Emotionally Burnt-out

Dear Alone

Submitted by jennalemone on Thu, 06/22/2017 - 10:35

I have thought so often the phrase you entered here, "I'm so much happier and at peace when he's not around.." I should have left decades ago for BOTH of our sakes. I thought I was "helping" H and felt sorry for him. I was not accepting reality and thought my influence on H would change him. I wanted to do what the Bible told me to do...It didn't tell me to leave. But the biggest reason I stayed for 4 decades, is that when there was support around me and opportunities, I was OK with the situation and thought I would stick it out for everyone's else's sakes. When I realized that "for everyone else's sakes AND my own sake" I should find a way out....I could not and can not see my way out.

You are younger than me, gather all your support and find as many avenues - old and new friends, family (connect with as many as possible - you don't have to tell them your situation - not ALL of them anyhow), get yourself prepared and strong so that when/if the time is right, you have steps and avenues to be able to stand strong and go it alone if needed. You don't want to think of yourself as a victim but rather as someone who is making free choices. To be able to make free choices, you have to have the financial, emotional, strength and support. Do this before you are old and tired and have fewer people to count on. I always found excuses to myself to not leave...I think I was just afraid and could not financially see a way of going it alone with children.

A speaker on TED yesterday talked about dying people and their last words in the ER. He said nearly all of them died with acceptance and peace and they nearly ALL said they wished they would have worked on their relationships. Another TED guy talked about a 75-year study that showed that the biggest common denominator of happiness and health is RELATIONSHIPS, especially a good intimate relationship.

I knew H was not good for me, but I thought I could "soldier through" and turn it around. Turns out soldiering through leaves a person without the relationships that are necessary for health and happiness. When a person is sad, lonely and resentful, they are no good to anyone, especially themselves. Add to that, that you are wary that you will be hurt by the person you are trying to love....that it is somewhat post-traumatic stress. Spanning over decades it is crazy-making.

When a person goes to a counselor, it must be considered that counselors are just people...the young ones may have less experience with life then you do. Some of them may have effective methods for you to bring your own wisdom to the forefront, but that is all they can do. After a while, they can only bring to the discussion what they know. You may find one, like J seems to have found, that you can check in with now and then for difficult times, they won't probably tell you WHAT to do. But they can be a safe place to be heard and let it all out and ask pertinent questions for your following of your own path

This place is also a good spot to let it out anonymously and to be heard by people who have had similar situations.

I think of this phrase too now and then, "I'm married. My husband isn't married. But I'm married."

HI Alone, I understand how you feel......

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 06/22/2017 - 11:16

When dealing with the daily behaviors of add/adhd in our spouses...All of those feelings of what's next!, get overwhelming...They can really depress us, and if we are not conscience of ourselves, we can allow our thinking to take us down the wrong roads, as you stated here....(I'm not making an excuse for emotional affairs, but, I understand how easy it is to drift off into the realm of illusion, when our reality is so painful, and seems so hopeless. But, that is where we have to recognize the evil of it, step up, and bring those unhealthy thoughts into captivity, and cast them down...We are all human and subject to temptation. Anyone who tells you they are never tempted, is just speaking from their own self-righteousness in my opinion)

You mentioned bad experiences with counselors...Try to see that for what it is...You were paying for them to help you! (your emotional and mental state).....Two things here....One; they were viewing you as an Individual who had some life issues...Not as a wife of an Add spouse who much of your actions were reactions to his behaviors...They were limited...Counselors focus and target the unhealthy issues in the person who is saying help me, be better, a more stable me....

In my past when I have found myself feeling so used, hopeless, and without the will to keep enduring her behaviors and influences...I had to step away, and deal with my own heart...Usually I was starving Spiritually (my eye's was on poor me, instead of God's great Love and Grace to me)...I wasn't being thankful, but instead I was allowing myself to fall victim to her actions. In essence she dominated my thinking to the point, that I was making her my entire focus instead of God...I had and was forfeiting my own healthy living of life, for the illusion that I could mold, change or fix her mind into one suitable for me:(...I wasn't accepting my W...Accepting doesn't mean I agree. It just means I respect her right and ability to live as she pleases, and I desire the same respect...Some times peoples living of life, is so irresponsible, there just isn't any capability with in them (their minds) to live a life of sharing and unity 2=1...Their style of living is so consuming, it doesn't leave room for healthy consideration of a life mate...2=1....That is reality, and this truth isn't something we should have to get angry or mad about to accept...Because anger and bitterness will never help it...It is only destructive....Why then do they seek marriage?? Because even though they live in a world of distraction, they are still as human as anyone...Still desires companionship, still desire intimacy....Of course some just desire a crutch...We should be wise enough to see that, sadly some times our own blindness and insecurities hinder that...

I suggest you take your eye's off of your spouse, turn them solely onto yourself, let him be the adult he is, and desires to be...(Never judge him, but also never enable him by taking part in behaviors that are unacceptable to you) no matter what road that leads him down...You need to work on yourself, no one else does that for us...If we are going to live a life of wellness, and SEE the beauty each day affords us, then that will take thankfulness!

I pray that you can get a glimpse of the beautiful person that you are, the beautiful person you were created to be!

Blessings

Thank u

Submitted by Alone in Marriage on Thu, 06/22/2017 - 18:16

Thank you, c ur self and J, for your responses, and for your kind words and prayers, C. When I was reading your responses I was crying - for the first time I felt someone understood me, the pain and despair (I am new to all this). I realise, from your responses, that my counsellors, both of them, have/had no concept of ADD/ADHD and what havoc it can cause in marriage, if they had, I think their responses would have been more like yours, compassionate, understanding. You would have not known, C, but I'm a Christian too and I realise now that I am angry at God, for the injustice of my predicament. Even if my husband's parents didn't know, or he himself didn't know, neither his first wife and I was clueless too to his condition, all these years, God knew and He knew what pain and havoc it would cause me/us - why did He not protect me? Why did He not let us find out sooner? Why was I left alone with this pain (and I still feel I am), not even understanding why I am in such pain, when everything from the outside looks fine and good, even beautiful, to others? Does He not love me and care for me? It is bad enough to live with a spouse with the nagging and persistent feeling of him not loving me, but on top of that, having to question God's love...it is almost as being a Christian in this predicament is even harder, to understand and accept the situation, because we have to count His existence into the equation - and as J was saying, not allowing divorce to be an option even when everything in us cries for it...For me, on top of all, if I can put it frankly, is the sexual frustration and real painful yearning for authentic intimacy that strangles me...I waited for marriage, telling myself, one day all will be good, frustration will be fulfilled with marital bliss and provision - but instead I find myself wanting and lacking and because of distrust, not feeling emotionally safe etc., even if we have relations, it is not as it ought to be but for years, although I felt it, didn't realise due to my inexperience, just this nagging feeling something is not right and as it should be...I feel so vulnerable, sexually, I feel like I am a walking timebomb and that I am sending signals out that I'm up for taking, even if I am not, for part of me feels like a single woman and acts like a single woman, as I do the work of a single woman and raising kids like a single mum...yet I don't have any prospects of a single person to find my haven since supposedly, I already have found it...what do I do with these longings which I by their nature have to keep secret? What do I do with my frustration and pain? What with my vulnerability? Even if I manage to steer clear of this person I am currently emotionally entangled with, will I just not walk in the arms of another, perhaps one less gentlemanny than the one who has currently stolen my heart?

I understand....

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 06/22/2017 - 19:17

I can't speak for others, (although I've read a lot of posts) but, I know my own situation concerning intimacy...What I've come to realize is so many minds are just not capable of experiencing and being part of a life of Openness...Corinthians Ch 7...1-6....There are so many hindrances to it....Past sexual sin, (viewing it wrongly, like it's a gift or prize to be won, instead of a biblical responsibility to one another), Staying emotionally unsettled w/ each other, usually always effects desire, (Non-Acceptance), Lack of commitment...Having to work around physical pain for some....

The bottom line for me here is, that we must submit ourselves to do the work in every aspect of our relationship....And the physical needs are paramount...If they weren't, they wouldn't be addressed so many times in God's word...In order to have a healthy life of intimacy both spouses must care more about honoring their vows, than they do about their own selfish desires...Marriage is work, but, it can be the sweetest work we ever do, if we are thankful, and faithful to it...

I endure the same thing you do, it's not a priority for my wife...By God's Grace I've been faithful...But to be honest it makes for much more temptation. That's just reality....

But just remember this...Life is like a vapor....God see us from the eternal perspective...He is Holy, and his Spirit lives in us and empowers us to live Holy....

I have this verse taped to my bedside lamp, so I can read it when I lay down and when I rise...2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,

You and I are to weak to persevere on our own, but, in Him we are more than conquerors!

And don't you forget it Sister!

God Works In Mysterious Ways.....Alone

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 06/24/2017 - 17:40

I wanted to comment on what you said and I appreciate that I had some input into this that helped. That's always nice to hear and it does give me a way to validate or confirm things to myself? This might be going completely out there from the context of this thread, but I have had a number or revelations lately due to the status of my wife and I. She is leaving and moving in with an acquaintance she knows through her work as a social worker, who also works in that field who I have met and been to her parties before which as I see this now ( and told her as of last night ) that I think this is a good thing. My main concern might surprise you at this moment, which is right in the heat of midst of dissolving our marriage...but within this state of flux and what you might think as a horrible place of pain and suffering ( guilt, shame blah blah blah )....I'm finding myself at great peace and clarity for once, and yet a part of me, still wishes it weren't happening? No matter what, it seems you cannot escape the ambivalence or that nagging cognitive dissonence where this pain and suffering ( can ) come from....unless you take measures to secure those feelings and do something about it. I have certainly not done everything perfectly correct or "right"....but more importantly ( this time )....I didn't do anything horribly wrong either. And as I see my wife through these eyes......neither did she except.....she cannot see it this way.....which gives me the answer and the resolution I was and have been looking for. She simply can't do it, and part of her knows it. But there's another part of her....that is seemingly ( indifferent?? ) to how any of this could be affecting me at all since this IS her decision, more importantly even though, I did do some things with the very intention of drawing this out of her and namely ( in metaphoric terms ) I sat on her and held her down..and put a mirror in front of her face and forced her to look at herself which by all accounts.....is the worst thing you could possibly do to her? In essence, I took the Truth...and shove it down her throat and that was basically all it took for her to come to life and say "I'm leaving this time...and this time....I'm really going to do it" You've got to understand one thing however in what makes her operate and what system she operates under. It is, the systematic or pathological system of avoidance at all costs. The avoid harm, to avoid conflict and to avoid looking at herself...more importantly. This conditioned or trained way of thinking, I can know see very clearly how that came to be. And how that came to be was from something that happened so long ago and continuously throughout her childhood, that there is almost no way I can see know, how she could not end of like this? Honestly, she was never given the chance and she had no opportunity otherwise, from escaping the insidiously deceptive nature of dependency, co-dependency and pure selfishness gone horribly askew. That is, passed onto her and down to her...from and through her own mother in this case. And what was malignant and broken, continued on with my wife yet, she learned and evolved beyond that of her mother's completely selfish and relentless acts....of blaming her for her own dysfunction. Not only her, but everyone no matter who they were? If everyone else is wrong.....then "I" must be right? That is an assumption....taken out of context. And that context as I see it now.....is really two people...living inside one person. It is this existential reality....when the two should be one..and they are not? When these two exist and are very real...but have no awareness of each other inside you....you have one denying the other...and the other denying in the same? Yet they are both...( YOU )...and they both exist together, inside the same physical body. In the essence of this....you have your mind, your body, and your spirit...and they cohabitant together....or they don't simply put. And when that happens, what happens is...."with 3 you get eggroll"....and "eggroll" in this case....is something I CANNOT personally live with? LOL "Eggroll" in this case, is the 3rd person and in my thinking.....two's company and three's a crowd!! LOL This third party, is and has been a very unwelcome quest in my home for as long as "IT" has been here....and "IT" in this case....is not "real"...and is a fantasy or figment of my wife's imagination. However, it is NOT a figment of my imagination when it becomes manifest in my living room!! LOL Or getting into an argument with "IT" which is beyond crazy making for me!! In the situation with my wife, if she were to come here and give her version of everything that has gone down between us, it would be a "gunnysack" of crap, that just gets spewed and barfed onto the floor. In my case, "Eggroll" like to dumpt this gunnysack of shit, right onto me and my head!! LOL It's really, all the saved up conflict and hurt and pain and suffering she has had to (endure and suffer.....and tolerate ) just to be with me, to live in ( my environment ) and if would come out very much with words that say......"mine"......or......"yours". "Mine" ( like the Seagulls in finding Nemo ) "mine mine mine mine mine mine mine!!!!!" And conversely "YOURS!!!! you, you , you , you , you!!!! That is how Eggroll talks....all day, everyday 24/7. And within that, there is nothing I can do about it? Nothing I can do in my power, will get rid of "Eggroll" which is a failure only, within my wifes dysfuntion or inability to do something that needs to be done to make "Eggroll" disappear? "Eggroll" as I see it, is really a hallucination that my wife is having that she thinks is real? And as I have come to understand and me full circle, is the source for my own loniness at times and feeling disconnected from my wife however, as I have come to understand, what I thought was not true and there was no connection on my wifes part, even though she said there was? That's because, she was disconnected herself...and does not understand this, or has any way she can? She was, by all accounts....."cheated" out of her chance at the hands of her own mother and it is totally not her fault. None of it, is my wife fault and she cannot help it, that this happened to her. The problem exist though that this has a very similar effect on me or at least, fighting against it, and me pushing it back away from me, even I myself am not trying to avoid anything, but actually to ( to her ) and bond with her....however,...there is nothing to bond to? "IT" has no substance? It's like you're starving hungry and you can smell the delicsious smell of "Eggroll" just sitting on a plate and you can't wait to put it in your mouth and satisfy your hunger..and you go reach for it, and it turns out to be just a "Halogram" with no substance at all? So in terms of any value of anything that give to me.....it basically give me nothing since 0 - 0 = 0 at the end of the day? What I want, is my wifes mind, body and spirit to join with..and what I get is "Eggroll" on a plate....that is just an illusion. That kind or unpredictable 3rd entity, that is volatile as Hell!! And when Eggroll turn "mean"...then out pops "Mini Me"!!! yikes!!!

