I'm not sure where to begin without writing a novel. I'll keep it as short as I can, but this is a doozy. I've been reading 'The ADHD Effect on Marriage', and this led me to come here.
This is my second marriage. I had a very brief marriage in my 20s with no children resulting. That partner had OCPD, and was meticulously organized. Too much so, in fact. And very controlling. So it's no surprise that I chose a second husband who was the opposite -- spontaneous, outgoing, and utterly disorganized. My now-husband of 13 years (living together for 14) was diagnosed with ADHD plus anxiety and depression several years before I met him, and confessed to me that he had had a *past* porn and phone sex line addiction. His is a Jekyll/Hyde personality. I fell in love with him because he was 'nice' and 'kind', and seemed to love children. He came across as a brilliant, funny, sweet, and kind man who was interested in many of the same topics I was. We had long conversations about everything, and our sex life was pretty good while we were dating. He convinced me that the sex addiction was in the past.
His mother was controlling and difficult, and insulted and criticized me when we visited her home and my now-husband stepped out of the room. She has a history of histrionics, and of being controlling and critical. And I'm not the first woman in my husband's life who had serious problems with her. She's part of the backstory and stress. His sister is very cold, and my husband has said she's been verbally abusive to him. But he continues to reach out to her. Her husband was jailed for assaulting his mother and brother, and is a very disturbed man who doesn't work due to mental health issues. He also threw my husband's mother against a wall and called her "a Hungarian whore" a few years ago. I'm afraid of having my daughter around my sister in law's husband because I don't trust that he will not explode at her or harm her at some point one day. They are also part of the backstory.
My family treats my husband with respect, even when they know he has problems. I'm not comfortable with or able to relate to a family as dysfunctional and hostile as my husband's. But I was polite to them for over 13 years.
Nearly a year after we began dating, just after he proposed to me, he was fired from his job. We moved in together anyway, and the problems began immediately. I saw his mood swings, which were extremely severe. He'd lie in bed all day and do nothing. He would spend days on end not applying for work, and when I asked him to focus on finding work, he'd yell at me. One day, shortly before we got married, he was angry with me, yelled furiously, threw packages of frozen meat down on the kitchen floor, and stormed off. I remember that my heart was racing, I cried for a while, and I wondered if I should break the engagement. In the end, my love for him overcame my concerns, and I married him.
The past 14 years have seen frequent cycles of his severe mood swings that often seem to have no relation to any particular trigger, though seasonal triggers such as traumas related to his mother's Holocaust experiences affect his mood, as does the winter (SAD). He also has cycles of yelling (which he claims is not actually yelling, just raising his voice in anger; I'm not sure what the difference is, but he says I'm too sensitive to his raised voice and that I'm the one misinterpreting) at me and at our 9 year old daughter. He is rude and belligerent toward me, but then often blames his behaviour on me. Truth be told, I *have* become upset and angry, especially now that we're in a situation where he's depressed and unable to work, and has drained my significant retirement savings fund during his many bouts of unemployment. When I remind him of this, he tells me that he never asked me to use my retirement fund. (Yes, but what was the alternative? Starvation?) We've gone from earning over $100k a year together to living under the poverty line in just a few years. I'm afraid of being homeless. I'm a professional with a PhD, but haven't yet found full-time work after graduating last fall. This is not an easy situation to be in. (Understatement alert!)
He has lost many jobs due to his ADHD symptoms, but just as important I think are the anxiety and depression. He doesn't realize how he comes across to others.
He has never hit us, though he has thrown things down on the floor and stormed off when angry, as per that first frozen meat incident. He has no patience, and it takes almost nothing to set him off. He is particularly triggered by his family of origin, and responds to me reactively as if I'm his mother or his sister, criticizing him, as they did throughout his youth. I'm expected to be a saint, and not be upset. He is very self-absorbed -- so much so that even when he seems to know that he has started a fight due to his symptoms, he simply blames it on his meds. E.g. "I'm underdosed/missed my dose/had no money to buy my dose. Don't you understand?? Just leave me ALONE!" Last year, he lost his meds during a household move, and had a full-scale episode of yelling at me and at our daughter. My daughter told me that she was afraid. I nearly left him then and there. Yet I stayed. He blames it on the medication withdrawal, and thinks I should forget it. After one angry explosion, he texted me that he was sorry for being such a jerk (His words). Unfortunately, I've come to see that the 'nice' guy I married has a very strong tendency to be exactly that.
Last February, he cheated on me online for what he claims was the first time. I was sleeping soundly at about 3 am, and he awakened me to tell me that he'd just cheated, and that he was so sorry, and would never do it again. And that the woman had turned out to be a scammer who had threatened to tell everyone on his friends list. He claimed that it had only lasted a few minutes, and that it hadn't progressed to taking off his clothes. But I had a sense that he was lying. So I logged into his e-mail and Facebook accounts on my laptop. (I had never done this before because I had previously trusted this man with my life. I KNEW he would never cheat on me. It never occurred to me that he was that type of man.)
When I read the chatlog, I almost vomited. The interaction had taken place over a few hours, not a few minutes. He was trying very hard to arrange technical access with her over Facebook, and then it moved to video chat. The female scammer had offered to show him parts of her body, and he replied "Oh, you don't have to do anything special for me. . ." He commented on how beautiful her body was. Then they went to chat, and apparently, what happened then is that he did indeed undress and begin to masturbate as she put on a show for him. She then took a photo and tried to extort money from him. The oldest trick in the book. He had lied to me.
