There's noway I can make this short, because it involves a lot of gray area and it involves my intuition which is not a tangle thing. There's also parts to this that involve a lot of my own past experience and life lessons both, for myself and other people, and, some things that might fall under the category of values which are not always definitely "right" or "wrong" but more, to each their own. This includes my own potential cognitive distortions, insecurities and negative past experiences. Potential for assumptions, jumping to conclusions, not enough information, misinterpretations and insecure attachments.
I'm sharing this now after the fact, for the purpose of just sharing it. In case this might help someone else get past something like this. I think I managed this pretty well. In fact, I did it, without losing my cool or having an explosive outburst. This time, it was my SO who had a melt down but I managed to remain calm ( enough ) not to completely lose my composure in a potentially, highly charged situation. That was a huge success on my part which is why the outcome became resolved. That's all I wanted....resolution.
Backstory necessary. So here we go.
My SO has shared a lot about her past with me. She was very open about her past in terms of sex life and men she's been with. She also expressed how, most of her life, she felt like a wall flower, was always a little over weight and boys or men never seemed very interested in her. She was married early ( 21 ) to her first husband and had a few boyfriends between her divorce and ger second husband.
When she divorced her second husband...she lost a lot of weight . She did, what I would call, a total make over just prior to her divorce. It was quite a dramatic change. As she told me..."for the first time in my life, I was hot ! " I still think she is...but from seeing the pictures of her at this time, she really was stunning. Eye catching for sure. She changed the way she dressed, her hair...pretty much, a totally change from her past...a tattoo...everything. Almost like a mid-life crisis for women you might say? And....she suddenly found men, were now desiring her and paying attention to her. As she said...for the first time in her life.
She went on, online dating sites and had lots of interest. For a period of about 5 years...she dated non stop with a number of men. Seemingly....with lots of ongoing interest. Finally, she became dissolutioned because she found most of these men lied and only wanted sex. She was actually interested in more but her insecure attachment style...also fit having short term relationships before they became too serious ( fear of intimacy ) on an emotional level. Sex in this case...came first and right away and was more casual. The same as it was for me...but only after having a long distance relationship over the phone. I also...was not interested in casual sex and wanting more which is probably why we're together.
Having said all of this. Online where we met....she had plenty of male interest. We were Facebook friends for over a year before I ever said a word to her. I was just a lurker who admired her from afar...who quietly had a crush on her.
But part of my reasoning for not saying anything was because of all her male attention. She was and still is striking. You could not...not notice...guys comments, and the not so subtle messaging being made. It was pretty clear to me, the reason why they were there. Simply put, they were attracted to her, and making it known. I joked with her later, about the "male harem" she had . I also noticed that she seemed to welcome the attention. In other words ..she liked it. Back to : " for the first time in my life...I felt desired and attractive." It was an ego boost...and it felt good for the first time in her life in that way. I totally get all of this. I completely understand based on my own experience with this except....I had this experience in my early 20's. She was just now experiencing it....in her 50's. Big difference there.
As time went on, I would follow her, and watch these guys interact with her. There were a few who were really making themselves known ....like, "the regulars". And one of these "regulars" was her ex-husband who, as I found out later, completely ignored her when she gained weight and had a "thing" for his younger yoga instructor who was all fit and trim. He made no bones about this "thing" he had to my SO. I thought when I heard that..."what a complete asshole" ( important to note my initial impression )
But now, here is her ex, who's with a new women...following his ex around on Facebook...but after she's had the makeover and lost weight. Now ...he's interested but he's with someone else. "What a total dick" is my opinion of that. Not just a dick...but hes being lead around by his penis, and is lusting after her. The same goes with these other guys...they're all lusting after her because she's now "hot".
And how do I know this? Because I'm a guy. I did the same thing in my twenties when I was single and dating women ..ultimately for sex. I'm hypersexual or at least was. I'm no longer like I was 40 years ago. And speaking for myself . I was not with anyone or had a girlfriend. I didn't want a girlfriend and I only wanted sex. And I was really only interested in women who wanted only sex. I was not trying to deceive anyone...I made this very clear from the beginning. Unlike the men, that my SO encountered when she told men she was only interested in a long term relationship, these men told her the same ..but lied in the end. That's why she finally gave up on online dating. That's when I came along, and I wasn't looking for anything more than to make friends and get to know people My intentions were not sex, and her intentions were the same with me yet, she was still open to more, with the right person.
So, I'm watching her ex and these guys who were clearly lining up to get her attention and making it clear from their behavior....they were acting like men in a singles bar. Also to note: regulars meant they kept showing up...on going...almost every day.
