I think part of the dynamic is when we, the partner without ADHD, imagines that if our partner with ADHD just LOVED us enough and RESPECTED us enough, it would act as some kind of motivator something akin to dopamine or adrenaline or something, to allow them to accomplish what they need to do in order to be good partners and stop torturing us. We imagine that love like a force that can propel them over their hurdles. When that doesn't happen we imagine they just don't love and respect us enough.
We also imagine that if our partners had any idea of how tormenting their ADHD is to us, how overwhelmingly frustrating and corrosive it is, again this would act as some kind of propellant to push them over the hurdles. So we vent our frustrations, but all that does is spur the RSD.
I understand that the ADHD brain works differently but what I still don't understand is why the rational mind with its understanding of consequences cannot, after 10000 incidences, not make a decision to override the ADHD behaviors for the sake of the relationship and the health and wellbeing of the supposedly loved person.
But of course the love itself probably gets worn out, right? Because everything gets corroded in the fighting and frustration.
there's a flip side to this idea
Submitted by alphabetdave on
When I read this I couldn't help but think that there's a parallel idea to this in my own experience, from the ADHD side. So parallel in some ways that I hope you don't mind, I'm going to adapt your first paragraph to what it often feels like from my side (disclaimer: none of this is necessarily accurate so much as it's an expression of feelings, and it might not correspond to every ADHDer's feelings either)
I think part of the dynamic is when we, the partner with ADHD, imagines that if our partner without ADHD just loved us enough and understood us enough, it would act as some kind of motivator to allow them to see that we're genuinely trying, show some affection and stop torturing us. We imagine that love like a force that can propel them over their hurdles. When that doesn't happen we imagine they just don't love and understand us enough.
On this basis so much of my effort goes into trying to explain my ADHD to my partner at times - not in the hope to be allowed to get away with treating her in a way that I shouldn't, but in the hope that understanding how this played into past dysfunctions might somehow heal the rift between us so we can start afresh - but it just doesn't work like that. Understanding my own ADHD and being understood by other people with ADHD has been incredible, and I like who I am with my ADHD friends, whereas I don't like the dysfunctional person I've been in my marriage. There's this hope that, if I can just get my wife to understand what my ADHD friends understand then I'd have access to be that same version of my marriage too, but it doesn't quite work like that.
In the same way I don't think love and respect - in the ADHD brain anyway, motivate us to the sort of behaviours you're trying to tease out of us either. I can't speak for everyone's ADHD partners but for myself - the love and respect is there. Another thing worth pointing out - again in my case, is I do realise how tormenting my ADHD behaviours can be. I forget at times, or intentionally distract myself, but I know - and I think in the early stages of a relationship, we can think the same thing too, that knowing something is an issue is enough to spur action. Except it doesn't spur consistent action from us. And then it comes up again, and again doesn't spur consistent action. Over time, if we never work out a strategy that works, all we learn is that our actions hurt you and there's not a lot we can do about it - it can feel helpless and that's rarely a recipe for better behaviour
Hope this makes some sense
Yes it certainly makes sense
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
And I see it in my husband. That is definitely how he feels.
Do you see what you're doing here?
Submitted by CANTGOBACK (not verified) on
I can't help but notice, you are beyond frustrated about why can't a rational mind, after 10000 incidences, not make a decision to override certain behaviors...
Why does this not apply to your own rational mind, and the decisions you make? Are you averse to seeing how you ignore consequences of your own choice to stubbornly insist and expect that someone's behavior will be different than it has, for 10000 incidents?
In spite of how frustrating things are, you are not and have never been a hostage to anything but your expectations. And when he fails to meet them, you choose your response, you do. 10000 times.
To those that have lost decades of their lives trying to get someone to change, there was always another choice. It doesn't mean it's simple, easy, pleasant, the perfect solution. There's a lot of trauma for kids involved, whether you stay or go... so that can be a tough one but ultimately, the tendency to caretake, tolerate what's intolerable, become a victim rather than separate and grieve and adjust... that's all choice at some point. And there are consequences for that choice, stay or go. Unfortunately, life serves up plenty of pain but we are rarely true victims. That's going to go over like a lead balloon , I know.
Well I already did take action
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
In my other posts I have described how actually I have just split with my husband and he has moved out. So this post of mine is really just me assessing what has happened over the past 13 years and trying to make sense of it.