I should mention that at this point, we hadn't had sex in 3 years. I've gained a lot of weight during the marriage, so I've blamed myself. But the unremitting stress of this marriage plus undiagnosed hypothyroidism have both contributed. He wouldn't touch me, but was masturbating for a stranger. I would never have thought it of him, but had this woman not proven to be a scammer, I'm certain that he would never have told me about the incident. He woke me up in the middle of the night to reveal this to me and break my heart (and immediately lead to my plans to leave him, that are still in mind) because he thought she would contact me first.
I then made the mistake -- still in tears and having no idea what to do -- of reaching out to his family. I was in a terrible state when he revealed this to me, and I was reaching out to everyone in my family and in his to gain support. Their response was to pretend to be supportive, but to then e-mail my husband to suggest that I was the cause of his mental illness and cheating, and that they'd like to invite him over to talk to him about that. My husband didn't confront them about this; he still has not done so. He has not defended me against his family's verbal abuse of me over the years because he doesn't like to make waves, and as he puts it, they're "his family". So after I learned that they were blaming me for his cheating, finally, after 13 years of smiling at them, I e-mailed the relatives to tell them that what they had done was hurtful. They responded by denying they had done anything wrong, telling me that I was the problem, and cutting me off and excluding me from invitations. Any invitations they send are specifically addressed to my husband and daughter, as if I don't exist. My husband has never confronted them about this inappropriate exclusion. In fact, my husband thinks that my hurt and anger at his family is the core problem. (I'd been almost super-nice to them for 13 years by that point, and tolerated more than anyone should.)
I made plans to separate from him, and was ready to implement when he promised to adhere to certain conditions that might restore my trust. He admitted to being a sex and porn addict, so he promised to attend weekly sex addict meetings. He went a few times, but then found them inconvenient, so he stopped. He also agreed not to use the internet downstairs alone late at night. He adhered for a few weeks, but then slipped into old patterns again. I have no idea if this includes more online dalliances, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. The point is that he didn't adhere to this basic promise. Finally, he agreed to allow me to access his e-mail and Facebook any time, so I felt comfortable. Once again, he allowed it for a few weeks, then changed his passwords. I've reminded him of his promises, and asked for the passwords many times over the past year and a half, and he claims he'll give them to me, but he never has. So really, he hasn't taken responsibility for mending what he did and giving our marriage a chance of some kind. I sometimes wonder if he's doing all this at some level to end up divorced and sad. He's comfortable when he's depressed and anxious, oddly. Rather, it's his comfort zone even though it's awful for him. It wouldn't take much for him to show that he's willing to do his part. But he's just not doing it. Self-sabotage? I wish I knew.
I let his shirking of his promises go for a while, because I'm so numb due to this marriage that I have to choose my battles. But because he didn't keep his promises, he's never done what it took to regain my trust. I've continued to do all the usual domestic things a wife and mother does for the family to maintain a sense of normalcy, to apply to jobs to try to turn things around financially, and am launching a business to make a living to support the family (he's on disability now after being fired again, this time after only 2 months on the job, back in December). I try to keep as calm as I can even though I'm lonely, sad, and angry at being betrayed, and at his unwillingness to confront his family about blaming me for his ills, and for specifically excluding me from all family invitations.
Over the past 8 months, since my husband was fired, his up and down moods have been intolerable. He's either yelling or lying on the sofa or in bed. And I've now also become sad and irritable, and am crying a fair bit in recent days due to his ups and downs of mood, but I'm trapped as I have no money to leave, and I'm afraid of his dysfunctional family. His sister is a lawyer, and I'm in a vulnerable position having lost all my money due to this man's job losses. I've never felt this low in my life. I basically cope during the day because I know I have to be strong for our daughter. And also, I keep hoping for a miracle that I know won't ever come. I don't want to be divorced a second time, and with a young child to take care of. But I'm absolutely miserable in the marriage. It has hurt too much for too long, even prior to the online cheating.
Whenever my hurt about his cheating last February comes up, he replies by yelling a variation on "I've apologized to you a million times! What more do you want from me???" But again, he hasn't done anything to display love for me, initiate sex, or show that he's changed. He simply hasn't bothered, and this makes me feel unlovable.
Yesterday, after a year and a half (and I realize that I may be judged for this), I found my husband's phone (which he frequently misplaces) in the car, and it was unlocked. I took the opportunity, and checked the phone for any conversations with other women. (As I've mentioned, he'd changed his passwords anyway, even though he said I could have access to help to reassure me that I could trust him.) I didn't find any salacious messages, fortunately, though he may have another account I don't know about. But I did find correspondence from his sister again inviting him over with our daughter, and excluding me. And I learned that he was back in touch with a woman who had been a friend of his, but who treated him like a surrogate husband and was jealous of me. He has admitted that he withheld the information about being in contact with her again from me deliberately, as he knew I'd be upset.
On one hand, I was relieved that there were no other women in evidence. On the other, he continues to lie to me, and he has a habit of lying in general when it will get him out of 'trouble' with people. I realize that in the scheme of things, what I found wasn't anywhere near the level of finding out about an affair. But when I told him I'd accessed his phone, he was furious with me, and made that the focus of the argument for the evening. Again, before his infidelity, I never mistrusted him, and *never* accessed his e-mail unless he asked me to. But since then, I have very little trust (and he did initially say I could access his e-mail and Facebook). I do feel it's a good practice to help heal from an affair; I've read about the importance of e-mail and social media transparency in healing from breaches of trust in marriages, but he disagrees. So on one hand, I am interested in others' perspective of this. Was I wrong to access his phone even though he had initially given me access?
