Ever since we had the argument a week ago, I've been stewing over what I see as a major difference in opinion between H and I. I'll try to be brief. It's fair to say that H is obsessed with his phone. He uses it constantly. The first thing he does in the morning is check social media, before he makes coffee or eats breakfast, and he looks at it all through breakfast even though one or more of us are usually at the table with him. If he decides to join me on the couch if I am watching TV, he won't actually watch anything or participate in anything with me; he will only sit next to me and look at his phone, as if he is alone. Then he goes downstairs to work and doesn't come back upstairs to do anything more than use the bathroom until dinnertime, and the phone joins us at the table.
I calmly told him last week how this behavior bothers me. I said that it makes me feel invisible and unimportant because there is no way I or our girls can compete with social media or the internet. I reminded him that he said he would have more time for us when he started his own business and worked from home, and yet we hardly see him. Even at meals, he is distracted by his phone. He can't put it down for more than a few minutes. H responded with, "Well, at least I am home a lot more than I was when I worked for Company X." I replied that that isn't really true, because when he is using his phone or on his computer, which is all the time unless he is sleeping, he is only physically present, not mentally or emotionally, and for me, it's worse than him not being home at all. H got angry and said that it's not the same at all, that him being there is way better than him being in an office an hour away, and for me to say it was easier for me when he wasn't home much was unreasonable.
I couldn't make him understand that when he ignored texts or phone calls when he was working out of the house, I understood because I assumed that he was working so hard and was so busy that he couldn't respond. Now that he is home all the time, I see that when he is upstairs away from his home office he is just too wrapped up in his phone to pay attention to anything I or the girls say or do. I can say that I am lonelier now than I was when he was gone all the time, because I know now the phone and his job comes first, not me or our girls, and I see that this is what I have to look forward to for the rest of my life. This is it. And that makes me sad and furious, and I have to bury it down deep so my girls don't see it. I have been doing this for 4 months and I am so tired, but I can't seem to make H understand how I feel.
So maybe he is right. Maybe I am being unreasonable about this. Am I?
NO!....You are not being unreasonable....
Submitted by c ur self on
Do you ever feel a little anxious when you read posts like this one you just posted?? I sure do:)....It's not good for me to respond w/o taking a breathe; calming myself, seeing the big picture (the reality) before I respond....They even have names for these social media addictions....FOMO..."The fear of missing out" is one I've heard....
When a person is in a state of distraction for any reason, then for all practical purposes they are not available....So many people live this way....And TV, Internet and Social Media are some popular attention takers.....When our distractions take addictive form then usually denial will follow if you try to point it out.....This sounds like what is going on w/ you and your husband??
What you are dealing with is very common w/ many of us who post here....It's that feeling of abandonment even thought the may be around in bodily form, they are checked out mentally. Which while in this state, a person is pretty much useless as real life sharing partner....No communication, no attention, no care coming from them....They could be valuable if the house was on fire I guess....
We really shouldn't get all worked up about them making this their choice....If we do, they win, they own us, and control us??...Wouldn't it be healthier for me to look in the mirror and say OK...This is their choice; (their reality). So, am I going to allow their choice for themselves to distract me from doing what I feel is right for myself, and my marriage??
This isn't easy because we both know that for a marriage to be one where unity, sharing and good communication is going own, that takes two....But, we can make our choices based on sound principles and restrain ourselves from useless anger, worry and frustration about another person's choices, can't we??
Some times our choices can be educational for our partners....If a person is giving full attention (mentally away) to an inanimate object, I feel no conviction to hang around them...For all practical purposes of sharing and communicating they might as well be a rock....
I wonder what would happen if you just respected his right to stay locked away mentally and never said anything about it?? And each time he came around w/ his attention glued to his phone, you just went into another room and busied yourself....I bet he might call you own it....Why do you keep walking away?? And then you can just tell him...It's my choice....I feel no convictions to be around anyone who is mentally inattentive, who's desire to give their full attention to their iPhone, out weighs their desire to engage with me....I'm very important to me! :)
It takes discipline for us to do this....Because in our minds it feels normal to share smiles, love and attention. So we want to be there engaging! But, in minds that lose awareness, or are easily distracted, or maybe in the case you are describing, it can even be addiction....Anyway, for what ever reason the actions are there....
I have found out in my own life....If I fail to recognize and accept this huge difference in our thinking. (what's important to each of us, and our abilities to mange our lives to this end) I will find myself constantly questioning, constantly feeling anxious....Boy my peace just leaves me...It will dominate my thoughts...I can lose my thankfulness, and become a victim...WOW.....
