Forum topic: Help with chores and communication

You are truly a very special person.  Gosh, I wish my hubby would agree to live in a separate house...hmmm...maybe that's a thought!  Congrats on your engagement!

Steph, that's just it. One of the most difficult things for me in understanding this disorder at all - in anyone - is distinguishing it from just plain ol' generalized anxiety or defensive narcissism.  In one of the posts here, Melissa linked an article by Dr. Hallowell that discusses the distinctions between attention deficit disorders and narcissism. I followed what Dr. H was saying in the article. I understood it. I most certainly saw those distinctions in my own husband.  But, at the same time, at no time have I ever suspected that my husband had something as extreme as Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  I'm not a psychologist, but I feel confident enough in saying that I am certain it isn't the case.

But narcissism can be present in someone's repeated patterns of behavior without them suffering something as extreme and permanent as a personality disorder.  Something like, for example what my own therapist suspects, attention deprivation in childhood can bring it on. Someone who did not receive supportive nurturing as a child can become a bottomless pit of narcissistic demands in adulthood, yet not be AS damaged as a personality disorder would make them.

Maybe there is a neurological dysfunction affecting attention ability present TOO, but I can't help but suspect that there are underlying psychological issues in the person who can seemingly SUDDENLY find focus and attention ability when it's all about themselves, their needs and their wants.

I say this as someone who does not have any kind of attention deficit disorder, but who used to be severely disorganized myself.  I used to neglect basic life skill tasks too. I used to also abdondon plans and tasks in the middle of them. But in my case, I could tell you exactly why I did in each significant case of abandonment or procrastination.   It boiled down to a lot of anger and situational depression stemming from my life circumstances up to that point.  There was resentment present. There was loneliness present.  And, yes, there was a LOT of narcissistic reaction present. I went to cognitive therapy. I was never prescribed medication for any chemical imbalance because none was ever suspected.  My life improved dramatically when I was able to analyze a lot of my own learned behaviors.

So, you probably relate to this too. When my husband shows no problem at all in finding tiny single datum bugs in 1,000 lines of code, but seemingly can never pay attention to how to get a dish CLEAN, I see a lot of my past self in the selective nature of the attention. It's especially reminescent of how I was when I was a teenager.

In comparison, I "get" the existence of disorders on the autism spectrum, for example. I believe fully that they exist. But, when you're around someone who has even just Aspberger's Syndrome, you see it immediately. Their behavior is out-of-step with that of most people at MOST ages.  And severe autism? You see it immediately. It is a set of behaviors that is abnormal at nearly ANY age.

But I confess to not "getting" a disorder that leads an adult to act in a way that is NOT abnormal for an 8 year old or even for a 16 year old.  The set of behaviors is just not that out of step. It just seems pathetically - and selfishly - immature.

I listen to my husband tell me what's happening in his head since diagnosis and medication came on the scene.  What is most unfortunate about this disorder is that those of us who do not have it, but deal daily with someone who does, is that we have no evidence of what is going on inside the head of an ADD/ADHD person.  We can see only the behaviors that are just NOT all that bizarre. We see behaviors that we would engage ourselves - if we were still children or teens.  We hear them identify desires to procrastinate tasks that anyone would consider unpleasant or boring.

What we cannot see or hear is what they are - or more accurately - not feeling at the time they decide to procrastinate or leave that task to someone else.

I have told my husband to try to keep this in mind at all times. When, or if, he says to himself "I'll leave that to do later", the REALITY of it is that he is actually saying "I'll leave that for HER to do."

He says he feels just awful when he thinks that way. I believe he does. But I can't go to the bank on his feelings inside his head. What I'm left with is the fact that the task has, once again, been left for me to do.

If you can't afford new socks, then there is a larger issue that of course must be taken into account and will affect how you handle your reponses.  Perhaps you can agree with him that if he loses socks he owes you something in return?  (money, time doing errands, a session learning how to do the laundry???). 

And, if the laundry is hard for you due to physical limitations, then it's time for your husband to start doing the laundry.  It won't take him six months to learn to do the laundry if you stop doing it.  Completely.  Have a conversation with him like the one I posted above about why it's important for you as a person and for your relationship that he take this on.  Give him a few pointers about delicates, separating the colors, them let him do it...his way.  The reason he'll get it in less than 6 months will be that he'll run out of socks and underwear, etc.  At that point, he'll learn the importance of doing the laundry in a reasonable time frame.  If he repeatedly runs out of socks, ask him if you can brainstorm some sort of reminder system.  Perhaps he can program his computer calendar to pop up a laundry reminder every Friday afternoon.  Or perhaps you can post a calendar on the fridge that has "laundry" on every Saturday.  You just need to get him to whatever his system is going to be, and (with the exception of setting up the reminder system if need be) that means letting him figure it out and not stepping into the void.

To help diminish the chances that you'll get colors mixed up and ruining other clothes, don't buy regular bleach (color safe only) and save up to purchase a 3-bin laundry sorter (Bed, Bath and Beyond used to have these - maybe $20?)  Whites in one area, reds the next, darks the next.  You can even marker these designations into the fabric.  Sorting into one of these can be kind of fun (like dunking baskets in BBall) and should help make him more successful.

