often and how much she's late with almost everything she does, or how many things she has trouble remembering, or how often she repeats the same mistakes, or how often she's surprised when something bad happens as a result of her own actions. And yes, then there's also my reaction, and that we can try do discuss and change. But what I think the therapist is doing, is that she seems to be enabling my SO and pushing her deeper into denial, because she's actually repeating the arguments my SO has no trouble formulating and uses on daily basis as a defence.
So, if I'm told "maybe you're not listening hard enough" or "you've developed a pattern of only noticing bad things that your partner does", my partner will immediately interpret this as "there's nothing wrong with me, the hubby obviously has some obsession with my behavior and exaggerates, that's exactly what I keep saying, but he won't listen". And every time the subject of ADHD emerges, the therapist would kind of maneuver around it, which is weird, as she's a behavioral therapist and should have some idea of how things work in a typical ADHD/non-ADHD relationship. So we keep pretending there's no elephant in the room, and if you say "try to see better" to a blind person, you can actually make them see.
The nail on the head
Submitted by Heart's Desire on
Yes! Thank you for wording what I've finally come to realise lately. I feel like I'm going crazy now in therapy because it's always about 'scripting' and 'communication' and 'seeing things from both sides'. Occasionally I try to bring it back around to adhd and explain that his symptoms and my reponses/his responses are typical and work on managing the symptoms but that message is not getting through. And ironically our pyschiatrist is trained in adhd and has it herself, but while I think she has a good handle on adhd and treatment, she doesn't have the training on the relationship dynamics between us and how to manage those. Of course there is scripting and communication issues, but at the route of it are his symptoms and unmanaged adhd. She tries to get us to understand each side of the story, but what if the original behaviour is abhorrent in itself? I've come to realise that my husband is at times emotionally abusive (due to adhd anger symptoms and hyper processing/focusing) and that couple's therapy doesn't work in that sense because what happens there is we are each encouraged to see the other's point of view, rather than address the underlying behaviour. This article was quite eye opening for me. When one partner doesn't have the ability to emotionally regulate (e.g. adhd would hinder that), then traditional "feels" and "heard" counselling doesn't work: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200905...
Of course, I'm up against my partner saying that I always think I'm right and perfect and our counsellor saying that I'm obsessive and that saying my husband is emotionally abusing me is a pretty big stretch and an exaggeration, so I can't even broach this topic. I tried to bring it up around one particular instance, and was dismissed by our therapist that it seemed unlikely. Another irony in this is that she counsels his whole family and his (adhd) father has been nasty/angry to his mother for most of their life together so she knows what he has grown up in. And still it remains in the background and it comes back around that we need to understand each other better. Sigh. Anyway, onward and upward! Time for a different approach.
Good luck, my thoughts are
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Good luck, my thoughts are with you. I admire your positive attitude in spite of all this. Hope you'll find a path that works for both of you.
Great article
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Oh, and you're right. Although my relationship is not abusive, I think the article describes the mechanism very accurately. But putting blame on the victim never helps the victim. And, in this case I don't think this kind of false support helps the oppressor, since they're not aware what they are doing wrong and many of them are as desperate as the non-ADHD spouse. If they're in therapy, it means they accept the fact they need help, at least to some extent. So I guess it's a serious mistake to sustain their bubble of ignorance/belief they're like everyone else/belief the partners' expectations are too high, instead of helping them understand.
As far as high expectations go, I'd like for us to be able to talk and understand each others' words. I'd like not to be involved in saving her over and over again. I'd like to be able to track things while she's around. I'd like her to clean her mess from time to time. I'd like not to feel like I struggle each day, hour and second of the day. I'd like to be able to meet with her at the appointed hour. I'd like to be able to sleep at least 6 hours per night with her around. Does this really sound so steep? Does it need so much "understanding"? And even if I understand better, whatever I'm supposed to understand, how will it help? Will the physical fatigue from not sleeping enough go away?
Sleep
Submitted by Heart's Desire on
I'm curious about why you're unable to sleep more than six hours with her around? I'm wondering as my partner lately has been waking me up for various reasons that to me seem because he's hyper focused on needing my help "RIGHT NOW" for some insane (to me) reason, even if it's 11 pm and I just fell asleep and with two young kids and working full time my sleep is at a premium. It's become a huge bone of contention in our house as of late. I'm thinking of having a sign on our bedroom door that has a road map of when he can wake me up (e.g. Is the House on fire? No? Ok, then you may not wake your wife.).
For one, her daily schedule
Submitted by BigSurprise on
For one, her daily schedule does not include sleep. Somehow, she's always convinced she can go around without if for days. This leads to her being exhausted all the time, and that's where the "perverse sleep" kicks in: if she's trying to focus on somethin, she falls asleep immediately. In bed, fully clothed, with her head on the laptop, all the lights around the house on, often witha very loud tv on. If I try to change anything, she'll wake up and "restore her order". She won't allow me to take the laptop, which is always next to my head in bed, just where her head's supposed to be.
If I stay up late and go to bed, and she's already asleep, she'll immediately wake up and start "doing something", which sometimes means she'll fall back asleep once she turns the lights on, and sometimes means she initiates conversations, or tries to initiate sex, or just does things like rolling down one side of my pyjama pants, which is very irritating.
And when she's finally asleep, she's still in constant motion, tossing herself around in bed and making loud sound in her sleep.
Sometimes she decides she'll go to bed, but falls asleep programming the alarm clock, and then wakes up after 5 minutes and falls back asleep before she finishes the task. Then 5 or 10 minutes later - the same procedure, over and over. It can go on like this for hours. And every time she wakes up with a sudden burst of movement, I do too. Paradoxically, I think she actually sleeps better than me, because at least she'll lose consciousness from time to time, and I barely have the time to sleep in the 5-minute windows.
And then she'll wake up at 4 in the morning (I usually wake up between 9 and 10), fresh as a daisy, and start any random loud activity you can think of. Or, if she remembers not to wake me, she'll close the bedroom door, but forget to open the window, and this room is very tiny. So, after a few hours, I wake up with a truly terrible hangover caused by prolonged oxygen-deprivation.
So yeah.
Ok, so I just read your post
Submitted by Heart's Desire on
Ok, so I just read your post and I'm aghast. That sounds like pure hell and torture. . . . I'm speechless. Is the only solution separate bedrooms?
Actually, I don't think there's a solution
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Thanks for your compassion. I know. Truth is, I'm not even sure how to respond to that. For several reasons... :)
First of all, it's just one of the many aspects of life. It probably could be solved as a stand-alone problem, but with everything that's going on, it kind of feels like saving one chair when the whole house is on fire. I'm not able to control everything all the time, and so I think my mind is numbing down, like my brain is saying "I don't even want to start thinking about another ADHD-related puzzle, I'm too tired".
Second, where we live, flats are usually rather small, so we don't have the luxury of multiple bedrooms. We have a sofa in the other room, but when she uses it, she'll go in and out of the bedroom for some things she needs. Sometimes she'll turn on the light and forget to shut it. And then there's the closed door/closed window scenario. When I'm asleep, like everyone, I am sort of defenseless and often wake up to some unpleasant surprise, like the window has been open for 6 hours, but it's -20 outside and I'm already starting to get sick.
Third, she often does sleep on that couch, and sometimes (no consistency here) I'm left alone all day and night, because when she "lands" there and organizes her working space (piles) around it, she switches into the absent mode. By that, I mean she forgets about my existence for a very long time, never returns to bed, just keeps sleepworking in that living room, sometimes for a week or two. But then, is this really a relationship, living in 2 separate rooms, saying "hi" to each other twice a day? Please note that I also use that room from time to time, and she'll go work/sleep on the sofa regardless of what currently on it. If there's my stuff on the sofa, she'll just lie down in it. Also, I'm still the one doing the occasional maintenance sweep of that area, getting rid of half-empty cups, dirty plates, pencils, socks, and small personal items. And if I need to use that room, I cannot do it immediately, gotta clean up first, as she occupies the whole available space. When I say "I need access to this room", the usual response is "in 5 minutes", which usually means min.: 3 hours, max.: infinity.
Having said all that, it's interesting how it relates to the original topic: therapy. So, what was that again? "You just need to show more compassion and become a better listener"? Yeah, sure, sounds exactly like the solution I've been waiting for for so long.
Sigh.
So I'm reading this and
Submitted by Heart's Desire on
So I'm reading this and thinking "my god, leave and just move on. And this is just one thing of many things?!" And then I think to my own situation and the incidents that add up/chronic dysfunction that close family sees and of course it's like "there are big issues there and we'd understand if you left". We stay because we love them, and we see their best parts too. My husband: he's funny and handsome and smart and great at his job and a fantastic father and when he pays attention to me and loves me it's like the whole world comes together and it's perfection.
I think the solution if therapy and meds and treatment isn't working, like Melissa has said, is to stay lovingly detached, focus on yourself, protect what you can't afford to let go for your own well being (e.x. finances) and let them just be. And if at that point you look at your relationship and see that it doesn't serve you, then it's time to let go completely.
Thanks
Submitted by BigSurprise on
This sounds sad and hopeful at the same time. Sad, because, it's always painful when we realize some things are not meant to be. Hopeful, because there is always a solution, if only we dare to pursue another path. Just like smd1409 said in the first post, "we'll need the persistence to have to fail multiple times before finding a workable solution". I keep complaining a lot, but in the end, I'm still trying to find another way, and it it doesn't work, then another. I just don't think we're able to do it alone, just the two of us. We need some real guidance, one that's more helpful. Still hoping to find it.
Just as you said, behind all that hardship I still see the person I fell in love with. I know her kind, gentle and innocent soul. I know it's hard for her too, I know she's doing her best, I know she only wants what's best for me. It's really hard to distance oneself from it, just walk and leave it. I think this is why we're here. Because it's hard, but we're unable to stop caring. For some reason, it seems easier to suffer abuse if it's unintentional, even if it finally comes down to the same things. The fact that her intentions are pure (and I truly believe it) make me stay and fight. Sometimes it occurs to me that maybe I'm hurting her too by staying, because her life could be in fact easier without me, just as it used to be before my time. She'd do exactly the same without all the guilt, remorse, and pressure she feels. But that path is always open, and I'm only going there after I've tried all other options.
Feels like a race - wonder which comes first: good therapy of my final breakdown.