You're not being unreasonable
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
It's called phubbing (snubbing someone by using a cellphone). Lots of online about it. And its impact on relationships has been researched.
I've been phubbed. I think it's got a piece of addiction in it, so the suggestions given to those being phubbed, to calmly tell the phubber the impact of what they're doing to other people I don't think will fix the situation or bring you relief. If it's an addiction, it's irrational. It never helps to calmly tell an alcoholic that her/his drinking is harming the family, either. Calm communication doesn't get the drinker to stop. Nor for that matter does angry, confrontational communicatioin with the addict...and I do think this thing of using the web and the cellphone has been studied for its addictive effect on many people. Only the drinker can stop drinking. Only the cellphone addict can change his/her use of the cellphone.
I join C in his concerns about this technological alienation and substitution that is going on nowadays. Some have good self discipline about it all many don't.
But my take on cellphone use, or my expectation of the minimum courtesy at the table that i was used to, from another era, or my requests to my phubber to stop phubbing me had no effect. It's an addiction. And I do not think the phubber in my life could see the impact of what happened in the group when that cellphone came out.
You're not being unreasonable.
The phubber in my life ended up modifying the behavior. I do wonder whether the phubbing, because it was being done with everyone, not just with me, led to an embarrassment big enough to show that it was being taken as not cool. Maybe there was enough of an increase of results of study of this online, that the phubber....who was online on that phone 24/7, eventually read something. There are pieces now, that report the impact on long term in a relation of this phubbing (or other kind of technological blocking of relationship: video games, obsessively Facebooking, whatever it is). You could send a link to him.
But again, as far as I looked it over in my life, since it has a major addictive piece in it, a link to an online article that reports very negative effect on relationship will likely just trigger the phubber to protect her/his addiction to technology, at least in the short run.
So I don't know what it takes for technology addicts to wake up to what they're doing to relationships. I don't think I have the powers to do that wakeup.
For me, then, the thing was how was I going to be around this noxious comportment, if it was an addiction. I don't think this is the universal recipe for all phubbees....I'd trust Melissa Orlov to talk about dealing with addictive behavior, or someone trained in addictive behavior off line. But when phubbed, I'd stop talking. And wait. It was like the phubber was immersed in a lagoon....it took some time before the phubber swam up to surface consciousness, looked up from th e phone, having noticed that what had been background as the phubbing went on, had ceased.
If I got, "sorry, I just have this important text to respond to, I just have to deal with this person" I'd say, "go ahead" and be silent.
Here's the personal piece for me: I do NOT want to get into a contest with a piece of technology. That for me would be nuts. I won't be trying to be more important than a hunk of plastic and metal in someone's hand. I have raised the ante in conversation, insisting on the person not use the cell to constantly interrupt what we were doing, but that went no where.
I don't need to talk to anyone, no matter what relation they have with me, if they don't want to talk to me. I won't die if they cut me off or ignore me. For my peace of mind, I don't fight it, I do C's thing: I let it go. Quietly. I don't need to talk. I think there's definitely some relation lost if someone uses a cellphone to break up communication, but I don't need to be heard. It took a long time to get to that acceptance, by the way.
Sometimes when the phubber was deepest in the addiction to doing this, I'd go through this phub-silence-wait-Rip Van Winkle waking up from the phone four, five, six times during a meal. I will not compete with a piece of technology. There is no reason for me to talk to someone who doesn't want to talk.
I realize you have to handle kids and their expectations of their dad, so it's more complicated for you, and more fraught.
What I hope you do is not to give in to being hurt and feeling disrespected every time your phubber phubs you. He's addicted. He's going to keep phubbing, until he deals with his behavior.
Oh he's disrespecting, all right, but don't take in and hold feeling hurt and disrespected, if you can, because then with the darn addiction to using technology to go away, he will be conditioning you into a persistent ache of accumulating hurt and feeling disrespect. Do not give that to his addiction. His addiction doesn't deserve to control your heart.
So the thing is to handle your own feelings.
I learned with the phubber, to have somewhere else to go in my head or socially, as the phubber phubbed away. I'd not cover for the phubber in the group, I'd shift to talking with someone else in the group. If I was alone, I'd have tucked something in my head or in my purse to turn my attention to, while the phubber phubbed away. In my case, it was important not to strive to be heard....by a phubbing addict feeding his addiction at the moment.