On the other hand, I realize this is not the main issue. The primary issue is that this is a dysfunctional marriage, and I'm suffering. (And he's suffering too, and I feel bad or I would not have lasted 14 years, but he's also bringing me down with him.) I can also imagine a scenario where I'm older (I'm in my late 40s; he's in his early 50s) and get sick and he's simply unable to take care of me financially so I feel protected. I never feel safe or protected by him.
Our child is remarkably happy, but she doesn't like it when mommy and daddy argue either. We're seeing a marriage counsellor tomorrow, but I have to admit that if I still had all of my money, or if my business were doing well, I'd want to live in separate places right away just to make the constant arguments stop. I can't be reduced to weeping twice a week any longer. My mental health is important too, and I have to be in a balanced, happy place to be able to earn a living and be there for our daughter.
So I suppose what I'm also asking is -- is there any hope whatsoever here? Can someone like this change enough to make a marriage viable? And how do I handle his family's exclusion of me? It is a serious issue for me. Not that I want to see them -- I just want the courtesy and respect of not being written out of the story as if I'm unworthy.
Final point: He's well-liked and his public persona, especially on Facebook, is that of a nice guy. He's even revealed his mental illness there, garnering much sympathy. I'm worried that if I leave such a 'nice guy', his friends (and he has many) will all assume I was the problem, and he'll likely feed that perception because responsibility is not as easy for him as blame. I just couldn't bear that.
There are new developments, though. A few months ago, I decided that I need to take care of myself and begin a new life. I've lost 40 pounds on a sensible diet, and feel better physically. I still have about 100 to go. I began to tell my husband more about how his behaviour has affected me. Sometimes, this has involved my being emotional and crying. This has only made him yell at me more. He says he can't deal with it. But I need to feel able to tell him how serious this situation is. I suspect that losing weight has been a side effect of taking care of myself for the first time in years. I also believe that he's not really that thrilled that I'm engaging in self care.
Thanks for reading this. It's a soap opera, and I can't believe I'm living in it. Thank you for reading, and in advance for any comments.
Astromom
Hi. Welcome but sorry you
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Thanks for your reply! What a
Submitted by astromom on
Thanks for your reply! What a situation. I hear you about the (possible?) infidelity. I'm sorry to hear that it was too much to bear and led to divorce, but I hope that being apart from him has been healing for you.
When my husband told me about his online cheating in the middle of the night, I felt that way too, and everything came crashing down. My previous trust in him, built up over 13 previous years, vanished, and it never returned. Prior to that, even when he was moody, I always told myself that he was fundamentally honest and that he would never cheat on me -- that I could trust him deeply. When he did what he did, I no longer had that 'buffer' to remind me that he was basically a good guy. So after that, every time he yelled, or had an episode of agitation or stomping around, or had a bill payment returned NSF, I no longer had a bedrock sense that he was fundamentally good and kind. And that has made the difference for me between continuing to tolerate his other behaviours and thinking of an exit plan.
In my case, the exit plan involves having enough money to do so. When he cheated, I was in the process of finishing the writing-up of my PhD dissertation. I was actually at a critical writing phase just then. Kind of made me think about the timing. (He hated and resented my PhD studies.) Anyway, because I was still writing up, I was vulnerable, and didn't want to disrupt my PhD by leaving him just then (I was in a time extension -- any further delays would have meant possibly being asked to leave the program). I graduated in October, 2015, so being a non-student for the first time in a decade is very fresh. The challenge now is having enough money to be independent.
astromom....
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I have not endured half of what you have gone through and I AM sorry. May I suggest re-reading your own post to perhaps help you "see" that you are not the only one involved in this situation.....This is WAAAY more then adhd.
The two things that stood out to me, in ALL you said..... " He also has cycles of yelling (which he claims is not actually yelling, just raising his voice in anger; I'm not sure what the difference is, but he says I'm too sensitive to his raised voice and that I'm the one misinterpreting) at me and at our 9 year old daughter."
"and had a full-scale episode of yelling at me and at our daughter. My daughter told me that she was afraid".
I am more concerned about her than HIM or your marriage. I cannot imagine what SHE is thinking/feeling.......
My own girls" suffered" from my own "blindness" at not thinking of how they were seeing things. I spent way too much time FOCUSED on my spouse( how IMMATURE was I?)......they paid a price they DID NOT OWE. They, like me, thought if I could just DO better, BE better. SOMEHOW, SOMEWAY....your daughter is being effected by the SAME thing YOU are( and LOOK what it is doing to YOU) and she does not have the ability to cope......she is a child.
Do you think your daughter doesn't "pick up" on your emotions concerning your H? YOU need to re focus on YOU(mentally) AND your daughter. Attend to what matters more.....the well being of you and your daughter.
Thanks for your comment. I
Submitted by astromom on
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate the concern, and share it. I'm sorry to hear of the effects on your girls in your situation. That must have been awful for all of you.
You wrote
"May I suggest re-reading your own post to perhaps help you "see" that you are not the only one involved in this situation."
Well, this is a public forum, and I'm condensing 14 years into one posting. I'd ask that I (please) be given the benefit of the doubt that that I'm very well aware of the effects on my daughter, and I'm also quite aware that I'm not the only one involved. There are many, many nuanced aspects of this relationship I've omitted because this was already becoming a novel. And if he were not also a loving father (when he's not in an agitated state) who is adored by his daughter, I would never have stayed this long in the first place. But no two situations are alike.
If anything I was focusing more on his behaviour, and on my response to it, because I'm his yelling target most of the time. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of her. On the contrary. I'm considering her needs and attending to them constantly, every single day.