The cognitive dissonance
Submitted by honestly on
is really hard to get over. I mean, between what seem like perfectly sensible expectations and the baffling response to them. It is genuinely hard to process that 'oh, that simple courtesy I asked for is not happening... still not happening... still not happening.' It can be genuinely hard to believe. That and the fact that people with ADHD often seem (anecdotally; I've observed this here and on other fora) to be attracted to/ have longer term relationships with/exploit people who have trouble knowing and asserting their boundaries. If, say, you're the child of a narcissist, it's wildly difficult to find or draw that line, and stand by it.
And this is my point
Submitted by CANTGOBACK (not verified) on
They have reasons, you have reasons. ADHD impacts the ability to do things that a "reasonable" person would do, and the Non has conditioning or psychological obstacles to doing what a "reasonable" person might do.
If the ADHD partner is alone responsible for recognizing and dealing with their issues that make a healthy partnership impossible, isn't is also true for the Non?
It is. Both partners have grave obstacles to being healthy and each one blames the other, insisting that the other improve themselves. The only way to personal health and stability is to look in the mirror and recognize what obstacles exist, and work on them. But as long as the focus is on the other person who is more "wrong" every time, who is the "one to blame" for one's predicament, the dysfunction continues.
If a person is conditioned to tolerate damaging behaviors, they will do it again and again until they work on their own psychology. It's not about blaming the non, or the adhd partner, It's about taking personal responsibility as an adult with dysfunctional traits.
Having no boundaries is not virtue
Submitted by CANTGOBACK (not verified) on
But, it seems that half of this painful, toxic dynamic positions themselves as morally superior, or more intelligent, or more adult, when really they are acting out scripts learned in childhood and not improved upon.
nobody said having no boundaries is a virtue.
Submitted by honestly on
I certainly never suggested that. It is a problem, it's horrible, and it's often part of what is recognised as an unhealthy dynamic between ADHD sufferers and their partners.
The first time I posted on this site, I got directed by Melissa to read up on boundaries. I took my medicine. I don't consider my own messedupness a virtue nor am I now ashamed of my failings. They're the result of my upbringing. I'm doing the work.
Boundaries have to be asserted somewhere, and the OP's boundaries were breached, and she acted. But she's still in distress and seeking answers, and I would hope that could be met with compassion.
But as I mentioned in another post, imho, it's not just about the self and work you do on the self, and work the other partner might do. It's about wider society, culture and the expectations we have internalised about relationships and behaviour. It is a huge amount to process and it takes people different amounts of time to do that, and I think that should be met with understanding.
Compassion can't challenge a narrative?
Submitted by CANTGOBACK (not verified) on
I disagree.
and
Submitted by honestly on
it's hard. And maybe we can show compassion, recognising how difficult and time consuming the work is to arrive at this understanding and self knowledge. And recognising too that it is not solely about the individual, but that that individual operates wihtin a wider society, a culture, and has absorbed established norms and expectations. And that these cultural or social expectations (of, say, patience towards loved ones, or that marriage requires 'work', or that if someone loves you, they listen to you) alongside one's own faults, can get in the way of understanding what is happening, and acting in one's own best interests.
Compassion
Submitted by CANTGOBACK (not verified) on
What it seems most here want is not to be challenged, and to meet any challenge with a call for compassion. However, there is nothing cruel in pointing out that it takes two, and that the path to freedom involves personal responsibility for one's circumstances. It may not be a welcome idea but it is valuable nonetheless, and anyone has a right to voice their opinions here.
I'll step back
Submitted by honestly on
because you're not really reading what I write. I have enough of not being listened to at home, and since I'm getting better at boundaries - bye.
The group think prevails
Submitted by CANTGOBACK (not verified) on
When a few unhappy people gather to vent, that's all they want to do. I will leave you all to it and I'm sure won't be missed. Good luck!
You come off like a troll
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
Maybe you need to consider how to communicate less aggressively.
on the flip side of this..
Submitted by alphabetdave on
on the flip side of this, again anecdotally - people with ADHD can often seem to end up in relationships with narcissists/abusive partners, precisely because of the fact that we're incredibly reactive people - and fundamentally what these people want is to be reacted to, rather than a healthy relationship where healthy needs are met
I don't imagine this describes the relationship of anyone here - I think forums for "survivors of ADHD relationships" are probably fairly unconsciously selective, in that they attract partners/ex partners of people with ADHD where a particular type of dysfunction has manifested - a common type of dysfunction certainly, but I think ADHDers get in many types of relationships both good and bad, just like neurotypicals do
Compassion
Submitted by Swedish coast on
Removed that comment on second thoughts
Abusive behavior
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
If it's group think to reject a notion that equates to "she was asking to be assaulted..." I'm a-ok with that. I won't speak for anyone but would guess most of the nons here have been emotionally abused for years. I count myself in that group fully. I don't consider my weak boundaries "half of a toxic dynamic" just like I don't consider a woman wearing a bustier deserving of assault. I think in most cases here, we're not just talking about a messy house. We're talking about lies, withholding, financial abuse and much more, hence the strong reaction and call for compassion. It's simply not two equal sides of a coin in many cases.
