This is just a quick update on the progress of the things that have transpired of late, and again, with the same cycle. came a breakthrough that I can see. This has been a long time to coming and it's started with me planting those seeds again and with the help of our therapist...I am beginning to see a new pattern developing. And in respect to our therapist, I walked in feeling like something needed to happen and I was being rather forceful in my attempt to get some things through to my wife that I felt I had reached the end of my rope which my T picked up on and took over again as usual. I had pretty much had with being muzzled and all these defence mechanisms which I now clearly see to the point, I was really getting tired of it. Tired of getting to the same place each time and never going further. But as I began to feel "stifled" once again by my T * shutting me up and making me listen with no input what so ever on my part ( and since I trust him implicitly and I always know what he is doing is for "both" our good and best interest ) I saw he was trying to show me something which was why he was making me shut up. As I heard him talk to us....what he was doing was the very thing ( I) needed...but in a way that wouldn't make my wife upset or shut down and stop listening to him. And the key words he used was "conflict avoidant" ...which really registered with me from our earlier visits. He said it to my wife briefly in passing that he felt she was doing this..and that was key? I realised, what she has been doing all along, is trying to avoid conflict entirely but in order to do this...we never had reached a place where she would go any further to resolving the conflict in the first place?
Anyway, what came out of that, was me feeling less heard than before, but with something new to think about? What he gave us as an assignment "together" was to talk about, not what we can do...to fix this issue....but what we can "not do" to fix this issue which was exactly what I wanted..but now with a kicker? We can only talk about "we"...instead of using (I) or ( me) or (you) in the conversation. This was a brilliant move on his part....but not until we got home and my wife started in with her usual accusatory language and pointing the finger at me? I realised that she was not going to change one iota...if I didn't do something different? At great protest and with a fair amount of resistance.....I figured out a way to pin her down..and not let her move out of the "we" and back into the ( I) language again. The "I want" language which is what she always uses? I got so fed up with hearing everything start with (I) want...that I finally blew a gasket and got some felt pens out..and started diagramming on a mirror we have in the front room like a chalkboard. I also realised the futility of talking when she would allow me to anything so by defaulting to what I do best? Drawing pictures and "showing" instead. Showing...instead of explaining...with those visual aids like I said. It was maddening ( once again ) to come and hear...my wife's version of what our T said..compared to what I heard? And the only thing she heard....had to do with what she wanted...period. I finally got angry and said "how old are you? Didn't your mamma tell you, you don't always get what you want? What about what I want? I want things too? In fact, what I want...is what you don't want...and that's a problem for me!!!" And what she doesn't want...is to talk about it again? Nothing new there, to the point of exasperation. Fine then....you don't want to talk? Now you're speaking my language. I'll show you instead...and out came the felt pens and away I went. On a big mirror like a chalkboard..and was drawing away like there was no tomorrow. And despite her saying...."why are you doing this? I don't want to do this!!".........I gave her no choice. I did it anyway,....whether she liked it or not? But at least for her...I wasn't talking. That was my in...to get her to "see" it....not hear it....since apparently....what she hears is missing anything to do with me? But in my pictures....I was certainly there and there was nothing she could do to stop me from including myself....in my own drawings!!! The utility of doing this...was short of amazing ...but it took a few days for my drawing to sink in. She came to me this time...with some startling revelations. They were not revelations to me....I've been saying them for as long as I could remember? When that happened...suddenly, we took a quantum leap up to a new level...which is in essence to my T was saying....he gave me the template to use to do so? I just visualised the template...and drew it on the mirror.
Having gone through this myself, I finally recognised something I was familiar with. A breakthrough and step up to the next level of awareness? And suddenly when that happened....my wife this time, came to me and started talking about it. What I saw and realised was...the bell of knowledge had been rung...and there's no unringing the bell....once it's be resounded fully. That was the breakthrough...with a renewed hope for the future. I just wanted to share.....how by myself with the help of my T.....I took what I knew and what I do best...and made that work for me? That one, I can't tell anyone else to do....because those pictures in my head just come to me and always have. All I have to do...is draw them and point...and go....."see what I mean?" If she wouldn't listen and was closing her ears....the next best thing is her eyes...and now, we're talking my language. The language of pictures so she could see? It's what I do best....I can do that one in my sleep. All I know...is that it worked....to sprout those seeds and get her to see. Where there's a will....there's always a way? And since I'm an Artist....I just took a little Artistic license...and did it my way this time. And surprise surprise, it worked like magic. Shazaam!! Private Pyle. Gollllllly!!! LOL
J
Progress Report: Breakthrough to the Next Level
Submitted by kellyj on 05/22/2017.