I tried out phubbing the person back when I was phubbed, but that didn't do any good because I do think these phone addicts have a very blunted ability to notice their surroundings, so the connection was never made, you phubbed me how's a taste of it back. That's tit for tat anyway, no way to turn a tit for tat into anything good.
It did take something that happened somewhere else in the phubber's life, for the phubbing to taper down. I now sometimes say, when it's important to me not to be interrrupted, and to have a conversation or discussion, "I'd like to talk with you for awhile about a topic without interruption" But the phubber had gone a long way toward curtailing the addiction to the phone in social situations, before I could do that.
Sorry there isn't a magic bullet on this one, but then there usually isn't an magic bullet.
NowOrNever
what about the kids?
Submitted by dancermom on
Shalott,
What is very difficult for me in listening to your story is imagining the kids. This makes it so much harder for you. Unlike those who are two adults living their lives together, you have kids and they are at ages (and one with a diagnosis) where they need a fair amount of parenting. Many of the solutions we learn in dealing with addictions involve detaching, accepting, letting the addict work it out etc. But you are then stuck holding the ball to meet all your kids needs and they seem quite aware that their dad is absent, which probably hurts like hell. And then you have the ADHD kid who is wanting to model behavior after your husband's example. And you are depending on him for an income.
You asked it is "unreasonable" for you to be making a request that he be more present? Leaving you and your own adult needs out of it, it's only unreasonable if your kids have no support and modeling needs. Which is obviously absurd. Of course it matters to your kids how present their dad is and the example he is setting.
In my relationship, though, the "reasonable" thing has not been a very successful way to think. People can argue about what is "reasonable" a fair amount. Instead, I am trying the strategy to take personal responsibility for what is most important to me and then just make requests. "This is what I want - this is important to me. I want to matter to you and I want to know what is important to you, too."
I am watching my teenaged son try to balance his gaming with all of his other responsibilities. The fact that his dad stays up to 2 or 3 many nights of the week gaming is totally known to everyone in the family by now. So, when I tell my son he has to go to bed, and he says, but DAd is staying up, I have now chosen to say things in front of my husband (who is not paying much attention, as he is gaming) that are my own truth about the negative impact of losing sleep and the addictive brain wiring from hours of gaming per day. When I ask my husband for backup that my son should go to bed now (at his official bedtime) my husband gives it. It's kind of a "do as I say, not as I do" approach from him, but at least he gives the backup. We are to the point now where we even joke about it, I say, "yeah, I don't want you to be out of control, like dad" and my husband will say, "yup, I am totally out of control, so, don't be like me."
It makes me very sad, that we have this example right in front of us, that it is A Way to limp through life, the way my husband does. That it is possible. Just a few years ago, back when my son was in elementary school, I remember him coming home from school so proud that he had answered a school survey on screen time with "under 2 hours per day". He explained that at over 2 hours per day there were negative brain effects and so he was glad that we had family rules in place which limited him. Well, that was over 5 years ago, now and he certainly games more than 2 hours per day, now.
We do have a no devices at the table rule - and before devices were around to rule our lives, we had a no books/newspapers/magazines at the table rule. I'm really glad I asked for that during courtship, and have consistently held to that over time. Not because it's "reasonable" but because it makes one little oasis of connecting time in our lives as a family.
Shalott, your financial dependence on this guy is a big deal. All of you who are financially dependent your ADD spouse are in a special boat. It's very easy for Al-Anon type advice to be about how you can accept, detach, not enable, etc.. but your financial fate is intertwined with his.
I hope you have a side business or some low-capital start-up level ideas of working toward financial independence. Just as your husband was able to decide unilaterally to start his own business, you can, too.
We do have a no devices at
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
We do have a no devices at the table rule.
Glad to hear that rule, dancermom. That takes care of the cellphones disturbing meals at your house. Glad your husband and children abide by it and that you were able to continue it from before the marriage.
it takes two
Submitted by dancermom on
The reason we continue to have that rule is not that no one has ever come to the table with a book, newspaper or device. Because people sometimes do. Including my husband.
Years ago, before things got so negative between us, I had sincerely asked my husband what things about how his parents related to him were positive and he wanted to carry forward. And what things did he regret and want to be different with his kids? I could say plenty from my side, but I wanted to hear his. There was one specific sports activity his dad really took trouble to make sure to participate in with my husband weekly out of his busy schedule, and my husband really appreciated that. But other than that, his parents were not who he would ever go to with a problem.