So from that and where I am, my first thoughts and primary thinking about my wife is her ability to judge? Her judgement is the only thing in question her, but not in what she knows is true. What she knows is true for herself, is that she can't live her with me? She is not even sure if she live with anyone, which is kind of being honest which I think will be a problem for her? If "Mini Me" starts coming around, I cannot imagine anyone wanting or willing to put up with that for very long? But at the same time as I told her last night....that I think, moving in with a: 1) another woman 2) a woman who is likely to see her view points and see the world as she does 3) have other women like her..and like them and all that I have seen at the parties her friend have....would see to fit her better...than how I see things at times? I think the fit, is good one for her as well as being in a safe neighborhood which is my first and primary focus when it comes to my wife and her ability to judge things at times. She is turning to these other resources now, to help her make decisions ane I am no longer required to do that, and that is no longer my job or within her expectations of me any longer? As soon as she has found someone else, to take over from ( me ).....which was my job, my imposed upon duty and the expectations that go with it.....suddenly, there's not conflict.....however, if I was in a state of being anything that I am in ( fully grieved and fully prepared for anything no matter what )...I would be suffering the loss of something, but I am only suffering the loss, of something I never got or possessed in the first place? My loss, in other words was just part of her illusion? Her illusion, of what she thought I was, instead of seeing me for who I am? My sadness and loss, comes only from seeing this so clearly...and what I see clearly is she "never saw ME, in the first place? And she still doesn't really see me, but I cannot give her...the gift of sight? Even though she says she does....and even though she will claim just the oppsite...no matter what she says...it is not going to be accurate.....until she changes the relationship she has with herself ...first and foremost, above all else.

This is not somethint I can tell anyone how to do...but I have found the path ...I suppose of how I was able to do it for myself. I've been lately, just jotting down things so I won't forget them later, since I want to remember these moments and not lose sight of them later on. I still have to process a lot of this as of yet, but I do know, what I know and I know it without question. I am sure of it, is what I am saying...but that is just "ME"....and not anyone else? Some things however, I can make statements that are "True" and "accurate" which are all indicators and pointers to what I know of "Truth". "Truth" will set you free......no bout a doubt it. I am sure of that, beyond all else.

So when it comes to religion and as you mentioned "Christianity"...what that means to me, might be different than it means to you? I can sight some differences and this is what I know:

The answer to Morals questions : Right, Righteous, Correct, and not wrong. It involves a judge, a jury of your peers a prosecutor, a defendant and it's all about "fairness", justice and vindication and validation and one in absolute terms. There is only ONE final judgment...and there is no arguing against it. What ever the judge decides, is what is right or wrong based on the rules and the laws set down to follow. Christianity as a means to find spirituality is inherently flawed. The is dual nature or dualism, will not work in isolation of the other half of the eqation. There is something inherently "wrong" with this system of living life and learning from when the "Truth" is not the most important goal or aspect to aspire too. There are so many contradiction of Truth, within the language of Christianity....I see it as an impossibility to ever get "there" as long as your still alive that is? Unless you were just born "enlightened"...Christianity, is not the path...it merely as set of rules to follow as prescribed to you by someone else? And this never worked for me, no matter how hard I tried to make it work? It doesn't work, because so much of it, isn't true? If it's not true or the truth.....then it cannot be right? If what is true for you only, is not true for the group. or if what is true for the group, is not true for you? Then you're pretty much fucked at that point with no where else to go? You might as well just cash in your chips and get it over with in that case? What else to you have to live for if that is as good as it gets?

What I have found, that Truth did and does for me? Truth....resolves conflict...and conflict is the name of the game? And so, if Truth...is what is needed to resolve conflict...then that is the path, to get there.....not this dualistism ...nor...monism.....pluralism...is the way to get to the Truth. Adopting a "pluralistic view" of Christianity...changes the dynamic in a gigantic paradigm shift. In the very essense of it.....God is not somewhere outside of yourself......GOD is you. You are GOD and are one in the same. GOD does not live in heaven......GOD lives inside you? That is "where" GOD is 24/7....from the time you were born. So if you replace the word GOD....in everything you said with the word "I" or "me"......reread everthing you just said....and now, "who done it to you"....taking this into account? If GOD is responsible for everything in your life.....then if you are GOD....then, what does that tell you? As just a means to differentiate one from the "other"...or the "other one". Like I said, "with 3 you get Eggroll"....as I see it, Eggroll is the one to blame in your relationship and Eggroll needs to go bye bye. And you can't make that happen unless you can adapt and change your mind? I've found, once you can do that, it changes your relationship with everything?

Here's a really interesting blog I discovered, that talks about this all in depth. Efhics and phiolosophy...is the way to the Truth in my mind. That where logic and reason, reign supreme as the pathway to get there but they are not the only things needed however....as I see it from a tradtional sense here.......Morals are wrought with problems.....you have to use them or have them...but they are incomplete and fail miserably and fall short or ever getting there by themselves. Something more is needed and somethint is definetly missing from my point of veiw. Ethics are the next higher level that you need to learn and acquire the skills in order to master the Truth. The Truth...is the goal.....and the answer for ethics.... not judgment, self righteousness, predjice and punishment and rewards. That's the language of "Eggroll"...in my humble opinion? That is....in relationship.;.. or relation.....with other human beings who live with you on a daily basis. That much, I know for sure!!! LOL For what it's worth.

https://meaningness.com/monism-dualism-recursion

J

More on Egg-roll...

Submitted by Alone in Marriage on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 19:02

Dear J,

Thank u for taking time to read and contribute to my post and even though I haven't replied to your post for days, I didn't ignore what you said but was thinking. The main thing I take from your post is about what you say about your wife, how her past shaped her (and still is shaping her), seemingly almost beyond repair. You talk of dependency/co-dependency cycle which is familiar to me. You also talk about how sometimes too much is just too much, even if and when people love each other, sometimes there is just not enough resources and energy or coping mechanisms that are adequate to the life situation. But how do I know when too much is too much? (and this question, by the way, is addressed to all who read this post!) When do I draw the line for my own health's sake or, as Melissa put it in her response to me, for the sake of the marriage since a marriage with an unwilling partner cannot be long-term sustainable? I know C or any Christians would quote me the Scripture "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - which I believe - but I seriously think I have been in the brink of psychosis or something like that in the last year where there are two realities within one mind and I feel I cannot fully separate the two - a very scary experience, by the way! Perhaps this is what you mean with the analogy of the egg-roll (although I cannot say I fully understood it). And much of this dichtomy of my mind has got to do with my past, not simply with my husband's ADD or his past that has fed into it, and my inability to see or understand who I am, due to my mother's failings - another interesting parallel to your wife's biography...

The second point I take from your writing is the difficulty of knowing someone when they do not know themselves or live a lie/ in denial (this also makes me think of C's post regarding his first wife). Melissa has challenged me in her latest response to look into myself to see, what I want or need and I think my sorest need is for real intimacy with another human being whom I can fully trust to love me, and with intimacy I mean soul intimacy, not physical intimacy which should really just be an extension to experienced soul intimacy and be the fulfilment of it. I feel my husband is UNABLE of such intimacy, I may well know him but he does not know me, only a perception of me that is not real (something very similar to your egg-roll analogy). But now I have to ask myself, is it ME who has made that knowing impossible or, in what ways I have contributed into this lack of true intimacy? If it is me and my issue, then I have no hope of finding true intimacy anywhere else either unless something changes in me - and if something will change within me, then perhaps I do not have to look elsewhere than my current marriage for the intimacy I so sorely yearn for...?

Alone, but not alone

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Fri, 06/23/2017 - 16:25

Hi, Alone - your questions are the same questions that many here have - for example, why couldn't we have found out sooner? Why did this unfair thing happen to me/us? Getting that diagnosis of ADHD is actually GOOD news insomuch as it provides an avenue for real growth and change for you both. But part of the process is without a doubt grieving for what you haven't had all of these years, and for how hard it is to live this life. Exhausting, really. I often suggest couples grieve together as part of the healing process. (I also suggest that they understand that they did the best they could do with the knowledge they had at the time and forgive themselves for their past interactions.)

The treatment ebook and the treatment section of this site can provide you both with some information that will help you think about treatment issues - the more different types of treatment your partner tries (i.e. excercise, sleep modification, meds, coaching, etc.) the happier both of you will be.

The emotional hole that you describe is harder to address. Your husband is most likely capable of attending to you better (i.e spending time during which he shows you how much he loves you in a way that you find satisfying) but that typically comes after treatment is in place and he has learned who he is as a person with ADHD. I'm not judging your emotional affair as one way to fill that gap, though it can be hurtful to your relationship overall. I, myself, had a physical affair when I could find no other way to get my emotional and physical needs met. I understand why, though I now deeply regret choosing that path, as it does not solve the relationship issue - only hurt us further (giving my very hurt husband 'permission,' for example, to go have an affair of his own later...since I had...) But at the time, I simply didn't feel he could/would listen to me, and we were a mess as a couple, so unable to communicate in the loving and open way we needed to. I also regret the affair in that I was not a person I was proud of during that time. I had the affair both out of desperation and in defiance, but I hurt those I love most (my husband and family). Again, I get it - I was absolutely desperate for affection and I was NOT getting it at home. But...

I admit that some of my regret is based upon my knowledge (gained later) about what it feels like to be the victim of a partner's affair. Finding out your partner is having an affair is one of the singly most painful experiences you can go through. (It focuses you, but it's AWFUL.) I would not do that to another human being again. Instead, I would move out. That has its own pain, but at least it's honest.

Another poster suggested that you focus on you. I actually agree with that. You need energy and a strong sense of self to be able to apply yourself in whatever direction you choose to take. You are currently depleted...and only you can recharge your batteries. So be kind to yourself. Choose some special things to do that fill you up again - simple or not. As examples, I have, at varying times in my life, taken up the cello (just for me! I'm not very good, but enjoy playing with the local beginner's orchestra!); spent more time exercising; curled up with a good book or a movie; stopped cooking for a while (no one starves!); created girlfriend-only events; sought out good friends; written a book or in a journal; did some spiritual soul-searching...you get the idea. Give yourself the freedom to choose some things that are just for you and to not be focused on others quite so much...so that when you are re-energized you can look at the situation not through a lens of exhaustion and hopelessness, but through a lens of 'what is my best direction now?' That way you can take into account who you are as a person and how your actions will fit with your values. I find that when I am energized it is easier to be expansive, and thoughtful and, quite frankly, to say 'no' to others when I need to.

You are not alone here...we are all sending you virtual hugs.

Thank u for ur reply, Melissa!

