"Rejection sensitive dysphoria (RSD) is a condition that causes people to experience extreme emotional pain when they feel rejected, criticized, or fail. It's characterized by exaggerated reactions to rejection, such as:
Having negative self-talk
Having difficulty managing reactions
Having a constant need for validation
Adopting perfectionistic tendencies
Feeling embarrassed or self-conscious
Having low self-esteem and self-doubt
Having sudden outbursts of emotions like anger, tears, and sadness
RSD is often found in neurodivergent individuals, such as those with ADHD and Autism Spectrum Disorder. Some experts suspect that RSD is caused by differences in brain structure that make it difficult to regulate rejection-related emotions."
Here's where I disagree with the (some )experts. I may not be an expert, but I know what I know. And what I know, as the cause, at the source is: the sense of disconnect and not belonging. Belongingness...at the source.
"Belongingness is the human emotional need to be an accepted member of a group. Whether it is family, friends, co-workers, a religion, or something else, some people tend to have an 'inherent' desire to belong and be an important part of something greater than themselves. This implies a relationship that is greater than simple acquaintance or familiarity."
This is the vital need. This is the "thing", or lack of, that causes RSD, not a difference in brain structure.
I'm standing on that. I now see the pathway to reach my SO, despite her own self sabotaging ways that are preventing this from happening. Me too, for that matter. It's what I ultimately want and need from being with her. It's these insecure attachments and defenses standing in the way. Being accepted ( not inspite of ) but simply, for no other reason than "just because".
I think everyone needs to belong
Submitted by Swedish coast on
I think we all need to belong, and I think you're right.
To me, RSD has always looked like the end-stage frustration and grief of not being understood and connected.
I know I've felt just as strongly at times in the marriage and forced myself to speak gently words I wouldn't regret afterwards. My ex (and his relatives) couldn't. They just yelled whatever would hurt the most, flinging their arms and exposing their teeth, and afterwards neither could remember exactly what they'd said or understand they harmed relationships irreparably.
To me, that is RSD. Reaching an obstacle that can't be overcome, exploding emotionally, fighting ugly, causing harm and feeling you're the victim.
I used to do this as a child when provoked enough. Emotions were completely out of control. Even now, if I'm desperate enough, I can be frightening. It's about being desperate, isn't it?
Swedish...Think Pain
Submitted by J on
I've been reading up on this phenomenon as well as others things related. I stumbled across this idea and had a light bulb moment.
"Although the brain doesn't process emotional and physical pain exactly the same, the cascading events and regions activated ( in the brain ) are similar. This suggests that pain from diverse sources, physical and psychological, share an underlying felt structure."
So if I'm understanding this correctly, the brain doesn't necessarily distinguish what exactly is causing the pain...it just feels it intensely in terms of RSD. So following this train of thought...you feel intense pain, and immediately look to the "thing" that's causing it ( the trigger ) because it's a subjective feeling from a nondescript source.
"To me, that is RSD. Reaching an obstacle that can't be overcome, exploding emotionally, fighting ugly, causing harm and feeling you're the victim."
I'll reword what you just said: "reaching a pain level that can't be overcome, exploding emotionally, fighting ( or lashing out ) and causing harm to the source of this pain and feeling like a victim."
The victim part comes from feeling others ( or a person ) is hurting you...causing you this intense pain.
So the question becomes: is this other person really causing this pain? Or is it something else?
I'm postulating the feeling of rejection is really the feeling you've been cut off from the source. The source being: feeling cut off or ostracized from belonging to a group or person. Being shunned, perhaps, and left alone. On that level, it becomes an existential crisis...a threat, to the core of your very being.
On that level, thinking straight and logic and reason fly out the window...your in full on fight or flight mode for your very survival.
So is that a description of desperation? I'd say so wouldn't you?
I totally agree
Submitted by Swedish coast on
Yes, I second on that.
My husband probably saw me as the source of pain and lashed out - but all I had tried to do was calmly describe I needed his help because I was unhappy in our relationship. It didn't matter how softly I approached the subject. It always ended in him blowing up and me being even more traumatized.
This pattern is vicious. It's what kills trust, and marriage.
I'm connecting this to something else....
Submitted by J on
in terms of fearful avoidant attachment. ( thinking again about my SO ). From a fearful avoidant's perspective ( her ): She says, "I'm" too intense. But is that really true? Am "I" really so intense that she has to move away from me? Or is it, she's feeling intense fear, or nondescript feelings and emotions associated with intense discomfort and she's moving away from the "thing" that's causing her to feel these intense feelings?