We agreed, sincerely, that we wanted to have enough connection to our kids that they could come to us with a problem. And we agreed that dinner times was the time we were protecting and setting aside, to make sure there was always at least one parent at the table. And no distractions. I think this was actually a sincere agreement (unlike some other rubber stamp agreements).
Over the years, whenever someone shows up at the table with a distraction - everyone else reminds them. It's pretty firm. We were out to dinner a few weeks ago and my daughter had brought a book into the restaurant because we had a 30 minute wait to be seated. Once we were at the table, my husband looked over at her and said, "hey, no reading at the table. "
He owns it. I'm grateful. It is literally the only time that is not device-ruled in our lives. Except bedtime. I don't think I'd be able to get the cooperation to sincerely establish something like this at this time.
Again, I'm glad that is working in your house
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
It's great that the whole group abides by it, despite some slippage now and then of showing up with a book or phone.
One benefit has to be that no one at the table has to go through the emotions of frustration or feeling rendered unimportant by some absorption in an object. Good for you. I agree that it's more than doubly difficult to be raising kids, and seeking to raise them well if one's partner does the very thing you're trying to get the kids not to do.
Wry grin to hear about devices off at bedtime. I've banned some things that plug in from the bedroom, and at this stage we dont have kids growing in the house, to worry what they're up to in their bedrooms with devices
I appreciate your thoughtful, truthtelling posts, dancer.
Thank You
Submitted by Shalott on
Thank you to everyone who took the time to read and respond to my post. You are the only people I have to talk to about my situation and it makes me feel better knowing there are others out there who really understand. It also makes me feel better knowing that I'm being more rational than H says I am.
I have tried to ignore the behavior, and I have tried to discourage it by limiting my communication to the necessities. So far, neither of these tactics have worked. H does not notice me ignoring him and while he sometimes notices when I am short with him or only talk to him when necessary, he will just sigh and carry on with his life. I also tried to institute a "no tech at the table rule" but H pulled his "I'm a grownup and I can do what I want" thing so his phone stays at the table, despite the oldest's complaints about it not being fair.
H rarely interrupts a conversation to check his phone, mostly because we rarely have a conversation anymore. The only thing we have talked about extensively for the past several months is the upcoming presidental election. After November 8th, I don't think we'll have anything else to talk about. H loves to talk but he doesn't really like to converse anymore. It's usually a monologue about work and it can go on for a long time, sometimes more than 20 minutes, and I sit and listen. It's my hope that if I sit and listen, maybe someday he will sit and listen to me. It does happen sometimes, but usually the phone wins over me talking, and if I stop talking, he doesn't notice anyway.
Dancermom really hit the nail on the head for me and sent me into something of an emotional tailspin. I have two younger kids to consider with everything that goes on between H and me, and because we agreed long before we had kids that the one making the least amount of money would stay home with them, I am not working and so I am financially dependent on him. I feel very trapped and often scared for the future. I have thought a lot about finding a job and trying to build a career somehow so that by the time the girls are out of school, I will have options for myself. But, I worry more about who will care for them if I am not in the house.
Case in point: yesterday I had to take my oldest to a therapy appointment and once I got home the youngest had a dance rehearsal to go to. I'd have about 10 minutes to get us out the door for dance. I told H the day's schedule and I assumed that he would make sure the youngest ate lunch before I got back from therapy. Well, he did not. I asked her what she had for lunch and she said she didn't eat. I asked where her dad was and she said he was downstairs working. When I asked him about it, he was surprised. "She didn't eat lunch?" Well, no, because you didn't stop working long enough to make sure the 7 year old ate something before a 2 hour long rehearsal. He got mad and went back to work and I ran around and managed to cobble together a lunch for her to eat in the car. Then I felt stupid for assuming he would remember to get lunch for her and berated myself for not making a lunch for her before I left for therapy.
If I can't get him to remember something so basic, like making a meal for his child to eat, how can I trust him to pick them up from school if they are sick, or help them with homework, or make sure the oldest doesn't spend too much screen time on her devices if I'm out working? The answer is I can't. If I don't do it, it doesn't get done, and I know that this is par for the course in ADHD relationships, but I can't just let stuff go and have him suffer consequences because it's not just him who suffers, our girls suffer, and I can't do that to them. They deserve better, and if he won't step up it's up to me to step higher. It's so tiring and it gets harder as time goes by, but I keep doing it because what else can I do?