Sleep
Submitted by Chevron on
I think getting sleep is absolutely necessary to getting through tough times, When I have sleep that disturbed, the fatigue rises, I get brain freeze, and I'm much more blown around by my own feelings.
My husband and I live in small quarters as well. No kidding, have you tried earplugs, noise cancelling earphones and those things you put over your eyes, to block out light, in any combo?
I dont know what it is, about some people winding UP, at bedtime, in the bedroom where other people are trying to sleep. I'll leave that one for the shrinks.
..edited to add: the noise cancelling earphones have been a godsend. He has a pair, too.
Your wife's gypsying all over your small place, with her piles, oh goodness. Do you have any space, in your small place, to call your own, that she doesnt gypsy into?
Earplugs are a bit like bringing a stick to a gunfight
Submitted by BigSurprise on
They could help a bit. They'd cancel the noise. They wouldn't help me with lights and constant movement. Unfortunately, it also happens very often that she expects interaction and initiates it. So, this would be a perfect object to play with, like flirtatiously removing them from my ears (I'm not saying sex would follow), or unplugging them just to tell me something really quickly, or just widget with unknowingly when thinking.
The piles are luckily concentrated around the area where she's currently sleepworking. But she moves the work area around the apartment, so each space is somehow affected sooner or later. There's also things not connected with work, things she usually sort or left behind. There's a slipper, there's a pair of shoes, there's a dirty plate, there's laundry that's been drying for over a week, there's a winter coat occupying the whole hanger in the middle of summer, shoes she started sorting but never finished, there's an open bag of bread cos she made a sandwich and forgot to close it, there's some cheese (the same sandwich) that didn't make it back to the fridge, there's bacon that she took out of the freezer but never opened (the same sandwich) cos she decided she's go with cheese, so it's now defrosted and now must be eaten immediately, because I cannot refreeze it. There's some papers that she's printed out but are still waiting to be posted ("it's not that important, nothing will happen if I do that in a week or even never"), and pens and pencils in every imaginable place. There's cosmetics that she used and forgot to put back to the cabinet, and some of those are always smudged around on the mirror, no matter how often I clean it. There's pieces of yesterday's clothing and today's clothing she decided she wouldn't wear, so she put them in a meticulous pile on the chair. There's breadcrumbs on the floor and in the bed. There's ice-cream stains on the sofa. And an enormous pile of dirty dishes in the sink that she remembered to put away, but for some reason she put them there, even though we have a washer, which she often forgets. There's things on the tables she had prepared to take with her the next time when she sees Alice, and next time when she sees Denise, but she's met tem a dozen times and always forgot, so she'll do that next time.
Yet somehow, if I put a fruit bowl, scissors, a pair of gloves and a pair of glasses on the kitchen table, she says she can't imagine how I can live in this mess.
Mess and no boundaries
Submitted by Chevron on
BigSurprise,
I so, so know the mess in a living space that doesnt have large rooms. You have already read, or will run across other mess descriptions by posters on this site. I've read everything I could find about the mess making, by professionals and by people with ADHD who have recognized that they make messes, lose things in the randomness and are frustrated by their scattering and piling, I still dont get what is going on with the mess making. I dont need a lecture on that ignorance of mine; I can see that all the routines established, all the junk drawers, all the cute color coded labels don't get at the originating impulse to scatter and pile.
I have a great deal of appreciation of what you describe is going on in your house, day and night. One thing that some therapists doing a professional diagnosis of Asperger's do is visit the person in his or her home. Things that dont get mentioned in an appointment are there to see. We're not talking about AS on this site, instead the discussion is of relations with ADHD somewhere in them, but there's as you say, so much that can be going on at home, that people not in the home, including professionals can't imagine the magnitude of. I'm talking about mess making in this post, saying from my own experience I BELIEVE that you're living in the chaos you describe, and I bet you're not exaggerating, either. Tips dispensed: hire a housecleaner, live with the messmaker's mess because who are you to pester a person who handles space and things differently from you, wheedle him/her into doing a chore...just one, one he/she can do... are so disproportionate and superficial.
What bothers me about your descriptions, beyond their ability to make my stomach turn over because I grew up in a household as chaotic as you describe, without any private space, and with a parent who literally would do with me as she pleased, like your frinstance of your wife "playfully" taking out your earplugs just to mess with you... is that as you describe your situation, you see no safe or quiet space for you in it...ever
Whoever thinks that physical chaos...and I do mean chaos, not the temporary pilings and disorders of people using space but then cleaning up regularly...is not more than the neater habited partner being pissy and judgemental about the messmaker's constantly increasing and spreading piles, doesnt know what they're talking about. After the piles, hoarding, spilling, get to a point and keep climbing, it's not two styles any more, it is total takeover and neverending increase.
I can guarantee that my appreciation, which is real, that my partner has a lifelong habit of spreading, piling, stacking, flinging, dumping what he considers trash right in the middle of his piles that he doesnt consider trash, does nothing, nothing! to improve his peace of mind, ease in living, safety, or any other basic good that both he and I wanted for him. So to recognise, fullheartedly, that when his attention shifts from whatever is in his hand he just sheds it because he wants that thing outta his attention, which is vexed by having to tarry to deal with whatever it is, the mail, an article of clothing, a glass in hs hand, and that no, it's not, having things out so that he can see them, he's shucking off whatever is in his hand that now vexes his attention, getting rid of it. i recognise this. I even appreciate that its driven by his flitting attention, and the piles are both the product of hs quickly needing to shed what his attention has abandoned but also not to lose somethng that he might need later. Like your wife's Denise piles.
But my love of my husband and recognition of his attention driven use of space does nothing about the issue of living in near total chaos, that crowds out the living needs (not observed) of one's partner.
Big, I had several years of courtship to see how my future husband handled his possessions in his own space and handled cleaning up after himself. I'm no spring chicken (as an online friend joked about herself when a discussion board poster called her a "chick," I'm a fully formed hen). I could see that his messmaking disturbed him...the number of things he lost daily was astonishing, and upset him a lot...and I could see that he constantly added to it, and was not going to use his time housecleaning. He didnt clean up. For years. I had the sense not to volunteer to be his housekeeper while we were dating...talk about killing romance, and why would I do such a thing to myself?? So it was very, very clear from what he chose to do with his own space that he would continue that wall to wall chaos making in our place if we married. My conclusion was that if he wouldnt take care of his own things in a way that was positive self care of himself, there was near zero probability that he would extend his attention to our common space once we married, or work against his well over a half century of habits of piling, leaving spills, and so on.
I decided that there yes, needed to be room for him to do his ways with hs stuff. But counter the trend of therapeutic advice about living with someone with ADHD, I decided that there also had to be, and I mean HAD to be room for me in the same living space. It. is. Not. All. About. The Person. With ADHD. PERIOD. My husband is adorable, means well, has extraordinary moral character and doesnt see half of what is happening in our physical space. His friends love him. I do. He has a strong personality, constant attention needs, and no, people outside our house have no idea of some things going on in it because, yes he lets down more it because in it he feels less need to edit out some of his behaviors, as he does in the outside world. He's not the only starfish in our sea at home. Being a fully formed hen, I hope not yet a tough old bird but yep a hen, I could SEE that if I, not he, didnt take a hand in being the one to clean and tidy some, not all spaces in our house, we'd be in the same magnitude of chaos that you describe, because my future husband DID build, create and maintain years worth of physical, stressful to him chaos when he had hs own place.
I believe you. Yes it is far more serious than can be dealt with by wheedling one's partner to turn a hand or mommy one's partner to organize himself or herself. That's not even a bandaid. And I will not ever, ever! Turn into the mommy or codependent persecutor of my husband, treating him like a stupid child. He is NOT a child and not an idiot. And I WILL NOT be hemmed in, in my own house, to the point that there's no place for me to sit down, or to sleep, or to have some uninterrupted peace.
we're living in a hybrid situation, some messy areas, some I insist on keeping clean and straight daily. I dont encroach on his mess areas. He can do what he wants with those. I stop the flood of things into the common areas, that I keep clean. I just carry them to his areas. Dai ly. Having lived in rental property that had insects in the walls because previous tenants were slovenly with food, and having grown up in unsanitary conditions as a child, I will not tolerate food all over the house...but I dont know what I'd do if my husband didnt already have the habit of not carrying food to all rooms of the house. There would be heat and noise over it.
I dont really get what motivates the constant increasing of piles and spreading, with never turning a hand to dealing with the increasing chaos. I do think that there needs to be room in our house for me as well as for him, and that it's clear as day that my husband will not be the one to clean up or notice my space needs or lend much of a hand on what we physically share. I quit a fulltime job because of this issue. Someone needs to care for my and our wellbeing. I'm not the only person on this board who has done this; I believe if I remember, C who is th husband of someone with ADHD did, as well. I'm lucky that my husband has a steady job and that's not in question. I couldnt handle the total 80 to 90 hours a week work that the constant domesti chaos plus fulltime work was producing. That's too much work per week for a fully formed hen
Thank you
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Thank you for the thorough post and for all the things you said. I'm trying different strategies, most of them lead to, as you described it, "hybrid situations". But there is none that works 100%, is there?
If we try to discuss this, she usually says things like "how am I supposed to know where you want this put? I can't read in your mind". Besides, it's kind of happening naturally, those things just pop out of nowhere, it're like a force of nature. No way I could live like that without cleaning from time to time, but it always feels like the shovel is not big enough. But no, we don't live in total mess and dirt, because I'm patiently and regularly sweeping all the most busy areas on the fly. If I go to the kitchen, I collect all glasses she left at random places, things like that. Try to do this when she doesn't see, because if she notices, she often protests, seeing she needs those things, Like she'll use this dirty mug to make another tea. But then, if I leave it, she goes to the kitchen and takes a clean one, and the dirty one remains.
Not sure if that's treating her like an idiot. She's a very intelligent, and very kind person. But the behavior, well... it kind of is... idiotic.
I'm living in constant dissonance, where a very intelligent person very often behaves like an idiot. I'm not even sure I can fully process that. HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE.
"I'm trying different
Submitted by Chevron on
"I'm trying different strategies, most of them lead to, as you described it, "hybrid situations". But there is none that works 100%, is there?"