I Finally Have an Answer That Fits
Submitted by kellyj on
I wanted to make a an updated post to go along with these latest developments that came to light to today with another meeting with our T. This came about in the same I described how my wife and I were not really hearing our T's instructions he gave us the same way when we tried to apply what he said so today, I opened with going back over the material again and reviewing what happened with him. This was the most productive thing we could have done although, it was a my insistencies to the point of having to push and become somewhat belligerent. And the reason for that in my mind was really clear at least for me in knowing that I had hit the point where I had tried everything else and nothing was going to work and for me, I only had one request or one thing on my agenda and that was bringing to like this concept of "conflict". What came out of this was not surprising in the least and it started with my T simply asking what happened or why we were having issues with his simply instructions. And I answered him by simply reiterating what I remember he said, while confirming the things I was saying with him to make sure I was saying it correctly. This was the contract that he set up in terms of saying we were to make this agreement in front of him, and then carrying it out together which immediately failed as I described earlier. This really was brilliant on his part because we both had agreed that we didn't want conflict and he even mentioned to my wife that she was conflict avoidant. This really makes no sense coming from how I see it since what the results of that is ( assuming he is correct ) that my wife is "conflict creating" in a most pronounced way. I'm taking myself and my own ADHD issues out of the picture here for a moment and am focusing on the elephant in the room now, and getting right to it. After I finished reiterating what he said and reiterating and cofirming with my wife that we both agreed we didn't want conflict, he pulled out his notes and he listed the things we agreed "not to do" and I included "chastising" to reconfirm as the one area of failure for my wife. In fact, he asked us first if either one of us had violated the list he gave, and "chastising" was the only one that still reappeared, and that one fell square with my wife and not with me and that's when it happened for the first time in front of our T.....my wife denied that the list or the agreement saying "it wasn't in writing" which made absolutely no sense what so ever? It was a verbal agreement we made in front of our T with a verbal handshake so to speak...there was no written contract so to speak and I have no idea where that came from including my T. I had a really adverse reaction to that denial since it was so blatant and further, my T was looking at his notes and he was reading directly off them. That was after I had verbally stated them before he did that? In that moment, there was no way I could stay in the room and I needed to get up and use the rest room anyway so I excused myself for a moment and left them there with me hearing him confirm that yes, we did agree to do that in front of him but I didn't hear what he did with that "it wasn't written down" excuse which was all that was which was why I reacted to it. This is what I cannot tolerate any longer with someone who will do anything but take responsibility to the point of making up garbage excuses out of thin air like that. I call that "pulling it out of your ass" they are so bad and ridiculous.
What came out of this once I returned was like music to my ears. It was the confirmation or validation of what has never been admitted to, but it came down to one word and that is "punishment". As my T went down the list of things I didn't do and how I didn't create any conflict.....he kept asking her...."where's the conflict"? He didn't violate any places where he could see I created conflict and when he asked her on the spot...she sat there and stared with no answer. Only, that the things that she was reacting to, were causing her problems, stress, concerns ....all the above which boiled down to causing a negative reaction in her, which has always been acknowledged by me. So where's the conflict if I wasn't creating one? And what it came down to him saying.."there is a conflict for sure but it's inside you, not with him". And he further mentioned "coerced" and "punishment" within the same context.