Thanks again for reading and responding. I'm sorry this is so long.
Shalott...
Submitted by c ur self on
Your post just took me back to what I've known and said for so long....
Some people are just not fit (incapable of being responsible to) to be a spouse or a parent, it doesn't matter WHY, and it doesn't matter HOW much we would like to change that for them!
You already knew when you walked down stairs to confront him that you would get the deer in the headlight look...And you know the same as so many others; that pointing it out would just create defensiveness and anger, instead of apologies and repentance....You also know; that the reason you get defensiveness instead of repentance, is because they aren't planning on doing the work it takes to make changes....
When a person knows how limited they are in areas of focus and memory and still puts "THINGS" ahead of their responsibilities toward their Spouse, Children, Job...Then they are unfit in my view, and it doesn't matter WHY, and it never will....
It doesn't mean they can't make it through life alone, it doesn't mean they don't have some great qualities, and is sure as heck doesn't mean they don't deserve to be loved and respected...It just means that they have bitten off something they aren't willing to chew....They have Vows and Commitments that they are not willing to mange their life to be responsible too....
This is way I say ACCEPT them...When you accept them, you STOP trying to change them, you can be at Peace....You will do what ever YOU need to do, to see to your own future and the people who depend on you. Without the blurred vision that comes when you allow your mind to buy into the deception of the illusions of their presents vs the reality of their life...
It sure as heck beats the emotional roller coaster we get on...(I've been on it myself way way way to long!!!) when we count on someone who isn't capable of fulfilling the roll they've committed to...
When acceptance of reality sets in, and our peace returns, we can love them like we should....
Negative energy will always follow Expectations.....
Blessings
C
you are not unreasonable AT ALL
Submitted by dvance on
You are not being unreasonable at all. I have the same thing in my house. The piece I really wanted to respond to was not giving the child lunch. This sort of thing happens all the time in my house too. I have learned the hard way two things--first, never assume anything and second, do it yourself. Whatever IT is--just do it yourself. I cannot tell you the number of times I have asked DH to do whatever it was and it doesn't get done. Why? He forgot, he just didn't think about it, he was going to--pick an excuse. The last time was two weeks ago--the sophomore had a doc appointment for his sports forms that I made like a month ago because DH was going to be able to take him. The appt was at 8am. Literally the night before the appt at 6:30pm he told me he couldn't do it. So--too late to change the appt and not get charged. I took him and it took 3 people to cover for me at work and I had to reschedule 2 meetings--I am an assistant principal and I teach 4 junior high classes. So I had to get someone to do my 8am outside supervision, my 6th grade homeroom, and my first class, plus reschedule two meetings that I was in charge of. So how many people were inconvenienced on my end? A lot. How bad did I look as a supervisor? Bad. And how did it affect the life of DH? Not at all. You would think I would learn, but no--I keep hoping. My advice--do not expect anything from DH. Make your own plans and arrangements. Letting HIM suffer isn't going to happen--he likely won't even notice, let alone feel distress about whatever it is. Expecting our ADHD spouses to NOTICE what needs doing and then actually DOING it is not reasonable. Most things that go on around them, they do not notice. You are correct that you can't let your kids suffer though--that's a totally different conversation. Make plans as if he does not exist. Have snacks at the ready so you can grab and go--I prep a lot of stuff on the weekend. My kids are older now, but when they were younger--I could have easily pulled together an apple, string cheese and a granola bar that would have at least held them over until I could get a real meal in them. My guess is your DH won't step up higher--most of us here have spouses that haven't or can't or won't for a variety of reasons. All my time here has taught me that the reason a person doesn't do something is pretty immaterial--the fact is, the thing remains undone, whether it's feeding a child, being financially responsible or offering emotional support--whatever IT is, IT is not attended to. We who live with this have choices too--we can fight with the person constantly, we can decide to accept their limitations and work around them, or we can leave. Again, folks on this board have made all of those choices for a variety of reasons. I have chosen to stay until my sophomore goes to college. In the meantime, I expect nothing. I go out with friends, I get my emotional support elsewhere, I make the plans for the kids and figure out how that will get done without DH. It has helped a ton that my oldest is now 17 and has his own car so he can get himself and his brother places if I need him to. Before that, it was a hassle, it's true.
hugs and good luck
dvance
Yep...Dvance you pretty much covered it.....