: ) If "works" in your sentence above means "things thereafter stay put" or "we'll both get the habit of doing it that way, and we or I can rely on habit tending the situation," no, no strategy of communal labor execution works 100% in our house.
That things never settle down, physically, into a predictable daily pattern is part of the stressload for the person who is the cleaner upper. And for the major messmaker of the two, but I think especially for the person with the job of walking in on some new wrinkle of chaos, and being the only one to stand forward to tackled the new mess.
If we try to discuss this, she usually says things like "how am I supposed to know where you want this put? I can't read in your mind".
Consider that she may be telling you the literal truth; not that she's lazy (like a teen would plead ignorance in order not to have to do something) or short term amnesiac, but that she is literally that disconnected from space and from observing what you do with it, that she hasn't noticed what's been happening or where things are regularly put. My husband has taken years to absorb where some things are stored in the house, and there is something to "out of sight out of mind" for him. It doesn't explain the piles on piles on piles, but he doesn't have the same visual memory of the whole and the parts of space that I do. Nor can he apparently call up the memory of the inside of the house, or of a room or a closet, and visually think about where something might be stored. I don't know what to do about that amount of disconnect of attention from space, Big, I'm on a small quiet campaign to teach my husband where things are, so that he can go get what he needs when he needs it. Him putting things BACK, at this point, is a lost cause, in part because I'm refusing to get into traipsing around after him telling him to put away the milk that he took out, etc. What if she were as truly disconnected from attending to things in space as she says?
Besides, it's kind of happening naturally, those things just pop out of nowhere, it're like a force of nature.
Aahahaha, I love this. We live in a magical house, too. And things disappear, poof.
No way I could live like that without cleaning from time to time, but it always feels like the shovel is not big enough. But no, we don't live in total mess and dirt, because I'm patiently and regularly sweeping all the most busy areas on the fly. If I go to the kitchen, I collect all glasses she left at random places, things like that. Try to do this when she doesn't see, because if she notices, she often protests, seeing she needs those things, Like she'll use this dirty mug to make another tea. But then, if I leave it, she goes to the kitchen and takes a clean one, and the dirty one remains.
Familiar...... : )
I'm living in constant dissonance, where a very intelligent person very often behaves like an idiot. I'm not even sure I can fully process that. HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE.
Like I say, I don't think my husband is stupid, mean or other negatives. I do think that there is a big perceptual piece to the mess making. I don't know what the drive is, I really don't and again, at the level of living with him, I don't need a fancy explanation of it. That he needs things out so that he can see them is only sometimes; the behavior has more things going on in it than that.
What I can really respect in the physical situation for him, is that he doesn't notice, he doesn't notice....his attention flits to something else. BigSurprise, this may not be your wife, no two people with ADHD are identical (just like no two nons are identical), but during that two years of visiting my future husband in his rubble that he constantly churned and lived in, I didn't only notice the rubble and think about myself. I had plenty of time, since I wasn't plunged up to my elbows in cleaning up after him in his own place, to watch the impact of the shifting, spilling piles and stuff on him.
I think a part of it for him is something that has nothing to do with how intelligent he is, or how trained in life he was as a kid. There's a big piece of it that is ability to notice things in the physical environment in the first place; and once noticed, IF it is noticed, to remember it. Add to that a mind that is a flood of multiple thoughts all the time. So, I think the messing is very much affected by basic ADHD perception stuff. If that's the case, and I think it is the case for my husband, I'm not speaking of anyone else here, yes there has to be room in the house for his living in terms of physical space his way. It's just that it can't crowd me out.
From the POV of someone who in fact can have things occuring daily in the same rooms in which he lives, and not notice them, who in fact doesn't have the memory of where to find the toilet tissue, after years in the same house, and it's not because he's stupid or sullen, and who once that mind goes on to the next thing, loses contact with any memory of where he put that stack or left that cup or dropped that trash, what you and I (and the other 98% of the world that doesn't have ADHD) need to live in minimal physical wellbeing will come across as extreme, as well. The usual accusation leveled against the frustration of nons with messiness is that they're anal compulsive or...idiotically rigid.
Some people have tackled these really different space uses by separation: separate bedrooms, still married but separate domiciles, but I don't want to go that way and hope that my husband and I can settle into a hybrid routine, with both of us (not just one of us) accepting some daily flux and flex on the physical stuff. I can't at this point bet on how things will be regarding order and chaos, a decade down the road. I do know that I can't live in total chaos. It just doesn't work for me.
You've touched many important
Submitted by BigSurprise on
You've touched many important aspect in this post, that require another lengthy response, so I'll elaborate later. Maybe create another topic, since I kind of hijacked this one. And there's many aspects I didn't mention about our current setup as a couple (we're not married), but now, as we're going into details, I think they're becoming relevant.
For now, I just wanted to refer quickly to this one:
What if she were as truly disconnected from attending to things in space as she says?
Oh, trust me, I know it all to well. In fact, I think that's the deepest essence of the problem. I know the theory and it helps me deal with everyday stuff. Well, at least sometimes. I'm not saying it's her fault, I am acutely aware it's not intentional. But what I know is not enough to get rid of that dissonance. I'm only talking about what I know about her, not medical theory. I am living with a highly intelligent person. True. She behaves like she's not very intelligent. True. She's capable of understanding so many complex things. True. She's incapable of understanding the basic things. True. You see where this is going? :) That's the painful part, because I know she can't control it, she does not notice things or notices, but forgets them immediately - and I know no amount of talking, nagging, training, coaching and therapy will help 100%. I'm frustrated with my own frustration, but I also see hers, when she doesn't even know what I mean. She only knows I'm not happy, AGAIN, and she cannot understand why, AGAIN, so I feel like I'm causing her pain she definitely doesn't deserve.
All your observations are true in my case too, and I'm pretty sure short term memory issues play the major part. The toilet paper is always in the same cabinet. So are spoons. But after 4 years, she always needs to open all of them and meditate for a long time in front of them, and I think she needs to remember what she opened them for, then starts looking, but gets distracted and has to remember again what she's looking for, and then start looking again.
I saw her open the fridge when she meant to look for toilet paper. Because she remembered she needed to open something, but at that very moment couldn't recall what and what for.
Second, I think she often intends to do something and then her mind, as if, ticks that thing on the list as "already done".
Third, if it's multi-step activity, such as charging your phone after the battery died, I've observed a consistent pattern: She finds the charger. She plugs it to a socket. She find her phone. She plugs it in. After that, she must wait for a few seconds before it can be turned on. But at that point she gets distracted (too long to wait) and starts doing something else. But she remembers all the steps she took, so in her mind, again, the task is marked as "complete". (or she turns the phone one, but then she has to wait for the PIN screen to appear, and the same thing happens) So even though the phone is charging, she's still missing calls. And then, when she finally realizes, there's usually a few disasters already waiting on the voicemail and in the texts.
Does this sound familiar?
This Does Sound Familiar
Submitted by kellyj on
NS.....you nailed it pretty well. Having to arrange things in linear fashion is something that is not always easy to do? And then, if you get it set up and you start....if something interrupts the thought process and you get side tracked....( at least for me ) I will remember doing the "thing" ( the ticked, already done ) but not remember if it was finished or not? This does not happen very often ( any more ) but it does on occasion? It just happened in a situation which would be more stereo typical for me? I don't walk into the kitchen and open the fridge when I meant to get toilet paper...as a rule? Not on that level.....but this level is where it happens?
I called to pay off a bill on the phone, and I got all the way through the process. But at the end of it, there was a problem on their end, and it wasn't going through so the representative asked if I could call back tomorrow and try it then? ( the problem was on their end ) So, in my mind, I remembered calling them, and I even remembered going through the entire process like I would do? What I didn't remember was the anomaly.....the problem that didn't allow it to go through so I forgot to call back which was me forgetting that it didn't go through like it always does? It was the "glich"....in the program that threw me off? In other words.....I did all the steps right, I did everything I had to do....but for some reason, the unexpected happened and it didn't work ( on their end ) What I remembered, was what I was focused on doing and doing my part right and not counting on "their end not working"?
It was a "change up" pitch, that threw me off? Not good with hitting "change ups"....when things are out of order or things do not work as expected sometimes? Having to account for the unexpected is what usually throws me off track? Unprepared and taken off guard not just getting side tracked for no reason and forgetting where I was in the middle of it or in the first place? I still see this as the same thing..;...just not a bad and it takes more to throw me off? But the pattern of getting interupted...and then forgetting to come back or double check...and having in my mind that "I did that already".....is still the same. That's a tough one to account for sometimes....the "unexpected" and being "taken off guard".
J
Two sides to a story. But one story.
Submitted by BigSurprise on
JJamieson,
I am so grateful for your input on this. I am trying very hard to understand "that side of the story", and I believe I do at this point. I know the diversion comes unexpected and I realize there's little control over that, and there's very little you can do if you simply forget. I can't imagine waking up to all the nasty surprises, but I realize it must be very difficult.
I know what the "interruption points" are with my spouse, I know it quite well. But it's so so so so hard to accept those things happening virtually every minute. For a linear-thinker, it's very unnatural. But I think I'm really getting the grasp on how it works. Not that it helps. Well, maybe a bit. But I'm still trying to put things in line that are scattered all over. I know some of those things are not my property to mess with. I just can't live any other way, some basic things must be linear in my life. There must be some causality.
Your story is indeed very similar to what I'm experiencing every day. That happens to us too.
But you said you had no "TP in the freezer" problem. If you don't mind, I'd ask you this: do you often fly on the auto-pilot? Does it happen to you that you go to your car and start driving, and then you realize I've just come to your old house, instead of going to the market, where you originally intended to go? Do you often freeze in the middle of an activity if you start talking? I'm asking, because that's what my SO often does, and I feel these things may be connected. That's just the way ADHD manifests in her... One of many possible ways, I guess.
It's just she fails to acknowledge it, so there are two sides. Of the same story. While, in fact, there is still only one story.