It's absolutely understandable that there would be concern about the child in this situation. Being closest to it, I'm most concerned of all. And if he had ever hit her, I'd have been out the door instantly. He has not. I'm not minimizing the effects of yelling and agitation by any means, but there are shades of grey in every situation.
My problem now, which led me to write here in the first place, is that I'm reaching my limit with him, and that I'm considering leaving for my sake, *and* that of our daughter.
But I appreciate your perspective.
Astromom, I can relate
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Astromom, I can relate to your situation. I left my husband 6 months ago, after a 33 year marriage due to many similar problems you talked about in regards with having a husband with ADHD. My husband was diagnosed around 10 years ago, and has been on meds, but took himself off them, as well as not having behavioral therapy. He didn't want to acknowledge that his ADHD and other issues were having a severe effect on our relationship.
My husbands family is also very dysfunctional, and THAT is where he learned how to "function" in relationships. My husband treated me much the same as you describe. We could talk about LOTS of different things, and were also great friends,but just don't bring up any personal or intimate/relationship issues. My husband will NOT discuss anything involving "emotions"., and says,"I have a very high IQ, and emotional feelings are things I just don't have much of". But yet he ended up having a long term affair (3. Years) and then told me several months "I love you, but I have never been IN love with you".Plus, he went on to say he never got over his college love, and was still in love with HER, and they had been in contact.
It has been devastating, because he LET me believe all these years,that he WANTED to be married, and didnt tell me different. He even prided himself in staying with me because he was "doing the right thing." BY STAYING? Why is THAT the right thing? The RIGHT THING to do is WORK AT your marriage, and love your wife/spouse, and cultivate THAT relationship instead of letting it die, and not turning to other women to fillthe empty hole inside of him.
Im often amazed by his "logic", or as J would say, his RATIONALIZATION for doing what he is doing. What I know now is, he never loved me like I loved him, he looses interest in things VERY FAST if they dont give him a narcissistic supply, and he cant work a job and have a sustained relationship at the same time. Its either or, but not at the same time.
I had to find out why I chose him, and agreed to marry him, which I have, and that has also been enlightening. But STILL it doesnt excuse my husband from not living ip to his end of the marriage vows.
My health has severely deteriorated since being with him, from the stress, pain, chaos in our house and our lives, and lack of attention and love.
He also wanted lots of my affirmation, attention and love, but didnt give it in return. He wouldnt even DISCUSS the differences in how we both perceive this. We cant solve anything between us if he wont talk about things we NEED to talk about.
I have felt every emotion you can THINK OF. I've been sad, mad, hurt, betrayed, felt remorse and tons of shame and guilt. I dont want a divorce, but I dont see how we can recover due to his denial of his issues, and our issues. I had to walk away, which financially I couldnt afford to do,but emotionally HAD to do. I hope you find some comfort in these forums, they are very insightful and helpful.
Wow, I'm so sorry to read
Submitted by astromom on
Wow, I'm so sorry to read about your situation. Lots of overlap here, and the key in your situation seems to be that your ex wasn't willing to look at his behaviour or take responsibility.
In my case, it's similar, except that my current husband claims he wants to take responsibility, and says all the right things about taking responsibility. He even pointed me to Melissa Orlov's recent book, and has been reading it himself. But when it comes to in the moment interactions, he doesn't translate what he claims he knows to be important into concrete action. Then he is upset that I'm not giving him credit for taking responsibility, and is quick to blame me for many things even though he knows that he's contributed enormous pain to the relationship, and to me.
He also doesn't have the empathy he imagines he does, because he still seems to be unable to put himself in my shoes at times when he's been callous or hurtful to me. It's all about him -- his situation, his extenuating circumstances, his brain chemistry, his whatever. It's all 'get out of jail free' and my needs aren't as important. Instead, he focuses on my response to the thing he did that was a problem in the first place, and how awful it was for him.
He even yelled at me and stormed out the birthing room when I was three days into labour and was having a contraction and running a fever, and I yelled at him, as many women do in hard labour. Because he couldn't put his needs after those of his wife in hard labour. To this day, on the rare occasion it comes up, he yells at me that I should be over it by now. But he never made amends for it, or even acknowledged how yelling at and storming away from me as I was vulnerable and in pain might have affected me.
I think he wants to see himself, and be seen, as someone who takes responsibility. But in the end, he just doesn't know what to do day by day, moment by moment, to do that.
In the end, I'm still left without a partner who takes responsibility. He doesn't have the tools to know that he doesn't know. And that poses its own frustrations, because he speaks and writes so well that everyone assumes he's on top of things.
He's not. Something very big is missing from his ability to fully be present and empathic in a relationship. And I've changed a lot since I met him -- so much so that my expectations are higher, and I know this doesn't meet my needs. I doubt he can change, though we've just begun couples counselling, and the counsellor recommended we put off separation to see what happens during counselling. I'll need to make choices based on what I see in front of me in the coming months.
Wishing you courage and strength, and good luck during this transition.
For Astromom
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Welcome to the website, and I'm so sorry that you've been going through all of this. There are a few things that I think need to be said here...I'll try my hardest to be concise.
One person cannot fix a relationship. Both people have to be involved. It is possible that a really good therapist who understands ADHD and relationship might be able to help...or my seminar (which has the benefit of providing a TON of useful info and exposure to this issues) but you do need assistance with these issues. This one isn't going away on its own - there are way too many complicating factors (such as the addictions and extreme mood swings).