Submitted by Alone in Marriage on Sat, 06/24/2017 - 18:52

Dear Melissa,

Thank u for taking time to read my post and to reply to it thoughtfully and so honestly! I didn't know you had an affair, and where previously I sure would have judged you for it, now as surely I couldn't! If then I have gained anything from this experience, then it is this: Not to judge as we truly don't know where the other person has been/is currently. I am convinced many outsiders to our marriage think us happy and successful, 'having it all' when the truth is so far not so, also I think my husband thinks often all is fine when it's not, and all this, the hiddenness of it, adds to my burden and suffering...

I suppose I am only just starting grieving, having emerged from denial, but I guess the path to grieving goes through anger and disappointment which I now feel but don't know how to - or who to - express it. Perhaps you have some tips on what to do with the anger, feeling of injustice and sheer helplessness in face of these formidable daily challenges? And as I said in my previous entry, as much as I am glad we have found our troubles have a name and diagnosis and a hope for treatment, at the moment sheer lack of motivation or strength or will to change anything is paralysing me...it would be easier just to move out, to make a change of scenery, to escape...

You and C talk about concentrating on myself, as a key to recovery but at times, when I'm alone, when I cant sleep, dark thoughts take hold of me - I don't see a reason, nor motivation, to concentrate on myself, I don't see the value in my life to make the effort even to improve my life - on such moments, I'm thinking of ending it all, the ultimate escape from pain...and I cry and grieve the fact my life has come to this, I don't know how, I don't know why, when it should have been so different...

At such moments the only thing that is like ground under my feet when I feel like falling into this bottomless pit of dark despair is the thought of him whom I shall call the Dark Knight (DK for short), for he has brought joy into my life and belief in me for he loves me and longs for me - he is the only reason that motivates me to go on for the sheer hope of just seeing him, one day, is enough get me out of my bed, even if that hope is not fulfilled, and the sheer knowledge he exists, breathes, lives and is, not so far from me, gives me strength to continue. Having said that, we're not a couple, I have called it off and he agrees this is the best for us both, and yet his love carries me through, sometimes day by day...My counsellor said this is wrong, I should not have a reason of my existence pinned on another person, certainly not someone who potentially is a competition to my husband, but I don't know how to change what is so deep and real, although sometimes I'm not sure if my mind plays tricks on me and some of this is pure illusion, and an escape, but then, I don't know how to figure out whether it is or it isn't, I can only say this is how I experience it..

Melissa, did you love him, the person you had an affair with? Were you in love? Was there a sense of relief and joy at least for a little while? I hear you and understand you regret it and paid the price for it in suffering and that you found your true love was and is your husband - I think this is the truth about me too, for at the end of the day, when I think of divorce, or separation, or affair, it is the thought what it does to my husband that stops me, what it would do to his happiness - I must love him to put his happiness before mine.

Hi alone....

Submitted by c ur self on Sat, 06/24/2017 - 20:28

I've been through an affair and it consumed my thoughts and my feelings...I lived in the same mind you are describing here that you are dealing with...She was everything I dreamed a women should and could be...She was all the things my wife was not....But she was none of the things my wife was....She left her husband and I left my wife....But all that did was bring destruction and pain to everybody we both loved...I had 3 and 5 year old daughters....

Her husband came to the apartment one morning and was beating on the door and crying....As I lay there his pain became mine...I walked away, she went home....I loved her so much I couldn't go home, even though my wife would have wanted it...She deserved better!...I had to see this person at work from time to time. And for as many as 8 to 10 years after it ended, if I got on an elevator with her...I would lean on the rail in the elevator, it felt like all my blood just left my body...It took at least 12 or 15 years before I could say Hi in passing.

About a year after it ended....I fell under conviction about the way I had been living, I called my x-wife one Sunday morning and asked her if she was going to take the girls to Church...She asked why, and I told her that I was going, if I lived to get there...(I hadn't been in several years, since the affair began) So she got the girls ready and met me there...After church I went home with them, and when I told her I was leaving to go back she said...No, this is your home...So I stayed, we got remarried three days later...A week later I went and brought my stuff home...We had our ups and downs after that like most marriages. But we lived together 22 more years faithfully until she passed away with breast cancer at age 49...

The affair is my biggest regret in life....I ruined a great friendship, for something that hurt so many!...We were divorced for about a year and half, and I could never get that time back....For us, for the kids....

You really need support, and encouragement...You need wise loving Christian women to come along side you, to embrace you, pray for you, and lift you up....This isn't about your husband or your marriage; it's about you, your emotional and physiological well being....

Personal Questions

Submitted by Alone in Marriage on Mon, 06/26/2017 - 17:19

Dear C,

Thank u for ur reply - I hope u don't mind if I follow it with some (personal) questions - feel free not to answer them, it is just, since u'v bn thru something similar and made a choice u regret, I'm hoping I can learn something from you, to avoid making a choice I will regret...First of all, please remember, you have not sinned more than King David did (I trust u didn't kill ur Lover's husband...) and that David was forgiven and later even blessed 'thru' his trespass, namely, through Solomon. God has amazing ways of making something good of something so bad! Secondly, u r not giving me much hope, talking of a decade and a half before u felt free of feelings towards this woman...and hence here some questions: How did u cope being back with ur wife if u still had feelings for another? Any strategies u think u can share that worked (or didn't work)? Also, was ur first marriage impacted by adhd or just this current one? If not, in what ways would u say the quality of ur marriage played a role in u falling in love with another?

Alone...This is about it....

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 11:07

I loved and respected my wife very much...I use to mentally put her face on my lover in the beginning...My wife got cold to me physically and developed OCD, and trichotillomania..(hair pulling)..We were in our 20"s...She turned away from sexual desire, and refused my advances, some times for weeks...But, when she would give in, and I got her motor running, she loved it...But as soon as we pilled up exhausted, she would turn over and get in the fetal position, and never discuss or accept what just happened...I should have been more understanding and stronger, But after a few years of this I started an affair...(My wife woke up screaming in the middle of the night in her early 40's,, this was the first time she a woke to the fact she had been forcibly raped by a brother in law, when she was 14)...It explained a lot, I use to press her when we were young and tell her this is not natural...Who raped you, or what happened to you?...She would get upset and say nothing happened, and start crying, I would just feel bad for her, and just take my sexual frustrations and walk away...

So going home to my wife wasn't hard, because of my love for her (and my precious little girls, who are now 38 and 35, and are outstanding Christian Women, Wives and Mothers:))...It was hard in the sense of resigning myself to her nerve issues, and lack of sexual desire (the selfish stuff, but reality also)...It got some better after that, and quiet a lot better after she recalled the rape, and moved past it....After I moved back...I prayed, and ask God to give me a Love for my wife that exceed even that I could imagine...She became the Apple of my eye on this earth...No Hollywood love story script could ever produce the kind of love that was my reality for my sweet wife...She was a humble person, who's favorite spot was by my side...

The only strategy I tried to live by was...Give my all in my marriage, never make excuses for my own sin...And never question God's love for me, and his presents and power in me....(Spiritual reality)....It is no telling where I would be (wrong choices) without his love that has intervened for me, and lead me away from my own destructive mind....

No adhd in my first marriage...expect for my own, if I do have it....

Why did I do it? well because I'm a sinner, and my eyes and flesh were deceived, I gave in to the tempter...Sin is definitely pleasurable for a season...But nothing can ever replace the Holiness of what God produced in my marriage after I went home....

I'm expecting God to make give me the same Love for my present wife...The same acceptance...The same respect....Also I'm praying for wisdom, to not enable, but be a example....He is faithful!

Yes David angered God w/ his sin...Just like I do....God had a covenant w/ David and he forgave him and as you say loved him and blessed him greatly....And God has forgiven me, and given me a new covenant, the Christ who make intercession for me, and allows me access to the Father...

I am truly a blessed man....As so are you my Dear Sister!

Love?

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 14:43

I had a very complicated, multi-decade relationship with the person I had the affair with. So it wasn't the same experience that you are having, though I do remember how hard it was to get him out of my mind while the affair was going on (this generally goes away over time, once the affair is over if you don't see him.) That said, I think my husband did have the experience you describe - infatuation, leading to what feels like the drive of love. I don't doubt, in fact, that he did love these other women. But part of the love one has in an affair is the love of what we imagine the other person to be, rather than who that real person is. And, relationships that are not full time relationships have none of the day-to-day pressures that regular relationships have. It's easy to be 'great' with each other when you only have the good times together - i.e. you spend lots of time anticipating how great it will be, then spend your time together fulfilling that promise to yourselves, and don't have to pay any attention to anything (or anyone) else, other than the object of your love.

Thought I don't have the research at my fingertips, my understanding is that over 80% of couples who start as affair partners, leave their marriages and then try to be together, don't last. When they are finally with each other more, they realize it's not as great as it seemed...AND they have lost parts of their lives that they treasure, such as daily access to kids and their shared history. Read C Ur Self's description below for more.

As for putting your husband's happiness before your own, be careful. It's easy to assume that staying is the same as making someone happy. But one of the more miserable feelings in the world is to be with someone whom you understand is not really excited to be with you. You may have a marriage in fact, but is it fulfilling for either of you if you aren't very happlly engaged with him? This is why everyone is telling you to look inside yourself and take care of yourself. We want you to explore what it is that you are seeking, and see if you can - by better taking care of yourself and focusing there - fill it. We all need to feel loved. The first place to start is with 'self-love' - i.e. an appreciation of your self and your desires in life. Some call this living authentically. Once you love and take care of yourself, then you are ready to speak up for what you need, including from your husband. Too many adults sacrifice themselves and don't have the inner love needed to reach out to others and, by doing so, change everyone's lives.

Hope that's not too obscure!

Thank you Melissa

Submitted by jennalemone on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 18:57

Very wise words. This is an entry I will read over and over. I can't believe how I forgot so much of the me that was love. There should be continuing classes with these things for people to learn (and be reminded) about life and courage and grace. We need to feel loved. The first place to start is with "self-love". I used to know this and live this but forgot this in the turmoil and busywork that has been my "sacrificial" marriage. I am slowly pulling myself up and out of the muck. Thanks.

Mellissa....,..........Confirmation Bias

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 06/28/2017 - 14:07

Hi Mellissa......I have something to say here that I really want to say, but this has come from a whole lot of thinking and reflecting and arriving at a number of conclusions which are all coming together at once which really is from this opportunity that has been created from the simple fact that my wife has made a decision. What you were saying was not "obcure" to me because I have just finished reading a bunch of articles related directly to "Confirmation Bias" that I found from searching for a term that popped into my head in relationship to my wife. Actually, I had originally thought about this idea of being "closed minded"...or "open minded" which I know I went through as part of my identifying the "problems" I was having with my wife a long time ago and of course, nothing has really changed there. So I don't get myself into to trouble here, and say the wrong thing as a "judgment" or "label" which is not how I am seeing this, my actually "thought" that popped into my head as just an idea, was the concept of "narrow minded". So I don;t accuse or imply or even insinuate here ( by anyone reading this who might take this the wrong way ) ....this is actually how my mind works and how I get ideas? If you look at "narrow minded" as just a problem or something that needs a closer look at.....this is exactly what happens with me....these thoughts or ideas come, from just observing objectively...and then I associate what ever it looks like to me.....with a word to describe it. What I'm saying is.....this is a new idea, not some preconceived notion I've had? In fact, I've had this belief about my wife that she is closed minded which is what I came up with compared to me? I'd say....I'm pretty open minded and open to new ideas? And I am CURIOUS like a cat....so I always want to know more about these thoughts or anything I'm not sure of exactly what the "words" mean? I have an idea, of what they mean....but I have a strong need to know exactly what they mean and this is just that learning process that I've always done and have never stopped? If there is anything that I'm really addicted to, is know what words mean!!! And if there is anything that I've found addictive to a computer or use it for is "GOOGLE". LOL   I am addicted to :"search engines" simply put.