Is it really me, or is it something else? Am I to blame for these feelings she's having, or is she feeling these feelings from a different source? In other words...am I really the source?
I won't argue that I can be intense. I also can't argue that when I'm feeling intense feelings ( of any kind ) that I don't express them in a passionate way. In fact, I do and will tend to express my feelings of closeness and intimacy in an overt manner. That much is true. But not every one I display that to ( in the past at least ) moves away from me when I do. In fact, some women in my past seemed to like it?
Back to fear of intimacy. Not so much...."you're too intense". I think this true as well.
PS She's complained about me being "demonstrative" in conjunction to being "too intense". She's referenced that in connection to me showing that I'm angry specifically. The problem isn't that I'm angry, the problem is that I'm showing it ( demonstrative ). Assuming I'm not blowing my lid and having a complete melt down. Any intense emotions will do it for her.
Swedish...
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
My ex-husband would fly into a rage and go on and on until I was cowering. It took everything for me not to burst into tears or break down.
The next day, it was like his memory had been wiped clean. If I displayed any kind of "attitude", he would ask me what my problem was. As if he didn't remember screaming at me, two inches away from my face.
I'm so sorry...
Submitted by J on
that you've had to go through that. That must have been traumatizing. I'm ashamed to admit that I've had my moments with rage however, different than what you described. I almost instantly regretted it right after it happened. I felt so ashamed and embarrassed, with those feelings staying with me for weeks sometimes. No amount of I'm sorry could ever take those back even though I tried. At no point that I can recall, ever completely forgetting those moments either immediately after or the next day. I can still remember many of those times now, years later. I can even remember what lead up to them, things that were said, and many of the particulars to this day. They're indelibly etched into my memory.
I agree with a lot of what you say here J....
Submitted by c ur self on
But the reason the outburst of emotion's surface so quickly and unexpectedly in my wife's case isn't the belonging...(She is loved by all family and friends, she can go off on)...It's the desire to attach belonging w/ control and manipulation... She will never not be someone who you must keep at arms length, not because you don't love her, but, because you do...When there is no ability lived out, to not demand self centered expectations of what needs to happen next, you better recognize it!!...With her, at that point she becomes emotionally unstable (volatile)...Which makes for giving in to her demands to control the proceedings, (what ever that might be in the moment (photo's, stopping at a store she suddenly demands, any time she thinks something should happen, no matter how the other person or group feels about it) either a must, or time to disengage, walk away, not be the target....Family can do that, they leave...Kid's and people easy to run over give in to demands... Spouse's going down the road out of town??....LOL....When I talk about boundaries, this is one of the main reason's why...Once you see the sane mind release itself to the bad spirit (demands, anger, threats, control) a person who loves you will get away from you, in order to not engage w/ words that can never be heard, and only feed the garbage they are spewing out....So boundaries to not travel together limits by a large percentage being exposed to out of control toxic realities...
No easy fix...carnally....
c
Different Types of Anger C
Submitted by J on
I know on the list of ADHD symptoms, the angry outbursts are right there on the list. This is something I've been working on trying to figure out. With me, I can generally tell you what I'm angry about even if it's blown out of scale. In other words, it is attached to something, not just out of the blue for no reason at all. And if asked, I can pretty much always tell you why I'm mad that makes some logical sense. One of the few times I've been angry lately, that even I was questioning myself, had to do with a severe side effect from the antidepressants I was on. It was even out of character for me which clued me in that something was wrong.
But as I read your comment, I was trying to find a word to best describe your wife as objectively as I can? The best word I came up with is "entitled " or "petulant " ( or both ? ) Entitled in: I want what I want and feel entitled to have it.
That's kind of an elusive reason to be angry...not necessary easy to pin down?
I can just imagine me, being confronted with me being angry and trying to explain that one! lol
And no, I don't think being entitled would be an easy one to fix?
Entitlement isn't it...
Submitted by c ur self on
It's deeper than entitlement...Entitlement is an on going state of thinking that will be there even when calm....Entitlement is rampant these days....Especially with many younger generation....Spoiled!....It's rejection sensitive dysphoria...She may end up in bed for 24 or more hours (depressive state) when she is told no (forced accountability) to something she felt strongly about...
I Had to go back.....
Submitted by J on
and reread some explanations of what RSD is again, because there's a qualitative difference between being told no and feeling rejected. It also mentioned being criticized in another article I read.
