Not Respecting Other People versus Being Unaware and not showing respect for other peoples' belongings, time, or space.
I'd like to hear what others, including those diagnosed with add, think about this.
My husband is diagnosed both npd and add. He definitely has unawareness, but I've also seen clearly that he has no respect for other people as valuable individuals in their own right.
He's only interested in you if you may be of use to him and then, only to the extent that your "stuff" may either aid or inhibit his cause. He's content to get a sound byte about you, he puts you into a box - plumber, roofer, numbers guy, responsible sort, whatever - for possible future use. Because he truly believes that the world works by people using other people, the I scratch your back, you scratch mine philosophy, he will be "nice" to you and butter you up with acts of "kindness", as long as he wants you dangling from his string. This is how he functions. Trust me, I've seen it in living color for 10 1/2 years and now have the diagnosis to substantiate it.
My personal theory is that add alone can come across in a similar way, but lacks the mindset behind what I see in my spouse. Plain old ADD does not have the engrained sense of entitlement that he displays, or the utter lack of concern for others' feelings. ADD may be overwhelmed by feelings and not be able to readily empathise, but people with add do not view feelings as inherently weak and despicable. Does that make sense? This goes far beyond a person being pragmatic. What I'm talking about here is someone who, when push comes to shove, assumes that you are using your feelings to manipulate him. Why? I think, because that's what he does to others.
A neighbor may borrow a tool and neglect to return it, but this particular personality will borrow it as though the only reason you had it is cuz he needed to use it and when he is done, the tool (along with your ownership of it) becomes irrelevant.
Yikes.
Comments
I've been thinking this
I've been thinking this morning about your post, Standing. Your observations and interpretation seem accurate to me. My husband has ADHD but I don't think he is a narcissist. He lives with and works for his elderly parents. His dad is a narcissist, I think. Here's an example: My husband (H) told me that his dad (FIL) said H shouldn't mow the strip of the neighbor's grass that is between the neighbor's driveway and FIL's yard because the neighbor doesn't do things for FIL. H told me he thinks FIL's attitude is wrong. (I was thinking about this while raking our neighbors' driveway. The woman is in hospice, near the end of her life. She will certainly never be doing anything for me again, and her husband likely won't, either. I've been raking for them occasionally because it seems the nice thing to do.)
Thank you, Rosered, for your response
There is a sense of calm and quiet strength about your posts, Rosered. I appreciate you :)
For me, looking at this stuff objectively... or Trying to... brings some relief from the emotional battles attached to separating from my spouse.
I'm aware of so many conflicting feelings, almost like giving birth to my 4th child... dreading the pain. but eager for the outcome and relief from the waiting.
You're a good neighbor and a thoughtful woman. Thanks for inspiring me, too, to do something nice for someone else :)
My soul has dwelt too long with one who hates peace. Psalm 120:6
It's a process, and not
It's a process, and not always one in which I feel as though I'm moving forward. The yard work is a great example. My husband used to do almost all the yard work. Last year, he came home a few times in the fall to rake, and my brother also helped a few times. This year, I've been doing it all on my own. It is a lot of work. There are many trees in our yard. I resent that my husband devotes all his time to his parents and none to our family and household. I'm accustomed to not having my husband's assistance in most areas but the house and yard maintenance are still difficult for me.
Lots of hooks
Like those little stickers I just finished brushing from one of the dogs' under-ears. Her fluffyspots act like magnets to those grabby, stubborn little burrs. I guess we need to be gentle and protective with our fluffyspots.
At times I (briefly) entertain a passing fancy of some day, when I will be so well grounded and mature and invulnerable to b.s.that I'll be able to invite my husband over for a meal together. Then I remember that he only truly enjoys a few, specific foods, prepared in a certain, precise way, and has never really been much for sitting down at the table together to stuff his face and move on to whatever it may be that he finds entertaining. I need to boot this fantasy guy I've made up clean out of my head, because he's never existed in my home.
I could prepare special dishes for him, bake his favorite pies, and bend over backwards catering to his special requests, but if I made chocolate chip cookies for my kids, he just had to make a point that the semi sweet chocolate was too "pungent" for him and I really should bake part of the batch minus the chips. Never stopped him from pigging out on the cookies.
In 10 1/2 years, we have never had any traditional or non-traditional divison of labor in our household. I did everything. It's true, though, that if something broke, like an appliance, he would try to fix it - and occasionally succeed. Even that stopped, once he began to hyperfocus on his business. When the hot water tank began spewing water everywhere last summer, fortunately my son was quick witted enough to go turn off the main, because when I called my husband - who works very near by - he was much too busy to be bothered. Instead, he sent a young employee who was not a bit mechanically inclined and didn't have the foggiest idea what to do.
So I think that the stuff I will miss is mostly in my imagination anyway, and each day that passes, a bit more of my hope that he is even capable of recognizing what's really happening here... goes with it.
