Can we talk?
( My spouse is a great man. That great man is angry and bitter and is difficult to be around. ) I just borrowed this line from a post because I think it needs discussed. This (Anger and Bitterness) is a show stopper! Or at least it was in my life and marriage. This line I just borrowed is exactly what my wife would have said about me a couple of years ago...And she would have been right....She has quiet severe add, and I do not...But I was usually the first one to let anger flare up. And even if she was the first one to have an outburst of anger, 99% of the time, I provoked it. Now the difference in me today vs the person I was two years ago, is right here two years ago is where I would tell you why I was angry and bitter. Heck, I wouldn't have had the self awareness to even start this post two years ago.
How many of you are in a marriage where either you are angry and bitter or your spouse is or both? I read in these posts all the time where one or the other is angry. What happens to the countenance of an immature child who is spoiled, when you tell them no? We call it pitching a fit in the Southern US...The word spoiled and adult are interchangeable...You can try to sugar coat it and use terms like "reasonable" or one of my favorites "common sense", (my wife probably wishes she had a nickel for every time she heard that term barked at her the first 4 years of our marriage) but I like spoiled, because if I'm actually going to fight you about my expectations then tell me how I am any different from the child? One is to immature to understand he can't have every thing he wants, and the other is to blind? selfish/self-absorbed? fill in the blank.
So, the million dollar question: How do we stop this cycle? I'm sure many of you who have success stories can share what has or is working for you...For me (I'm a hard case, because I was like the poster's husband in the original post above, I was the great man, who worked hard, faithful friend, excelled at my job, loved my children, you're getting the picture, I was the one who had it all together, in my mind anyway) it took months of soul searching...She moved out for 11 months, and we went to a Christian Counselor for 10 of those. I listened to tapes, I read books...And I prayed!
Acceptance of her!...And self-awareness for me!
You may be saying is that all? lol...Well lets look at it...So I'm going to have acceptance of someone who blows my mind with how she lives life? Someone I daily have to guard against enabling...Someone who see's life through a completely different lens, than most of us:) lol...Yep...Why? Because she is my wife that's why...
What about self-awareness for me...This is the big one, because just knowing God loves me, and knowing that anger and bitterness was only ruining my own life...expectations was killing me....Now I just make sure my spirit is right, and when that is happening, no matter the circumstance's that my day deals me. I know it's going to be OK.
Most everyone on these forums are just full on expectations....Most every post is about what I'm not getting from my spouse....Hey I'm not throwing any stones here!...I wish my wife new how to manage time better, I wish she wasn't so distractible I wish she didn't talk so much during sex, and I wish she wanted it more, and realized how much I like it:).....And on and on...But what is the alternative? Acceptance and thankfulness, because she is my wife? Or, anger and bitterness because poor c-ur-self has gotten cheated in life?....I'm smiling now:)
If any of you are dealing w/ anger and bitterness...Please take your eye's off of what fuels it...There is healing for you...
Blessings and Merry Christmas to you all.
Your message
Submitted by dweeb on
c ur self, your name means so much more now. I've recently made the self awareness connection myself and am trying to share it when the grounds permit me.
Thank you for your insight.
Take care,
A
Ah, my search for the answers
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
C UR Self,
I am praising Him in this storm. It is an internal battle, that is shared so as I do not implode from denying the struggle. I received the following words this morning in an e-mail from someone who is not a participant in this forum. It is a balm. My own self worth cannot be determined by the actions of my spouse, nor by the survival or destruction of my marriage. Liz is not her marriage.
"I believe that we all get married with the best of intentions, but if one or both of the couple gets a hardened heart that destroys the relationship it is very hard to live life and follow God. Unless both people truly want to work on the relationship, it will not survive. Of course, I have also seen some couples who just live separate lives for decades, or who bicker constantly. Both of those seem so miserable. There are lots of prayers going out to you right now...work on yourself, take care of yourself, and be kind and loving to all. That will allow you to hear God and see the doors that are opening up for you."