C, from everything I've read of yours concerning your wife, lack of accountability and taking responsibility are always present in what you share. Trying to explain this subjective difference is difficult which makes me have to think about how to explain it. I only know what it feels like, but it's almost like trying to describe the color red to a blind person. Just intuitively, I feel like two different concepts are being merged together because I keep wanting to separate them as I have to do with myself to know exactly I'm feeling at times.
All I can say for sure is this: from everything I've read so far, RSD is a part of having ADHD so it does fall under the category of not having a choice. That's not an excuse for not taking responsibility or being accountable. In those two things, you do have choices. Even what I'm currently doing with trying to find the right combination of meds, dealing with anger and doing things to be angry in the right way by communicating effectively while trying to keep it in scale to the thing that's happening is in effect, taking responsibility and making a concerted effort to be accountable including apologizing immediately when I recognize my failures and then trying to do something about it.
So, RSD is not really about being told no in a more subtle way...as in, not accepting no for an answer. It's more, the inability to control the feelings everyone feels when they experience rejection or criticism of some kind...with those feelings being amplified more than usual ....and taking things too personally at times....including the inability to process it in the moment when you should. ( not getting over it right away ).
I could say it this way. I don't over react to be told no or from dissapointmemt in general. Thats not what triggers RSD for me. What will trigger it, is if the "no" is a form of rejection, which sometimes it is, or can be.
And the depression is it's own animal. It is more the by product of RSD. Separate still, in a qualitative way.
In the space here, I don't have room to give all the details but, SO and I have had a turn around or shift in what's happening. It started with me becoming angry, and admittedly, I failed to keep control of it completely. Better than in the past, but still above an appropriate level. What came from that however, was productive discussion and communication and ultimately for both of us, owning up to our own parts of any issues we've been having in an honest way.
But not to get side tracked here. I'm feeling much better as well as my SO. We've reconnected in a substantial way which is having a snowball positive effect between us. I could go on, but my point is this: I may not be experiencing RSD at the moment from this "reconnecting" and ability to air our differences and communicate our needs....but....I'm still experiencing depression, as a completely separate entity. Which I'm aggressively going after, in my attempts to take responsibility for my end.
So, it's not an easy thing to describe, and has a conglomerate of parts all working together...but I can say that simply being told no, or not accepting no for an answer is not exactly, or directly associated with RSD? It could be, but not necessarily...if any of this made sense?
No and RSD....
Submitted by c ur self on
First we have to recognize that everyone of us even people w/ the same diagnosis are different...It's in no way fair to group people....(Sadly we do it for context when speaking about ADD and other brain functions that are medically labeled)....Some people are quiet good at being self-aware, as it relates to capturing their own thoughts and behaviors, even though this transparency might come after a negative out come...But, still, owning it, is a huge part of eliminating or greatly reducing it...(This is how your post lead me to think of you, you care)....
So in thinking about my wife's emotional reactions to not being able to control others in the moment, what would stop it? I think her outbursts come from just a faulty (or missing) view of life and people in general...She can go hours and days being the loudest happiest person on the planet as long as everything and everybody falls in to what is acceptable to HER desires...So what is that? What that is, is a total lack of respect for others and the whole of their lives, emotions, and desires for themselves....
example: So we head off to the water park w/ grand kids in toe...Me, her, two or three grand children...Hot Alabama weather, a few hours of water park fun...(She's right in the middle of it, loving it, and leading it, as her personality demands (Kids getting tired), I'm tired and have had enough...So I tell her let's wrap it up and get out of the sun in 20 minutes....She say's no, we are staying...Defiant spirit, no one matters but her...This isn't ADD, this is a total disrespect, for the life of others...(I don't care how it's labeled) I only care what it does to people and the relationship....And it's this way for every dopamine producing event...I insist, she loses it right in front of the kids, grabs one away from me, and runs buy them Ice cream...In that moment you either allow her to control everything about your life, or you walk off and leave her and the kids without a ride...Which any caring person would not do...Of course out of these toxic episodes comes more and more boundaries, and less and less togetherness....Until one day, you have this person who is demanding,and controlling when attempting to share in life with, so you realize you have become mostly two strangers....We finally are getting along, because between my boundaries, and her disdain for marital responsibility, we have nothing! So have a happy life, but, just leave! I'm more alone w/ you here, than I would be with you living else where...Any time **justified** self centeredness, or no respect for your spouse, children, or other people in general is a person's reality...That is an unsafe person who we do well to stay clear of....We can throw around labels all day...But the hell, pain and suffering is the same...