Submitted by c ur self on
(Expecting our ADHD spouses to NOTICE what needs doing and then actually DOING it is not reasonable. Most things that go on around them, they do not notice. You are correct that you can't let your kids suffer though--that's a totally different conversation. Make plans as if he does not exist.)
The sooner a person learns to accept this, the sooner they can cast away their unrealistic expectations, and move on with the realties of the life they have chosen....
Dvance and C, the children
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I have an added view on this. I applaud both your efforts on "going on without them", and I did that with my husband, but it still hurt me and left me with an emptiness and my grown children feeling like they had no real "father". I can't speak for your children, but I can for mine. I've had to sit and listen to them talk about their hurts and also WATCH their decisions over the years in choosing boyfriends, then spouses, themselves. Daughters choose men that are like their Daddies, and our girls were no exception. They both chose men that behaved in many ways like their "distant", "un-engaging" and crazy making Dad. They had several very hurtful relationships, from this, until they learned (or got hurt enough) to choose otherwise. I wish I could have SPARED them this, and I now often feel guilty for even being PART of this in their lives.
Please people, don't think that because you've learned to "deal" with your ADHD spouses who stay in denial about themselves, that THAT will somehow rub off on your children, and they will be okay. It doesn't work OUT like that a lot of times. I hope is does for you and for others here who are living this also. I've sat and listened and apologized deeply to my girls for my part in their hurt and upbringing, where they were accused of things they "didn't do", had a Daddy that was always TOO BUSY for them, wouldn't LISTEN to them them, or was too distracted to noticed anything good they did, and were hurt from the callous things that came out of his mouth, as well as all the 'put downs" and rude comments that hurt their self esteems terribly.
The girls and I have become VERY CLOSE, and we share so MUCH LOVE now. We always have shown each other plenty of love, but it's at a much deeper and more mature level of understanding now. They KNOW I have heard them, and have apologized for THEIR hurt, and I apologized for my husband also, even though he hasn't and won't. They still have a cordial relationship with him, even though it wil never be the "Dad" type of relationship most little girls would LIKE to have with their fathers.
No, Shallot, you're not being unreasonable
Submitted by dedelight4 on
You are NOT being unreasonable. My ADHD husband used "work", which meant either being at his job, or being in front of the computer/and other gadgets, as his way of escaping spending ANY time with me or our daughters. It is his addiction. I heard "I have SO MUCH WORK TO DO", every day, for over 33 years, until I finally left. Every single day was spent TALKING about work, and how MUCH work he has to do, and "doing" his work, which took up all the rest of his time. There was almost NO time left over for me and our daughters (now grown).
I left over 6 months ago, and what is he STILL talking about......"I HAVE SO MUCH WORK TO DO". It didn't make one bit of difference whether I was in the house or NOT, he still has this addiction of "I have so much work to do" addiction, What I KNOW is going on is this: He knows that work has to be done at his regular job (he's a college music professor) and yes, there is plenty to do there, but he's done this for many years, and he's teaching beginner students, so it's pretty simple right now, Plus, the AMOUNT of students he has now is very small. He teaches the same classes over and over each year, so it's NOT HARD. He made us move here to Georgia, so that he could have a much easier job, (which we fought over, because I knew it wouldn't end up good for him) which he DECLARED and demanded to me was going to be easier on him, and would be "What he wanted".
He also has other "side businesses", like music arranging, composing, but they have dried up for whatever reason now. And, he's done other "businesses" with music, and they too have not amounted to much. So, WHY is he CONSTANTLY so busy? It's because he wastes SO MUCH TIME on the computer, and on television, and on the internet, that time gets AWAY from him, and has procrastinated with what he NEEDS to get done. So, he's always in a rush, to "Get it done" (his favorite phrase), when if he had done what he was supposed to do in the FIRST place he'd have plenty of time left over for other things, And, he would have had time for me also. He will get on his computer and thinks only 15 - 20 minutes have gone by, and come to find out, it's been 4 hours. This has happened so many times, I can't count. It makes HIM angry, that he does this, but he can't and won't stop doing it. He is ADDICTED to the computer, computer games, and watching television at the same time. He DOES compose music, and very well, but does very little now, because he wastes so much time on the internet.
All through our marriage he also "worked" on things that he didn't HAVE to do. He'd MAKE work for himself, that he didn't need, and no one asked him for, but he did it any way. I felt very, very ignored and unloved with this. I tried talking about him REPEATEDLY about this, but he would get angry, and DEMAND that he "HAD TO WORK". I told him I needed some attention, love, hugs, kisses, compliments, and even sex, (you know, relationship stuff) which I freely gave to him, But, he didn't reciprocate, and then even the sex dried up.