I have yet to find one book on marriage and ADHD that tells me the end result of a marriage, where one spouse gets a late diagnosis of ADHD, is for the other spouse to learn to live in an unpredictable, volatile, angry atmosphere. Even the best of us will be pulled to the bottom of the ocean if a heavy enough weight is attached to our soul. I cherish prayers of support for my own Christian walk. It makes me stronger every day, every time, when I share my struggle, share my search, and I get faced with the nay-sayers who appear to try to convince me my faith is not strong enough, or I am making a mistake, or I am doing it all wrong, or the choices I make do not line up with Christ's teaching.
Am I accusing you of doing this? No, but it sure feels - shall I say less-than-encouraging.
No, I shall not throw my spouse to the wolves, not blame him for my own internal feelings. I just know that for me, it is an extremely hard choice to find the fine line between abandoning/turning my back on/leaving an adult man who is stuck in denial.
I do not want to be coddled. Nor shamed. I continue to be vocal and be the voice of the spouses' who are trying for everything they have, and yet not getting the answer that they hoped they would find. What if - yes what if - in my own sense of peace and good healthy boundaries, my actions can blast my spouse from his place of anger and denial? The best I can hope for right now is that I am not pulled down with him. My goal is to be the best I can be.
I have been around the block a few times. I have gone through many different approaches to salvage Liz's side of my marriage vows.
Marriage takes three - a chord of three strands is not easily broken. It is well with my soul.
Liz
Hi...Liz...
Submitted by c ur self on
(Am I accusing you of doing this? No, but it sure feels - shall I say less-than-encouraging.) I only used you're line because the reality of it is has been such the product of my marriage relationship because denial has so over powered honest truthful communications because of the inability to be self-aware by us both...
I would guess 98% of any calm conversations my wife and I have had, has been because I don't walk way when she starts her sentences w/ you...such and such. She can only be calm when discussing my short comings :)....But, the minute I say well what about you? It gets quiet, or at best, I get something like this....I do this because you do this...I know it's wrong and I should stop....
Add/adhd and denial goes hand in hand for many reasons...I just pray I can continue to focus on my own self-awareness, so I can focus on the important things and for me that has to be love first....Even if our ability to communicate never completely changes....
Thanks for your post, it has many wonderful truths in it.....
I love my thinking to be challenged
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
C UR Self,
I do not find anything bothersome by your use of my words. My thought pattern was, I am hearing: "Just don't get angry mad. Just let it be. Just whistle a happy tune and everything will be a-l-l r-i-g-h-t" It just ain't happening. The problem is my being frustrated, rather than anything else.
For what I desire, for what I search, for what Liz can do - by all designs and purposes - my goal is not how to stay married and learn to navigate around someone who is not doing his part. Those are hard words to type. I mean his part in the common goal of a partnership. My goal is not to be oblivious in the midst of this storm. That right there is a denial of its own.
Yes, my own internal well-being, and my own soul are joyful - I am here to find a way or an answer or a bit of direction to choose MY steps. I do not want to be passive. I do not want to make excuses for his behavior. For a long time I was right where you said - and this woman got burnt out. . . . I just ain't that strong. I do not want to use my experience as any sort of example for my children, sisters, or friends on what a good marriage looks like. Nope, my ideals are not Ozzie and Harriet, or Little House on the Prairie. My spouse if a great father - when it comes to marriage negotiations, it is not pleasant.
I want to stay on the road to a happier existence. It is not by going back and doing what I did.
I have read many books and articles where couples affected by ADHD do indeed get better.
Do I get his brain is tough for him to live with? Yes.
I can tell you right out front, you have never seen anyone try harder or work harder than him. He's killing himself. Money will not fix the problem. Working his job more hours, trying harder to make more money - is frustrating for me as he already was a workaholic, who works from the moment he opens his eyes until he closes them at night. By this behavior he insists he is working hard.
I have been accused by my church - more times than not - of being the problem. HE is the head of the home. HE needs encouragement. If YOU would just do what he says, THEN your lives will get better. YOUR lack of following this causes pain for HIM. You need to pray for God's direction. You need to pray for God's guidance. Yu need to get your own behavior in line with God's direction. And believe me, I DID IT. And ME blindly following those instructions, were not the right answer. It did not improve anything. It gave cause for justifying his behavior.