She doesn’t consider others
Submitted by Swedish coast on
In your waterpark example, your wife seems misguided by her impulses and unresponsive to the needs of others. It's unreasonable to not protect tired children from the sun.
And I totally get your unrewarding position - to leave and become the bad guy or stay and endure the stupid struggle. There are no good options. It's enough to make one dream of living alone.
I do hope she'll be moving out soon.
exactly....
Submitted by c ur self on
When impulses are driving a life, that life doesn't need to have authority over others...In the water park example no one else's life mattered in those moments...This is the number one reason an impulse driven person will always be unsafe in a marriage relationship...Usually a life (mind) that is driven by impulse's have other attributes that allow them to get by with this type behavior...In our case, my wife usually takes no thought concerning what the responsibilities of the rest of the day is to be...(like a 6 year old)...She places no expectations on herself to be an adult, if she has someone to dump that on...(me)...But will still be defiant and demanding like my example...It's always a no win to take part in any kind of entertainment event that she likes. It's always been an automatic for conflict...So when you refuse conflict, (hate it like I do) you have to place boundaries....
It's this way at all times w/her....When we have taken trips, she just throws her suitcase in the floor at the door on our return, and we step over it, (or I kick it out of the way) until she decides to drag it in her room...Then she might live out it for weeks, months, or until she packs again....While I come in and unpack my stuff, wash the dirty, and put everything away, and take care of anything at home...This dynamic and her continual justification of it, along w/ her defiant spirit are things I want miss....
Yes she needs to leave...I asked her yesterday (she left again this weekend to go hang out w/ her family in Atlanta, so she says) if she wanted me to start packing some of her stuff? (lots of junk, every closest)...She mumbled something about doing it herself.....I've very long suffer w/ her, which at this point I wll continue to do a bit longer....I would love for her to voluntarily move, before I file....I wanted our children and grand children to see minimal impact, for relationship sake...We have a loving family, and our grand babies love her....We all do....But, I'm burnt out, and I'm just done...I never thought I would be here....But, I guess we all have breaking points....
c
I really don't know what to say...
Submitted by J on
to this behavior? I don't have time to give your comment the justice it deserves...maybe I come back....but, yes....we're all very different even having ADHD. And I can't even to begin to imagine behaving that way. It's foreign to me, so I can't put a label on it other than purely self centered as you say. I immediately ask myself: how does someone, who's had any discipline in there upbringing or been taught any lessons in their childhood on the concepts of right or wrong in basic social behavior ever get to be that way? The only answer is they weren't? No one ever said no to them and they always got there way? I mean, you mentioned spoiled when I said entitled but, isn't that what entitled is? From your description, it sounds like at least that's part of it?
I never would have gotten away with that kind of behavior even as a child. Although, the lessons went too far the other way...I would have have mortified at the prospect of what kind of punishment I would have received!! In no uncertain term!! Lol
PS
Submitted by J on
As I remember it ( during the time I grew up ) ...not only did every child not get a trophy, you were lucky not to get a poke in the eye with a blunt stick for your troubles. Lol
Coming back here C....
Submitted by J on
I have a few minutes to share some recent events that I mentioned between my SO and I. The "reconnecting" I was talking about. I also mentioned I got angry, but it was very specific, and I made it really clear. I'd already mentioned the : parent child dynamic, the belittling, and more in general, her talking down to me and disrespectful attitude at times. What made this possible was a plea I'd made, pointing out that I don't do these things with her in fact, I reminded her in all the ways I build her up almost daily which is all true. If I hadn't been consistent in this one area....that is....showing her respect and never belittling her, this probably wouldn't have worked.
When I finally got mad at her for barking orders at me and again, taking down to me, I basically said "f#$k you" and told her to quit ordering me around, criticizing me and belittling me. This was out of the blue for her because I had chosen not to fight about it up until then. I did snap, and I did sucomb to the RSD. I guess the no sex combined with this kind of treatment was more than I could take plus...my meds were causing me to be irritable, edgy and feeling angry at the time. I've since changed meds.
Anyway, the important part is what happened afterwards a few days later. I gave her a whole bunch of space and was not bothering her. I went back to treating her in my usual way and being the opposite of "needy" and "insecure". The two things she hates most. While at work, she texted me that she really wanted us to stay together contingent on....she worked on her stuff and I work on mine. I understand this as...."but I also don't want to talk about it" which I read loud and clear and I agreed. That was the deal.