Don't be the frog that boils to death because the water slowly got hotter. There is a great deal about what you describe that is simply not at all healthy for either you or your daughter. Yes, he's highly sensitive, depressed and angry. He also probably has really low self-esteem with the unemployment and issues he's had. You love him. But don't forget to love yourself. You deserve it.
P.S. I was delighted to hear that you are losing weight - that suggests to me that your mindset is shifting and that you are starting to take control of your life again. Yay! You go, girl, as they say! As you seek to continue to build up your self-care strength, consider keeping a gratitude journal. This can help you remind yourself of all the good things you have around, and the good person whom you are.
I hope this helps, at least a little bit.
Thank you so much for taking the time to comment
Submitted by astromom on
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my 'cri de coeur' here. I really appreciate it, and it helped me a great deal.
I agree that it's definitely my husband's responsibility to take care of himself. Unfortunately, he struggles to do so, with consequences for our entire family. He read your book 'The ADHD Effect on Marriage', and in fact, was the one who referred me to it. He saw our pattern as fitting the tendencies you describe. But it's obvious that there is more happening than ADHD alone. And though he's read it, I don't see any actions from him that would show me he's brought anything into the real world. I read it too, and made a point of reminding him of something the other day without using 'tone'. He thanked me for it. But I see nothing coming from him.
I've definitely been under unremitting stress. This is the culmination of years of his cycles of emotion. And of course I react to him as well. It's difficult not to. And I have become a nag (will try to control this) because he will often still drop the ball (sometimes a critical ball such as remembering our daughter's EpiPen or paying a bill so we don't have our electricity disconnected a third time) after being reminded twice, or even three times. So I've learned that the only thing that works is repeating myself over and over. Even when he yells at me when I do.
The only other choice is for me to do things myself when they're within my control. In which case, why be married at all? I can feel the stress in my body, and the depletion level is not normal. It would be one thing to be on the verge of separation, but it's quite another to be considering separation when my entire retirement fund (in the six figures) has been cashed in to support the family after my husband has lost jobs. So we have many different stressors happening at the same time -- his mental health issues, his online infidelity last year, financial stress and fears that I didn't have before meeting him, his family ostracising me, his recent deception about reconnecting with his woman friend, and our likely separation.
The only things keeping me 'together' are being strong for our daughter, my own background/training in psychology years ago, a mindfulness meditation practice, and knowing that I'm now taking control of my physical health. I do have a gym membership, but I've been so emotionally and physically exhausted that I often put off workouts.
We had our first session of couples counselling last week, and the therapist seems quite good. We've been given a sliding scale rate, but my fear is that we won't be able to pay even that given our financial situation. Here's hoping. What kept coming up throughout the session was my husband bringing up things I allegedly did or said 13-14 years ago. In particular, he was upset at two legitimate health conditions I had (now resolved) that led me to go to the emergency room. and how arduous it was for him. He harped on how anxious I was (was being past tense) because of these conditions and how angry he was with me for a good 15 minutes of the session, without commenting that I was successfully treated and those health conditions that irked him so much resolved over 12 years ago. At no point did he acknowledge that I was the one going through health challenges, and that I (having been the one who was sick and dealing with invasive treatments back then) must have suffered too -- that it was not all about him. He also displayed intense anger during the session about other similar issues, with no apparent awareness that I was enduring things at the same times he was. The therapist observed that he seemed to have "an empathic deficit". My husband believes that he is compassionate and kind, and he can be. But he doesn't seem to have a theory of mind going on.
I appreciate your comment that I'm not to blame for my husband's treatment of me. I needed to hear that. A lot. Because he blames me for my responses to his moods rather than taking responsibility. I'll try my best to smile and not nag or be upset with him when he yells. But it's not easy. He's hurt me more than I can express. And yet, he doesn't seem to see it. From his point of view, it's 50-50. And of course, all relationships are 50-50 in terms of responsibility. (My gut tells me that he has brought far more pain and distress into the marriage, but that feeling won't help us, I realize.) Yet he frequently points to my responses to him as problematic rather than looking at and addressing his own behaviours. So he's not doing his 50%. Being angry at me when I express pain at his online infidelity is an example of this. I'm the problem for being upset after a year and a half, not him, it seems.
We would be interested in the possibility of registering for one of your live couple's seminars. But right now, we're at the worrying-about-groceries stage, and I don't want to take financial advantage of a professional by not having the ability to pay. If we stay together, and one of us finds work, this is something that would be truly helpful to us, as your book has been.
I agree with your comments on his sex and porn addiction, and his changing of his passwords and anger at me for wanting access. As well, he's still angry at me for having checked his e-mail and Facebook, and he refuses to acknowledge that the reconnection with his old female friend is a problem, or that my being upset at his deception was legitimate. He is simply stonewalling me, showing no empathy whatsoever. The female friend in question is married, and they've never been physically intimate with each other. I'm not worried about that with her. It's his secrets and hiding, and lies that reactivate my sense of betrayal. I simply no longer trust him at any level. And I do think it's possible he's still having online sex. He has ruined any sense of goodwill or trust I have in his word by not only stonewalling me, but lying to me again about something new and compounding the matter.
You mentioned that to help me heal after his betrayal, he needs to understand my feelings and become empathic so I can regain trust, but that he's a long way from that. So your question was, am I willing to be with him if he doesn't take that basic empathic step.
My answer is definitely no, I'm truly not. And if I still had the retirement funds his job losses caused me to break, I would already have moved out with 100% certainty.
If I saw that he wanted to do what it took to help me heal instead of directing anger at me for my feelings, which I know are legitimate feelings of betrayal, if he were empathic, if he made any move toward prioritizing and defending me and our marriage from his family, and if he allowed me that basic access to his e-mail and Facebook for rudimentary trust, I'd forgive fairly easily. (We had access to each other's accounts for 13 years prior to his infidelity, by the way. It's only since then that he's shut me out.)