This may be obscure too....but I'm hoping I can make an really important connection here. Just in your own words, what you said here, is related to exactly what I just said. It may not seem like it, but I will connect it none the less. But part of the love one has in an affair is the love of what we imagine the other person to be, rather than who that real person is. How do I say this and get to the good part or the meat of this thought which is not just a thought but something I know very well. When I say, I'm addicted to the computer or addicted to "GOOGLE".....that is not what I'm doing or why it may "look like it" if you watched me go to my phone or look things up all the time? In fact, this is exactly what my wife has said before and she is kind of fixated on the computer as if the "computer is" the thing she doesn;t like. For her, it's just me putting my attention else where, but this is not me being on the computer forever, this is me using it like a dictionary just search for something or look something up? And the reason why I do this is what is most important. The reason I do it is because I "have to know"! LOL   I have to know....I am driven to know, and there's a really good reason for it and it has to do with my mother. LOL I know, exactly where this comes from and it started when I was a little kid and it's never changed and that much I am absolutely sure about!!!!!! LOL

Just to pull this together before I continue with this train of thought, I have to relate some facts and things I've revisited about ADHD and this will make more sense when I do. This is specific to "women with ADHD" and I just read this so it's fresh in my mind.....as they believe currently ( and I don't doubt it what so ever now ) that there are a lot of undiagnosed women with ADHD running around out there which actually throws the estimates off of just how many or what % of the population has ADHD. Well, if I were to take just my mother, my 2 sisters and my wife ( assuming I'm right ) then there are 4 woman I know personally, who have no idea they have or had ADHD.....but at this point, I am a little more than almost sure of it based on. And the reason why as the research said is that 'girls with ADHD, tend to internalize their symptoms and internalize things which many times has social problems and consequences for them later emotionally speaking. And as was with me....boys and men....more often tend to externalize their symptoms with shows up as conduct, behavior and hyperactivity which is the physical manifestation of the symptoms which shows itself more"externally". This is with "boys" and "girls" growing up or in the developmental years. True.....true...and more true on top of it. Check all the above in my family of origin but most apparent, and most problematic was with my own mother who shared some very similar features or personality similarities even though she expressed them differently than my wife does. But at the heart of this and at the core now.....is "Confirmation Bias". As I googled "closed minded" or "narrow minded"....it all came together at once. What confirmation bias is really related to mostly...is rigid thinking, dogmatic beliefs, preconceived ideas or notions and it's ALL based on assumption without any way to know if it's true or not? It is a unsubstantiated, verified and someone "concocted" idea or a "wishful thinking"....that goes from "wishful thinking"....to wanting it to be real......to believing it is real....and then, actually believing it's the undeniable Truth.....which at that point....there is no arguing against it, if it's absolutely true. To the point, that if you know something is absolutely True and you';ve come to that conclusion....then you need to know any more, and your need to resolve that uncertaintanty of "not knowing".....is now resolved and taken care of? As soon as confirmation bias does it's job.....you don't need to know at that point, because now your sure of it. Except, when you finally come to see what you just did.....isn't true at all since you just did that in your head....with no verification or way to make sure it was right or accurate.....until you actually get there "in real time" and experience it for yourself?

All of that, came from your imagination....and as you said it "But part of the love one has in an affair is the love of what (we imagine ) the other person to be, rather than (who that real person is.) You can replace imagine.....with "dreams" or what "we dreamed of"......interchangeably if you like is means and is the exact same thing. I've done that and still do since this what everyone does to a certain point....but specifically with ADHD as I read further in some articles ...was just a reminded of what I've known so well for myself going all the way back as a child. Low self esteem, anxious and related to anxiety surrounding my symptoms and being punished or called out on them...and a good amount of fear and uncertainty and with no ability to escape those feelings.

And of course, that feeling of "not knowing" just about drove me insane. To the point, I was driven to it.....and I had to know!!! But in respect to the difference with me and the rest of my family.....I was kind of fearless to the point that it scared my mom to death. I had no fear...what so ever about doing almost anything...and if I need to know and I didn't.....then I went of found out for myself. I was a totally explorer, and everything was a gigantic science experiment with me. "Don't touch that"....was the thing that everyone always use to scold me for. But did I listen? NO!!! LOL    I had to do it.....that's the point. I could not live with "not knowing' so I had to resolve that in order to be Okay. Since as soon I found out, then I didn't[t need to know anymore and the anxiety and uncertainty went away?

But this comes right back to my poor mother. I was born to this earth....to torment her "confirmation bias". My job starting at a very young age, was to listen to her "funny ideas"....;go..."that doesn't';t sound right mom?????"....go out and explore around and find the answer, and then come back home and show her she was wrong? But my intention not to be right.....because I didn't know what right was? I didn't have an opinion or belief.....so how could I be right if I didn't';t know? Right? If you don;t have opinion, and if you don't have a beleif and you don't know anything....then how can you have confirmation bias? Oh but wait.....I did have a feeling, and that feeling was based on the fact...that I didn't think my mom was correct? And when it came to "things" in a general sense but expecially that had to do with going out and doing "things" or activities and just general common sense knowledge.....my mom was completely handicapped in that sense but anything mechanical or involving physical activities of any kind. Watching or following my mother down a flight of stairs what beyond painful to watch for me!!! LOL OMG!!! When you call your own mother "Grand Ma"....when you are a little kid as she's trying to wal down a flight of stairs ( in your own house ) and she's only in her late 30's....then something is ass backwards when the child becomes the teacher??? And that use to dirve me nuts....but at the same time....I did bring home a lot of new information and things that mom did appreciate.....except for those stubborn beleifs she could not get out of her head. Once she made up her mind on something......that decision was final no matter how ridiculous and asurd it was in her conclusions and the beliefs she had about things sometimes. This was the source....for every battle....for every conflict and for every fight my mother and I ever had. Without this "Confirmation Bias" there......my mother would have been more open and able to accept what went against what she believed or wanted to belief more importantly. And I specialized....as "water boy"....who came home with a cold bucket of water and and poured in on her head on a regular basis....which at the time.....I was innocently and naively not understanding what I was doing? And to the point...a good part of me still doesn't';t understand this when I do this with my wife. I never was very good at reading this in other people simply because I always want to know the truth.....no matter how much it hurts. What hurts me more.....is not knowing what it is? Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable thing....but I learned about that so long ago, I just take it for granted at times? And because I was always not knowing things and always seen as being kind of "dumb"....I always wanted to know and go find out, so I was not seen that way? The need to "know" then.....because my primary drive and since I kind of had no fear....or fear of social situations.....I just went and found out...and then came home and pissed everyone off. LOL I've already mentioned the whole Santa Claus hoax....which disappointed my entire family ( not my dad he didn't care ) but my mom and my two sisters for sure. I was only 4 almost 5....but I had already begun to doubt a lot of the things my mom would tell me, so I already didn't believe her. To have Confirmation......I just went out and found out for myself and that was just my standard MO......since "fear" was not a factor. And as my wife repsorts suffering from very much, is fear, worry, and low self esteem which is a perpetuating cycle. If you are afraid of finding out, and going out and doing it for yourself and seeing for yourself....then you have to trust or beleive other people....instead of knowing it first hand? Once you have the answer....the drive or need to know goes away and that feeling is resolved. There you go. Confirmation Bias at the heart of the matter. This is not the answer in itself, it just tells you the reason why? It is just one peice of the puzzle, but it gets you closer to knowing and knowing the truth which is at least closer to resolving things which does help me a lot. At least for me ...but I have always been this way I guess?

A funny thing I ran acroos when I was looking up aticles to read....I found a website devoted to refuting the existence of ADHD saying it is a fraud and only created to sell drugs for the pharmaceutical companies. And even now, after all that I know about it....i still hold open...any new ideas or thoughts about it, since they are always finding out new things all the time. That doesn';t mean I don't beleive that it doesn't exist though, it just means I'm open for a new and better expaination once they discover what it is? This thing where if it's not True 100%.....then it must be false.....100%.....drives me ablutely crazy!!! It did what I was 5 years old..and it still does to this day!! LOL There is NO SUCH thing as black and white......everything is always shades of grey? That's just how I see things and I can';t help it. There are laws and rules of course.....but not when it comes to people.....people are not this way AT ALL. LOL Nobody is.....that's the point.

But as I read this list of "dangers" and "symptoms of using stimulant medication" on the web site that was trying to sell you away from it.....here is the list of symptoms or "bad side effects" they listed for taking stimulant medication.....

-violence, hostility and aggresion

mania and pshychosis

-depression

-suide or suicidal idealtion

-hallucinations

-anxiety

-addictions and dependence

Okay, just for the record. They haven't done any of these things with me, in fact, just the opposite just to make that point. However, what I've seen and witnessed and by self report by my wife? She has shown or said.....all of these symtpoms and she does not use stimulant medication....even though, I think they might help her if what I think is true. I do think she has ADHD plus a host of other issues as well? But the ones on this list.....she has without taking them.....and with me....I take them...and don;t have any of the things on this list?

Confirmation Bias? I think so. LOL Again.....that was from a we site....refuting that ADHD didn't exist, and that is was only created or funded by pharmaceutical companies to sell drugs and that is what they strongly believe. I'm not going to say they are entirely wrong.....but when I looked at that list at least.....KNOW they are full of shit....if they are saying that this is only caused by taking stimulants medication!!! After what I;ve just witnessed and know for myself first hand....I'd say they are 99.9% wrong....in making that statement or premise? It doesn't mean the opposite.....it just means they are not right and that is all I know? LOL I think someone has a vivid imagination and they were looking for a bunch of symptoms in people with ADHD and saying it was from the stimulants. WRONG!!!! At least fo my wife and my mother....they would be the rare exceptions which I don';t think so, but I'm pretty darn sure they are not. At least, based on that short list, which is a good example of this none the less. Does that mean, that this list of symptoms are not, or aren't caused by taking stimulant meds? No, I think it might very well be true for some and not others? The point again, just to make sure here.....the conclusion and the beleif, that ADHD doesn't exist and that stimulant meds caused these symptoms in people ( reported who have ADHD ) come from the stimulant meds and not something else. Is wrong. That is a wrong conclusion, that is not true and not accurate and not something to believe. It doesn't tell you then what is true....what it says is.....the person who said it.....doesn't know themselves and they have made some errors in their thinking and this is not resolved. It cannot be true.....if someone who has ADHD...;.has these symptoms before taking them.....and then has them after taking them? Wouldn't that say that the stimulants....didn't cause the symptoms? It's my conclusion but what do I know? ( I'm not going to bleive them however, because I still think they are wrong ) LOL But I'm open to hear if someone has a better explanation that doesn't have those discrepancies which appear pretty obvious to me and that's all I know?
J

For J - a response

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Fri, 07/07/2017 - 13:01

Okay - I admit this right now. I just can't make it all the way through your very long posts without starting to skim...so it's possible that how I respond might not fit in totally with what you write...but here goes...

Open mind vs. narrow minded. Lots of stuff going on here. One way of thinking about the ADHD mind is 'lack of filter.' As humans we have (generally) developed ways for our minds to manage information so we can get through our days without information overload...and stay focused on what is important. One way of thinking about this is in Nobel prize winner, Daniel Kahneman's "Thinking Fast and Slow" in which he talks about 'fast thinking' (i.e. superficial, and about generalities) as the way the mind efficiently gets through one's days, and 'slow thinking' (i.e. deep thinking) as harder to access, but important for longer-term well being. As you think about 'open minded' vs. 'narrow minded' don't confuse 'activity' (i.e. looking for lots of stuff; responding to every stimulus that comes your way; being hyperfocused on understanding each and every word at the cost of not staying connected into the conversation) with quality. This would be akin to equating 'thinking about something' with 'acting in a way that furthers your goals' as being the same thing. They are not.

What you think of as narrow minded may just be a different way of thinking - i.e. deciding that something is important and holding onto it in order to free up brain space to do other relevant tasks. As an example, do you really need to waste time reading a fake news website that harps upon the old conspiracy theory that ADHD isn't real, just made up by big pharma? This has been well discredited as a theory (not to say that pharma doesn't want to sell you something - they do, but that's not the same thing as ADHD is fake.) Is spending time on that, when you could be spending time on things such as showing your wife you love her, or fixing your car (not equivalent, I know...just two options) being open minded? Or just distracted and off-task? As much as I love the energy of the ADHD mind, and the creativity it can hold, I would still argue the latter. It's a waste of time, not being open minded.

Which is not to say that you shouldn't consider many novel ideas - there is much excitement and new that can be experienced. But...