Anger, Frustration and ADHD
Submitted by ZijiZahn on
You've posed a brilliant question! I relate and have had a recent ah-ha that ties into the dopamine/adrenaline. Is it possible that we become tossed aside by our ADHD partners in their never ending search for that rush/hit? My partner seems to have turned to obsessive devotion to his dog, working on his boat, hiking, and masturbating to "feel joy and connection" . Where in the past he turned to me for conversation, connection, love making, date nights, mini vacations and dreaming of a future together. While he experiences me now as a critical ***** (edited) who dares to bring up issues, ask for behavioral changes. Another piece I've been wondering about is why my ADHD partner treats everyone else in kind, respectful ways and at times doesn't carry that over to me. I'm hoping our counselor can help us sort this out.
Just wondering ...
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
What kind of relationship does he have with his mother? I have a 2 for 2 history of partners who hate their mothers. I, as a woman, am clearly the stand-in for the mom. I notice they are able to be much better behaved with other people. My partner has ADHD and a lot of other issues as well ....
I’ve been a bad mom
Submitted by Swedish coast on
That is an interesting thought. I've actually dreamt at night my mother in law confronted me asking why I'd been such a terrible mother for her son. My shame was real. I have been a bad mother for my ex husband.
Totally worth the consideration
Submitted by Off the roller ... on
This too has come up for me. My spouse is VICIOUS about a female sibling (but never this way towards males) and I find that there are so many unresolved mummy-issues that it's so overwhelming to even try to figure out where to start with it....but at the same time, I'm the verbal punching bag for this as I'm the closest female to him. It SUCKS.
My husband adores his Mother
Submitted by shevrae on
In the last couple of years, my husband admitted that he wanted me to be all the "good" parts of his Mom (every idea he has is wonderful, doesn't look to him to get her own needs met, does a lot of the chores around him so he can focus on the work of . . . whatever he is doing at the time) but none of the "bad" parts (correction, pushing him to become a responsible adult). But also lots of sex! And he also admitted that he resented me from pretty early in our marriage for not meeting those expectations (we were "good Christian kids" who waited for marriage for sex, had very little sex education, and I experienced a lot of sexual pain for the first few years). He decided in the first week of our marriage he had made a terrible mistake because I didn't naturally do everything the way his Mother would have done it on our camping honeymoon. So yeah, I failed on all counts - thanks for letting me know after 20+ years. :(
That one hurts
Submitted by Swedish coast on
That is so awful. I hurt for you.
My ex also expected me to be his mom
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
My ex also adores his mom (so do I - she's a wonderful human), and he definitely expected me to fulfill gender roles of cooking, cleaning, parenting and caretaking. His dad has ADHD and his mom overfunctions big time, right down to telling him what to wear and eat. I didn't realize/see the root of the issue for years. I mistook her for being overbearing or controlling, but I see now that she adapted to survive with a husband with severe ADHD. She would not have seen divorce as an option (she's in her 80s, immigrated here when she was in her 30s). He is happy letting her control everything as long as he doesn't have to do any of the work.
I naturally did a lot of the cooking and cleaning despite working full time, blindly following my own learned gender roles in my 20s. However, on the other side I thought that in return, my husband might take care of the cars, household maintenance, painting, etc... only... that part stopped after the hyperfocus years. I did all that too. By the time I realized what ADHD was doing to our marriage, we had a child and I was stuck.
The funny thing is that he complains NOW about his mom doing everything while his dad does nothing and says his dad is wearing his mom out. I bite my tongue... how can he not see... this is exactly why WE'RE divorced.
Me too
Submitted by Photographyjunkie83 on
This sounds a lot like my marriage. My husband learned in January that he had been living with undiagnosed ADHD for 58 years. We've been married on 3 1/2 yrs.
We are currently in therapy, which just started. It took 7 weeks to get an appointment. I just want a sliver of hope that there are effective tools that he's also willing to try. I've read The ADHD Effect on Marriage while he read another book that he started in January. I encouraged him to read ADHD Effect on Marriage, too. It describes practical tools to use. After 6 weeks of him not turning a page, he tells me that he's tired of reading. I don't understand how difficult it is to spend 20 minutes on it. There are multiple symptoms plaguing our relationship and he "doesn't feel like reading." I am angry and beyond frustrated.
Be kind to yourself. Take care of you.