It's trying To Find the Magic Line BigSurprise
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm glad that helps get some perspective and here's what I've discovered going back to your comment "I can't read minds". I can take what I said in the other post in this thread and use that as example or template to follow. I think if you can get the idea of using a "template" or "pattern" rather than trying to stab in the dark, this will help you a lot in narrowing things down? So...if you can picture that sliding scale from 0 to 100....and each person lives on that scale of ( pick topic or issue dejour lol )...and you got one person at the bottom of the messy scale like I was...and another person at the top of the messy scale...and there's this magic line where it becomes "not Okay with you" and really starts to get on your nerves or bug you within this gap or big disparagy....this is just your inate "preferance" of "likes" and "not likes" just like you might not like the certain taste of a food? Or you like a little mustard but not too much or it ruins your hot dog? LOL Okay....so you don't like much mustard but just a little...and she like a lot of mustard.....how does someone else know...how much is just right....when they like a whole lot? For the person with the excess or the one who doesn't mind a little or a whole lot and it';s all the same to them.....the person who wants just a "tiny bit" but not too much....is the only one who knows what that is? The other person line or range....is really big...and the others persons range or what is acceptable is really small? If you make the mistake in assuming, that everyone is just like you ( especially ) when you are the more particular one between the two? This is exactly what I ran into all the time with my wife, where she would go off this assumption that "everyone is like me"...and "everyone KNOWS, just how much is too much?" Well, when you like a whole lot of mustard...but your Okay with a little as well.....where is the line that tells you where that other person is....and when is it too much and then ruins the hot dog? If you can't read minds...to know where that range is or the precise amount or that perfect sweet spot....if you don't have that sweet spot...there is no way you can know? I don't know how many times...my wife is going off on something like this....and I sitting there waiting for her to finish and then I say..."I don't know what you are talking about? I can't read minds." And if you understand what I just said....you will understand that there is no way for me to know that if I'm the person at the bottom or in the mustard example....I like a whole lot or a little...it';s all the same to me? I don;t care, I'll take it anyway it comes and I'm just fine with it? And my wife, cannot get that through her head....that I am literally.....just fine with it? She'll put the mustard on the dog and say "is that Okay?". And with me it's "yep". "Are you sure? I could put more on?." "Yep" "Well, that would be too much for me, here let me take some off? " "Okay"......"It that Okay? I mean, did I take too much off?" "Yep and nope" "Well, which one is it? Yep or Nope?" "Yep"
Meanwhile...I'm starving!!! Just give me the damn hot dog will ya!! LOL I don't care!!!!! But now, have me try and find that same magic line that she is trying to find for me...as if I have one which I don't? See what I mean? I would have no way to know exactly that perfect sweet spot for her is.....because she is very picky and finicky about "too much" or "too little" and I long since stopped trying to surprise her or fix dinner for her and have it waiting on the table? She would immediately...walked it straight back into the kitchen and start tearing it all apart! LOL
And so to answer you question directly about driving to the wrong place instead of the place I was intending? Not very often....in fact only maybe a couple of times that I ever made it all the way to a completely different place....BUT, I will take an exit or turn....like I'm going towards another place...and realize right away what I did? And what I did, was go that way out of habit, yes indeed. That autopilot thing is both a good thing and a bad thing as far as having ADHD? Think of it like when you first learned to dirve? You had to get that whole coordinated thing going which really is a number of movements and cooridinated operations that you do seemlessly without even thinking about it after you;ve driven for a while? I can actually ( admittedely not advisable ) drive on the freeway, with my knees on the streering wheel, and use both hands to eat a sandwhich and still maintain my speed and keep in perfectly in the lane and stop if I had to all at the same time? When I have taken long road trips and I don't want to stop and pull over...I can do that indefinitely....in my sleep without a problem? But at first.....I could barely keep the car in between the lines and I was white knuckling the whole time? It has to do, with things you don;t do all the time, or you are doing once in a while...that is not repetative and habitual like that? Anytime I have to "think"....."now, what do I need to do next?" That's when I can';t keep track and "think"....if I have gotten that skill down pat like the driving example? If I can't do it in my sleep on "alpha brain wave" and just do it automatically without having to think ( like driving a car for me that is? ) then the whole time I'm not a newbie...who first got in to a car for the first time in my life and I have to tap all my concentration....just to do it, what ever it is? Trying to drive...and then trying to remember where I'm going....is one to many things to do at once since I don't have that down pat like that?
And just so you know......my mom and one sister ( mom is passed now ) had a lot of trouble driving and concentrating and they were both nervous drivers? My sister, is the person when you look over and see her...she is leaning forward right over the steering wheel....like as if...;.that exctra 6 inches closer to the road...helps her see things sooner. LOL You know, you seen those people before? All white knuckled wth both hands clenched on the wheel with their chin almost resting on the steering wheel? She is really really spatially challenged and she has a terrible time with directions. Horrible time with directions and she is nervous as all get out when she drives. It makes you nervous just riding with her and my mom was even worse. She would twitch and rub the steering wheel with her hands...and her nose would twitch ( like a rabbit ) in this kind of ritual thing she would do repetitively to calm her nerves I think? I would be there as a passenger when I was younger and I could kind of see her out of the corner of my eye..and she'd be twitching and rubbing the steering wheel , and doing the rabbit nose twitch thing the entire time!! LOL She was a very interactive driver and an insatiable back seat driver which drove every crazy. LOL
However...they were both so intently and hyperfocused on the driving with their body incantations to go with it....I can't remember them ever going to the wrong place because that's all they could do? You could't really talk to them to much, since they had you tuned out during that time?
I on the other hand.....like I said, am very relaxed and rather proficient in driving.....but, I get so auto-pilot....I will take an exit out of habit since I might go that way 10 times compared to the other turn to the left off the exit...instead of the right off the exit....maybe once in a few months? So I will do that where.....I'm in auto-pilot.....but that usually means it;s something I'm very comfortable with, and I don;t have to concentrate that hard to do it well? Like drviing a car.....which compared to my mom and my sister....I'm Mario Andretti? LOL So that's kind of the gist of that one...and how that works?
J
Auto-pilot
Submitted by BigSurprise on
That's a very interesting issue. We had a conversation some time ago with my SO, and please remember that she's still not fully diagnosed, so she's just trying to get used to the concept. Not that she's read much, so it's rather "how I imagine the problem". But she's trying.
She told me she was so focused on the things that needed focus, that when she doesn't feel the need to focus, she just relaxes, because things "like finding the TP" aren't the essence of life. I tried to explain that I don't consider the toilet paper to be the essence of life either, and I don't think we need excessive focus on it, but there comes a point where her inability to find it, combined with dozens of other "unimportant" issues that aren't "a matter of life and death", might become a burden for me. And that her lack of focus on the unimportant things seems to dominate over the important things. And that it really doesn't require all the attention in the world, just the right amount to complete the task - in this case, find it in under 5 minutes. It's right above the sink, in the only cabinet we have in the toilet, btw.
Chevron......The Boy Who Cried Wolf Here
Submitted by kellyj on
I don't want to run over the same ground twice, and I'm sitting here ( laughing to myself ) when I heard you say the usual accusation leveled against the frustration of the nons with messiness is that they're anal compulsive or idiotically rigid. How I wish, for those days again!! LOL My worst nightmare, was actually ending up with a "real" obsessive compulsive person but automatically....that might get discounted after you saying this very thing? Let me say...there is a difference between "fastidious" and "exacting". Or....someone who likes a neat and orderly house....compared to a "perfectionist". I can clearly see the difference so if I were to say that now, as I have about my wife....I'd equate "anal retentive compusive "....to "exacting / perfectionism"....not, a fastidious person who likes things very neat and orderly? So one might be on the high end of the average range ....the latter....and one is off the scale entirely which comes right down to "Not Being Okay and having a major problem....if things are "perfectly organized, "pristine" ( like a show room ....un-lived in looking ) and having plastic on the lamp shades and plastic carpet runners all over the house? I had a friend whose mom was like that and you had to "stay on the path" and not go "outside the lines" with her? I think that pretty much sums up the difference ( now ) as I really can see there is one? I've had to shift my perception or attitude from what you said originally (which was true for me too )....to this more accurate version of the "upper end of the scale". The lower end of the scale...one might equate to a college dorm room with a bunch of college kids living there just to paint the other side of the picture? The perfectionist / exacting obsessive person....is a few step off the chart entirely which so very few people really are that way as I've found? And just stating, that the perception or the comment you made is exactly right I think? From that perspective.....anyone at the upper end ( or maybe even 60 and above)....might ALL FALL INTO THE SAME CATEGORY starting from 10 or 20.....and this simply is not true.
I also wanted to mention something here that I personally have run into going the other way now....as I have come to really understand and learn this myself. Despite the fact that I make messes easily and all the reason why which you said you already have heard before.......being an Artist, I use "tools of the trade". Like a Chef in the kitchen....there are kitchen "untensils and tools" you need to cook with? I have found this to be so true and so frustrating on the other end of this? People, who do not use their hands, do not "make things" by hand ....who do not :"sew" or make "products" or "produce things"....and tend to be what I call "button pushers" ( electronic gadgets, video games, high tech devises ) as the only "things" they use on a daily basis or at all in fact....appaar to have no concept of actually doing something like this...and the sheer amount ( or number ) of: tools, fasteners, materials, waste products, machines, jigs, holding devises, clamps, measureing stations, set up areas, dy fit areas, glue and paint areas, heating devises, chemical compounds, chemical bottles and chemicals, blah blah blah. The sheer number, of different "items" I need, use and actually re-use over and over in a single 8 hour day is staggering to me at times? I use to clean my bench top at the biggining of the day ( with o things on it ) and by the end of the day and by the end of just one project.....I had pulled out literally hundereds of items ( in the work I did as a diamond setter and jeweler ) just to make one peice start to finish. I am not exagerating either. Over 100 different tools and different "ITEMS" were needed to do just "one ring". I came to the conclusion early on....that if I wanted to a clean work area.....I would have spent nearly 1/3 of my day, trying to keep it that way with pulling it out....putting it away......pulling it out....l.putting it away.....to the point, that I worked with a guy like that...and he was finally fired for being "too slow" and not productive enough? On the other hand.....I was the fastest person and most productive person in the shop....but my bench was a mess? I got a raise...and he got fired? So you see......there is a time and place for everything....and each and every perspective you can find the pro's and the con's in?
This thing with people who do not work in this type of job however.....where literally 100's of different tools can be in use at any given time I've found.....are the very ones who have the most problem with it....since they have no concept of that plus....it would drive them crazy to have that much "stuff out" all at one time? These two worlds.....just appear to me as completely not compatible? No one is right and no one is wrong.....not compatable, is the best word I can use?