Two different counselors in the past 5 years have told me that he'll be just fine. I guess it's time I believe it.
My soul has dwelt too long with one who hates peace. Psalm 120:6
Thinking. . . . .
Standing,
I am not so sure this is an ADHD trait or not. I have seen similar behaviors in my spouse. he will borrow something, and neglect to return it. Yet, if someone borrows his item, he will be huffing and puffing about how inconsiderate they are for not returning it to him as soon as they are finished with it. There are three specific situations I can recall, he borrowed something, and left it out in the weather, where it got ruined. So he ended up buying the other person a brand new item, and then he became the owner of the item he borrowed and ruined.
It is the 'Pot calling the kettle black" syndrome. Or the "You can dish it out but you can't take it" syndrome. Other's should welcome his critiquing them, yet no one had better ever dare criticize him.
Even in the business sense, we can be behind in paying for material, and he thinks it is OK. But he is anxious and cross when he is not paid on the spot for his jobs. Even one of his biggest customers, I have tried to reassure him that the customer always pays, and the amount of work they give to us is well worth waiting a week or two for payment. Or just being patient. Nope, he calls and calls for payment. It would be disappointing if they found someone else just because they feel they are being treated rudely.
Liz
*******I have recently seen a lady looking back at me from the mirror - and I said, "Hello friend. Long time no see!""*******
Hi Rosered...
I worked for a large business for 38 years and I was on the other end of this kind of dealings many times...If I hired your husband to do work for me...the process was lengthy just because of all the invoice stops...I had to approve it, get it to my boss to sign off, and back to me to be delivered to Finance for payment...Which cut all checks once a week on Thursdays....So depending on minor delays and when it hits finance...It could be two or three weeks before payment went out...But, like you told him, we pay:) But I always had a few business, that would call from time to time wondering if there checks had been mailed yet....Usually it was the smaller business, that managed in a way they struggled to meet payroll....I just dealt with it because usually gave me the best prices...and would work me in quick, if I needed something ASAP...
It's odd....I don't think I've thought about the term ASAP, since I retired back in 2012...and you know I don't miss it...Lol
In the not-now time
"..he will borrow something, and neglect to return it. Yet, if someone borrows his item, he will be huffing and puffing about how inconsiderate they are for not returning it to him as soon as they are finished with it. There are three specific situations I can recall, he borrowed something, and left it out in the weather, where it got ruined. So he ended up buying the other person a brand new item, and then he became the owner of the item he borrowed and ruined..."
Depending on the person, this could alternatively be interpreted as the notorious now/not-now thinking:
"..he will borrow something, and neglect to return it"
Borrowing provides a shiny new object, using it is stimulating. Returning it is a not-now activity. Sure, it could be returned NOW but it's still shiny and new, it might be nice to keep it while it's shiny. The owner isn't in front of him asking for it.
"..if someone borrows his item, he will be huffing and puffing about how inconsiderate they are for not returning it to him as soon as they are finished with it.."
His item is now not here. Even if he had not looked at it for 20 years, it is now not here. The is a new shiny situation, the item is shiny but worst of all - it's not here now! It will be returned in the not-now time. Not-now is undefinable, he doesn't know how to handle not-nows (same issue as difficulties in foreseeing consequences, difficulties in planning, difficulties in over-spending, difficulties in anticipating what might happen at retirement, and so on, all facets of the now/not-now 'syndrome').
"..he borrowed something, and left it out in the weather, where it got ruined. So he ended up buying the other person a brand new item, and then he became the owner of the item he borrowed and ruined..."
He borrowed and used it, it was shiny. He finished using it, now the formerly shiny object should be returned to someone else. That requires decision accompanied by awareness and followed by action - many non-ADHD people may return it immediately or remain aware that this must be taken care of. But for him, he'll do that in the not-now time. He lacks the awareness that is second-nature to the non-ADHD person. Not-now is always not now. A decade goes by.
And during the mysterious not-now time he "left it out in the weather, where it got ruined" - most people can anticipate that weather will damage something left out but ADHD causes problems with these apparently simple situations - future weather is a not-now event. The ADHD person has problems connecting an action to be taken now with an event that will happen in the unknown not-now. (After all, if they didnt have that problem they would be missing one of the prime traits of ADHD which, after all, is a disorder characterised by disregulation of attention).
"he ended up buying the other person a brand new item, and then he became the owner of the item he borrowed and ruined.."
From his perspective, where is there a problem (apart from the fact that he's out some $$ and may feel resentful)? The other person got their item. The ruined one exists in the not-now universe. All is good. At least in the face-saving universe. He may actually feel ashamed but how he acts about that is probably learned behavior or an issue of personality rather than a predictable consequence of neurochemistry.
