non-ADHD partner here (well, at least I think so!)
I've ordered Melissa's book, which I believe has some information about my question, but while I'm waiting for it to arrive, I thought I'd ask here.
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Only very recently, via a somewhat random set of connections, I started wondering whether my wife may have undiagnosed ADHD. Since then, I've been reading and listening to a lot of information and much of it rings true (that is, to my non-health-professional, possibly-prone-to-confirmation-bias mind). Doesn't mean I'm right, of course, and hopefully she and I will be able to discuss getting a diagnosis for her (and myself?).
Anyway, I'd like to learn more about anger/frustration in the non-adhd partner. For years my wife has been telling me the problem in our marriage is my anger. This has always felt off the mark to me.
On the one hand, I've researched all the typical behaviours associated with an anger disorder -- and I don't exhibit them. On the other, I acknowledge I still hold a lot of unhealed anger from my childhood; my therapist has said "I can often feel your simmering anger".
So my take is that, yes, I have unresolved trauma and this can, at times, lead me to overreact or act irrationally, etc. And at the same time (given that I don't believe I exhibit the signs of "an anger problem"), I feel as if I'm in good company. That is, wouldn't that description apply to most of us?
My questions (re: ADHD) are:
- How much of the following sounds familiar through an ADHD lens?
- If any of it is familiar, what might I be able to do?
For years my wife engaged in very frequent criticism, complained constantly, and exhibited various controlling behaviours. When I put this to her and contended this was unfair and unreasonable, she...
(1) staunchly denied it; then
(2) attacked me, claiming the root-cause was my anger; then
(3) got really upset because this "claim" of mine was "evidence" that I didn't love her unconditionally and I "didn't see [her] for who [she] really [is]".
Not in just one interaction, either. We went around and around in this argument/loop for a long time (a couple of years) because I could see no evidence to "justify" her behaviour towards me.
She insisted "[my] anger" was at the bottom of it and pressed me to attend weekly therapy sessions (with my therapist). This insistence on weekly has recurred many, many times and I'm always a bit perplexed by it.
I wasn't averse to therapy; I'd had a personal therapist for a long time before we were even married and I know I have plenty to work through. But I was doubtful "[my] anger" was the issue. I was open to being wrong.
Several years later, after my wife had also done a lot of personal therapy (not her first rodeo, either) and we'd started couples therapy, she finally said:
- "Yes, my go-to behaviour when I get stressed is to focus on the negative, find fault, criticise, complain, be controlling... these are all symptomatic of my insecure childhood attachment bonds (as elaborated with tons of research by Sue Johnson and her EFT model) ... So, yeah, I guess what you've been saying is valid..."
I don't mean for that to sound flippant on her part because it wasn't. More than once since she has sincerly expressed her deep sorrow for the hurt caused.
[A bit of a sidenote: Some time later, I came across the acronym DARVO while doing research to try and make sense of it and went "Yes! That!"]
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Another thing I came across re: ADHD is "not listening" (or, probably, more accurately, inability to follow a complex line of reasoning due to impaired executive function). Of course, it's also difficult for any of us to "listen well" when we're emotionally flooded, adhd or no adhd.
Nevertheless, this has been an unbelievably recurrent bone of contention in our relationship since long before we were even married. And I find it intensely frustrating to present a point of fact, a point of view, a reasoned argument for whatever it is I believe, etc. and feel as if I may as well not have spoken. She has her point of view and, dammit, that's what we're talking about here! I feel as if I have to go around and around and around just to be heard.
Then, we might be able to discuss the issue.
This is not a different way of asking "Why won't she agree with me?" Sometimes -- like everyone! Newsflash! -- I'm wrong. ***gasp*** I may or may not like that, but I believe I'm adult enough to (generally) accept when I'm wrong and adjust accordingly. I'm the kind of person who wants to do the right thing (for the situation). I, like most people, enjoy being right, but it's less important to me than taking the right action.
But... this dynamic of going around and around just to be heard is, frankly, as frustrating AF, and by then I'm annoyed and our chances of discussing the issue in a calm, rational way have gone out the window.
Sometimes I get angry about that. Not throw stuff around angry or make threats of physical harm or any other such nonsense, but what I consider pretty "normal" anger under the circumstances. Maybe I'm wrong about that. If so, I'm very much open to hearing alternative points of view on what I could do better.