Ironically, I've spent the last three years buildking and putting my shop together ( out of sight out of mind for my wife )....and now she's leaving, just when I get to the finish line so she won't have to deal with seeing or being exposed to any of this stuff. Right at the finish line and all that work I put in to "make her happy"....she pulls the plug and says I can't do this.....and she never got a chance to see how it would be once I am finished which I stopped trying to finish when she started saying "I'm outa here" No matter how hard and fast I worked to get there....it really didn't matter after all since I guess, that was not really the problem after all? It was just "one" of a long list, that is 'too long to name". I think this is true however though? The more exacting and perfecting you get.....the more each and every thing like this will bother you? The closer you get to perfect.....the more "number of things" that you will find "unacceptable"...and the same goes in the other direction to the point....where these things just don't "bug you " that much? It is all on the sliding scale I think? From one extreme...to the other......and the amount of things that "bug you" ....or ...."not bug you"......depending on where you are on the scale from 0 to 100....if you were to use that as a way to determine it? A person at the 100 mark.....will have 100 things "bug them" if they are not "in order". And the same thing goes in other direction? A 0 ...on the "neat and tidy scale" ....won't be "bugged" at all? And everyone lives...somewhere on this scale and you could put a number on it....to see how you compare? I was like a 25...and my wife is like a 95.....just to show you just how far apart we really are? And I am....not nearly as "up tight" and "tightly wound" as she is...on the same scale of measure in comparison?
I've since moved from 25 to about 75 or even 80...and have adopted and followed her lead....and as she appears to me...she has moved maybe fom 95 to 90....and she thinks this is a very long way and a very big deal, to move that far in comparison. To the point. that she can't live with that.....90 is already....more than she can deal with and she moved hardly at all....in comparison?
J
: D I wondered whether or not you would show up
Submitted by Chevron on
...regarding this topic, J. First of all, my impression of you from what you've written over time about how you do things, and keep your workshop, is that you have your own way of organizing things.
: D second of all, I don't post everything that I think about what I read here, by far, and I have thought a ton of thoughts about your description of the back and forth between you and your wife. I have a Cardinal Rule for myself not to judge a person I haven't met and only know through someone else's description of her, and then fob my judgement of a person, so just know that I read you. I always hope that two people find a way forward to sharing good life together.
yep, I know the difference between sufficient order and regularity that people in a household can sleep, can have a sense of knowing what's going on at home, shelter and food are in good shape, the debts aren't piling up, the children, if there are kids, are cared for well, and there's cooperation between the adults in the group; versus a neat freak, what I called anal compulsive, I think. There were two old maid sisters who lived across the street from me who kept a house with those plastic runners on their baby blue carpet on which they required guests to walk, and had plastic covers on their lamps in the living room, and I think if I remember, kept covers on the couches in the living rooms which they'd whip off when guests came to visit. It was their house and they did it theirrr waaay...but talk about the joy juice being left at the front door. So yes, I know perfectionist. Do remember the two TV characters called Felix and Oscar? I have a Felix squared friend....
What you talk about, sort of calibrating yourself, in habit change at least toward the needs of your partner, and I should think your partner needs to dial her dealing with things at home somewhat toward your ways of doing it is something good, I think. People are not the same.
Just chitchatting here: that thing with implements in the kitchen. My beloved spouse can go through something like 4 skillets and 5 pot lids just sauteing a pair of sausages for us for dinner. It's a mystery to me. But then I've cooked in different world cuisines. Do you know who the REAL pot users are? Not you, unless you're doing this cuisine. It's the French. You cook zees two ingredients for 10 minutes in this let us say, double boiler, take it out, push it through a strainer, put eet in another little pot just ziss size and add in a couple of ingredients, reduce the sauce, stirring eet weeth a little special hollandaise wheep, paint it on something, who knows, a chicken or a pan of veggies, roll up something een a keetchen towel and pound it flat with the flat-pounder, take another lettle pot, use a special knife to choppy choppy something just zo,... the food comes out exquisite, if you can make it through their recipe marathon, but just turn around and look in the sink. Les Frenchies put my husband to shame, and would likely you too, if we're talking about pot and tool use.
My beeg question to you is: who cleans up after the cooking happens in your house? Don't answer that, I don't care, I just care who cleans up at mine, which is me. Does it ALL get cleaned up after, and before the lights go out and people go bed? French cooking is Une Challenge for that. A dishwasher can only take so much and takes about a half a year to do its cycle. You don't have to answer that one. Me, I don't care too much about the after clean up....glasses don't get broken if I'm the one to load the dishwasher, and it's my thing, I'm takign care of my morning peace of mind: I don't want to get up the next a.m., stumble out for coffee and look at a pile of greasy dishes. I like a somewhat more lovely beginning of the day. So I do clean up after. All of the little Frenchy strainers and wheeps.
I wish you two well, J, you know that. You also know that I know you're going to keep inching on up toward better everywhere you can in your life.
Thank You Chevron........And To B , I'm Getting A Picture
Submitted by kellyj on
of the kinds of questions and real answers you are looking for, and even taking what Chevron said to me.....I can use that for a start. If I had not really learned, or had a good reason or need to learn ( past ) many of my ADHD symptoms....I may not have had a need or even been all that motivated to become better or improve on them which would have kind of left me exactly where I was? At the beginning. And this is so true for any symptom that I did not address head on and work my way through them one by one over time? Chevrons comment to me about having my own way of organizing, came from the need to do it ( as I was explaining the work I do that requires all those tools and / or.....specialty items like the French cooking example that Chevron used ) Yes, this is so true.....you can cook with one pot of pan, but if you were to make a specialty dish that require certain conditions ( high output stove etc ) to get those results....the dish just won't turn out the same as it would by using other tools to get there? So many times, the methods and the tools are the things that yield the different results....not just doing it differently using the same old pots and pans? That was a very good example and it is also very true? And if it;s just not important that you have these French dishes like that, and you're fine with grilled cheese sandwich....then all that "stuff" would be really not necessary....as long as grilled cheese sandwich are perfectly fine ( or anything simple like that ) and you don't need all those other pots and pans which do take up space and do create a mess each time you make a meal?
And within that example....I can say that I had to make some choices and I had to change a few things in order to accommodate the people I live with over the years. To the point....I had to give up something....to get something else simply put? And in fact, part of my "way" or organizing is making things extremely "simple" and "few steps" and "as few things"....as I could whittle it down to? I really had to chop and cut and eliminate a lot of things before, I felt I had to have....which really amounted to "wanting to have them"....but I could live fine without. Keeping with that idea or program....this idea of simplifying, and reducing the number of steps ( and work involved ) to do the same thing is really the answer here for me? No matter how many ways I suffled the deck of cards....if there are still 52 cards to deal with....the results are really about the same no matter how many times you shuffle the deck. The only way, to make it "better" as far as messes are concerned...is to get rid of the number of things, and decide what I really need and use all the time, or just "things" I like to have available....."in case" I need them? Those are the things, that I now put on the chopping block. The "in case I need them" items. I have found, that those "in case I need them" items....once they are gone.....I really never need anymore and can get along just fine without? If I really do need them again....I can make do with something else and get by just fine? It may not be exactly what it was, but the new need to do "without".....is a way of finding a new idea or a new skill....that I did not have before?
And what Chevron said is what I did adopt and use as my guide with my wife ( although we are kind of worlds apart in some ways that really are not compatible unless she were to dramatically change her outlook closer to mine about these things which is simply not going to work for her ) Having said that......I on the other hand, wanted to and needed to become more like her in the neat and tidy area.....and I did take her lead, and follow her and try and copy what she did as best I could. Out failure, was not due to the fact, that I did not come a very long way and successfully join her and follow along with her in take her lead as it was suggested? My absolute needs ( the few I had to actually live my life, do my job and do what I had to do ) clashed in kind of a head on collision....with these things that are SO vitally important to her....that there simply is not room to compromise for her coming from her side and I respect that need and I respect that I cannot say for her.....how important, or how not important those things are since they appear to be so very tied to her state of well being. But the fact that she "needs clean" ( even if obsessive ) is still not a bad goal for me and good for me to do.....even if not to the level which I really think is not healthy for her either?
The point being, any time you cannot compormise...or give up something...to get something else.....then that becomes a rigid block.....that prevent two people to move one direction or the other and come closer together? Moving towards being neater and tidier was and is only good thing for me? But try and convince someone who is "spotless" and live in an hermetically sealed environment....that "germ free", "dirt free" and a computer manfgr clean room....is not a healthy place to live? The problem is, while it may be healthy and gemr free......it is "sterile" and as Chevron said...."all the joy juice" or anything spontaneous is kind of killed and sucked out of the environment along with all the unwanted "germs" LOL And if you think about "walking on egg shells".....one might consider having to walk only on a 2 foot strip of plastic....in a 5 foot wide hallway......walking on egg shells or having to "stay inside the lines". To me, having to make sure not to step off the clear plastic carpet runner and actually step on the carpet itself....would very much be for me ..."having to walk on eggs shells" because that is so far outside of how I work or what I'm worried about....that now I have to worry about not stepping off the plastic....just so my shoes won't touch the carpet? For me, that is so restrictive and so "up tight"....that I can't do it....without developing some kind of complex now myself? The fear....or accidently going off the carpet runner....is now making me so self conscious and so worred and I'm now having all this anxiety....where there simply wats none before? If I can't just "live" in my own house...and just walk down the hall on the carpet...and then vacuum the carpet when it gets dirty......then I'd be a nervous wreck...which is just no way for me to live? I have to give up, perfect, dirt free carpets....and compromise to just vacuuming them when needed and call it good? And just walk down the halll in my house, and enjoy the comfort and feel of the carpet on my feet and be happy with that? If someone else.....has to have that to be Okay.....then I respect that, and there is nothing wrong with it......I just can't do that unless it would turn me into a nervous wreck and I'd be walking on egg shells just to walk down my own hallway in my own house? It just doesn't work for me, and I just can't do that? Someone has to move and some things have to "be cut out" completely.......and sometimes someone simply has to give up something altogether....there is no 1/2 of a "hallway in the house with a line drawn down the middle. One 1/2 with plastic...and the other side without? There is no compromise in those things and it's those things that are "blocks" that have to be addressed and talked about I think?