Dangers and symptoms of using medications - yes, those do exist (have you read the list of dangers for Advil? Aspirin?) And some people have those issues...but the majority of those with ADHD (over 80% according to Ned Hallowell and others) can find a medication that has no meaningful side effects. AND, the side effects of NOT treating ADHD are extremely well documented and much more frequent. This is what that site isn't saying.

will respond to questions on affairs elsewhere

So Many Thoughts and Lack of Filters

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 07/07/2017 - 18:41

There is so much I recognize in myself in all the things you said Melissa: Lack of filters, ( too much information coming in and trying to sort them out ), hyper focusing ( and as it seems to me ) hyper focus actually allows you brain to slow down and focus intently on one thing instead of 10 at once due to the fast racing thoughts...all of these things I'm familiar with and to a pretty good degree ( now ) I'm much more aware of it in the moment which is really the most important aspect I think? Okay, so recounting or reflecting on what I said and narrowing it down here. If everything is filtered throught negative lens.....then how you hear it and how you process it....could be considered "narrow minded"?   And in attempting to put "confirmation bias" into it by using your comment a means to do so.....I think what might happen comes down to either finding things that "confirm what you believe, or confirm how you feel about something....and if you hear something that goes "against" how you feel or how you see things.....then those things will be "discarded" or "dismissed" and skimmed right over which you mentioned here as well with my long posts? Using that article was just a means to show or illustrate how someone might take the most confirming thing or possibly "negative aspect of it"...and latch on to that and build an entire case around those "negatives" and make that the final conclusion about it?   As if all the positives don't exist? In other words, if you are lets say...."the glass half empty" type person by default....then and confirming evidence you hear will be making your case ( in your mind ) and you might just throw all the other "stuff" right out the window without thinking "deeper" or look more closely at all the information in order to weigh the pro's and con's and make a decision.

So taking from what you were saying...and using that as I just did, and taking the very last thing out T said to us in his office when we narrowed down what was happening between us.....he basically looked at me, and told me what he's always said which is very similar in sounding to what you said to me as well? Spending too much time in one area or place which as you said.....is a waste of time? And in turn, he turned to her which in respect to what he's not really allowed on my end, is to actually say "what bugging me". He is purposefully, stopping me or preventing me from saying "what's bugging me"....which I'm understanding as related to this issue my wife and I are having together. Closed minded....my be just "closed off" and not willing to entertain or to think about something that is a problem which is related directly to denial and defense mechanisms. And he skipped over mentioning denial but he did look right at her and mention "defensive language" ( defense mechanisms ) and directly to her face said " You do not show outwardly what you are feeling in fact, I see very little change in you as I am sitting her with you ( which is what I've been saying too )"   Her criticisms of me have been very much directed at my "inability to read her or not notice body language or verbal cues" which I think she took directly from the literature as a common symptom of ADHD.

So in respect to what I am face with and what this really comes down to ( just between the two of us for anyone else reading this ) Narrow or "closed minded" as I was saying then....might really be just her style or way of seeing things as you say? Maybe the term "Demonstrative" might be a better one to bring up here? As my T was saying to her and as he was pointing out......he has and was having a very difficult time reading her since as he said....she doesn't "show" any changes or anything "to read?" She thinks she does, in fact she is absolutely sure of it, and she is so sure and so absolutely sure that the problem is "I'm not reading or interpreting cues" and as our T pointed out, the cues he saw could mean anything or a number of things in that a very broad spectrum. But the biggest point of all, as I sat there and interjected was.....when this is "all you see.....all the time.....and there is no change or difference " when you are looking at her or observing her......I can't tell if it's one thing or the other, since I see the same thing and it's consistent as she appears to me on the outside? It is either "flat" or very "expressionless" or monotone.....or better "homogenous".....that it all looks like one thing to me, and that is "negativity". It looks "negative" ( scowling, frowning, depressed , irritated ) It sounds "negative"...tone, harshness, irritation, unfriendly sounding...and the body language as she is so sure she is "very obviously" in distress and I'm not reading this in her.......what it looks like to me, is what it always looks like and it doesn't matter which day, which hour or which moment you choose? As he was pointing this out to her to her face.....he said he see's very little changes from one time to another and the expression is always pretty much the same? Homogenous....would be the best word I could come up with? And then added in without making a big deal of going off on her....that as a package deal ( the homogenous aspect of it )....."is negative". He said, exactly what I've been saying....which was in a sense...."confirming against" what she believed herself? I know it's very hard to know what you're face is doing without looking in the mirror....but if your expression has kind of a permanent "Grimus" ( or pained ) or you "looked "depressed" and you aren't smiling...or...even without those expressions....you have very little expression at all......then how can you read or tell the difference as the other person? And then you are criticized ( negatively ) for not "reading them"?
And this is the thing I just don't get and what I cannot know for anyone else? If they are in essence....."not demonstrative".....'closed lipped" ( clammed up ) and yet...the expectation is that I can read minds...or read what is "not there"....and what I do read and hear and see is negative but in this very "generalized homogenous way".....now what?

If I am being postive and saying "nice positive things"...and she turns that ( somehow ) in a something negative.....then what can I do about that? If I am being plosive, saying things positively and trying my best to "love her" or "show her Love"....and my "loving gifts" as I am attempting to give them to her....are somehow seen as negative?   If everything is "negative" and everything that comes out is negative, and how she hears even plosive Loving things as "negative" with suspicions and distrust...."with irritation", "scowl" and "criticism" for not ....doing it right? What is right.....if everything is wrong? No matter what or how I try to be positive....it somehow gets turned into a negative and thrown back in my face as "me...not doing it right"...then in respect to what I was trying to say to you before......"nothing, no one, no matter who you are or what you do".....can "always be wrong, all the time"? And conversely......"no one, can always be right....all the time either?

So I don't know what you call that...or what "label or name you use".....but if you are "wrong"......."all the time"....and can "never do anything right".....then in my mind....something is wrong...and it isn't with me? What I'm saying is....I do lots of things not as well as I could do them, and I have my symptoms pop up and show themselves at times......but if those 10%....20%....that are negative or ( wrong as she would say ).....the 80% that is "good" and "positive" is somehow very acknowledged as if they don't exsist? Like the only thing she can see is the "negative"...and ALL THE POSITIVES never get mentioned.......I don't know what you call that....other than a "bias" of some kind?

What I have NEVER ( and I mean this absolutely as in "never" ) heard her say....."Good job....atta boy, you done good". Not once, have I ever heard those words. What I've heard instead is....."not everything you do is "bad"...you do lots of good things.

Gee....thanks alot......that's so rewarding to hear. It's like she cannot give me anything...or even throw me a bone or even the table scraps? Not even once...can she give me that....and I've had it up to my eye balls with only hearing "negatively". If you never get a reward, ackowldgment...or ANY PAY OFF....for the "postive things you do".....then that's when I say   "Fuck it".....it doesn't matter what I do......literally......it all comes back negative to me...whether it's good or bad....postive or negative....all I get in feedback is what I'm doing wrong.

Well? "Fuck it"? That's my natural response? If doesn't matter what I do, so why even try at that point? No reason I can think of, based on what I just said? If I can't even get one "good job honey".....then where's the pay off for me? And...on top of it....I am not allowed to say what's "bugging me" in front of her, even with my T sitting there with the two of us?   Fuck that shit!!! I'm going to say what ever I would normally say to anyone....she is not "special" when I have to censor "everything I say". What do I get out of this....even if I do the :"right, positive good thing and give tall to her in her Love language" What about my Love language and what I want or need? We never get to that part and I'm not allowed to say "what I don't want" so that means I'm basically "Fucked."

Not being "Demonstrative"....in my mind...is being "closed".....not open...which as I was using "narrow" possibly to define...." a narrow range" or anything coming from her that is pervasively "negative" in a very homogenous kind of way? That's all I can say. No one is wrong all the time, that much I do know for sure. And I'm really tired, of trying to figure this out....so, I'm done trying which makes it that much easier on me. I don't need to "think deeply" about it, if it doesn't matter anyway? Know what I mean? If you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't and between a rock and hard place.....I say, go to the tavern, drink some beer and go have some fun for a change? Or what ever floats you boat? That's a plosive solution in my mind and I'm not going to worry about what I can do nothing about.

Fuck it ( which I have been avoiding very hard and trying not to go there ) means....the "cord gets cut" ..."survival mode"...."snip"....."exit the program".....my mind is free of it, and all worry stops as well as any deep thinking or thoughts along these lines. But what's fair is fair...she is "free" as well whether she knows it or not? When it doesn't matter, it simply doesn't matter. No worries, no problem, no conflict.

J

To Melissa, Chevron, J and others

Submitted by Alone in Marriage on Wed, 06/28/2017 - 19:33

hi To all who have shared something with me, I am so thankful, finally I feel I have found some help, at least a listening ear (more than what I felt I got in the counselling...) and certainly understanding (co-suffering) hearts!!! This means a lot to me, guys (includes ladies!!)!

I am now going to be brave and open up something I have not dared to speak to hardly anyone because I am worried I'll be told I have gone crazy - and may be I have...in other words, I'm asking u guys to be my shrink and give me YOUR diagnosis - and this has got to do with what Melissa said in her post about a certain degree of illusion that is inherent in an affair, a point J also picked up on and Chevron mentions in her reply to me about being "split in two" while in affair.

In one way, I am not even sure if I am in affair or ever was - I fell in love unexpectantly and 'violently' with someone I got to know really well through the work I was doing - it was like discovering a soul mate, all that stuff and I dare to say I have NEVER been in love like this, I would have not believed if someone had tried to explain how it would be. Anyhow, we never were a couple although we talked about feelings for each other among many other things we talked about - we both knew we were on dangerous territory and to go beyond certain boundaries would be wrong (he's single, I am married). In other words, we knew we could not act on our feelings but had to try to forget about it all - but I have been unable, even though it was me who took the initiative to make clear we had to stop seeing each other (even under legitimate excuses). All thru this time I have had this experience that when he is not there, he IS there, with me, something akin to the experiences people have when someone they love has died and they feel that person is there with them, even talks with them, argues with them, interacts with them, in normal way, the unique way that person is. Although it is already over half a year when I called this thing off (we have seen each other since occasionally, in public places), I still have this experience, e.g.just this morning. I wake up, I am half a sleep, it's like a lingering image of him and the strong sense of his presence which I cannot shake off. What is this? Is it me grieving the loss of this person, making this up? Is it wishful thinking, somehow my heart unable to let him go? Or is this something more sinister, a form of hallucination perhaps? Or worse, as a Christian I believe in the spiritual world, is this a spiritual experience, some one or something trying to make me believe it's him when it's not - am I being deceived? Or is there a possibility this experience is real, that somehow this person I love is 'present' in my life although absent?

Whatever this is, it is difficult to reconcile it with my marriage and my marriage vows 'to forsake all others'. I live in perpetual quilt even though I've not 'done' anything - simply because I seem unable to shake this connection I have with this other person off. In my last post I described that it is soul-intimacy I am so hungry for - and this is what I have with this other person. When I have had this strong sense of him being with me, I feel strengthened and loved, in fact, I feel I love myself, just as I feel when I see him in reality. He only needs to look at me and all is calm and well within me because I feel his love and I feed from it. If this is all illusion, how can it have this affect on me? Am I going crazy...?

For Alone

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Fri, 07/07/2017 - 13:18

I feel for you. As for the question of whether or not it was an emotional affair - yes, it was. See this blog post on emotional affairs for more on this. Now, because you are no longer actively engaged with this person, it is not technically an affair. However, it has become something of an obsession, perhaps?

The questions I would start asking include: what have I learned from this experience? How can it be applied to my marital relationship? How can it be applied to how I take care of and nurture myself? What are the holes in myself that get filled up by this person, and how can I start filling up some of those same holes myself?

Importantly, there will be things you need from your partner to feel better loved (I call this being attended to) and identifying a few can help make your relationship feel less lonely. Don't try to get your husband to be just like your friend. Rather, look at what you need, and see how your husband might (creatively) help provide some of that. Is it a certain kind of attention? Touch or verbal, for example? Engagement of a certain type? Pick a few things that are particularly meaningful for you. (For example, one of the things that is really important to me is a certain frequency of sex...this took me quite a while to figure out as a driver of feeling well attended to...)

I also think that if you genuinely want to stay in your marriage and not be completely miserable, then you will need to learn how to figure out how to let the positive feelings you have when you think about this other person live side by side with the work you and your partner need to do. Perhaps you can consider the positives you feel as a long-lasting gift that your ex affair partner has given you...you can value that gift even as you set aside your daily relationship with him. Cherish the gift; follow your ethical and moral guidelines at the same time. AND, with that part of your life feeling less discordant, then focus on building on that gift with the knowledge you are gaining about yourself and your needs to work with your partner to try to get those.

This will be hard to do, but perhaps less hard than wondering as you now do about how it all fits together?

Some Progress!