Then, when we do finally get down to brass tacks (i.e. discussing the issue at hand) -- whether that day or another day, the whole dynamic repeats! I don't feel heard. She always seems to know best -- especially anything parenting related. I'm just wrong about everything all the time. (Statistically, that just can't be possible... surely?) And, of course, I then get the sh*ts about that.
I try really, really hard not to keep my anger under control, but I'm feeling completely crushed under the weight of this attempt. Not because I have this raging, frothing-at-the-mouth Hulk inside whom I'm constantly trying to keep caged... no, that is not what's going on with me.
Rather, it's because I feel that any expression of anger (including frustration) is simply unacceptable to my wife. I have, of course, put this to her many, many times (empathising with the dynamics of her family, where emotional regulation isn't very strong, and the household she grew up in, where a lot of behaviour was, I think, controlled with the use of anger). She flat out rejects my hypothesis. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Doesn't mean I'm right, either.
I don't believe all anger is "automatically bad". Sometimes it's a reasonable response to mistreatment or not having one's boundaries respected. It's a way of forcefully saying "HEY! NO TO THAT". [Recently, our couples therapist used the term "clean anger" to describe this.] To me, this is not the same as excuse-making, e.g. "Getting angry is no good, but dangit if I just don't get angry sometimes. What's wrong with that?". No, not that.
Getting angry is just about never going to result in a productive discussion. I know this. So I try to apologise whenever possible because anger in one partner is almost certainly going to trigger the other person and around and around it goes. Both of us feel crappy and nothing gets resolved. For sure, I do not always express my anger in a "clean anger" way. Who does? But I've worked with my therapist, I've healed some things that needed to be healed, and I try hard not to overreact (although... even saying that makes it sound as if, in the past, I routinely overreacted to all and sundry, which is just not the case).
It's exhausting, though, when I feel there's plenty of "justification" (for want of a better word) for my feeling so frustrated and hurt and put upon. A few years back, a friend of mine (on this issue) said "It sounds as if everyone in your household is allowed to get angry... except you."
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And then... this is what I've been assailed with for the past couple of years...
When I get frustrated to the point of crazy-making -- what I refer to as "completely exasperated"... I'm prone to throwing my hands in the air, rolling my eyes, and saying something -- admittedly unhelpful and, certainly, unloving -- like "FFS! How many times do I have to say XYZ only for you to hear ABC?"...
...and then she's onto me:
- "I won't accept that behaviour. It's disrespectful. Rolling your eyes is disrespectful. And contemptuous. I won't have you talk down to me, belittle me, or be condescending..."
This just seems like a variation of "It's your anger that's the problem". My anger has turned to contempt now, apparently. But the point -- to me, at least, and this is where I could really do with some other perspectives -- is the same:
- I am (mostly) being reasonable and fair and the only response I get from you is some version of anger. It wasn't acceptable before -- and I told you so -- and now it appears you've escalated that into the domain of contempt, which is even less acceptable. So you'd better address that or this marriage is over because I won't be treated that way.
I believe I understand her position. I just don't think it reflects reality.
Comments
Us and Them
"If you're not with us, you're against us"
Hi Exhausted Echidna,
I'm going through many of the things you've mentioned about anger and contempt. I think, at the heart of the matter is unresolved trauma as you mentioned. I believe, from my own experience, it will put a chip on your shoulder unless it's addressed. I can say for myself, that's a big part of it. It creates an "us and them" mentality that creates walls between people.
I was going to tell a recent story that I was directly involved in, where position has everything to do with it. This is not in any way made up or embellished and only happened a couple weeks ago so it's fresh in my mind. It involved 4 people with ADHD...sitting together a the table chatting and swapping stories.
In this scenario, the husband and wife were relating a story from their childhood about a bully who they knew. Several other boys ( they're friends ), grabbed him and locked him in a locker as a means to punish him. They were laughing and really relishing this memory about getting even and revenge.
I recalled a story from my childhood ( 4th grade ? ) involving a girl who, by all accounts, had issues. She was so disruptive in class, the teacher had to tell her to be quiet over and over. In this case, this girl, would literally stop class from making side line comments and talking back to the teacher. Repeatedly. To the point, she wouldn't shut up. To the point, the entire class started joining in with the teacher and yelling at her to shut up. This ( as I recall ) was unanimous. There was not one child ( boy or girl ) who were not extremely annoyed ( including me ) because she was literally taking over the class time, and stopped the lesson. She was hijacking the entire proceedings and everyone would be yelling at her to shut up!! Over and over. And she wouldn't stop. This went on for months...and she wouldn't stop!! I'm sure I yelled at her too, and joined in the entire classroom. No one, including the teacher, could stand her, and pretty much, the entire class was fed up with her. We were all 9 or 10 years old keeping that in mind.