Every time I brought the subject up, he would say, "I can't quite my job to give you hugs and kisses and attention all day, SOMEBODY HAS TO WORK AROUND HERE", and would say it angrily. I was also WORKING, and was the only one taking care of the house, the yard, cleaning, cooking, shopping, birthdays, holidays, taking care of my mother, AND his mother, and he NEVER acknowledged how much work I was DOING. He wouldn't or couldn't acknowledge it, for whatever reason.
I didn't ONLY leave him because of the work issue, (he also cheated on me, and then said he was in love with an old girlfriend) Boy, that sounds REALLY AWFUL when it's written out like that, but it was what finally ended everything for me. But, one thing I know is this. Relationships take TIME, and no it's not every hour of every day, but if you don't SPEND ANY TIME thinking about your spouse, or doing for your spouse, or loving on your spouse, you AREN'T going to be connected to them in the best way, or in the way you should be. Your spouse NEEDS your energy, your affection, your attention (even if it's ADHD attention), but especially your LOVE,
My husband didn't want to believe his ADHD impacted our relationship as much as it DID, and he stopped his medication and wouldn't be honest with counselors about himself. He also believes his I.Q. is too superior and too high for him to have "emotions" especially emotions such an intimate love, and communication. When it's all in what he doesn't KNOW. His IQ has nothing to do with his emotions, because he does anger just fine. And, he did have an affair, and love his old girlfriend, so "love' or "lust" is in there as well. He wants to live in his denial of what is really happening with him and his condition. I also believe he has co-morbid conditions as well, but he won't get tested for that, His mother was bi-polar, and his siblings had issues also, but they all stemmed from the mother. (Nature AND a lack of nurture)
It was hard for me to end everything, and finally admit there was nothing I could do to help this change, because he wasn't even interested in having a relationship with me, and staying with him was having a terrible affect on my physical and emotional health. See, he wasn't diagnosed until about 10 years ago, and up until then, I didn't know WHAT was going on with us. He kept thinking I was just "too emotional", and he just had to "work too much". I actually worked more than he did, if you added EVERYTHING up, but got no acknowledgement for that.
Oh, and even though I've been gone for over 6 months now, guess what he is STILL complaining about? "I HAVE TOO MUCH WORK TO DO". He has only a few students now, there is NO one in the house except him, and he has no other job except the one, and the house is dirty as heck because he hasn't cleaned it, or mowed the lawn or fixed up the house. Everything is a mess. So, where is all this WORK? It's in his mind, and it became his excuse to not do what he should do, and with the untreated ADHD, his scattered thinking is worse than ever. When he WAS on medication, (especially at first) he was so MUCH BETTER, but then he started taking the meds just occasionally, which messed up his moods and such.
Maybe he CAN'T do anything except work at a job, and take care of himself. It seems to be, because, nothing changes with his way of thinking about this, regardless of what I tried to tell him about the ADHD. He didn't want to hear it from me.
Oh that THING about claiming intelligence VERSUS emotions
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Sorry, Dede, I could spit bullets over your husband's claim that he's too intelligent to have emotions. Simon Baron Cohen did a lot of people a bad turn by using as part of the underpinnings of his research that tattered old 19th century idea that biologically divided women into emoters and men into rational thinking machines. That idea was used as "truth" without research anywhere near modern standards having been done. The problem was it was presumed that one could either think or feel, but couldn't do both at the same time. It was even worse, that someone came out of the cradle either a thinker or an emoter. But the basic problem was believing (without proof that we'd accept) that thinking and emotion couldn't be going on in a human head at the same time.
Cohen has been doing research on, among other issues in autism, autistic alexithymia and difficulty learning the emotional side of the triangle social situation / thought / feeling which drive a person initiating a relational action. Researchers have to control and limit their definitions, in order to carry out disciplined inquiry. Pursuit of knowledge about intelligence in his work was limited to using rules and systematic thinking. There is a whole LOT more going on in smart thinking than that. Concerning emotions, he limited his study to the presence or absence of empathy. There is a whole LOT more going on via emotions than empathy. But he needed to restrict his attention to features of autism about which he could conduct testing, and he couldn't research everything about emotion or thought. Autistics were the target of his attention. He used functionalist (wiithin the limited functions of rule creation and maintenance, and systematic thinking) definitions of higher intelligence, or tendency to use reason. So: the more insistence on rules and use of systematic, or systematic-like thinking, the higher the "amount" of intellectual activity, as his studies ran.