But instead, he seems hell-bent on doing everything possible to have us end up divorced. It's almost as if he's following a checklist of 'What to do and say to ensure that your wife leaves you.' Or if it's not on purpose, his emotions are most decidedly having him do a very good job of pushing me past that point of no return. Because I will have no choice due to the need for self-preservation, and to shield our daughter from his yelling and rudeness toward her. (He is very impatient with her, though he loves her very much.) Self-fulfilling prophecy? Skill deficit? Empathic deficit? I truly don't know. I may never understand this level of self-destruction. And separation and divorce will affect our daughter, which is the saddest part. But at this point, I'm not sure what's worse for her, his inconsistent approach to parenting and his yelling and impatience, or a separation where she gets to see him at times when he's in the right mood to parent with patience. (I can hope!)
As for his family -- you're right. And I have written them off at some level. But it hurts. And it's made worse by the fact that my husband refuses to make it clear that their ostracism hurts me and makes me the target of three people -- mother in law, sister in law, and her husband. Some family systems need a black sheep to contain 'the problems', and apparently, that's what I've become for letting them know that they were wrong to suggest that I'd somehow caused my husband's infidelity. (It's truly a saga. I have no idea how I found myself in this family's sphere. Oh yes, I do. I married their relative. Personal responsibility. Right! <g>)
Thanks too for your kind words of support around my weight loss and self-care, and for your comments about how unhealthy this situation is. I do love myself, but I often have no energy or emotion left for myself. All I can focus on is being the best mom to my daughter, looking for work, trying to get clients for my business, and fantasizing about the day when I can move out and find a healthy situation for myself and my daughter, while ensuring that she keeps a close connection with her father. That would be a win-win.
His family will be another matter, and I fear them, and what they might try to do to be spiteful. That is another reason why I've stayed this long.
Thank you for reading, and for commenting. You've given me much to think about.
Best,
Astromom
"Yet he frequently points to
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
"Yet he frequently points to my responses to him as problematic rather than looking at and addressing his own behaviours."
I hope you and other people here will have patience with me while I write about something from my marriage (now over; I got a divorce in May of this year). I've been trying hard to, and mostly succeeding at, not dwelling in the past. But this comment of yours really hit home because of something going on for me the past several days. I received the house as part of the divorce agreement. I have been trying to "declutter" (in quotation marks because the word is an understatement in my circumstances) because my former husband was a pack rat and left behind years' worth and a basement full of junk. Among the stuff I found in the basement last night were several notebooks and papers from 5 or 6 years ago, which was one of the several times during our marriage when he was in therapy. The pain of that time reawoke in me last night. One of H's constant refrains in therapy and to me, when he would talk about things, was that the biggest problem in the marriage was me. Among other things, on occasion I didn't react well to the fact that he had long stretches of unemployment during which he didn't look for work (including at a time when looking for work was part of his therapeutic "prescription" and he was receiving unemployment benefits and he got retraining benefits from the state). I acknowledge that my sometimes negative reaction was not helpful. I tried to button my lips but I sometimes failed. In contrast, my ex-H has not looked for work since getting fired seven years ago. But my reaction, not his long-term unemployment and our imperiled finances, was the problem he talked about in therapy.
Somebody...HAS to be at Fault or to Blame
Submitted by kellyj on
Rosered,
What I experienced growing up is the same thing that Astromom experienced when she went to talk to her in laws about the problems she having with her H.
It occurred to me something that Liz said in her own situation growing up. As she said it....."Her father didn't drink because of anything she did....her father just drank." End of story. There is no story or reason why sometimes that has to do with anyone else? Sometimes...things just happen and they affect us and we are hurt or injured because of it? There are accidents, mistakes and any number of reasons why thing happen....but most of the time....people do thing for their own reasons....but HAVE to find fault or blame something or someone else? Nothing just happens....there HAS to a reason and that reason has always got to be someone else.
As it seems.....this problem or issue...is not even the problem. The problem really is.....needing or having to have someone else to blame and find fault with. That's the real underlying problem I think?
"If you're not with us....your against us"
That's the real problem here as I'm saying this. That sounds vaguely familiar? Like the Hatfield's and the McCoy's? (eeee ha. We're gonna put a hurt'in on them Yankees by golly!! )
And too this day...there are some who still feel that way...even now from the South?
And how long has the Civil War been over? And how many generations has that attitude still been prevalent whith people who have no other reason to feel that way aside from needing someone to hate and it might as well be the ones next door...instead of the ones living in the same house with you. It doesn't matter really. As long as you got someone...you can pick on to be the scape goat for what ails you?
All I can say to you...is you do not want to join them....if this is what they need? You don't need to do this...and it only brings bad things to you if you can't see this for what it is...and not take it personally. This..in what I'm saying....is not personal to you...at all?
J
All best, Rosered
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
.
My point in bringing up my
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
'not a problem'
Submitted by dancermom on
I do appreciate you contributing. The sorting out process is probably important for any of us who have lived in upside-down world long enough to need time to re-establish ourselves, feet on the ground.
Unilaterally taking issues off the table.
Yes! If there are two people in a relationship, then I think their experiences of it are both important. I have had so many strange encounters with my husband where he Seems to be arguing about facts. "This is not a problem. Everything is fine." As if this is something that reasonable outsiders would all agree.. and by the way, he has judged it to be so. Therefore it is so.