And as I found......for myself more than others......I had to be the one, to give up something more often than not? But by giving up something, I also found I had less to deal with and less to deal with is the answer...not just shuffling the deck over and over? On the side of the non-ADHD people here....."giving up things" is more weighted to those who have ADHD and for good reason. Less is better...and less is much more manageable. There is no working harder in that case which is not the answer there.
So when it comes to mess's....the real solution is to give up things and have less things to deal with? That's what I've come to know and it really is the best and fastest way to get rid of clutter. The process of elemination though, does take some time and it doesn't happen over night.
J
French cooking
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Wow, French cuisine is a great example. I was always amazed by how complex the recipes are, and always thought "is it really worth it"? I mean, some of those dishes are great, that's true. But the complexity, oh my... You can easily cook things exactly as delicious in a few simple steps, if you know what you're doing. And there's ways to develop and achieve new, unexpected and truly amazing flavors that don't require nearly as much effort as the French recipes.
But I think we both know a thing as simple as tea-making may seem like a really complex French recipe. It requires pots, cups, mugs, and the kettle needs to be filled with water first. But when you fill it with water, you actually have to remember to turn it on. Or put it on the stove. Then, you put some tea in a cup, after you find it, and that requires searching through all drawers and cupboards you have in the kitchen. Then, you put some tea in the mug. Then, you put some tea in a mug. Then, you realize you already have put some tea in a mug before. But that happens after you pour the water into both cups. But then there's not enough water in the kettle to fill both cups, so you refill it and wait till the water boils. 15 minutes later, you realize you've forgotten to turn the kettle on, so you do. Waiting for the water to boil, it turns out you put too much tea in both cups, so you take a strainer and sift it, and there's your essence. You can now dilute it to make your cup of tea, for which you need another cup. The upside is you now have enough essence to make another cup of tea, and then you can drink it after you finish the first. But it turns out you've put too much essence into the first cup, so you take another one and divide it equally, spilling the essence on the kitchen table. You notice you have spilled some tea, so you take a cloth and wipe the table, but then it turns out the water is cold again. Since you only like hot tea, you turn it on again, but then it turns out the essence went cold as well, so you take a pot, pour it all in and heat it.
I could go on. I won't. Does this sound like a French recipe? For me, it does. :)
And then, with the real cuisine, it generates 10x as many dirty dishes as it normally would, but the results are definitely not worth it. Because the potato puree is burnt (you kept prepared it meticulously, but kept too long on the stove while reheating), the sauce is curdled (sour cream doesn't like boiling for too long), the souflee didn't rise (you've forgotten to whip the whites), and the pastry is bland (just needs some salt, but you can't add it after you bake it).
EDIT: You feel you can save it all. The puree - you simply separate the burnt crust and serve the rest as "smoky potato mush". The sauce - you need to use a strainer, but that results in a perfectly good sauce and the curdles will be called a "delicious home-made cheese". The souffle is actually like an omelette, you just need to throw it on a pan and add an egg so that it all combines together. The pastry, hmm... Why not blend it in a blender and store it in a jar for later, since it's mostly flour, so it can be reused to make another pastry in the future, after you find the jar in your fridge 5 years later.
EDIT 2: I love my spouse's cooking, cos you never know what you're going to get. Most of it is barely edible, but I admire the creativity. And there's something truly sweet in her saying "I know you're a perfectionist and watch the clock when boiling eggs; I'm not as perfect when it comes to cuisine, so I was trying to achieve mid-boiled; they've been cooking for 50 minutes, but I think they're not that bad, you can still salvage some of the yolk". "And also, I've attempted to make a lovely tarte from that jar that's been sitting in the fridge, but it turns out it wasn't flour but raw rice".
Well, if you want it simple
Submitted by Chevron on
..in the kitchen...
I feel rather disqualified from discussion at the moment, because it's hotter than Hades here, I have no desire to cook, because there's a mountain of other stuff that needs doing.
Anyway, if you want to avoid an insane number of pots and kitchen splashes, cook Hindi. Poverty in the Indian continent being what it is, they do a lot of single pot, single heatsource cooking. The complexity comes from the 25 different spices they put into the pot.
Or gazpacho. You put everything in the blender and braap, there you have it, cold tomato soup for the refrigerator.
BigSurprise, I'm glad that you and the latest wave of new posters this week have come on the site.
I limit the number of dishes
Submitted by BigSurprise on
...to a minimum, when I cook. Also, I keep cleaning on the fly, so it never gets piled up.
As you know, for a good gazpacho, you need to peel the tomatoes. For that, you need a pot, a strainer and a kettle of boiling water. And so on. :D
Thank you for saying that, I'm really happy to be here. Hope my recent post provided some good entertainment. :)
I clean on the fly as I cook, too
Submitted by Chevron on
First, I've lived in too many tiny apartments to do otherwise, and second I'm the one in our house who cleans, so why put it all off?
...dont worry about venting. Many people have come on the site needing to say some things that their partner is unable to hear well, if their partner doesnt totally block on it, and that their friends cant believe at all. It's such a relief to find people who know what you're talking about, and are variously tackling better in their own lives. Fare forward, Big.
Happy cooking
Submitted by BigSurprise on
My experience, too. We come to complain and return stronger. Up and away, Chevron. :)
Good Discussion and Dialoge Here
Submitted by kellyj on
I can condense this down to some simple ideas and work from those as a base line. Cooking: The problem; you want this really great tasting dish, but you find that it''s not that simply to get those results and come to find all these different steps and processes, to end up with a single "great tasting dish". And as you described, if you do these steps out of order or in any different way and try and just throw these ingredients together without understanding 1) why, you have to do it this 2) you can't do one step out of order and you must do them each one ( seperately...each process to create say: you sause, or base sauce then adding in your herbs and flavorings, then say: consume beef stock ...but before you can have your beef stock, you have roast the bones,vegetabless and meat together and pull the meat off the bone, and then take your trimmings and bones and make your stock by simmering and reducing it down to create your beef stock in another pan. Meanwhile, you have to take your ( Miropoix: carrots, onion, celery not used in the stock ) and put them in a braising pan along with your meat....and you braise it for hours and reduce it down then combine it with your meat base, and add in any herbs or other bases like tomatoes....and cook all these things together for hours and hours until finally you have you meat Ragu. And once you have that, you can add it to pasta or mashed potatos and you've got a great taking Meat Ragu over : you pick of starch noodles or potatoes. And of course, you side dish of roasted vegetables that you saved from the original "roasting process" that you saved for the final presentation. Whew!! I just made myself hungry!!! This is how I make meat Ragu which I learned or was taught how by a friend of mine who is a chef? That, is right off the top of my head, and I do not need a recipe book to do it since I know how, why and each of these basic processes to produce the final product?
But then again....I know how to cook? Not just heat and serve.....but to take a bunch of raw ingredients I have laying around and put them together in these different bases and sauces and then finally put them together into a dish? I can vary the ingredients as far as the herbs and flavorings....but, I need the basic ingredients each and every time...and those are required or it simply won't work? If I don't have beef stock....I can't make Ragu. If I don't have the Miropoix....it really won't work? If all I got is beef and some herbs....then I might as well just throw it in the oven with what ever veggies I have like the potatoes and maybe onion....and put a little beer and V-8 juice and a bit of water and make a pot roast instead? Pot roast only needs one pan and doesn't need all those ingredients or process's and it still taste great......but it's not Meat Ragu?
And if I really have my heart set on pasta and meat and no sauce to work with, Chile out of a can, over spaghetti noodles makes a really great and cheap substitute to Spaghetti and tomato sauce....and I'm eating in a matter of minutes? One can of Chile, one pot, water and some spaghetti noodle? And if I really want to make that extra special....I can take my handy dandy pasta maker, and make some home made fresh Spagetti which combined with the Chile out of a can......you've got a very "Gourmet" type dish made of out Chile and it's still home made? And my pasta machine is the kind you just throw the ingredients in a hopper...and it turns it and kneads it and poops it out through a die and out comes pasta in a matter of minutes. A couple of eggs, water and flour ( and maybe some frozen thawed spinach optional ) and that is all you need?
And yes, like Chevron mentioned....cleaning as you go while you are waiting for one process to finish and making use of the down time in between....makes the entire thing come together at the end and you;ve already cleaned half the pots and pans and all you got left is the dishes you eat off of? ( and any untensils you use )
So here I am, a Man.....who has ADHD....and I can do this without a cook book....to the point....that I can "create" a new dish at will....or make a modified version with what I got if I don't have all the ingredients for one dish.....on the fly, I can make an alternative one that I may not have ever made before? Every time I make Meatloaf.....it is always different and I never write it down exactly...but almost always it tuns out well and taste really good?
But I know how to cook. And ..I've been cooking starting when I was still at home by helping and watching my mom? Eventually....you get it and you understand how it all works? Once you know how, you can create your own style and your own "dishes" by varying these things slightly.....but still always following the basic rules and the basic "must do's" and "must don'ts" and you know what those are?
Not only that....but I can take that same idea or concept...and apply it to other things as well? Not just cooking....but in essence.....any Artistic process ( that's Artistic not Autistic!! just making sure? LOL ) like this....to yield the same results? I can apply that to almost anything in fact...because as I have found.....that this idea or concept of different processes...and then combining them to another process....and then reducing it down to a final product and then combining them together....and the possibilities are endless? Understanding how this all works in one area.....becomes a kind of universal template.....to make use in other areas since they all have the same idea that you do things in a particular order....but there is a great deal of leeway....in the processes ( the indiviudal ones ) themselves? As long as you don't completely "break the rules" or these traditional standard practices......all you really need to know is the basic practices and understand each process.....once you understand that and how they combine and interact....you can create damn near anything? It's not "trial and error" when it comes to the basic processes. Those remain constant and are always the same?
And of course....cleaning as you go, and on the fly during the processes ( in between the processes of cooking ) can be added as just an additional step so that you are making good use of time? So at the end, when your done eating....all you have to do is wash the dishes off and put them into the dishwasher?