He has investigated whether autistics both male and female might have higher levels of testosterone which he presumed was a necessity for systematic, rule applying thinking. (I think that's a very iffy presumption, myself)).
He concluded from his testosterone testing of autistics that at least his sample group did. He then derived further conclusions from his conclusion that there was an association, at least, and he believed, formative influence of testosterone level on systematic thinking.
Cohen derived further conclusions from that conclusion, that if autistic men and women either by birth or by the birth mother's high level of testosterone during pregnancy, had exposure to more testosterone, both kinds of autistics, men and women, had what he unfortunately named an Extreme Male Brain which meant not only that they thought more systematically, using rules, but also, what he didnt test, that having more testosterone proved the absence of empathy...in autistics. His claims have not been without scientific challenge.
So has the more globalizing claim that he didnt put forward, but groups not handling his work as what it was, limited to autistics, did put forward, that neurological groups of all kinds have been proven to contain a numerically higher proportion of smarter people. As one article says....that's a claim based on stereotyping. Cohen said no such thing. People who want to be in an Extreme Male Brain group, presumably an elite of very smart people, so the stereotype goes, are eager to shop to others the idea that their minds are so constructed that they are beyond and above the dross of the rest of the population.
In my opinion, although Baron Cohen's investigations stuck to looking at the impact of testosterone presence on autistics' tendencies to need and want to use rules and systems to understand things and get through life, the real trouble for people who want to claim membership in a naturally elite group, is that old, originally inherentist belief that reason and emotions cant reside in the same person that, in 19th century Europe, men reasoned and women were a puddle of emotions. It's only a tiny baby step of stereotyping more to take, to get from the unproven (and counter proven) old belief that men are "reasoners" and women "feelers" to the even more inflated globalization that "my group has higher intelligence" and ...THEREFORE (here comes a false, ungrounded claim) if you think and have a high IQ you cant feel.
Your husband is shoring up his ego, with the falsehood, that's out there to read, but so also are many correctives of it, that thinking and feeling dont interrelate, and so much dont and cant relate, that because he thinks he cant feel. Which is a gigantic example of poor use of logical deduction. But you've figured that out.
I just hope that you dont have to hear him say that silly thing that he's smart, therefore he doesnt feel too many more times. We all think what we think, so he may live in his illusion that he's too smart to feel. Whatever you do, I hope you stop his presumption, or suggestion that if you feel, you are not smart right at the door to your heart and dont let it in. Its untrue in so many ways.
If it were true, which it is not, we wouldnt have cognitive behavior therapy, artistic creation, the composition of symphonies, scientific exploration or the ability to observe how people learn emotional response. If it were true, which its not, you wouldnt have been able to write that lovely poem, that came out of your feeling, your observation, your memory, verbal ability (something the IQ tests use as a marker of intelligence), your musical sense of rhythm, your abilitynto consider emotions other than your own, and the knowledge of your own. It's an exquisite poem. Thank you for posting it. Sometimes creativity more successfully names human life than other kinds of approach to life
Men and women's brains differ in some things, not others, but lo and behold they use their brains differently, to do the same reason based thinking. The association or influence of testosterone and IQ in boys with ADHD has been checked out, scientifically. It's worth scouting out if your husband's interested. In one controlled study of ADHD boys, what came out was that higher testosterone appears in boys with average IQ, and both lower IQ and higher IQ boys in the ADHD group tested out having lower testosterone.
Judging from the verbal capabilities of posters on ths site, ADHD and non alike, I bet a lot of us tested high when they tested our IQs as kids.
Now, thanks for the post
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Thank you for the post, and especially for the explanation of Simon Baron Cohen's work. I didn't know that, but it's good to know now. Also, thanks for the lovely things you said about my poem. Rhythm and cadence are difficult to do when writing, and I keep working to improve it, but I do love writing songs, lyrics and poetry. I just wish I could write more eloquently in my postings like so many of you guys do. I need to take a class in writing. I love the English language, and was a stickler for speech when my girls were growing up. As the girls were growing up they used to call me "the Grammar Nazi", because I detested having them use poor English skills.(especially in speaking) LOL. They hated it then, but are very appreciative of it now. LOL.
: )
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Write your way, Dede.
Keep writing what you want.
Have you read your poem out loud, or recorded it and listend to it? It has great rhythm.