Submitted by Alone in Marriage on Sun, 07/16/2017 - 20:18

Dear Melissa,

Thank you again for your thoughtful and helpful input and response. Before I wish to briefly comment on it, may I just celebrate some success with you (and others reading this): Today I have finally finished your book (I took my time as there is so much to think and mull over and try to put in practice) and last week me and my husband have had a lot of good heart to heart talks and things are really improving and being on up! I feel hope again that things can work between us two, and above all, I realise how hard it is for my husband to hear me out (especially since he knows I have feelings for another), and the fact he is putting up with me and the difficult situation shows that he really DOES love me and is trying his best to work on his side of issues plus get medication etc. This is great success, Melissa! And much of it thanks to you and this forum and the work you do! I am so amazed and thankful!

I do realise this is only the beginning of hard (day-to-day) work ahead but you have lit the path before us - plus people on this forum who so kindly keep contributing and listening in :-) So, what you say in your response, I am taking it seriously and it is an ENERMOUS relief to think the way you suggest, namely, that I do not have to forsake everything that was good about my relationship with my "friend" but try to learn from it and keep it with me for my journey ahead - perhaps this is the feeling I feel that he is WITH ME all the time, namely, his impact on me, what he has given me and the gift he gave me to SEE MYSELF and also, it was through him and the falling in love that I emerged from the denial about our marriage and started asking questions and trying to find answers as what was wrong with me & my marriage. It is impossible for me to fully forget him - it is as if he woke me up from sleep, a sleep of death to speak, a death to myself, and in fact, fairy tales ring through that this happens, someone wakes us up with their love/their kiss...BECAUSE OF HIM I learned to love myself again, I found a reason to live (because life was not all dull and dreary and difficult), a reason to laugh and have so much joy in my life - of course, because he had such an impact on my life, it is now hard to live without him and everything in me repels against the reality which I HAVE chosen, namely, to be without him for the greater good...only to discover, that in some ways, I have not lost him, he is with me all the time, in my heart - and it seems like such a cliche to say but this is my daily experience...

Having said that, C has a point about danger of illusion/imagination running wild and uncontrolled - there is a danger of unhealthy obsession and I need to figure out what is healthy and what is not which is not easy when powerful emotions are in play (those pushing me towards my "friend" namely hurt in my marriage and those pulling towards my "friend" namely unfulfilled needs, one of them, as C points out, as one of the most powerful ones would be the sexual pent up energy and frustration and the need for feeling loved and appreciated...)

But as you say to me, friends, I am not alone on this journey...this too give me so much hope I did not have before!

Alone........I Can Share One Thing w/You

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 07/07/2017 - 20:52

This is something that is difficult to talk about only in that it's not something that I'm very proud of or better, really feeling very good about saying but it is what it is and I have to deal with this on my own? From the day, ( literally ) I got divorced and went to see my T....he had a very profound question to ask and I've been working on this one for a very long time. He told me what it was a long time ago, but it's taken me this long just to see it well enough to recogize it? As he sat there and asked me to start with " A good question to ask yourself here is, why did you pick this person to be with if it only caused you heart ache and trouble? I later came to him and told him that I had a strong feeling that even though...I may have picked these failed relationships in the past....a very large part of it however was more to do with "why they picked me?" I mentioned this yesterday about how women...may times do most of the "choosing" in a traditional sense since "traditionally speaking"....men use to ask the women and the women would say "yes" or "no". I've had it work both ways but for the most part....if I was attracted....I asked...and they chose "me' out of any other men or even relationships coming to an end and I was next in line you might say? Like I've said, I been in different types of beginnings but as you mentioned....you fell "hard" and was very attracted or drawn to your H when it finally "hit you" like you 'knew you were in Love"

I've stood back and watched this from a distance and watched people when that happens...and many times...they are "fawning over each other" and sometimes it's the man fawning but mostly I see women doing this? It really depends on but I can tell you...for me at least, it was certainly an ego boost and of course it is for everyone to feel "selected" out of everyone out there...that this person would "select you"? But from that, is where the dynamic process starts to take place and how that plays out, will be determined by many things. These many things will "shape" that dynamic and how that plays out and it can be anything and everything in between depending on "approval" I think. In terms of "approval rating" as I am calling it.....this is a very subtle thing...but at first and right off the bat....."approval and reassurance" tells you if you are "doing it right?"

What my T and I have talked about at length ( mostly in the past ) was my childhood and the abuse I endured and how they shaped my own behavior. As he put it ( the hard part to acknowledge ) that unconsciously or intuitively....a person who has been abused...wil put off a "Stench" as he called...and those "sniffing out or seeking that smell" ( or attractant ) will be very attracted to that particular "Stench". And unfortunately as he initially described this.....that "stench" is really hard to wash off you and this is what I've really been focused on mostly ....for my own understanding in reflecting on the past...and for the future to watch out for certain signs that might tell me if someone is actually attracted to my "Stench"....or is it "me" they are attracted to? What I've come to find is it's a little of both....but being aware of this particular "stench" and knowing "who is it who is attracted to it"....is what my focus and being able to recognize it, is all about? That way, I can "pick better"....even if someone else seems to be picking or choosing me and understand why? This "Stench" was a good way to describe it since it is somewhat invisible ( like a real odor )...but in this case....it's an "attractive order" for some since it tells them certain things? It is the "stench" of someone who is easy to take advantage of....since I am less likely to say things at times ( or I use to ) but not anymore to be straight to the point. Not saying anything, or not speaking up....is what this "Stench" puts out there...;..and for someone who is looking for someone who is not going to "say anything or speak up" and will just "go along".....then that is a very attractive "odor" for someone who wants this in a partner? Someone who won't "say anything" or just "clam up"....as I have found that my wife does but that's just it? I remember her even mentioning this ( oddly enough ) early on when I we were first dating? She told me or asked if I was a "pleaser"...and also said one time "you need to stand up for yourself". The problem was in that situation....I didn't need to stand up for myself at all. The situation didn't call for it and not saying anything was the best course of action all things considered? It was her perception however.....that ( if it was her, she would have felt the need to say something ) which now looking back...she would have, and that would have been the wrong thing to do? As she has a habit of impulisively not thinking things through like that? I simply am, slower to react than she is...and I take my time and weight things more before I go into combat with people. Many times....doing nothing, is the best course of action?

But for what ever reason...and in a sense....the "Stench" that's put out there...still suggests a "push over" or a "yes man"....then this will be an attractive thing? Unfortunately, there are probably many small facets of this ingrained in my responses and behaviors that still put out those subtle messages and someone who is attracted to that, is looking for someone like that? Unfortunately now, this "Stench" is still on me it can really never be washed off completely. More than anything else understanding this, and keeping my eye open as to the people that it draws them to me....is the only way for me to know.....who to choose and who not to choose....when it comes "choosing time" even if they are attracted to me? It's very easy to be flattered or immediately feel like this is genuine....but when push comes to shove and you really get down to it.....what is genuine...is not exactly what that person is saying up front? Opposites may attract...but they don't always make a good match to be with someone. I think this "Stench" as he called it.....has a way of attracting "opposites" which is the unfortunate problem with this particular smell?

Iti kind of is an invitation...without actually inviting it in? It being, that kind of "Love at first sight" feeling....which I've found it not such a good thing after all? What comes with that, is not exactly Love either? It is a strong chemical kind of bond, that is more to do with this "Stench" that anything else?

Anyway....at least for me....I have been doing a lot of observing and watching others in all kinds of relationships and I think I have a pretty good handle on it, which also helps explain why this happens? At least specific to me, with my past history to go off and and the help of my T....in pointing this out and giving me that thing to think about which I have for the past 17 years with some experiences to validate what he said to me. He was of course, right on the money as usual which is not easy to say or admit...but again...that wasn't my fault either? Washing the "Stench" off me....is a very difficult thing to do as it appears?

J

It's illusions that can turn addictive...You aren't Alone....

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 07/10/2017 - 13:39

The desire to be loved, and give love is the strongest force with in man....Most of us suffer in semi-conscience states....It's similar to being high or intoxicated...(weakness to our self control, and slumber of mind) It's not uncommon for unhealthy thoughts to surface and even masturbation to take place in these times of partial alertness...

When I find myself suffering in this semi-consciousness, (lost in illusion) state... I usually end up praying (repenting) for what I was caught up in, once I'm fully awake and alert...seeking pleasure and fleshly satisfaction...I've often found it's just better to get up earlier than I want, to avoid these moments....

I attribute it to sexual frustration that is pent up in me, due to a being in close proximity to a beautiful wife who doesn't mind walking around naked or mostly naked in front of me, Yet refuses to be open and approachable... (unless in her mind it's been long enough since the last time) And of course my own fleshly weakness...If I masturbate, I try to force myself to think only my wife....It's don't always work:(...But it's wrong and dangerous in my opinion....I should be stronger, wiser and have more discipline.....

I Agree With You C

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 07/10/2017 - 15:45

Masturbation is a very interesting concept. A long time ago ( before I even realized I had ADHD ) I came to my own understanding of what I was doing? On a physical level, I was inducing or causing a release of chemicals and endorphines into my body just like swimming or any "intense physical activity" that causes the same thing to happen. Pain releaving "chemicals" that also create a sense of euphoria afterwards that remains for a while until the effects subside. This is not any different than when you do any drug to the same effect. It either takes pain away.....or it adds a euphoric feeling that counteracts any negative or stress or anxiety related "discomfort" and takes those away? It was so much like the effect that I got ( daily ) from swim worouts ( intense prolonged anarobic and arobic excersise ) that this was easy for me to recognize as being one in the same? The after effect....was the same either waym and I noticed a stonger need or urge to masterbate...when I stopped or didn't swim as much however...lthe addictive nature of having that everyday or all the time.....made it so I could not go very long without it and needed it again sonner than when that was not a daily thing in my daily routine ( swimming as it was )

All of this....I recognized years ago.....so I always associated "masturbation" or even sex with this awareness of these facts? My need...or urge....to have sex or for masturbation....was the end result or body...calling for these chemicals which sub-consciously...manifests itself outwardly ....toward the source? And the source in this case is obvious which is just how it works. And it is how it works and which is just part of our biological make up as men? Nothing ground breaking or out of the norm there.....it's just how we are made? But the fact is......we don't have to have it to survive or live and we can live without it....although, fairly unfulfilled? Unless you take a vow of chastity and do that with intention with some ulterior motive involved....you are apt to go too long without feeling fulfilled and of course....if you have a monogamous partner who is willing.....they are your only source? And without that source as a mutual participant....then "masturbation" serves as a distance 2nd place to get the same results to fill that need? But it doesn't really fulfill the need for connection to that person...it only fulfills the need for that chemical release as well as the temporary satisfaction that you get from those same chemicals. Satisfaction or being "satiated" is the goal at least...and like I said....I can get that with working out in the same way at the end of it it's all the same thing but just getting there in different ways? Getting lost in the illusion or fantasy of it all.....is getting lost in what you are actually doing and what you are trying to accomplish I think? And if you're simply addicted to it....then you are thinking anything at all? But even if you are aware of all of that.....it still doesn't mean you don't get "hungry" as I call it? When you body gets hungry....it's telling you it wants to be fed? Whether it's food or an orgasm ( sex or masturbation ) it's kind of the same thing I think? The difference there is.....you HAVE TO HAVE food for survival which is not optional.....with sex or ,masturbation......you simply do not?

What that leaves is the hunger and what you do with that? I cannot answer the moral question here as to whether it is right or wrong as I see my body this way and see what it is asking for? I know the moral question and I know different peoples opinions and I cannot answer that for anyone else but for myself and my own body in that way? All I know is......that if I just succumb to every whim and hunger my body wants and asks for....that is not the best course to take and the best answer there for sure? But denying my body of what it wants or the "food" what ever form it comes in.....may not lead to the most fulfilling balance and go "all or nothing" I've found rarely works with anything? Getting lost in the semi-unconscious or unconsious in state of "non-reality" , "fiction" and "fantasy" can serve a purpose and function in a positive way at times for different reasons. But I think....too much....or too little of anything....is where this starts to go all wrong. Denial and abstinence or "self" and living in a state of "scarcity" and "poverty"....is really not the goal I think...unless you are a Jesuit Priest? And on the other end of the spectrum.....living in a state of glut and greed, addiction and excess....is actually just going to the other extreme? I think there has to be a balance somewhere because nature always wants to find a balance and that is where real satisfaction lives I think? I've said this before and I think this is really true....that being "Okay"....is really that place of being neither "good" nor 'bad" and somewhere in between? A little hungry....but not starving.....but not eating until you are so stuffed....that now you're uncomfortable is what your body wants and needs when it comes to food after all? You body only needs....what it absolutely needs and beyond that....is just excess and waste which it does't need at all? And in the same way......if it's not enough...and you are not eating enough to provide your body with what it absolutely needs....then your body will be starved or depleted and that is also the other side of the coin?