And all I had to do at that point was "google"....."punishment, coercion and conflict in the same search...and up popped the answer I've been searching for that fits this to a T. This is a new concept in terms for me, and it describes what I experience to an infinite degree of accuracy which is the concept of HCP...or "High Conflict People". And as I read into this theory and the literature more, it even confirmed my own suspicions saying that people with personality disorders tend to fall into this catagory but not all people who have a personality disorder do, and further.....people who don't have personality disorders can have this pattern to the point as it was said.....is NOT a diagnosis or any clinical definition aside from just being a chronic pattern of thinking aside from any abnormal disorders or mental issues which really started making sense. As I've immediately recalled my father who I've had enough confirmation about with my own understanding did probably have a personality disorder yet....he was not an HCI person as I would see him. He hated conflict like the plaugue...and what he demanded more than anything...was NO CONFLICT and no drama...in absolute terms. The exteme opposite of HCP yet....he had a personality disorder and that was really the most defining thing for me in order to separate these similar looking or overlapping symptoms and put them where they belong. And even though, I am not an easy person to live with by any means and I will admit that for sure.....aggresion, dominance and creating conflict.....are not on the list of things I own as a rule. That is not my nature and by nature...I'm more passive until I'm confronted with a hostile aggressive or dominating force and I can match that and then some coming from a place of matching force with force. In fact, and this is not a good or bad thing necessairly...but I seem to have the ability to rise up and not only match but out match that force as needed to the point of being in a knife fight and pulling out a cannon under extreme conditions? When push comes to shove and it a do or die situation....I'm not the best person to mess with under those circumstances which is all about self protection at that point and nothing else. I've just learned to defend myself with a great deal of force behind it when someone is actually aggressing on me or trying to dominate or hurt me aka : a bully. I an not afaid of bullies and they do not threaten me when push comes to shove. I'd rather stay clear of them...but if I can't, then they are barking up the wrong tree with me. No problam-o. If I lose a finger to save my life....I will loose that body part to stay alive in a heart beat and I'm willing to go that far without even thinking it about it. No hesitation there...and bullies I've found...are not willing to make that kind of sacrifice. That is where you separate the wheat from the chaff right there as I've come to find.
Any way...what came out of today was most enlightening and confirming to me. And what was most validating was discovering this concept of HCP people and without giving it a second thought, that is exactly who my wifes mother was. Regardless of anything esle she had going on, she was defintely an HCP and that is where my wife got it. For sure. As well as seeing signs of it in her brother which made these pieces fall neatly into place. This is hugely a nurture issue as a big component which means it's learned...and it can be unlearned and to a certain degree at least.....is a choice but only if you learn how and make the effort to do so.
And on my part and in what I can now focus more on is what was called BIFF: Brief | Informative | Friendly | Firm as my response to a person like my wife. That is really a challenge for me, but I've been able to pull it off yet...now I have an simple accronym for it and something I can recall in the moment in order to practice those 4 things together which makes it easier for me to remember as a group or things to do all at the same time instead of just one or the other. Friendly is a whole lot easier for me to rationalize than "nice" or "kind". I've had a real sturggle with being "kind"...in the face of this HCP concept since kind...really isn't what I'm feeling at all....but no matter what, I can always pull off friendly not matter what? Kind is one of those things in the face of hostility that kind fo goes along with the idea of "turning the other cheek"...and sometimes, that just doesn't work and you need to do something else instead. If you don't want to be a punching bag...or as it said...."Target for Blame". That was the most precise phrase I could have ever come up with even if I tried. That is the abuse right there....."Target for Blame". That is what, I will not live with or tolerate and it's not because I feel abused....it's because I'm worth more than that...and there is no way someone is going to do that with me. That is that thing, where I will not lay down and allow it....if I've earned the respect that I do deserve after I've alread paid my dues and followed through with what I've said...the way I see it now is.......it's payday and I've done my part...."Targeting for Blame"....is kicking the dog as I've said many times before. There will be no kicking the dog....period. end of story. 0 tolerance there and I don't have to be kind or nice...but I can still be friendly which as I see it...is different yet still? It fits together better with the concept of HCP people. In my mind, kind or nice will get you ho where in my experience but that could just still be me rationalizing this but I'm not so sure of that in this case. I'm not yet to make a difnitive statement until I have a chance to practice this more and see what I think after that. I'm sure to let everyone know as time goes on. If anything, my wife will either do something about it or leave which she brought up again....but as I read into this more it this was how it described it which is the exact and precise way of saying what I have not been able to say so well or in so few words
All-or-nothing thinking: HCPs tend to see conflicts in terms of one simple solution rather than taking time to analyze the situation, hear different points of view and consider several possible solutions. Compromise and flexibility seem impossible to them, as though they could not survive if things did not turn out absolutely their way. They often predict extreme outcomes if others do not handle things the way that they want. And if friends disagree on a minor issue, they may end their friendships on the spot – an all-or-nothing solution.
One dimensional thinking. It drives me absolutely crazy!!! But not anymore. All of that, is on my wife. I do not own that last paragraph....which means....I'm going to make sure that all stays with her and I will not be taking any of that on to me anymore. That ain't my job to make her feel better in this problem she has "as if, they could not survive if things did not turn out absolutely their way." I have a major issue with that one, in terms of respect, more than anything else. Respect is earned and in that respect.....that's just weak and nothing else. Strength comes from work and working out and working hard and building your muscles and your brain. Weak and staying weak...does not get much respect from my end coming from a life time of adversity and knowing just how hard it is. Hard....is not an excuse. Sorry.....that's just weak in my mind. I have a difficult time with sympathy in connection with hard? Maybe that's just me, and I need to do some more soul searching on that one.