And with all that - I continue and sojourn on, , , ,because maybe there is some little corner, some tiny stone I have left unturned, some little morsel I missed.
I followed right into the financial mess we are in. I followed poor ideas to keep peace. I backed down because I am no lover of conflict. I do not feel cherished, loved, honored or respected.
My spouse can yell and insist I am wrong. Insist there is something wrong with my thinking. That is just not working for me.
Liz
((For what I desire, for what
Submitted by c ur self on
((For what I desire, for what I search, for what Liz can do - by all designs and purposes - my goal is not how to stay married and learn to navigate around someone who is not doing his part. Those are hard words to type. I mean his part in the common goal of a partnership. My goal is not to be oblivious in the midst of this storm. That right there is a denial of its own.) I agree with this thinking to a point...There is no one here that's oblivious, my wife and I never mastered that;)...lol...But, here is the danger for me...I have to continually ask myself this question...What are the effects on my person (emotional and psychological state) when I have expectations for her to do as you say...Her part? I've got the answer :(
Do you remember many of my posts early on would say things like..."I would be unwise to place confidence in someone who lives life with the responsibility level in many insistences of an 8 year old"...Also I have typed stuff like..."I live life like she doesn't exist." These statements were made as I was going through a transitional time in my life (right after we got back together from 11 months apart). A time of self-awareness, a time of disengaging from my attempts to bring light to a lifestyle that I view as "intrusive and irresponsible in nature...I was trying to learn to walk away, not judge her based on my view of what life should look like for us...By God's Grace I'm learning to live and grow into that reality...I can't control her, and I'm not responsible for her. But I am responsible for my words, thoughts, and actions.
So if something is lacking in the two being one flesh scenario, I just want to make sure my #1 focus is on loving her w/o using her lifestyle as excuse for my own failures in life and as her husband.
I do have to navigate (be aware of and not react to) to some degree around her, because of her add...and because of her tendencies for co-dependence. I caulk it up to what the bible say's to husbands.."Learn to live with you're wives in an understanding manner"....If my wife didn't have add, she would still have things about her that would cause me to have learn how to live w/her in an understanding manner.
(I have been accused by my church - more times than not - of being the problem. HE is the head of the home. HE needs encouragement. If YOU would just do what he says, THEN your lives will get better. YOUR lack of following this causes pain for HIM. You need to pray for God's direction. You need to pray for God's guidance. Yu need to get your own behavior in line with God's direction. And believe me, I DID IT. And ME blindly following those instructions, were not the right answer. It did not improve anything. It gave cause for justifying his behavior.) Sorry about this, I haven't got any religious statements or judgments for you. Only the desire to love you as a sister and share and receive truths with you.
There are wonderful truths in God's word that teaches me how to be a husband, like Paul letter to the Ephesians in Chapter 5...And it has helped me. Especially since my heart has been enlightened to the fact I'm to read the husband's part...Instead of reading the wives part and trying to be the enforcer...ugh:(
There is a story in the bible, not sure what verse off the top of my head...Jesus was walking on the Sea of Galilee at night, and as he approached the disciples who were in the boat during an huge storm...Peter called out to him...Lord is that you? And the Lord said yes, and beckoned him to come to him...Peter walked on the water headed to Jesus, but all of a sudden he started to sink as the reality of the great storm over came his view of Jesus...This is what happens to me when the great storms of life (one being daily dealing w/ add behaviors) overwhelm me and steel my view of Jesus...I like Peter start sinking....But, the good news for us all and for Peter that night is....He is faithful to lift us up and restore us to peace in himself.
Blessing Liz....
Broadened thinking
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
C UR Self,
My thoughts line up with this saying: Always pray to have eyes that see the best, a heart that forgives the worst, a mind that forgets the bad, & a soul that never loses faith.
I do believe we as Christians, as we enter into a Christian marriage, have great parameters on how we should act and what we can expect. In as much as I can EXPECT my spouse to never have sex with anyone but me, as he can expect me to never have sex with anyone but him, that is not the only bond of marriage.
At this juncture of the journey, I know I have been gullible, and have followed when I should have not.