Meanwhile, what I hear is that my experience is not important. I don't want an argument where I try to say he is wrong and I am right. I just want both of us to be important and heard. So often he has aimed the stonewalling look my way or has said, "this is no big deal." and I feel kind of crazy and unreasonable.
If there are some topics my husband didn't want to discuss, for say, an agreed period of time, this would sound SO different to me. Sigh. A request he was making, understanding that meanwhile I'm experiencing the impact of the unemployment (which yes, we experienced). Way different than unilaterally taking my concerns off the table and oh by the way, I'm wrong or unreasonable for my experience.
Because my husband won't come out and say this kind of thing (because, I think, currently, he can't) I have had to figure it out by myself through trial and error. Figure out that "you're wrong" can be translated in my head to "I don't want to hear this because I can't deal with it." And then I can quietly try more and more to keep my feet on the ground and not feel so crazy. I can think my own thoughts and not have the argument. It's lonely, though.
Astromom.....From a Different Set of Eyes Here
Submitted by kellyj on
Unlike Melissa.....succinct-ness....is not my forte but I will make an attempt as the very least lol:) As I read through the story of your husband and his behaviors...I recognized a few things that I can relate with myself being a man..and having ADHD. Melissa mentioned counseling and I will concur with her on that hands down. Not just couples counseling...but one on one with him and therapist if he can find one that speaks his "language". I mean that myself...from knowing the specific problems this creates and what it is like...to have ADHD and those problems associated with it in terms of his family and you. When it occurred to me that I must have got my ADHD somewhere right? I realized it was almost assuredly from my mother in my case.
You mentioned his mother is most likely "histrionic" to some degree and this would not surprise me? I've learned a great deal by going to therapy about this and how some things definitely get passed along from the parents to the children in this way. You mentioned "anxiety and depression"...but not so much OCD like your ex and his uber organized behavior and being meticulous? (as it has been called...."anal retentive" which is not as commonly used anymore but everyone knows what that means in context? )
Obsessive behavior however....is not always about lining your pencils neatly in a row and making sure all the corner line up in the stack of papers neatly and squarely ordered along with those pencils on top of your desk. lol There are those who feel more in control of their life...when things on in their environment and surroundings are "ordered". But the same as it is for me....."things" as in physical "things" are not what does it for me as in "order"...... to feel like I have order and control of my life.
I want to go back to a moment in time to a few things my therapist has said to me in the past. I've been married before as well and I remember when I first got divorced....having that hit me like a tons of bricks and I felt like my whole world was falling apart. Not uncommon...but it was really a shock to me the first time that happened.(very much as it sounds with you when you were younger with your first marriage? I don't know "who" decided to finally end it....or if you both arrived at that at that same time together....but with me...it took my by complete surprise which was part of the problem in the first place? Not being aware of my own behaviors and not understanding my part to play.....I wasn't thinking anything was terribly wrong myself? And part of that...was what you mentioned about him being ...comfortable or in his comfort zone...being depressed and anxious and doing all this somewhat on purpose...as you say...so he will end up being sad and depressed?
I don't think he wants that at all...but he does seem to be doing everything in his power in sabotage himself and moving in that direction? It's definitely a self fulfilling prophecy...but it starts out at the source of this....being a victim...speaking in those terms?
To what my T said to me that day when I was trying to sort all this out with him....as he said it " You thought....everything was going to be just fine? You met this women..and you were really happy and then all of a sudden....things didn't turn out that way and everything came crashing down on top of your head? As soon as the "honeymoon" was over....you were right back where you were...but now even worse? Worse because your bubble burst..and you're still looking at the same problems...the same conflicts and the same depression and sadness as before....but it was like a "boomerang effect"...and while the boomerang was circling around behind you...you thought everything was "peachy and perfect" and all your problems were over. That is...until the boomerang finally caught up to you and smacked you up side the head and the "party was over."
What I just described....I can see in your H from the things you've said...and now he looking for another "fantasy" to recapture that once again. Obsessing over Porn...and finding women to talk to (and or have sex with? )..is all about "relationships" with people. Instead of obsessing over his pencils and paper and his room being perfect? He's obsessing over the "perfect" relationship and seeking what he's lost in that respect? It's from his own unrealistic ideas of what that is...and what he expects to happen? It is "magical thinking" and "denial" along with his "obsessions" which is a way of relieving his anxiety. But this is a viscous circle and a never ending one...which is why it's self sabotaging and why he stays depressed and anxious?
I have learned on things about being anxious and where this originates from...and a 'histrionic" mother...who is a drama queen and is constantly seeking attention...is doing this in her own way....which has to do with "people"...."insecurity", "neediness" and needing to be validated. Add those things together...and what have you got? Depression, victim mentality and a never ending quest to seek something that will only keep you right where you are. Anxiety is or can be a part of having ADHD and what makes me anxious...is when my marriage or my personal relationships are "not in order" especially if things like work or other external problems start to compound themselves? And going along with that same "magical thinking" and "thinking"....these things will help or make that anxiety go away? It only makes it worse...and keeps you stuck...in that never ending "loop" of self sabotaging behaviors and remaining a victim to it instead.
I agree with Melissa whole heartedly.....he needs to start taking responsibility for his actions and figuring out...why he does these things? My mother herself....was not as dramatic...as it sounds like his Mom....but she did do that thing with my first wife...where..."no one is ever going to be good enough...for my little boy". The problem with that was...I was NOT a little boy anymore? I only heard about some of the things my mother did at the very end of my relationship which was in part...my ex wife's fault for not speaking up or telling me?