J
Hi J...Underlying conflict, There's a reason for it, my two bits
Submitted by c ur self on
(So where's the conflict if I wasn't creating one? And what it came down to him saying.."there is a conflict for sure but it's inside you, not with him". And he further mentioned "coerced" and "punishment" within the same context.)
This is key in my eyes, not in a sense that your wife is creating it, or that you are....The way I've come to view this popping up of conflict that just seems to happen...It's because of the out pouring of what is there in us, laying dormant at time... It's about offense, dislike and non-acceptance... To me its the simple under lying reality with in us all, that say's I don't like the circumstances that I'm being presented with.....These circumstances may be anything from bad breathe to Cancer....But in a relationship where acceptance of someone that's not like me is critical, it must be exposed, and recognized.. In many cases our spouses can be nothing like us at all, so the world of expectation or dislike can be the dominate thought process for these individual (I've been one)...Not a healthy mind to abide in daily..
We must have peace with our desires to Change or Control (our spouse) another human before we can see our selves....It's very hard to look at someone you love (even in front of a Counselor/Therapist) and tell them your life style offends me daily:(...But if the conflict with in me (stress, anxiety) is built on this truth, then there is no way I see of solving it, unless we start right there....We can't let the fear of being exposed keep us from our own truths...
In order to live with my wife peacefully I have to recognize our differences as unique to each of us and realize the disdain we have for each others life styles, in order to move forward...Until I come to this simple truth....She's offended by my cleaning and organization, insistence on punctuality for myself, desire for regular intimacy, wanting her to contribute part of her earned finances to some degree, to our family expenses...On and On....I'm offended by her messiness, I'm offended by her unwillingness (or inability) to go places without speeding and chaos much of the time...I'm offended at her giving me commands while I drive, and showing negative emotions when I ignore it, I'm offended by her showing little to no commitment to grocery shopping or meal planning most of the time...On and On...
So when we both recognize all these offenses, which probably want every change a lot....Then we can move forward IF, we can learn to shut down expectations...And swap them for an Acceptance of the reality of how our minds think, and how those thoughts or lack of produce different behaviors in our living of life....We are as different as the EAST is from the WEST....But w/ boundaries, and recognizing the differences, and showing respect to each other no matter how our paths must be divided at times to allow these boundaries to do their work for us....Then we can live peacefully the lives we chose.... Or the lives our minds are forcing on us....Word it as you will....
It's not bout right or wrong...You can argue that until the cows come home....My wife will set and tell you in times of peaceful awareness that her own life style offends her at times....And if I'm honest I can say the same...So to beat each other up about the differences....Is futile and you will be assured of a marriage filled w/ conflict and destruction.....
There is always the Door...Which is much better than Conflict.....
C
Thanks C For A Lot of Good Things to Think About
Submitted by kellyj on
I saw your other response to me and I appreciate your thoughts. This thing with the conflict, has really been difficult to understand but mostly because of something that just didn't fit that I was not recognizing exactly. The HCP defintion, pretty much explains exactly and there is an element of it that does appear to be different or not something that I was understanding or getting. It's the thing that I don't own that I don't understand which creates something I am familiar with and that's thinking or not understanding how your thoughts are limited by one way of thinking. I understand the dilemma in my own ability to understand? I cannot imagine how in respect to my wife and her dependence on her mother. Having to confront what I confronted myself in an unchanging way ever, will just conditon and mold a person into that way themselves......or maybe not.......depends........that's the answer. In respect to being born into conflict I guess you could say, the inability to see your way out of it, would be nearly impossible to do. At least without some kind of outside influence intervening in between? I had that, plus I didn't really live in conflict except for brief and fiery moments tied to something going wrongl. I could manage not screwing up enough, to have some control of that of course. And for the most part, the choice was an easy one when ever and where ever was possible. For the most part that is. There wasn't a lot of daily hostility but when there was any, it became quite intense at times. And no body wanted any part of that so everyone shut up and put up in hurry. Like right now. So there wasn't a whole lot of continuous conflict and mostly it was just disconnection aside from my mother more than anything and we didn't have a lot of conflict. Not in how we dealt with one another that is. We didn't aggress on each other and throw a wall up immediately and that's where the trouble lies because that wall is pure conflict. I can't reach in and even touch her it's so intense. She will not put that force field she throws up