I know this behavior. Even though I never could do that ( too shy ) ...I saw it done including by some of my friends who were very successful with women. Ironically, they always had girlfriends...but were also, always cheating on them. It was on going....a chronic issue with these guys. I even covered for them a couple times to keep from getting caught.
So, I'm very familiar with this kind of behavior, simply from association with my friends and myself doing it on some level. I know what it looks like, I know what it feels like, and I can regonize certain "tell tails " or freudian slips, that tell me what their intentions really are.
But being new to Facebook and social media at first. I would immediately get my first impression, from all the beautiful women on there and the guys who'd follow them ( and the things they'e say ) that there are tons....not just a few...but tons of horny old married guys just following these women around and private messaging them....pretending to be interested in them as just "friends". And me going..."yeah right" . Nice try Buckwheat...try again.
So now, I can tell you what happened.
Before I started getting really interested in my SO. There's one of "these guys" whos showing interest. He was one of the "regulars " on her page. As I hear, my SO was also communicating with him on private messaging. She had also admitted to him she liked him and was attracted to him....and even offered to meet with him in person if he was ever in town. She was also on the dating website at the time, and was openly dating other men. This was before me.
This guy is also married ( 35 years ).... another one of those "horny old married guys " following beautiful women around on social media...lusting after them....just being "their friend". My first thought, once again...." do you think his wife is aware of this and ...if she was....do you think she'd be very happy with it? " ( duh )
This is where it gets confusing. People have open marriages, swingers, wife swapping...you never know what's okay....and not okay? Anything goes and does. For me, this is "not okay" so that makes it easy. It's pretty black and white with me. I've done my time with all of that years ago. I figured out what I like and didn't like long before I was married the first time. And my honest feelings towards this are very judgmental !! It's true...I definitely don't have a high opinion of this behavior nor...would I engage in it. This belongs in the "fantasy " category and stays there....even if it were ever entertained.
So when I see this happening on social media...I have my own rather strong opinions of it and mostly, I don't respect it but who am I to judge? For me, it crosses the line.
Anyway, this married guy tells my SO that it wouldn't be a good idea for him to meet her at her house. Because he's married and that would look good.
Yes...but only because he lusts after her and knows where that would go....already!! That doesn't mean: no, I'm not interested. It means....yes, I'm very interested and think your hot !! Just like the other members of "the male harem" my SO had. And to this day....nothing has changed!
So when this guy calls...and says he's in town and he'd like to meet "us" in person...right off the bat....my intuition is doing summersaults. Not only do I not really respect this guy...I also don't respect what he's doing by continuing to message my SO, ask her to be part of his chat group ( but not me ) and continue on behaving as he's always behaved as if, I don't exist and somehow, he didn't notice we are together. I call bullshit on that.
But we're just friends?
I finally figured out what my intuition was telling me. It happened after this guy stopped by. He's a perfectly nice and did nothing inappropriate. We actually got along great and he was the perfect guest. I could easily call him my friend and I fully believe he has no intentions on crossing the line to attempting to have sex with my SO. As he indicated when he had the chance, it's not a good idea, I'm married....that's his boundary. I believe this...but that's his boundary not mine. That's the problem I was having and it was really making angry and upset.
This is where, there was no way I was going to bring this up without it being a problem. Without a doubt in my mind, my SO is trustworthy and I have no suspicions that she has any ulterior motive with this guy or anyone else. She actually just went to the doctor about her sex drive and found, the estrogen they've been giving her has a testosterone blocker in it which only makes it worse on top of a low dose, antidepressants, Adderall, veginal atrophy and a yeast infection that's been going on for months. She really does have no desire for sex.
He said something while he was here that I picked up on immediately. He said, " You're a lucky man". My intuition went off the charts.
You're a lucky man translates to: You're lucky to have what you have. You have something I desire and are lucky to have it.
In other words....he covets what I have which is my SO. He knows he can't have it, but he wants it none the less.
"The Hebrew word translated "covet" is chamad (חמד) which is commonly translated into English as "covet", "lust", and "strong desire.". Bingo
I could feel it. And it's a disrespect to me to bring that into my house where I live.
And the same with all these "horny married old men" following beautiful women around on Facebook and lusting after them while verbally engaging with them all under the guise of "normal internet behavior ".
It's only normal because of the internet and the fact that so many guys do it makes it somehow okay? Porn, is a much more honest, forthright thing to do. Everyone knows what the guy is doing and it's not a secret. Erotic images of strange women having sex who are paid actresses are NOT the same as interacting with real women, going over to their house to meet in person while their significant other ( or spouse ) is standing watching this going...I call bullshit. I know exactly what your doing even if you don't!!
So looked up affairs of different kinds and ran across a term I'd never heard of. ...