The counselor I was seeing at the time for just the part of getting through my divorce...was the first one who said something to me straight up. He said...."you need to tell your mother....to knock it off...and you won't be coming around anymore and will stay away if you can't respect my choices and the person I'm with."
In the very essence of this....what Melissa was saying to you about writing off his mother? Well....that's exactly what he was saying to me which eventually...it is what I did up to a point? I did not include my mother in times or places...where she could have the opportunity to even be disrespectful in the first place...and of course...this did not go over well...when the person who is seeking MORE attention....starts getting less?
And the tendency when that happens...is to get dismissed yourself and excluded from the family as a "traitor" to the family..and is more like the "red hared step child" or "black sheep"... who's "got a problem" and the "one to blame"? They call that the "identified patient" in family dynamics...and this is exactly what I ended up being...and you get "excluded" for not behaving "right"...being.."disobedient" or "betraying" the family?
And look at what you ended up filling like yourself? Betrayed and like you were "written off" as the one to blame for all "his" problems?
What goes around...comes around. "He was always such a good boy and so nice to everyone...until he met that woman who tried to steal him away from me?" Speaking in terms of "Histrionic Hell"...from a mother...who is the source of the problem to begin with? Possibly....where he got his ADHD....anxiety and depression from as well? Wouldn't you be...if you were "disowned" and "excommunicated" from both your family and your spouse...both...at the same time?
The very last thing I wanted to do when I first got divorced...was go spend time with my mother and family since....it only made me more depressed and I didn't want to "back off" from expecting more from my family than to take sides against my wife...no matter what the problems that we were having together? Nothing...my mother thought about my ex wife or myself...was true? She was suffering from the same "magical" thinking...and had deluded herself...that we were ALL perfect...and could do no wrong? Quick....put a bow on it...and call it good kind of thinking which is exactly what kept her stuck...in the same pattern of self sabotaging behavior, obsessing over other people, and remaining a victim to (what I now know was diagnosed ADHD...and all the problems and behaviors that she could not really see about her self? She was too busy obsessing over her environment and the people in it...to stop long enough to look at herself in a failed attempt....to make herself feel better? It's a pattern of behaviors and keeps going in a circle?
I'm mot even sure if you can call his "addiction" to porn...an addiction? In part yes because of the physical "high" or stimulation? But looking at it from a behavioral approach....it sounds more like and obsession...which come straight from fear and anxiety...which is more a form of OCD.....than it is an addiction? It;s more a cart or horse thing? Is it...the "porn" the reason for all of this? Or is it his anxiety and depression which comes from this vicious cycle? It that really is what is happening...then the Porn and his "fantasy chasing"...which is more from "magical thinking" and "obsessing" ......and then turning into an addiction after too long I think?
I had different things than your H...but the pattern was remarkably similar? The one thing that my therapist has said to me back then when I was first just trying to figure all this out. and is now a thing of my past in respect to my own family...." Families are weird.....ALL of them!! You are not alone here by any means. I see this....every day." LOL I think he'd be the one to know right?
J
Thanks for commenting! I
Submitted by astromom on
Thanks for commenting! I haven't forgotten you. :) I'll be back.
Astromom - Stupid question of the day
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I am going to ask the stupid question for the day.
You mention that one of the reasons that you haven't left is that you had to draw from your retirement savings to cover expenses. Why is that a reason for not leaving? Do you mean that you used your retirement money and kept your husband's intact? I'm not a lawyer, but that should be a topic for the divorce proceedings - division of his remaining retirement assets. I was about to say shame on you but I realized that you likely didn't have a choice and that if you used your money and not his, it's probably because he refused to do so. You have to start over again for retirement with him or without him, right? If he doesn't care to work, he won't be in a position to help you accumulate retirement savings in the future anyway.
His family might make things unpleasant for you in a divorce but you are worried about something that hasn't happened yet. You don't know what they will do. What are they going to do? Bad mouth you? Make visitation difficult? If you separate and ask your H to leave, they may be too busy taking care of him :) I am certainly not a lawyer, but so many things that happen in a divorce related to custody, support, assets, etc are so stipulated by laws that there isn't always a lot of deviation from the norm. I know, I know, everyone hears about the obscenely unfair cases but most are not. Depending on visitation arrangements/shared custody or not, blah blah, a court may assume your H is able to work and impute income to him for child support purposes.... just sayin' Save your emails that state they are writing you off and excluding you from family events. Courts are looking for mature people who are willing to cooperate for the sake of the child, not alienate loyalties. Your lawyer sister in law knows all of this so don't let her scare you.
What would really have to change for you to feel safe in this marriage?
I should have mentioned. . .
Submitted by astromom on
Thanks for your comment! I'm winded, so I'll just quickly say that. . . he doesn't have a cent to his name. He has lost so many jobs over the past number of years that whatever little retirement savings he had (less than a tenth of the value of the funds I was forced to cash in) are gone. There is nothing for me to receive in divorce proceedings. He has zero savings. Zero retirement funds. The only thing we have is a car; we've both paid for it over the years, but it's in his name.
And he's currently on disability due to the mental health conditions. He barely earns enough to take care of himself. We've been living on a large tax refund that is about to run out. We've had food, and our rent is paid. But if I don't land something soon, we'll have to turn to public assistance -- I can't even imagine such a scenario. It's one of my worst nightmares.
Fortunately, I was just hired for a business booking, and have a few magazine articles I wrote about to come out, and his disability fund covers some things. But I've otherwise lost everything I had. Another reason I haven't left. I simply must be in the position where I have an income before I do. There is nowhere for us to go -- no relatives on my side who could take us in. It's all up to me, it seems.