Or.....you can forget about all of that....an make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich or throw a TV dinner in the micro wave. Mostly, I won't go through all of that cooking just for me? It makes too big a mess, takes too much time and at the end by myself....I'd rather not work that hard just for me? If I was cooking for a family or group....then that would be different. Plain old spaghetti and Chile out of a can....takes about 10 munites and there isn't any mess to clean up and it taste almost as good...to the point it's just fine with me. I also still like Corn Dogs too. Just because I'm an adult, doesn't mean I stopped liking Corn Dogs and you can't get any easier than turning the oven on and pulling them out of a box in the freezer. Some might say that Corn Dogs are bad for you...or they are "kid food" or have no nutritional value? I say ...."screw it"!!! I like Corn Dogs......I also like home made Meat Ragu. I can do both....or one of the other and it's all the same to me? ( as long as I don't live on Corn Dogs ) I see nothing wrong with them either?
The fact is, I've been doing all my cooking since I was in college and even before that ( learning from my mom ) I can cook you anything and make any dish you want since I know how to cook...and I will say, I'm a pretty darn good one. No one seems to complain? LOL And if there is a point here ( not the one on top of my head )....is I'm not picky. I'll eat what I got and I like a wide variety of foods including peanut butter qnd jelly sandwiches too. If i'm hungry and it's food....I'll usually find something I can make or eat in the kitchen as long as it's there. I'm basically a Human Grabage disposal.....I'll accept anything ( almost ) except for Water Melon. I don't like Water Melon and most people think I'm crazy when I say that? I don't think crazy has anything to do with it, I'm not picky.....I just don;t like Water Melon? Go figure?
But then again.....I could apply that to a lot of things? I was....as a kid, like "Mikey" on the commercial. "Hey.....lets give it to Mikey and see if he will ( do it ) or eat it. He will eat ( or do ) anything?" Yes!!! That was me and I guess that still applies to this day? LOL ( in a more adult version of course ) That....I was just born like, no one needed to twist my arm there for sure? Like riding my Tricycle down the stairs when my Mon said "we're going to go down stairs now". I was just saving her the trouble of having to carry my Trike down the stairs!!! ( not really but I could use that as a rationalization though? )
You will never learn, unless you try, then see what happens when you do.....I guess that's really the point? No try....only do. You will learn while your doing it...but it take a lot of tries to get it down right over time. No try....no do. No do....no learning. That is why you fail. ( as Yoda said )
Enabling...is a death sentence with ADHD.
J
So is this togetherness?
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Chevron,
Please find my new thread here: https://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/living-together-separately
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough about our arrangement earlier. Everything you said remains as valid as it was; and nothing I said contradicts reality.
Just needed time to describe the actual setup.
BigSurprise...They live open ended.....
Submitted by c ur self on
Everything you state here is exactly what I deal with, everything and then some....TWINS....
Their minds are incapable of organization, even at a level to decide what is garbage, and what is not.....Their minds are incapable of living and performing life functions in complete circles...They have no ability to look around, (they are driven by instinct, and habit....Eat...Mate...Survival / territorial instinct...)....We all are, but, most responsible adults live in complete circles....example:...Make a sandwich....Get the mayo, mustard, lettuce, tomato, cheese and bread laid out, prepare the sandwich and place it on a plate (cut if you like it cut)....Put the lettuce tomato mustard and mayo back in the frig...Put the wrap tie back on the bread and put it in its place....30 or 45 seconds maybe?...clean up any mess, set down an enjoy your lunch....Finish, lunch look around and make sure you have left the kitchen like you found it...Ready for the next time you or your spouse wants to use the area...This example is the same for every room and every small project of life..(Just responsible living)....There is no ability for this to happen w/ a mind who drags out all the stuff makes the sandwich and that is where there circle STOPS (instinct overrides awareness) They have no ability to look around, no ability to look back before they leave a room....Those skills never developed in their minds.....(I've never witnessed an ability for her to put herself in others shoes, It's my way, or, I'm a victim) This type mind, must work very hard to form habits beyond their ability to think about it... .(Just like you teach children...Nope...Your not ready for school or bed, go brush your teeth, go make your bed)...But since they are adults and deserve respected, we can only attempt to modify their behavior w/ Pray, Love, boundaries, and being an example...It is very difficult on both parties to work this out with just the two spouses....She is offended (her pride and desire to feel good about her self, and her desire to feel loved and accepted by you) by your pointing out this intrusive life style... This type mind can see and comprehend from visual examples, but, the offense's usually stop the learning process....It's not in their capability to naturally hear, agree, and change....(that's why it continues to happen daily)....
If you speak three sentences of German to me, with expectations that I will hear you, and understand you, like I would if you were speaking English, then you are going to be disappointed and frustrated because of those unrealistic expectations...That is what we are doing, when we tell or expect our wives to live in complete circles....
Their is nothing wrong w/ you asking (seeking information) how do I find a way to live with her in an understanding way, w/o being destroyed by the fall out her behaviors....That is what we are all here for I hope!...opportunities to learn what has worked for others...
I've found it must be a life of acceptance of her reality first... It don't not matter if I agree, or what I think about it, it's about, what is happening right in front of my face daily.....(this saves me from placing unrealistic expectations, that she couldn't live up to start with) Then set boundaries...We don't share finances....Her side of the bedroom is a night mare to me..Her dresser is covered, (she covers every flat space, counters, bars, table and floor, if I would allow it...More boundaries!) drawers packed w/ old junk to the point they want close, storage bins, piles of clothes on top of the bins...(50 pair of flip flops LOL, there everywhere) She has a littered little trail to get into bed because of her reality...(it would be that way no matter who her husband was or if she didn't have one....Reality!....My side of the bedroom is usually clean and organized; usually:)....The boundary in the bedroom, is she can never place any item or items on my side of the bedroom or in the walk path to the bathroom, if she does I throw it on her side of the bed or top of her pile....She knows the boundary...I don't care if she don't like it, that is just tough love....She will have to respect it...I can't allow her or myself to take my focus off of loving her, (my responsibilities as her husband) and place it on my disdain for her life style....I can leave or I can set boundaries, and be responsible as a husband...But I can never enable or live angry and bitter...Been there, and will never return....Living alone is a piece of cake to bitter spirit....
My wife loves to control, she will tell you how to drive, and which way to go,, and what lane to get in...And if I ignore it, she gets emotional and blurts out all the problems I have, because I refuse to obey her commands....Denial, Control....They go hand in hand...If I ignore her and just be quiet....When the last voice heard was her own angry outburst, she is capable hearing that, most of the time....She will even apologize on occasion...:)...But if I pile in there and make her crap (her internal conflict) my own, by pointing it out...usually with my negative emotion...She won....A mind in denial...always wins....If you try to fix it....
I have come up with a new definition for Adult Denial...."Adult Denial is caused when a person never gets potty trained in behavior ownership and self awareness"
Self-Discipline isn't a skill my 20 month old grandson has learned....And it's the least of my 56 year old wives virtues also....
The reason I am learning to maneuver life with more peace these days is....Because I don't expect any more self discipline from the 56 year old Angel as I do from the 20 month old Angel....
C
Hi smd1409...Nice post....
Submitted by c ur self on
(For example, listening to her problems and getting her to reveal them might give them incentive to try to improve themselves more. Just something to consider for those with ADHD wives.)
This is a nice comment about being understanding; Patient and Kind....And I know it will work for those who's wives are capable of seeing their selves, and talking about their realities...But that's the problem with those of us who's spouses live in denial....They have no problems...But their spouse, children, co-workers, neighbors or any other person that thinks she should be accountable is always the problem...
I noticed a post below that was entitled "I don't think there is a solution"....I disagree...There are solutions to relationship problems, but, we have to keep all (legal :), alternatives on the table...I lived 9 years with divorce off of the table....She held me hostage because of my faith...(I hate divorce)...But, a mind in denial will always look for the loop hole...(any easy way, to not see the person in the mirror) She has never shown as much thought about her words and actions since I put all options back on the table....
But you are right...Being kind; caring and able to hear them is very important....
C
c ur self,
Submitted by BigSurprise on
c ur self,
I saw you referring to my post and thought it wise to clarify. I'm not saying there are no ways to deal with those problems. I should have said "remedy". There's no magic cure, no silver bullet.
Also, I meant this particular problem, in my particular situation. I'm not saying it's not worth the effort in general. I'm saying trying to address separate issues one at a time, or all the the same time, seems like a wasted effort. You need to reach through, very deeply, to identify the underlying issue. You need to name it. The name is ADHD. And then, maybe, there's hope.
My problem is, my patience as the non-ADHD partner is usually interpreted as acceptance of the very phenomenon. I mean, as if I have no trouble with it. I do have trouble, and it does disturb me, and it does influence my life in a very negative way. If I react with negativity, I'm the aggressor. If I react with understanding, I'm the enabler. That's one way those loopholes work.
I have been patient beyond any level I could have had imagined before. I guess maybe it's a matter of how understanding the ADHD spouse is. Because if we both accept some basic facts, the fact a given phenomenon has occured, then we can talk about it and try to find a valid solution for the future. That's hope.
I hear you BigSurprise
Submitted by c ur self on
I really hope your GF can attain to that level of acceptance of her ADHD and discuss it openly for what it is....I truly do (many on this forum can do just that)...Just don't allow yourself to stake your emotional and physiological health on the outcome of that you hope for...
C
Hmm...
Submitted by smd1409 on
Hi c ur self,
Have you ever tried reading 'In Sheep's Clothing' (George Simon, PhD, international bestseller)? It's a book about how to deal with (covert) aggressive/manipulative types of people. From what I've seen of your comments this book might be helpful to you. You're right, there are some who deny and will not let go of it no matter how hard you try to make them see, though they are still those who deny because of a lack of knowledge. For the latter, you can convince them through the original option (convince them that their faults are real) but for the former, it's best to take control of the situation yourself which is what this book is for.
In this case I really don't think you can do much more on your side with her possible denial (I'm some random guy typing on a tablet about a stranger's situation, I'm never going to come to proper conclusions about someone's life, which I why I say possible denial), which is why I'm suggesting this.
There are certain types of people who relish having things go their way and reaching goals no matter what damage is made. These people require a different sort of approach other than making them see. What makes it easy to tell who these people are is because they still have certain traits and tactics which you can look for. One tactic is to deny something ever happened, another is to lie, another is to evade (answering a question improperly for example) and divert attention from the subject, another is to use anger to stop someone from continuing, minimising a problem etc. When these sorts of tactics are used by a person of this sort of personality (reaching a goal without care of the consequences on others), telling them they are wrong and trying to get them to listen is not going to work, so this book gives you advice on how to get them to listen and to put up with these types better (rather than solving it or removing them because it isn't possible, at least these days).