"Micro - cheating". Aha! That's what these guys are doing!! It's the first step in the many steps of actually getting to cheating. It's considered a "grey area" because some don't think anything wrong with it. Well, some don't mind if their spouces swap partners or have open marriages either....but I do. That's my boundaries...even if it's not someone else. It's not mine to judge....but it is mine to establish a boundary that I'm comfortable with and this horny old married man , who I don't respect for micro-cheating online with my SO ( and other women )....now, just crossed a second line by bringing that into the house where I live. And I don't care if he would never have sex...he's cheating in his heart and having a covert emotional affair. Even if that's not true...he's still lusting after my SO....wishing he could.
And, it seems really obvious to me and it was really making me angry! Beat it, asshole!! You're pissing around my tree and marking your territory...pushing my boundaries and pushing me in the process !
So now, how do I have a conversation like this with a partner who has ADHD ? It was a no win situation but I did it anyway. Sometimes ...these things need to be done.
At the end of the day....after she took offense, after she felt like I was accusing her, after she didn't agree with me, after she accused me of being jealous and possessive, after her getting mad and yelling, after her telling me I needed help, after accusing me of being controlling and after me promising to drop it...after her telling me a few things I didn't know which helped.....she calmed down and after giving her space....she seemed to let it sink in and maybe made a little sense to her.
I told her " I'm not jealous, I just don't trust men...because I am one. I just don't think you see what I see." That's the truth. I definitely have my trust issues but this time...it has nothing to do with her. She didn't cross my boundary line...he did. And I made no demands of her that she do anything different. I just wanted her to know how it made me feel
At the very least, she understands my boundary and why, and how I feel about it. That's all I wanted in the first place.
I understand your feeling
Submitted by Swedish coast on
It makes total sense to me to not welcome into your house someone who is obviously sexually interested in your partner. Even if she doesn't see it.
That kind of dynamic led to the dissolution of an entire circle of friends in my past. It happens, even though nobody has had intentions to act on their desire, or the object of desire doesn't see the desire.
With dating apps, things are much less innocent too. The app packages the situation and reveals the intention, doesn't it? If he were a coworker of your SO, perhaps the whole thing would at least look more innocent?
Prudent Man Rule Swedish
Submitted by J on
"to observe how men of prudence, discretion and intelligence manage their own affairs."
I remembered this from college law class. It applies to areas of law where things aren't clear or there's no definitive law written to guide you to a conclusion. This is an ethical dilemma, but some line needed to be drawn in my case because it was really having a negative effect on me and making me angry, at the same time, no one has done anything wrong. Yet. It literally is a judgement call....and I made my decision based solely on what I saw and the evidence I had in front of me. I was not speculating or making things up. That would be more jealousy and irrational in my mind. This was based on trust. The trust I had in a complete stranger I knew very little about, other than, he outright told my SO ( before me ) that he was attracted to her. And he is married. As well as having ongoing private messages between him and my SO that didn't stop after I came onto to the scene.
So what would the prudent man do? If I'm that man, I would stop messaging or at least...step way back in frequency. I wouldn't try to stay up on her current affairs or stay involved in her personal life. The prudent man would step back or aside and would not advance by taking a next step forward and visiting my SO at her home where he's never been before. If it were me, I would not have done that even if I had feelings towards her. That's how I would guage it.
There's also plausible denialbilty. Something made to look like one thing, but it's really another but can't be proved. This was what my close friend ( who I refereed to ) use to do. I was his college roommate and when he would cheat, he had a number of "tactics" he would employ. He use to have several girls "on the line" at one time while he also had a girlfriend ( at all times ). He use to find out where women would be and show up there, while pretending to be there for something else. I was with him many times and he even talked about openly. I use to get so mad at him when he'd tell me we were going to a party, only the find out he was going there to talk to a girl. I'd be waiting around for hours waiting for him to stop talking!! I even left a few times after I realized he hadn't really told me why we were there. Errr.
It's common ploy, done deliberately but covertly. Everything in front of me and my intuition screaming at me said...this is exactly what this guy was doing. He wasn't retreating, he was advancing!
And it's perfectly normal for people to be attracted to others and like them and even love them in a different way. Ands its okay for my SO too. I have no reason to doubt her honesty or integrity. Shes never given me a reason to doubt her. Does like the attention? Im sure she does. You wouldn't be human if you didn't. That's not the problem.
What's not normal, is to call 3 hours before you arrive from 600 miles away to drop it without notice, on your way to somewhere else...on a trip you've planned for months, and know every stop and person you're going to visit along the way except, the person you've got a "thing" for. You drive 4 hours and suddenly remember her, and then suddenly decide to make a detour? Plausible deniabilty. Actions speak louder than words. I'm not buying it...nothing made sense.