At first, I would anticipate it won't be completely smooth.  So make sure to set aside stuff that you might need a week out if he doesn't do it in a timely fashion (i.e. make sure he runs out of underwear before you do!)  Perhaps the baby can use socks two days in a row (particularly if he isn't walking yet).

As long as you convince yourself that your other choice is for the laundry to get ruined you will continue to do your laundry.  You have to let go and give him the chance to take it over.  That's hard, I know, but ultimately (after perhaps some mishaps, perhaps none) he'll get it.

Also, if you can't afford new socks, look for opportunities to trade or get some for free.  For example, we have something called "Freecycle" which is a web-based trading community in which people post things they don't need any more for others to take for free or post what they are looking for so that someone who has extras can share.  It works great, and you can't believe everything that gets "recycled" this way.  If you posted for socks for kids of a certain age you might well come up with some for free (Google Freecycle).  We also used to go to a once a year wonderful rummage sale put on by a local school.  We got all sorts of stuff for no money whatsoever.

Lili, you and I may well just end up disagreeing in this area.  When my husband read your post (he reads most of them as the administrator on this site) he said "tell her that you understand completely what she is saying and that you get it - you used to BE Lili".  He's right.  I used to believe exactly what you are saying.  I know where you are coming from when you say "you have got to be kidding"  But while I used to believe that, I don't anymore.  Here's why:

Your point of view is an antagonistic one, which is inherently unproductive in what is supposed to be a partnership - in your post you set up the options as "my way" or "his way" (ADDer gets to pick when, how, and which chores).  It isn't really like that, though you are having trouble seeing it right now.  But let me give you an example.  You say that a dirty but happy child "puts the mom in an impossible position".  Dad gets to be the "fun" parent while mom gets to be the monster disciplinarian.  Huh?  Because the kid was dirty for one day?  What about this scenario?  Dad has fun with the kid and leaves him dirty.  He goes to bed happily (mom or dad tucks him in).  The next day mom says "Wow, you're pretty dirty!  Let's get you into the bath!" and gives him a bath.  No comments about what a bad guy dad is for not bathing him, or how awful it is that he didn't have a bath.  Just "Hey, buddy!  Time for your bath!"  Lots of suds, some fun bathtub games, and mom is just as much fun today as dad was yesterday.  Who loses in this situation?  No one!  Who wins in this situation?  Everyone - both parents get to have fun time with the kid in their own ways. 

How about learning self-discipline and responsibility?  Does having a bath teach this?  Not last time I looked.  Picking up your room, maybe.  Being responsible for chores, probably.  But a bath?  No.  The person you are trying to teach discipline by enforcing the bath rule is the HUSBAND, not the child.  Enforcing with your husband that your way (the bath, right now!) is better than his way (a bath at some other time...let the kid be dirty for a while) only serves to reinforce one concept - you don't respect his point of view.  There is no hard evidence of any sort that suggests that a child who misses a bath one day is worse off...and the ommission of the bath does not add one iota of work for the mother - she would have given him a bath in any event on the following day.  The ONLY thing at issue here, in fact, is this concept of "he'll be the fun parent and I'll be the mean parent".  In that scenario, you are competing for your child's affection...very hard on the child as well as your marriage.  But the REASON you'll be the mean parent is because you are trying to force your will on your husband.  Let your husband be, and you can be ANY type of parent you want to be on your own time.  You can even choose to join your husband and your son in their fun and be a fun FAMILY!  (and leave those chores that are pressing on you, because the fun family part is inherently more important than cleaning dishes.  You might even find that the act of having fun as a family and the good will and connection it engenders would inspire to do thost dishes to help out.)

Then, lets talk about the chores.  You claim that the result of talking with the spouse about which chore he will do is that he gets to do a single good chore while you'll get left with a "completely unreasonable existence".  My actual experience is that just the opposite happens.  If you step away from your complete frustration with the chores situation in your household right now and think about it, it makes sense.  When you request that your partner do his fair share of the chores you are doing it because it is "fair" and you want a partnership.  Okay.  Those are good reasons.  But is it "fair" to demand that he do specific chores, perhaps those that he hates or isn't good at?  Is it a partnership if you don't ask his input about which he prefers to do?  Or, put another way, if you were in his shoes, would you like someone else to dictate what you will and won't do?  I doubt it.  I think it would make you mad and resistant to doing anything at all.  It's good partnership behavior to talk about what will get done.  And sometimes, even after you talk about it, absolutely NOTHING gets done, which I recognize because that's what happened in my house for years, and probably is what is happening in your house.  Which is why I finally changed my tactics and am suggesting that you should consider changing yours.  Let me tell you how that particular conversation went in our house:

Me:  George, I can't stand the fact that you aren't doing any chores around here any more.

G:  Well, I do some stuff.

M:  Not enough.  I get to do everything.  All of the crap.  All you are willing to do is stuff you like - and specifically computers and bikes.  That's not meaningful stuff for running a household.  I need help.