Since that day, there was a major shift and turn around. Her demeanor charged, she stopped belittling and criticizing, her mood and attitude changed and she's been nothing but respectful in her language and tone. She's asking instead of telling, she's been less controlling and getting off my back about every little thing. This in turn, has case me to be more relaxed and focused more on being consistent in the things she's asked. She's caught herself starting to say something, then, stopped and reworded things as she'll verbally note: that's "negative reinforcement" and said things differently.
So this not only proved she can do this, but without asking....someone got a hold of her and reminded her of things she already knows. I'm sure, 6 years of therapy didn't hurt, but that someone I know without asking is her son who she listens to. I'm sure her daughter in law chimed in without a doubt. Both of them are much more ADHD savvy that my SO which is also part of our problem at times.
Anyway, the change was dramatic and almost over night. And I've kept my end by not only not trying to talk about "things" but giving her all the space she needs including offering to help, jumping up to help when she asks ( not orders ) and telling her how much I appreciate what she's doing. And in turn, she also tells me how much she appreciates all the ways I help out and do things around the house.
This literally stopped the RSD feelings as soon as the belittling and criticizing stopped. Like over night. I'm not getting triggered and I not triggering her. Knowing what triggers her and doing what I can not to...is as important as knowing my own triggers and letting her know what they are. It took me getting mad....but I had already told her a number of times before so she wasn't hearing it for the first time.
So what this tells me is....if she really wants to, she can. And I can now model the behavior I'd like by doing the same with her. But again, most importantly C....she can do it, if she really wants to and if it's important to her. Over night in fact.
There's even more things she's done to show me she's willing to adjust but what ever was said to her by whomever....I'm glad they did. It had to come from someone but it doesn't really matter who, as long as she listened and understood.
Pathos
Submitted by J on
I remember being told, that the root of word pathetic, is pathos. I'm feeling angry ( again ) but at myself for being pathetic...or pathos....if you like. I was talking about something mundane with my SO last night, and she seemed annoyed. I didn't quite understand why, but I must have shown on my face that I wasn't happy. She even said, I've hurt your feelings haven't I? Not exactly hurt, but frustrated because I was getting that feeling ( once again ) I wasn't getting the entire story especially because her comment seemed like there was more to it. I finally dug it out of her that she was annoyed at my being a people pleaser...at least that's how she read it.
This is exactly the kind of thing I need to know and hear. How can you correct something if you don't know what it is!! errr
But it also told me one thing. These things are unattractive and that's the last thing I want to be since, with the effect of getting no sex, I'm already feeling unattractive enough.
It also really makes me mad knowing why this is. ( the people pleasing ) and the fact it makes me feel pathetic and that really pisses me off! I'm also getting the picture. Needy, insecure and now people pleaser are not the most flattering qualities. Who would be attracted to that!
Yet I also now....it's just a sign of how this dynamic works and the fact, that I've actually back slid far enough away from my earned secure back into insecure again. At least it shows to my SO. And if she can see it, then others can too. ( pathetic !! )
The only thing that makes me feel a little better, is the fact that I went online to hear testimonials of people who have been in romantic relationships with fearful avoidant people. Several made comments like " I was the most secure person you could find...even someone like me became anxious after a while "...or...." being within a fearful avoidant made me very insecure when I wasn't before". More or less, I read a number of comments like that.
I see this as good things to know. I also see this as areas to work on as well as reminding myself that this is once again....part of this anxious / avoidant dance. The only way around it for me is to stop being: insecure, needy, and a people pleaser in my behavior....especially around my SO. At least I know that insecure attachments can be changed.
And using the fact that even I think it's pathetic ( for me ) gives me that motivation I need to change. I'm only angry at myself and a little bit at how I got this way. This is NOT bringing my best self to the relationship either.
I also appreciate my SO being honest as well as me telling her how I felt. That a big step in the right direction. I also feel like I'll get more of what I want, if I continue down this path.
PS Another good reason to go after my depression. It's hard to be sexually attractive to a depressed person right? Also, my SO did mention I was lightening up since I've started making jokes about sex and other issues. That apparently is appreciated as well.
By the way C....
Submitted by J on
I heard the term "emotionally avoidant" used to describe the behavior of shying away, withdrawing ( or whatever ) from emotions, I'm assuming, that are painful or uncomfortable in some way. Instead of labeling a person as "avoidant" as in attachment theory...which sounds clinical and impersonal....Emotionally avoidant is just a description of someone who may avoid painful or intimate feelings because they cause a specific reaction that might be difficult to handle.
Anyway, I like that term better than "fearful avoidant" which is a label for sure. It's easier to show compassion when you see it that way instead.