It sounds like you could really use this book to be honest, whether or not your wife is of this type. If she is, I'm not saying she is a bad person, rather she has a different mindset (which is actually now becoming if not already the norm) which needs to be dealt with differently and that the approach stated in the book along with your own personality (from what I've seen) might help you make your marriage work better.
May Allah make everything work out for you in this life and after.
Thank you! smd 1409 :)
Submitted by c ur self on
It's just very tiring...After 9 years of asking her to care, and be responsible I'm just tired....A man shouldn't have to remind his wife that she should being doing wife stuff, honoring her vows...Just doing the work as Chevy said...LOL...After 9 years of no effort coming back....I'm just brunt out...I told one of our grown children the other day that I asked her to move out...Because I was tired of her being only happy when she was running the roads doing as she pleases.....And a down cast miserable victim when confronted w/ the responsibilities of her marriage....I was a little shocked at her reply...She looked strait at me and said good, you've been a door mate for 9 years....I don't know why I was shocked, all 4 of them probably feel the same way...I know many of our friends and church family feel similar....There not blind....
And everyone of those 4 children Love her...And everyone of those family and friends..Love her....But they also know based her comments and life style...There isn't any way to have a healthy attachment with someone who refuses to discipline themselves...Who has no honor for her role in life and her marriage.....If you hate being a wife or husband and are offended by the call on your life, and the vows you took...It's a certainty that you will never be one....
Yep...I'm tired....She has worn me out...ugh!
But I'm no victim, and have much to be thankful for...She can't steal my peace and joy, because it don't come from her.. PTL...
Blessings
I will take down the book title and stop in Barnes and noble and check it out...
C
C and SMD 1409
Submitted by kellyj on
What smd1409 said is really it in a nut shell and this opening comment really sums it up well: It's a book about how to deal with (covert) aggressive/manipulative types of people. From what I've seen of your comments this book might be helpful to you. You're right, there are some who deny and will not let go of it no matter how hard you try to make them see, though they are still those who deny because of a lack of knowledge. For the latter, you can convince them through the original option (convince them that their faults are real) but for the former, it's best to take control of the situation yourself which is what this book is for.
There is something I haven't said her before, but I personally have been fully aware of this as a side "challenge" or something I kind of needed to do, but still having an open mind but with a good deal of understanding what the potential was for success or failure? Having grown up, in an environment with one of these people......they do tend to dominate and control everything and use a variety of techniques and tactics to get their way? The word "manipulation" is the key word in all of this and each and every person like this...seems to have their own personal MO....in order to use it to get what they want? Without judgment or without making these people the "villains" of the story here......if you took us all and went back to the beginning in our childhoods.....these people I might guess....started out the same as everyone else and were not this way from the start? This was a learned thing...and they you learn by adapting or learning the best or fastest way to get what you need as a child, with what you have to work with? These techniques and tactics...are the compliment or compensating adaptive strategies needed in that particular situation....although my feelings are.....these tactics and methods actually in a normal situation , would not go unchecked and not go without consequences usually imposed on them by their parents for obvious reasons? If the parents never "forced" or imposed any consequences on their kids as a means to curtail these practices, or to the point....if these practices were NOT SUCCESSFUL in getting them what they needed.....then they wouldn't do it straight to the point? Somehow, and for what ever all the reasons there are......these methods became successful means....to get what these people wanted and it "worked for them" so therefore......that is what they learned to do? If it didn't work.....then they wouldn't;t do it simply put? And for those on the receiving end ...or the "short end of the stick"........they had to deal with the consequences of "these people having no consequences" and take the fall out or have to suffer from these peoples failure to see how that is harming others at the same time? If you are on the "short end of the stick".....you are one of those people being harmed by it?
So...having said that.....I was that "guy"...or that "kid"....who did get the short end of the stick in this situation.....so undoing all that damage and healing and learning from it has been a life long struggle along with all my ADHD symptoms as well? It is in that same way.....that learning to cope and deal and go up against someone who takes advantage of others in this way....is a difficult thing to do, when they themselves don't even realize that this "method" or way of being is even a bad thing or harmful to others? All they can see....is what they get out of it and how it "works for them" to be this way? But now.....try and take that ability or those methods and techniques and tactics away from them? If that is all they got in their bag of tricks...to get what they want or need....then that is where their focus and learning and how they adapted came from....but now....try and take that from them and leave them with no other means?
This is not to demonize anyone who learned this way of surviving.....it is simply saying that from all the ways and different methods you can think of.....these or this method...is the one they learned that worked for them and that's really all they know? If anything else, which is a very cathartic experience for me to go through which was a very healing and validating thing for me to do....was go to head to head with this once again...but now with my eyes wide open...and without those judgments and preconceived notions about someone like this, and looking at them in a more compassionate way? Instead of hating on my wife and hating on her for what she learned and how she learned to survive.....I can say, that I can see the real human being in her that is and always has been there? And, can see the failure in what she learned and even see how she learned it....which is a very telling and also tragic story that goes along with it? Her tales of woe..and her perspective on this is simply, this is just how I am and there is nothing I can do about it? Feel sorry for me, I don't mean to do it, and I don;t mean to be this way?
Well, here;s what I have to say about that? I do feel sorry for what happened to her and I feel a great deal of frustration and actually a good deal of animosity towards the source of it which was her mother? But her mother is in the same boat and for the same reasons....became that way due to her parents failures and so on down the line? I can't blame her mother....since then I'd have to blame her mother....and then her mother before that in a never ending chain of blame and fault findking that never ends? And simply put......that is "their problem" from the get go? It is and was that very thinking....that got my wife to this place right now...and none of that is her fault?
But....fault finding and blame put aside......my wife IS responsible and accountable, for everything she does? She cannot use her childhood...as an excuse anymore since she is not a child? And the fact, that she cannot see the failure on her mothers part...and see what he mother did to her and the cause and effect of the entire chain of events and the "who done what?"......is something she either will look at and see...and then see the error in her own ways and just how heer entire methodology or manipulation techniques are wrong and hurtful. They are "wrong and bad"....until then....and until she sees this as "the problem"....then the problem will remain....and she will be the source of at least that much....which she is 100% responsible for? "Manipulation" as a "good" strategy....or even considered as a vialble means to get your needs met....is simply just "Fucked Up"....( pardon me ). But there is no other words that could describe that any better? No matter how you slice it, and no matter how many way you look at this from any angle or any possible means to use....and no matter what "they might say to the contrary or what they might use to describe it? THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY, ONLY ONE MEANS, AND ONLY ONE WAY TO DESCRIBE THIS BEHAVIOR OR METHOD OR TECHNIQUE. ONLY ONE WILL DO HERE........
"FUCKED UP"......There is NOT ONE POSITIVE THING YOU CAN SAY. NOT EVEN ONE. ON EVERY LEVEL AND IN EVERyWAY.........FUCKED UP, IS THE NAME-O......on that particular method or strategy and all the techniques involved?
So to make this clear and easy to understand. Are these people bad and evil and they are just FUCKED UP PEOPLE with no redeeming qualities what so ever? I don't think so. I think people are much more than that and they are not ALL BAD...either?
But.....the behaviour itself...and the methods and techniques and strategies being employed and used? I'd say.....they are ALL BAD, FUCKED UP AND HAVE NO REDEEMING QUALITIES WHAT SO EVER. But the fact, that these folks only learned one way and one method to get their needs met and this is all they got in their bag of tricks means....this is what they will do and keep on doing, until something stops them or stands in their way? And as I found with my wife....I was able to shut this down, and bock her off and strip her ability to do this away from her? And what happened then was she became depressed and despondent....and then her only solution was to leave? By successfully shutting her down, and stripping her of her ability to manipulate me in order to get what she needs or wants......she had nothing and no other ability at her disposal? Which left her with only one option? To leave...and go else where, where she can continue to emply the same techniques and methods and not have to learn any new ones simply put?
And at least one or even two good things came from this which is what I really wanted to share? What I got out of it....was a whole different perspective on my past and all those things that happened to me, and see all thos people in the past with a different set of eyes? It also showed me and taught me, that their are ways to shut these people down without going tit for tat...and becoming just like them and still maintain my integrity and self respect while I was at it? With great diffuculty I might add, but I got something out of it...and I learned a great deal for myself? It was an empowering thing and a cathartic process and there is nothing bad I can say about that in the end of it for me? There was a lesson, that I still needed to learn.....and I did learn it and now the lessen is learned and I know what I needed to know? That was all for me.....and it was what I needed at the end of it which was a needed....but not any more?
The lesson, will be repeated until it is learned. What makes you weak, will make you strong....if you learn it and stop chasing the dragons tail. In my case...I wasn't so much chasing the dragons tail....I just needed to learn how the fight the dragon head on? That is the bottom line, and the lesson I learned successfully which is worth the price of admission and then some for me personally. But in the story of the 3 Sons of the Emperor who were each called to come to the Emporer one by one....the 3rd son, who didn't open the door in the first place.....got to have the Emperors Throne the keys to Palace and inherited the Emperors kingdom at the end of the story. He learned to ride the Dragon and control it, not fight it or slay it ....That's what I got now, that I didn't have before?
J
Books smd1409
Submitted by c ur self on
When I left the gym today, I went to Barnes and Noble and read a couple of hours in a book on Bi-polar Disorder...It was quiet enlightening...There was a section there that compared it to PTSD, ADHD, IED and so on...My wife has some of the manic symptoms at times, w/ her ADHD, she also has some IED symptoms also....But not as violent as the book says can happen....She also can do the Depression thing....She has to open the window's and doors and get Sun light.....Who Knows?
They didn't have a copy of George Simon's book, they ordered it and will call me...I bought a book entitled "Change your Brain Change your life"....Daniel G. Amen, MD....It calls it the break through program for conquering Anxiety, Depression, Obsessiveness, Lack of Focus, Anger, and Memory Problems....Who know's it can't hurt....
I know for sure I deal w/ anxiety trying to live with my wife....Also when she gets mad at me for not enabling, and has an outburst...And I just stare at her and say that's ADD....She tells me I am bi-polar, and have ADHD....
C