I think just enough...and not too much or more than that....is a difficult thing for most of us to now exactly what that is or where that line is in the first place? I don't know if that's all being wiser stronger or more disciplined....to live in a state of deprivation...and not think that those things are not the problem after all? Living in a state of deprivation....does not mean you are not strong, wise or need more discipline.....it means your body needs food...and it's not getting enough to be balanced...whether it be sex, masturbation or real food after all? Just my two bits....without getting into the moral question and just looking at our bodies from a biological stand point? I think "balance' is where we get to real "satisfaction"....not swinging wildly and chasing the dragons tail?

I try and listen to my body for the most part...and keep these things in mind...as I have come to learn about myself with that awareness in mind? I don't let my body make decisions for me....but I try and listen to what it is saying a pay attention to what it says?

J

I know how you feel. Like so

Submitted by dvance on Fri, 06/23/2017 - 23:21

I know how you feel. Like so many posters here, I too am emotionally spent. I have been married to my ADHD husband for 22 years. The last five in particular have been extremely difficult. Throw in three other women that I know of (my guess is there are more, perhaps even currently), financial issues, three periods of unemployment (him), an overdose by the 18 year old (when he was 16) that we reacted to and continue to deal with in opposite ways. In January I stopped all therapy-mine and our marriage therapy. I just cannot talk any longer about the same stuff. I have this mental image of literally closing a cabinet door on my emotions with regard to my husband. There is just nothing left. He travels a bunch for work and I 100% concur with being more at peace when he is not at home. When he is home I just clam up. I hide out in our room, interact with my boys, but avoid him. It's just so tense and so much of what comes out of his mouth is so nonsensical or undermining of me that I don't even want to hear it. I don't care how his day was, I don't care where he goes when he travels, I don't care if he feels well or not. I am just out of caring-ness. I am well aware that an affair of any kind is not helpful, but part of me says go for it--get attention and care anywhere you can. Why not? Most of our ADHD spouses wouldn't notice if we burst into flames, so why not get your needs met in a way that works for you? The best advice I have received, and it was here, from C U R self--think of the things that make you happy. Now figure out ways to make those things happen more often. Period. For example, I LOVE to walk along the lake trail by my apartment. So I try to get out there as often as I can. I LOVE to go to theater and opera, so I go with friends or alone if there is really something I want to see. I LOVE to read--so turn off the TV and pick up the book. I am oversimplifying, but I hope you get the gist. It took me a long time of thinking and reflecting to even figure out WHAT makes me happy. How sad is that. Part of that, I think, is a function of being a working mom and not having all that much time to do much of anything besides what is necessary to keep a family afloat, but this summer it so happens that both of my boys are working, DH is traveling a lot and I have a fair amount of time to myself (Assistant Principal--work less in the summer). It's really hard to figure out how to make yourself happy. Most of us are in the habit of putting others first, most times out of necessity--if we don't pay the bills, do the laundry, make the dinner, etc., it won't get done, so to actually take time to pursue something for yourself takes practice, but it's worth it. I too have zero desire to fix the marriage. At home, I am existing. All my sparkle is saved for my sons and my work and my friends. At our last marriage counseling session, the one where I said we are going to live as roommates because I am done trying to make this better, the counselor expressed his worry that I would "shrivel up" emotionally. That is when I knew quitting therapy was the right decision because with regard to my DH--I "shriveled up" a long time ago. I am done and I no longer feel guilty about it. I did my time. The stresses of ADHD are way more than what normal couples deal with and they make every crisis so much worse. Every time there has been a difficult situation, instead of getting closer and pulling together, we get farther apart because his reactions to things are so different from mine. Half the time I think he picks the opposite view whether he believes it or not just to be contrary and enjoy the conflict he stirs up.

Let yourself off the hook--like literally sit quietly with your eyes closed and think about taking a jacket off a hook and lowering it to the floor. That's you. You deserve peace any way you can get it, with anyone or no one. There is nothing for you to take blame for. You didn't do it and you can't fix it. Enough. Let it go.

Thank u, dvance!

Submitted by Alone in Marriage on Sat, 06/24/2017 - 19:07

Dear dvance,

Thank u for ur reply - I've only discovered this community but I am already drawing strength from it! I am surprised to find out that even when the responses are varied they all bless me because they are written from the heart, by a fellow sufferer who UNDERSTANDS (in stead of the many who don't, including counsellors and even close friends, the rare ones I have actually told something, or at least tried). Also, the answers come from a raw and real place of personal experience.

But if you don't mind asking me, what is your reason why you haven't divorced or separated? If I understand it right, your spouse has affairs - you soul have grounds fir divorce, nobody would judge you for it(not so with me...)? Also, does living as roommates work? Do you have separate bedrooms? I guess the fact your spouse is away a lot helps (not so here...) - perhaps I need to find away to be away, even regularly, even just to try to recover from this interns exhaustion? I feel like a full-time carer whose job and burden is not acknowledged or noticed and who doesn't get breaks/rest bites...

The divorce thing is a fair

Submitted by dvance on Sat, 06/24/2017 - 19:45

The divorce thing is a fair question. There are several reasons why I don't just now. Five years ago my DH had a bout of severe depression and PTSD--he was hospitalized and then moved out for 6 months because we were all "too much for him". One son was in 8th grade and one was in 6th. I had just gone back to full time teaching literally two months before, so great timing for that meltdown. The boys had a really hard time with him being gone. For all my ranting, he is a decent enough father. He does things with them-plays endless games of cards with the younger one, works out at the Y with the older one (which I am not a fan of, but the child likes). He is another body in the house to pick up the younger one if needed, he cooks dinner, he cleans and does laundry without being asked. We are no longer actively fighting--on my end, I don't care enough to fight about anything except when it comes to the kids. Mostly we cannot divorce because we can't afford it. We have a tremendous amount of debt from him being unemployed three times in the past ten years, those 6 months that he was gone (to this day I do not know where he lived), and lots of medical debt from the older son's rehab and then follow up care, the younger son's heart condition and my back surgery from last year, plus many other smaller medical things. I am solely responsible for our finances and have a plan this summer to pay back a good chunk of those, but still not all, and we have very little saved. My older son is taking a gap year, spending 5 months out of the country, leaving in September, so I am actually pretty curious to see what DH is like with that child gone. He is what we argue about the most + he is who my DH hangs out with. DH has no friends. The only activities he does are alone or with the kids. But I digress...once our finances are in better shape and the younger one graduates from college, we will revisit the divorce issue. I am not certain all three of the other women were physical affairs (one I am pretty sure), but lines were definitely crossed. I have told him that if there is someone else he can feel free to go for it. We have not had a physical relationship in two years, so if he meets someone else, fine by me.

So the short answer to your question: financial reasons and I worry about the boys if he left again. The first time he didn't tell them--I got home from work and his keys were on the table. I had to tell them. I don't know how they would be if he left again. In two years, when they are both in college, I hope to be out of debt and perhaps downsize our living space so we could afford two apartments.

Burn out

Submitted by Chevron on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 05:59

Responding to things in your first post, Alone.

Much appreciation of your remark about being emotionally so burnt out. Remembering my own stress and confusion as my future husband and I approached marriage, we started coming off the high of his hyperfocus during our courtship, and simultanously it was looming in understanding that he had ADHD but also a lifetime of struggling with it and denying that he had it , I remember my simultaneous love of him and dread of what was appearing in the relationship as being permanent, for the duration. It's an awful thing to realize the permanency of ADHD, while not knowing how big a thing it is, what it will do to you and to your relation, how you will cope. If anything I describe is what is daunting you, just know that we know what you're doing on first discovering ADHD in your marriage is real. That he has his troubles in no way erases yours. To this day, much as I've asked and read, I dont have a good handle on what the longterm stresses of this kind of relation will do to both of us, over the long haul, or to me in particular. Not the least of it is that it is extremely difficult to sort out what is permanent and what is changeable. Much of what we talk about on this discussion board is not ADHD, it's denial. Its knowing when and why to persist and when to stop trying at something, It's dealing with fallout of actions taken. It's needing to weep, or to have someone, anyone be a witness to what was done to you, that friends, family or one's partner gaslights you saying its all in your head.

Good luck finding a therapist with enough training and clinical and life experience to be up to speed of what you need in therapy. I've been through two. The first was too young in life herself, and only superficially trained in what ADHD is. The second probably had ADHD, judging from some things like constantly asking questions but interrupting the answer before the first sentence was half out (how familiar is that??), never retaining in memory anything at all, zero, said or written according to her rquest in earlier sessions and obsessively focusing on my (absent) husband filling up the time talking about him when I was paying for her to help me with stress. When she started addressing me by my husband's first name, lol, that was it first r me. Nevertheless, Alone, it is very, very hard to find your place related to newly discovered ADHD, and to sort out your best assessment of yourself and the hope or not for change in your marital relation without professional help. Yes, do avoid judgemental therapists. They're bad news. But dont give up on learning what professionals who know more than superficialities about ADHD can tell you about it. I do believe that you wont find your grounds for doing anything different without solid understanding of ADHD.

I have enormous sympathy for having been so parched for someone's desire of you and loving attention and care. That's not my situation at home now, but I've been there, I've been there.

This is no attempt to tell you what to do, it's just one report from my past life, and a remark told to my a very long time ago by another woman

Refreshing as falling in love with someone else while still in relation with someone is, eventually it will add to your heartache. It has been better for me to end one intimate relation before beginning the next one. Like Melissa says it's more honest and caring of the first partner. I also think I have cared for myself better in doing it that way. I've not split myself in two.

Second that remark from an older woman a long time ago. She was not from my country, nor was the married man whose clandestine lover for decades she became. She, too, was in a loveless marriage. Nobody involved planned to divorce.

She said of her relation with her married lover, "He gets two companions, I get half a one" She last said she knew that she was givng her husband only parts of a marriage, while herself "getting two," the part of her marriage she wanted to keep, and the part of her lover that her lover gave her

There is something to think over about wanting two things at once.

Take care. Re your screen name, yes there's loneliness in thi s kind of relation. Perhaps on both sides

Chevron

Chevron..........You Made Some Important Observations Here

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 07/08/2017 - 09:54

Because there are so many women here and much of this conversation is related to the "woman side of things", I can point out at least, what is the same no matter which side of this you're on ( male or female ). What I've found for myself is exactly the same thing when it comes to "splitting yourself"...or "dividing yourself" between different romantic or intimate relationships. For me, I noticed this going back a long time ago when it came to simply dating with no commitment to anyone at the time? I found it very difficult in fact ( for me ) almost impossible to "play the field" and date more than one or even two woman at the same time? I found I simply can't do it, and I recognized that compared to other people ( men and woman I know ) who seemed to have no problems dating a number of people at one time and seemingly enjoying that and perfectly happy with it? I found this kind of "dividing myself up" or "spreading myself around" between different woman at one time ( dating only....no commitment ) was really exhausting, confusing and ultimately ...un-rewarding and not very fulfilling? It was superficial at best and that is what I think is attractive to some people because of the lack of demands and lack of commitment required and that suited them just fine? I've always been more of a "serial monogamist" as they call it and stuck to one person at a time for this very reason even when dating with no intention what so ever to make it permanent even when I was free to "date" as many people as I wanted to....I simply didn't want to and this did not suit me at all in other words. And this goes all the way back to my early 20's when I had no designs in getting married under any circumstances at the time. I found, having "ONE" girlfriend at a time, to be perfectly suitable for me and I tended to be very faithful even under those circumstance with ( a few exceptions.....yes there were a couple ) but in that case......it was not expressly stated that this was even "wrong to do" since there was no stated "commitment of exclusivity" and no verbal contract.

So taking from that, I can totally understand this now, and plugging that into a committed relationship as well? The contract or agreement......does not change this or make that any different I think which makes sense if you think about it? It felt just as lonely ( with multiple people dated at once ) as it did when I was "alone" with no "girl friend" at all but, at that time in my life...I was plenty busy and was not settled down at all? I had a lot of different friends with shared interested and my circle of friends was my "family" as said, so loneliness was not an issue in fact.....dating or being committed to anyone ( girlfriend ) at the time...was an intrusion on my close relationships with my male friends and they were my top priority along with those activities that we all shared together? And in respect to my "commitments" or who or what I was committed to.....a full time girlfriend ( even one ) was already "too much stress" and one too many commitments to what I already had? Which was exactly why, I didn't want a full time relationship or girlfriend since I was already divided as thin as I felt comfortable with? My priority at the time....was not a full time "girlfriend" simply put. So this thing you are describing I think can extend to other commitments and not even "people" when you stop and think about it?