Finally, in an act of hazing, this girl was playing tetherball, and in a spontaneous act, committed by a group of kids ( boys and girls ) I can't remember who started it, but, kids started taking jump ropes and loosely tying her to the tether pole in an effort to keep her from coming back to class. It effectively worked ( like the kid who got locked in the locker) to unsuccessfully get rid of her and punish her for literally, disrupting class so often, it was having a negative impact of everyone...including the teacher....even after being yelled at repeatedly, by virtually everyone, and she still wouldn't shut up.
In context, both stories involved someone doing something repeatedly to cause others harm in some way. Both involved retaliation and exacting revenge ( punishment ) and both involved, bullies, or at least, someone who antagonized other the other kids by their behavior.
The characters were all kids and expectedly immature, and there was no excuse for the behavior of the kids who: locked the kid in a locker which would be extremely traumatizing ( for me it would ), or tying a girl to a pole to prevent her from coming back to class even if it didn't cause any physical harm. It would have mostly been humiliating in that respect. Other than that, the stories bore a number of similarities with variations on the same theme.
When I was finished with the story. The wife was no longer laughing and seemed not to like it one bit. She then said: "she probably had ADHD and that was horrible for that poor girl...that's not funny."
Yet, she thought is was very funny when talking about locking a boy up in a locker, trapped in there for quite some time, until they could find a janitor to open the locker up. That made her laugh histerically.
I may have said something like," well, that girl was yelled at repeatedly and she would stop. Over and over....after the teacher had repeatedly told her to stop? "
She replied with an obvious tone of contempt ( towards me ) "well, one story was about a bully getting locked in a locker....and the other story was about some bullies tying up a girl." And from the sound of it, you would have thought I was one of those bullies! I was just there observing...I had no part in the tying up part. I was just relating a childhood memory ( 9 years old child ) from the perspective of a child, about a girl who was dominating the entire classroom and taking over the lesson with her nonstop feedback ( unwanted ) and side remarks, including, talking back to the teacher.
Obviously, I had unintentionally hit a nerve. No where in the story ( either one ) was ADHD involved, yet suddenly, this girl has ADHD and she's identifying with her ( from her perspective ) as if it were her. She took the position of the girl, added in ADHD, and victimized the girl in the story and taking the opposition position from the one being told. ( through my 9 year old eyes ).
And now, was also obviously not laughing and looking at me with contempt. I could feel it, coming out of her.
Did this make any sense at all? Did she not get that there was only one person in that room who wasn't angry and it was the little girl?
In essence...who's wrong here? The little girl, or everyone in the room including the teacher? Who are the bullies? The boy getting locked inside a locker...or the ones who put him in there?
The position you take, changes the entire narrative. Nobody's right, if everyone is wrong. There's no good guys, bad guys. There's no us and them. There's just a bunch kids doing stupid stuff and acting really immature.
And yet, I'm getting daggers and contempt thrown my way ( as a metaphor ).
I did nothing but relay a memory and swap a story that contained a similar component:
Punishment and revenge. Like so many revenge movies out there that all contain the same elements.
A victim, a perpetrator, an enforcer(s) ( vigilante ) ...who imposes justice, and revenge.
These archetypes are all in there. It just depends on what position you take...and how you identify with the characters.
In my real life scenarios....arguing or fighting against things that are irrational, don't make sense either. I said, or did nothing, even if that contempt was misplaced. I can't help it if she doesn't like me ( instead of the story ) simply for sharing a memory. I could not have guessed it would have triggered her after her laughing hysterically at the boy getting locked in a locker.
Dreams
Early this morning, before waking, I had another one of my ( now famous ) strange vivid dreams. I've mentioned I've had these most my life along with: sleep paralysis, talking in my sleep, night terrors, sleep walking, and this sort of dream, the one I had this morning which is an odd kind of combination between sleep paralysis combined with some sort of emergency. The problem comes, when it's time to act and you can't move. Your not frozen with fear....you simply can't move no matter how hard you try. In this case, I was trying to lift my head and get up to confront this guy who was unfairly accusing me of being a thief...in the place I actually working in? I was in the act of doing my job in this strange combination of a restaurant and boutique jewelry store...and one of the waiters in the restaurant ( who worked a different shift ) didn't realize I worked there too...and thought I was stealing this huge, very expensive item that I was in the process of refinishing. He confronted me angrily, and tried to grab me. I pushed back and told him to "back off...try me!"