Who LIZ is depends upon my life's choices between God and I. Who my spouse is depends upon his life's choices between God and him. What our marriage is depends on the life choices of all three. It resembles Melissa Orlov's example of the 3 legged stool.
I can love my spouse, and honor him as a man, and respect his right to make choices. Same as I can love myself and understand how difficult it is to find joy in life in an oppressed situation. So for me, it is not about me saying HE needs to shape up - rather it is about me saying LIZ deserves fair and just treatment, and the sort of love that fulfills her heart.
Thanks for you insight. Stretches my thinking.
Liz
Liz
Submitted by Standing on
You write: "At this juncture of the journey, I know I have been gullible, and have followed when I should have not."
Are you primarily speaking of the financial woes?
I ask because this is the fact of life that brought me to a turning point. I felt that I had been forced to go along with decisions that I knew were unwise, irresponsible, wrong, and very dangerous to the future of a middle-aged person who did not want to live her golden years in a cardboard box. No exaggeration. I was willing and eager to forgive the past unwise, irresponsible, wrong, and very dangerous decisions. What I was UNwilling to do was to sit idly by and be led down the same path again. I was unwilling to ignore the pattern. My very Godly Christian counselor asked - why would you even consider such a thing? You need to file for a legal separation!
This was a revelation to me. In love, expressing that love, without anger and bitterness, I told my husband exactly what I was doing and why. I am not responsible for how he receives that boundary.
What do you think of that?
Now that you mention it. . . . .
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Standing,
Yes, it indeed trickles down to the financial end. Carrying our financial situation on my shoulders has broken my spirit. I am on a different financial path. In my marriage situation, I do indeed feel powerless. It is not helpful one whit to hear my spouse say "No you don't. You are not powerless."
"This was a revelation to me. In love, expressing that love, without anger and bitterness, I told my husband exactly what I was doing and why. I am not responsible for how he receives that boundary.
What do you think of that?"
What I think is I totally understand it.
Interestingly enough, I never had a counselor tell me legal separation or divorce was wisdom - or even suggest it as a wise choice. I have just experienced counselors who kept on and on and on seeing us- until we just quit going to them due to lack of results. Could be that I always went with the mind set of "What is wrong with ME that I can't get this right?' Or, "I want this marriage to work." For me, some of the most difficult aspects of marriage counseling, especially Christian counseling, are: do not bring up the past; let bygones be bygones; live in the present; let the husband be the leader; any poor or wrong decisions made by him will be on his shoulders - and he shall have to answer to God for them. Do not judge another. Focus on yourself. What can LIZ do to remedy the situation. I found great value in the most recent of our marriage counseling who stated: I cannot help you UNTIL - with directions for each of us.
Patterns. That is the key word. Patterns. I lve with many predictable patterns of behavior that are quite unpleasant. The main cycle was "He gets angry if Liz does not agree with his choice. He stays mad until Liz breaks down and changes her mind." A week. A month. Maybe more. So I dropped my end of the cycle. I do not change my mind - unless I discover wisdom in what he said. I do not respond in anger. I do not agree if the only goal is to make peace in the home. Imagine my shock when I realize my behavior only stopped the cycle and 4 years went by with . . .well he is angry. So it was folly to think I had any power in anything. Patterns. This is not just an occasional thing. A simple disagreement that is not worth losing a night of sleep. This is a situation of ingrained patterns of destructive behavior.
What I think - to my spouse it is all about WHO IS AT FAULT. It just is not palatable to my sense of self to hear him say "I am supposed to say 'I am sorry', so I will. But. . . . . . . .it was not my fault." Again, it is a pattern of behavior.
Liz
What is beneath
Submitted by Standing on
Liz, your closing sentence is what's keeping you stuck:
It just is not palatable to my sense of self to hear him say "I am supposed to say 'I am sorry', so I will. But. . . . . . . .it was not my fault."
His view of reality, of truth, does not match yours and it likely never will.
For whatever reason, it is absolutely crucial to this man's perception of himself, of his very identity, to retain this view.
And it is absolutely crucial to your identity, to your sense of self, that his view no longer matter.
And there lies the rub.