Which now in context.....is what I think happens when married to someone with ADHD. It's not all about "people" in that case......it's getting "divided too thin" or into too many parts and there is not enough left for "ONE THING". or another which also includes people into the mix? Work and "house chores" seems to be the main focus of women...as the main complaint where they have to "pick up the slack" and do more than is "fair" logistically speaking.

But those things are logistical and easy to see where the inequities lie? I think what's underneath that and more directly related to ADHD and the emotional burn out is still the same thing whether it be for a man or a woman? As I was thinking about myself and how I feel right now and why? It's not because I feel the "work load" or anything "logistical" is "unfair" since as it is with my wife since she is a woman....her priorities and what's most "important to her" revolve around the same things and the same complaints that I hear all the time in this forum as well as from other sources as well?   As I'm thinking about this, I don't have a "feeling of unfairness" or "inequity" in that sense that it's "not fair" or my wife is being "unfair" to me in any way? What I feel, is my wife's expectations are unreasonable....since she "expects" me ( or feels somehow entitled ) not to "think for her self"......"problem solve for herself"......and "figure things out" for herself..and somehow....this has become "my job" which is kind of ridiculous when you see those things as a list of things she is "not doing".   That, and to actually demand "help"....to regulate and control her "moods" and to :"regulate" her emotions...." for her". As if somehow, that is my job, to figure it out for her, yet she hates that at the same time?

What you said here is right to the same point I'm saying as well. There is something to think over about wanting two things at once.    In respect to wanting "two" things at once ( or even more than two, or three...or even four things ) ..,.people do this all the time so that is not really the problem. The problem is, ( as Ambivalence states: "two incompatible or incongruent "things" ...ideas, wants, needs or desires....at the same time ) which is exactly what the problem is with my wife as it comes through to me? She wants or needs me to "take care of or monitor her emotions, moods, and state of mind    .....for her".......but at the same time, Hates it when ( myself or anyone else ) tries to help her or attempts to overtly do this for her" AND....she has no idea she is doing this and this is completely outside of her awareness"....right to the point.

This very thing came to a head the other night ...and I simply got fed up with it and called her out and told her off from having her snap and get angry with me one too many times for doing this very thing which I finally was able to pin it down in the moment which she got very upset and at great protest that I did this.....but I simply don't care anymore and I am simply tired and not going to allow her to "burn me out" like this anymore. It's just relentless and it is "unreasonable"....as I'm seeing it.....not "unfair" as I feel for myself? "Fairness" has little or nothing to do with this in my mind at least and is not how I feel about it at all?   "Tired and worn out by it? Absolutely, but I am also very aware of that, but still, with no means to stop it or control it since I cannot "control her emotions" and her "ability to think". Her inability on her.....is what requires me to do "more of it for her" which is exactly what comes from this? It "sucks" from you....what you normally wouldn't have to do, so this is not a "male" or "female" problem with ADHD but just shows up in different areas but it's all the same thing and leaves you with the same results in how you feel at the end of it? What I'm saying is.....I'm a man ( forgetting about my ADHD for a moment ) and I feel the same way for the same reason ...because of this "sucking or draining" effect....that comes from the deficeit or what "that person isn't doing for themselves"....simply put. It simply doesn't matter what it is....if it's something you should be doing for yourself ( no matter what it is ) and someone else is having to do that for you.....then you are not "doing your job and responsibility".....no matter what you apply this to? It doesn't matter what area you apply it to, the effect on the other person is the same?

And to give you the direct example I'm talking about with my wife the other night as I came to this and basically chewed her out for doing it ( one too many times ) is this ritual habit she has when she speaks...and posing everything into a question? For example :

"I wonder what why that happens?" .... "I wonder why they do that?......."I wonder................"   This is the first form it comes in which is in the form of these rhetorical questions. The problem with that is, she uses them in almost everything she says to the point, you cannot tell anymore if they are rhetorical at times which makes this exasperating to figure out what she expects you to say? If you don't respond ( as one would with a rhetorical question ) sometime she'll go "well? are you ingoring me?" in a rather sarcastic tone which means....that was a real question and I didn't respond? But then again, a few minutes later....she will do the same thing again, and now you will start to answer her...and then she'll stop you and go " I'm not interested in what you're saying.....I feel like you are teaching me, or lecturing me?" Like WTF!!! I would not have answered her at all, thinking it's just another one of her "millions of rhetorical questions" she poses in every other sentence, and I would rather NOT waste my time in even saying anything....if she hadn't "asked a question?" She cannot speak....without "asking questions" which leads into the other form which is even worse in my mind. As she says it "Why are those people doing that? "....."Why is that person turning left when the sign says "No Turns?" I don;t know how many times, I fell for that one and took the bait there? Like DUH????? The real answer there is "Who Fucking cares? That's the answer I would like to give, but in an effort to "answer the question"....I tend to and especially if I am not "listening intently to her which is the only way you can tell".....that I am accustomed....in an effort to be polite and to acknowledge someone.....is to answer their questions when asked?   A person "normal response" when someone asks you a question...is to answer them or else...risk being "rude" and "disrespectful" which is just "bad manners" to sit there and stare at them blankly and not say anything? Or just look "stupid" ...":oblivious" or like you are not paying attention? Any or all of those are possibilities, but as I was "chewing my wife out over this".....I said "well, you know, when I was a little kid, I was taught, to respond to people out of courtesy and nothing else....apparently, you never learned that one at home I guess!!!" And all of what I just said, is true or at least, for me it is? Courtesy....dictates an "answer" more than anything esle...and to "not answer" is to be "rude"...which is what I told her straight up? As I told her also as I was saying this that "I was conditioned out of politeness and courtesy" to answer someone's questions and you pull that on me all the time, when I don't mind read you and "choose not to answer" because you speak "rhetorically" in almost every single sentence. This is not "normal" so I have to "guess" which one with you and if I "guess wrong" then you get pissed or irritated with me and then blame it on me for your failure and dysfunction? ( god damn it LOL ) since I was pissed off at that point?

And her response to me about the latter version in that "Why is that person turning when the sign says NO Turns?" as she said, I guess that's just sarcasm.....and I went Huh? You mean, what you'r really saying is....."That person is turning where it says NO TURNS"....isn't that what you are saying? And she said "yes I guess it is? And I said." What do you mean you "guess? You don't know? So, words are just coming out of your mouth and you have no idea why? And you aske a stupid Fucking question....that really deserves a stupid fucking answer like......who Fucking CARES????"   Well, next time you ask a stupid fucking question.....I'm going to give you my stupid fucking answer and now you know why? I also added into it....."and it's none of your Fucking bussiness......which I will include in my answers to you now?   How do you like them stupid fucking answers to your stupid fucking questions? Who's the rude one here and who's not being respectful OR courteous? Next time you do that to me agains, you will get what you deserve? Ask a "stupid question....and you'll get what you descerve." She of course, didn't like that, but I made my point which I think she got this time. I put her on notice since I've asked her to stop doing this years ago now, and she won't stop....so this is the new game plan. I will respond in kind, and let her know exactly "why" I'm doing it? I also told her, she'd do better with someone less intelligent than her since they might let her get away with this because I am totally on to what she is doing?

The fact of the matter is, she has no awareness of what she is doing....but if you ask someone nicely to stop ( hurting you or offending you in this way ) and they relentlessly will not stop..,..then I guess another means to let them know is in order....straight up, to the point and not allowing it to slide? But in order to do that....you have to know what "IT" is? It took me long enough to figure it out, but once I did, it pissed me off. It isn't ":unfair"...it isn't "hurtful" or damaging.....what it is....is that person telling you what they think of you....and letting you know how little you mean to them and how they see you? That is....in my mind, exactly what they are doing? It goes a step beyond ":disrespect" is dives down deeper to :"contempt" and 'hatred" of you?

Like I said.....on one hand, my wife demands you do this for her...and on the other hand.....she hates you for having to do it for her? My answer to that at this point if "Fuck you"....."figure it out for yourself, it ain;t my job, to think for you and if you think it is....then I will let you know, what I think of that as well as how I feel about how you feel about me, when this goes unprovoked and is totally uncalled for? If you are damned if you do...and damned if you don't....then "Fuck You" is the appropriate response when someone is showing contempt for you...when you are only trying to be courteous? As would be expected and appreciated under normal conditions? This isn't just "rude" or "disrespectful"....it's a sign of hatred and contempt? Well, you get what you paid for and what you put in....but doing it out in the open and directly speaking and spelling it out instead of this "backstabbing, chicken shit" way....is the only way I've found to shut that down and make it stop?

And in response, my wife reiterated....."well, I'm leaving anyway".   Good riddance, under those conditions I say? That's Bullshit in my mind right there and who needs that kind of grief? Life is too short, to waste it on someone unwilling or not "wanting to" help themselves at the end of the day. That is a waste of time, to waste it on someone who is "unwilling to put in the work and the effort"...and only says....:"I don't want to and I don't care" Or...."I'm leaving"? That is simply lame is all I can say? Good riddance, with that kind of attitude? It' the attitude itself, is 90% of the problem in my mind and that is a choice, not a condition of ADHD.

J

Here It Is.....What I Do Not Understand

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 07/08/2017 - 12:26

So, my wife says that it would be really great if we can sit down and discuss her leaving and do it a civil manner with the idea of helping each other though this which I wholeheartedly concurred with her that I would like that very much ( the civil way with the idea of helping each other ). But then, tells me she has spent hours, looking for a place that she wants ( for herself to live in alone ) which boils down to a manufactured home in a nice area that she can afford? Okay, no problem there, but then she tells me all the reasons why she can't find what she wants and she's already looked and the banks won't loan give her a loan....blah blah blah. Then she says....will you help me find a place?

My answer to her was.....there is no way I can pick a place for you that would suit you? You are very particular and that would be impossible to do since you will shoot down everything I would pick for you and find something wrong with it. Sorry, that would be a waste of my time. I told her already that she should find a place or contract by owner and see if she can lease to buy, or rent to buy directly from the owner...and she told me why she can't do that and how "her friends say this won't work and she gave a whole bunch more answers or reasons why that won't work and on top of it, she added "and I'm not going to spend a huge amount of time driving around to different parks ( as her friends told her to do ) and see if she can find one for sale by owner.

So again, she's coming to me saying I need help, but what she is really saying is "I want you to do it for me".. This is a "quick sand pit" right there and there is no way I'm stepping in it plus, she is being dishonest. She doesn't want "help"...she wants me to do it for her which is again, just an example of her completely dishonest way of communicating with me. So I said it again...."Why don't you find a place for sale by owner?"....and her response to me again was...."I've spent hours already looking and I didn't see anything plus my friends say the same thing" ...which means, she thinks they don't exist and so do her friends.

I put in "one goggle search" and came up with nearly 20 different homes exactly as I said while she was standing there talking before she even finished what she said. ( in less than 30 seconds ) And then she says, "well, maybe we could go look at some of those together tomorrow....that would be fun and interesting?"

And I said, "For who...would that be "fun and interesting?"

I have to say this and there I really can't see any other way out of this? This is "mental impairment"...."cognitive dysfunction"....not ADHD? Plus, she trusts and beleives her "female friends" who apparently don't now shit from shine-ola and now about as much as she does which is what they agreed on as well.

But does she believe me, or come to me for answers and trust what I'm saying? What I am to her...is a "Nigger"....if you were to use that word...to describe how she see's me? ( her stupid servant / slave...who doesn't know shit? ) This is "prejudice" and a "distrust of men". That is all I can see......like WTF???? "Man Hater"....would be another word for it? Good riddence is all I can say?

J

Reeling back in

Submitted by Chevron on Sat, 07/08/2017 - 19:10

Thanks for your last two posts, J. Just on the being the advisor or executor of finding a place for your wife, I think your instincts are right not either to get very much involved in the search or to do the hunt for her. If she wants to make a break from you, she needs to do it herself, starting at the beginning of it and carrying it through. My opinion. She's a grownup.

She was living on her own before the two of you got together, right?

I've occasionally done preliminary legwork helping friends find a place to live, before they arrive in town, and its played out the way you sense it would with your wife, and we didnt have so much on the line as you and your wife do between you. I never ever found a place for a friend that was satisfactory to them. Different tastes, different needs, different ideas of what was a good neighborhood, etc. Exactly as you say.

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