And right then I was paralyzed...defenseles to defend myself. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't move. And now, this guy...was standing over me, looking down on me, with this angry face.
In reality. I have a theory about the paralyzed part, but basically, my physical body and nervous system is actually trying to react...while I'm still asleep. Which of course doesn't work because I can't physically act out my dream ( like sleep walking ) in this particular case. When my body tries to move...it doesn't work, which all makes perfect sense to me now.
The amazing part to this is....
In therapy yesterday, we talked about CPTSD, nervous systems reactions ( reacting before your thought process does )..to triggers, and different ones and where they come from. This deals directly with anger and......boundaries being crossed, and an inability to set them.
Last night, while out shopping with my SO....
I realized a boundary needed to be established that was, in some ways, never discussed. Never discussed because I had once tried, and it created an issue.
In therapy, this was established that the very thing that caused "drama" was not being able to negotiate or "verbally agree on boundaries" because that process, in itself, caused "drama".
In other words, attempting to discuss reasonable boundaries in a calm manner like an adult, actually causes anger in one party...while the other is simply trying to negotiate...and the negotiations break down.
It was mentioned yesterday, that negotiating verbally, takes some "skill". It also demands some compromise.....and a cool head at times.
Low tolerance to frustration...is a real hindrance to this process. It's also a hindrance...when one party stubbornly refused to listen to reason...because they "know what's best for you".
If someone has already decided "for you"...what "you need and want"...
They're effectively "thinking for you"...as if, you don't know what you need.
That's a big trigger for me. It happened a lot at home. That was my mom's bad in this case. And those boundary discussions went no where. It was a waste of time, trying to discuss anything rational with he at times, Because, she much of the time, was not thinking rationally...and those discussions went no where. I would get so frustrated and angry...I'd throw my hands up in aggravation. She was stubborn and rigid...and was resistant to seeing a different path in negotiations other than her own.
And she was a habitual boundary crosser. It was almost, you might say, her special talent.
The correlarys to be made here are uncanny. I'm now finding these dreams have a lot to say.
I also find this absolutely fascinating. I'm simply amazed... at how our minds work sometimes.
No Soup for You....
Time may vary.
"Intransigent" was the word I was looking for.
I like one word answers. It saves time.
The Soup Nazi is misunderstood
My comment about humor being a good way to difuse situations is me, doing just that. Making light of a serious situation is my way to try and difuse myself most of all.
The Soup Nazi ( Seinfeld YouTube ) is intransigent, insufferable and rigid in how he sees things. He's a perfectionist and willing to withhold from any customer who refuses to follow his strict rules for doing bussiness.
He'd rather makes less and withold ( including punishment as needed )...than sell of himself, his product that he has perfected ....that everyone wants.
But he's not a bad guy...he's just very particular and misunderstood. He can be giving too, as long as it's under his terms. He just needs to be understood.
Soup Nazi: " You have been a good friend. I have an Armour in my basement, you can come by and pick it up, you're welcome to it. So take it, it's yours."
Cramer: " How can I possibly thank you? "
Soup Nazi: "You are the only one who understands me."
Cramer: " You suffer for your soup "
Soup Nazi: " Yes, that is right "
Cramer: "You demand perfection from yourself and your soup! "
Soup Nazi: "How can I expect anything less from my customers?!! "
That last line cracks me up every time. It's just too perfect, in describing how the Soup Nazi thinks. Illogical yes....but it's still really funny.
It also describes my SO perfectly....her perfectionism and all !
Instead of being angry about it...I use this image of the Soup Nazi ....to define a character who I like and who I think is funny. I can definitely relate to his character. Not only that ...I can relate to Elaine who is this characters arch nemesis.
I definitely have a little Soup Nazi and Elaine in me. Which is why I think it's so funny.
This definitely helps me...defuse me...in confrontations between my SO and I.
How can you stay angry...when you think about the Soup Nazi?
i wrote a longer reply
but it didn’t upload.
Yes, this sounds very familiar. My husband- with his aggressive outbursts, snapping and swearing - ‘doesn’t even experience anger’ while I, trying to sort problems out and calm things down, am ‘passive aggressive.’ So I can’t even be calm without being accused of being angry.
I think people who have traumatic childhoods often get entangled in these difficult relationships- i spent my childhood trying to appease a narcissistic parent and their enabler. Now I’m tiptoeing round a different but no less difficult man.