G:  (Silent...he hears a rant coming on.  This argument has happened a lot before)

M:  I'm going to try to explain WHY it's so important that you do some chores around here.  I'm exhausted, yes, and that's part of it.  But the more meaningful reason you must do something around the house is symbolic.  I know you can help out more, and your refusal to do so symbolizes to me that you don't care enough about me to help out.  You're very competent at work, with bikes, etc.  You just won't help out here.  I feel like your slave, which I hate.

G:  Come on!  You know I love you.

M:  You tell me that, but I'm telling you what your actions are communicating.  In this case, your actions are more important to me than your words.  I'm not asking you to take on a chore.  I've done that before to no avail.  I'm telling you that if you don't take on a chore for what it represents - as a way for you to tell me that you care about me -  I am going to continue to be unhappy and our marriage is going to continue to disintigrate.  It's literally that important to me.

G:  (Thinking) I guess bikes and computers don't count?

M:  No.  They help some, but I don't really care about them that much.  Look, I don't care what chore you pick, as long as it's meaningful to me.

G:  (Suspects a trap) What does that mean?

M:  It means something that relieves me of some of my burden...

G:  Well, I think doing a symbolic chore is sort of stupid, and I'm not looking for extra work.  But I am hearing just how unhappy this is making you and I don't want you to think I don't love you.  Is there something specific you had in mind?

M:  Since you ask, one of the chores I hate the most is doing the evening dishes.  I'm so tired in the evenings, and I"ve already been in the kitchen cooking for a while, so I want to escape and put my feet up.  I also hate unloading the dishwasher.

G:  Those are things I don't actually mind that much.  So I can do that - I'll do the evening dishes, and agree to unload the dishwasher when it's full and clean.  But I really hate putting the food away and wiping counters.  Can you do that?

M:  Yeah, I don't mind that part, just the dishes.  But I want you to understand.  I'm not talking about doing the dishes once in a while or after I ask you.  I want the dishes to be your job. I don't want to have anything to do with them.

G:  What happens if I cook dinner?

M:  Well, if you want to start cooking dinner, then I can do the dishes.  Or we can agree that whoever doesn't cook dinner gets to do the dishes.  As long as I don't have be to nagging you to do the stuff...because the reality is that I do 99% of the cooking around here.

G:  That sounds fair.

And so the agreement was reached.  Though he had agreed, it took several months to get the system down.  But his willingness to pick up a chore I hated was meaningful for me, and it gave me a nice break in the evening.  I enforced the agreement by simply never doing the dinner dishes, even if they got left to the morning.  Eventually, he slotted the right amount of time into his schedule and started to think of the job as "his", not something he had been given by me.  That ownership makes a huge psychological difference. 

Another benefit - sometimes I would just sit in the kitchen and talk with him while he did the dishes, which also served to help strengthen our connection.  Or I would go upstairs to read to the kids (and he would join after he was done with the dishes sometimes).

But here's the real advantage of how this worked out.  Before he took on the dishes he did NOTHING around the house except fix bikes and set up computers.  He saw the household chores as mine.  Then he added the dishes because I finally insisted that he pick up something and that's what he chose.  This made me happier, so he saw a benefit to him and us in doing so (and I made sure to reinforce his behavior by telling him how much I appreciated not being on my feet in the evening).  Once he "owned" a chore, they were no longer completely in my domain.  Today, even though I work out of the home (part time) and he works in an office full time, he also does these chores:

folding laundry (we all do this together as a family); cooking and food shopping sometimes; taking items to the recycle center (sometimes); gardening help (one day a year, usually in the spring to help me out with cleanup and planting which is the only help I ask for); he administers this website, which is VERY time consuming...it takes time out of every day; makes the bed; picks up his laundry; runs errands; picks up kids and their friends on the weekends; drives our son to bassoon lesson every Sunday...and the list goes on.

In other words, he went from being a non-entity in the household (and causing me great frustration and pain for his lack of participation), to being a very meaningful contributor.  I still do more, but his help is gracious and timely and I'm grateful for it (and he expresses his gratitude for all the efforts I make, too, so this isn't a one-sided gratefulness).  He has picked up more chores because he had the positive experience with the dishes, discovered it wasn't that onerous after all, and saw how much it meant to me and what it did positively for our relationship.  This inspired him to look for other small ways he could help, each of which was reinforced by me.  I also learned the very important lesson NOT TO INTERFERE with how he chooses to do these chores.  He does the dishes his way (very scientific loading of the dishwasher - almost a game to see how much he can get in) and I NEVER INTERFERE.

You can choose to be adversaries and try to control the situation through force.  But the reality is that just because you try to force it doesn't mean it will happen.  I'm a very forceful personality, but I sure couldn't force George to do chores.  Or, you can figure out how to be partners.  My current existence, which is the direct result of following the advice I am giving, is far from "completely unreasonable".  What is completely unreasonable is living the other way.

Anyway, I hope that you will open your mind to the power of this approach.  It's not that I didn't insist, it's that I came from a different direction, and that can work.