I understand that a non-ADHD person can be puzzled, baffled, even disbelieving of some ADHD behaviors and there is a natural human desire to find a pattern and label it. But there's such a thing as confirmation bias - once we think a person is acting from bad character, or maliciously, from a personality disorder, or incompetently we tend as humans to look for evidence to confirm our view and we become anchored to and invested in our decision. What if, what if, we were wrong? In the present case (returning or neglecting other's property) my own examination with one particular person has led to the conclusion that much is caused by now/not-now thinking, accompanied to some extent with difficulty in perceiving, until it's pointed out sometimes loudly, a lack of understanding the impact on others since others not present are also in the not-now time.
Stylistic note: I sometimes use these posts to expound theoretically or (perhaps not simultaneously) to record notes from my experiences or observations. I might change my mind at anytime and as always YMMV. (Your mileage may vary).
Sunlight!
My soul has dwelt too long with one who hates peace. Psalm 120:6
Giggling is good!
Do as much as you like :) It is good for you!
Narcissists on the other hand - no, very bad and I do not envy you having to deal with that. I think I know of one who has also probably has ADHD, and well let's just say I removed myself from that arena.
A self-absored mind is locked....Stuck in darkness!
The Light shined into the darkness, but the darkness comprehended it not.... Darkness can never produce light within itself...
So, if my world is about me, then I am the judge of how much I will allow another to intrude into my spaces...This is blind (without conviction or carnally reasoned) territorial protection.
(A neighbor may borrow a tool and neglect to return it, but this particular personality will borrow it as though the only reason you had it is cuz he needed to use it and when he is done, the tool (along with your ownership of it) becomes irrelevant.) This is a blind survivalist reaction again by a mind who is either void of righteous conviction or carnally sets his own right and wrong by what he himself can justify.
Those with righteous convictions start dealing with those thoughts the moment they consider borrowing your tool...
(A neighbor may borrow a tool
(A neighbor may borrow a tool and neglect to return it, but this particular personality will borrow it as though the only reason you had it is cuz he needed to use it and when he is done, the tool (along with your ownership of it) becomes irrelevant.) This is a blind survivalist reaction again by a mind who is either void of righteous conviction or carnally sets his own right and wrong by what he himself can justify.
Those with righteous convictions start dealing with those thoughts the moment they consider borrowing your tool...
Very well said, c ur self. Thank you.
I think both the lack of righteous conviction and the setting of one's own standard, due to self justification/sense of entitlement... both are at play.
Then there's often the added element of tacking a mocking/ contemptuous tone toward the one who starts dealing with those thoughts the moment they consider borrowing your tool.
Such a conscientious person may be told by the narcissist - "I don't know why you worry about such things". He sees no need... after all, when he's done with it, whatever it is, it has served the only purpose for which it existed. Who could ask for anything more?
My dad had an uncle.. and the character revealing story he told about the man was this: The family lived on a farm and my dad had many brothers. When this uncle was seated around the table for a large family meal, Uncle would serve himself a heaping portion of mashed potatoes and then tell Grandma: You can put them away now. I've had enough. Absolutely unaware that 10 other people sat at that table with him. Such has been my past 10 1/2 years... and then some.
My soul has dwelt too long with one who hates peace. Psalm 120:6
Many years ago, my husband
Many years ago, my husband bought an exercise bike for his parents. They might have used it a few times, but never regularly. A couple of years ago, after my husband started providing a lot of care for his parents, he asked if he could bring the exercise bike to our house, so our daughters could use it when they're home. He did bring the bike here, and our daughters do often use it when they're visiting during cold weather. My in-laws are now in their late 80s; my father-in-law is obese and can barely walk because of arthritis and other ailments, and my mother-in-law is in the advanced stages of Alzheimer's disease. Nevertheless, my father-in-law griped to my husband recently about my husband bringing the bike here. Wow, that caused me to pop my cork (quietly and only to my husband). So, I sent my father-in-law a note apologizing for not being able to return the bike (because I have no way to do so), along with $150, an amount I think is much more than he could sell the bike for. He never acknowledged my note.
Rose, i recognize that kind of pathological envy
My soul has dwelt too long with one who hates peace. Psalm 120:6
My DH has a similar attitude,
My DH has a similar attitude, often saying that he doesn't want to do something for someone because they don't do anything for him. He'd never made a donation before meeting me (and even then, he only gives to NPR because we listen to it all the time, and he feels he gets something out of it). I'm a real bleeding heart, who was raised to believe you did things for others because we are all responsible to take care of one another. That's what society is all about. DH thinks that if he doesn't benefit from something, why do it? That includes many of the chores around the house. He seems to think that just because he doesn't enjoy doing something, that's a good reason for not doing it.
I never really thought about it as a possible symptom of his ADHD. He often mentions that he thinks he may have a mild form of asperger's syndrome, because he has such a hard time relating to people. He knows it's not normal to feel so separated from other people and how they feel, but he doesn't know any other way to be.
When I think of him in these terms, I cannot help but feel a real compassion for the man I love and it helps mitigate a lot of the anger and frustration that colors so much of our life together.