Big Picture - Answering the Why - Breakthrough
I'm pulling a lot of things together here, based on my sources ( alot in therapy )and my own memories ( experience ).
For me ( specifically ), this answers a lot of questions I've had about myself. How am I different than many stories I've heard and yet, still have ADHD ? I think this will be revealing on a number of levels.
My current therapist made mention about "skills" in conflict resolution: frustration tolerance, listening skills ( focus and attention ).
My past therapist made mention once about me being: "perfectly matched or suited to my ( then ) employer who had real issues with Narcissism.
*side note: I've now come to realize more than ever, that certain personality type do well in certain types of employment. With no offense meant or aimed in a general way towards anyone living or dead, a more narrowly defined personality type, seem to rise to positions of power ( management, presidents, owners etc ) of businesses. In my particular profession in the jewelry industry....these types seem to congregate in a more concentrations that in other businesses I've been involved in. The point of me saying this ( in relationship to my last comment ) is because my own father was one of these people. And he excelled at his career. Important to note here.
IMHO ( currently ) ...is that conflict resolution skills are paramount to these issues. It's the difference between success or failure...as it pertains to this particular problem.....
My conflict resolution skills and Why include:
Active listening: Paying close attention to what someone is saying and understanding their concerns.
With a Narcissist ( my father ) . Safety meant, listening closely. If you didn't, there would be hell to pay.
Emotional intelligence: Considering the feelings and concerns of everyone involved
With a Narcissist, only one persons feelings or concerns matter. Theirs. You get very skilled at understanding what they're needs or concerns are. It becomes second nature. In order to keep out of harms way.
Problem solving: Being willing to try new solutions if the first ones don't work
Thinking on your feet becomes second nature. Problem solving and solution finding is a way to stay out of harms way.
Communication: Expressing your thoughts and feelings clearly and honestly
N/A does not apply with a Narcissist. Not needed because it doesn't matter. They don't care. Being quiet is the best course of action to be safe.
Negotiation: Finding common ground and compromises that address everyone's needs
N/A....not applicable with a Narcissist. There's no winning ( ever ) in a battle of words with a Narcissist. ( ever )
Empathy: Being able to imagine yourself in someone else's shoes
*of critical importance. You need the ability to see things from their point of view at all times. To keep yourself safe. Your point of view is irrelevant.
Patience: Being able to tolerate frustration without getting upset
*of critical importance. One false move and your done for. Being safe means, having loads of patience and holding your mud. Unless, you want to lose.
*losing is a big deal to a Narcissist. I'll get to that in a minute.
Other conflict resolution skills include:
Paying attention to nonverbal. communication
Prioritizing resolving the conflict over being right.
Narcissists need to be right. ( always ) It's more about winning...and never losing. Important to note.
Knowing when to apologize and forgive
Apoligize and forgive immediately with a Narcissist. Unless you want to pay the price.
Focusing on the current conflict.
Of course! If you want to feel safe. Resolution is key...until the next time.
Using humor whenever appropriate
defusing is a skill in itself
Remembering the importance of the relationship
With a Narcissist...there's only one relationship that matters. The one with themselves.
These are all skills necessary when your parent is a Narcissist. It's based on the fear of retaliation, if you aren't successful.
The feeling is like: walking away with a gun pointed at your back...if you fail at resolving conflict with a Narcissist. Like life and death.
But it occurred to me ( an epiphany ) again, remembering things I've learned about Narcissism. The key criteria or diagnostic factor is:
a persistent condition that never changes over the course of a person's life starting at a certain age.
But what about, someone that doesn't fit this important criteria? What if they're only like this sometimes, but not others? What are they?
Dr Ramani ( YouTube ) has a name for them. She calls them "Assholes". Thank you Dr Ramani .
But what if a person is not an asshole, except on occasion? What if, they're only an asshole when they get angry but no other time?
Epiphany: they're still a Narcissist ( even then ) because all these behaviors match exactly.
You can call this what ever you want to excuse your behavior...but in the big picture....( we ) are ALL Narcissists, when we act and behave like one. There is no "us and them".
And IMHO....we all act this way sometimes especially when we're angry or fighting with another person. Period.
And the less skilled you are at these conflict resolution skill ( sets )...the more Narsccistic you act...."in that moment." Even if your not acting this way any other time.
At the very least, you're still an asshole. This applies to both sides of the equation....male or female.
IMHO.
I'm the way I am because I had to. I learned a lot of these skills out of necessity and self preservation...to keep myself safe and out of harms way.