down....when she turns her own "stuff" what ever it is, and down loads it on to me. That is right where the rubber meets the road and what she cannot see. She has nothing there to stop her or give reason to why she shouldn't or why it bad and especially bad for me. When she shifts into this mind set, it happens over night. She has no ability to connect what she's doing to me in any way since that is immediately defected, rejected, denied or dismissed without acknowledgement to even begin to accept it. It's belligerent and willful in it's itention and as she sat there in our T's office and asked "well what I suppose to do with it" I looked at my T and he presented with this advise. "Don't do it" It is the same thing he's said to me but it comes with a complete explanation without any expectations that this will change over night. More just a goal or a target in order to know what to work on. And when I sit in front of our T and hear this verbatum...when I'm confronted with this again with no ackowledgement of anything that was said.....we are fundamentally at 0 again which at this point I am seeing why what I am saying most accurate. She cannot connect the one to the other. The need or the drive to go towards conflict over rides her ability to see her way of it. She has to blame, she has to drive the arguement and she has to bait your or open the door in order to create one in her mind, it simply because of something I've done....but what that is, the conflict my T is describing. It is definitely inside her not with me ...yet, I've doing a lot of the things you mentioned and learned to live with as best I can. Despite what I don't like, I've learned to live with it except...the only requirement that I asked of her, what no chastising, and she can't do it. When she hits that one button and it goes off in her, she has just one way of seeing things and that requires conflict to get it. It is a form of attention and it simply cannot stand. If I have to deal with that wall spontaneously and with my T pointing that out to her that this must go......her need is so overwhelming that it completely over rides everything and that is that dominant quality that you are mentioning as well. But as I feel and I know this to be true myself. That what is not right, become normalized or rightl.....even thought you know it's not right....a part of you or a part of your body or physical reaction or nervous system ...needs that stimulation and that is somehow interpreted as a good thing or something you need. Possibly as a form of the only kind of affection or attention a person gets at home. If all you get is something other than Love....it would make it hard to know what real Love really is? Or even recognize if you were conditioned for something else. There in lies a problem that there is no answer for? If that really is the only way my wife can even hope to do anything about that, then she has to come to turns and own that herself. Before we go any where or no where at all? This insatiable need for conflict or to seek conflict is the thing that I don't own. If that wall up and and all I see is what I see.....then that is all I get and that is kind of a problem. I can live and we do get along fine with all the other things...but this anger and hostility thing is simply becoming intolerable. It's too clearly obvious to me, when I see myself doing what I'm doing. But in order to even shut it down, I have to confront the conflict. No matter what, she needs to get rid of it. It's why when my T brought that in front of her....she had nothing to say other than...."what I am suppose to do with it?" And that is sincere. She has nothing, to add or even source from that point. If my T didn't tell her what do to, she has no thoughts what so ever? It's just a complete blank which is right back to the beginning. I can plug myself in or out of this picture and it still doesn't matter since what ever she feels inside has to be blamed on something on the outside and I'm the only one here. What you said is something I'm coming to but still hesitant only because of myself not my wife. I want to sit with this understanding for a while and watch things from a different perspective to gain a little more insight into this way of seeing things. I have skills now to keep me and us out of trouble, but when push comes to shove and starts doing this thing, I can shut her down but what's the point? If I can't touch her ( metaphorically speaking ) then I have nothing and she has nothing to give. That is a 0...even if I've learned to live with it enough...aside from being human and getting angry at her when I've had enough on occasion. And mostly, it to get her to shut down and when she does, I've got all I wanted from her. She doesn't see it that way but that's kind of the boundary I created that she needs to respect. I'm not going backward with her and she doesn't like it. She really is not willing to try to adjust and I am not able to reads her mind to tell my anymore. The need to punish and aggress just to do it, has no value for me what so ever. It is taxing on me and a very toxic environment at times, but I've learned to keep that away from enough that it's just sustaining the same old thing. I've got better things to do, and nothing really stopping me unless I allow her behavior to do it but there is nothing left after that? That kind of the sad truth to it but I've got things to do, that need to be doing. That's true and I need to focus on that and she can do with it as she likes. I have no control over her but I won't allow her to have control over me and it;s as simple at that.
J
Without ownership.....this is what you get.
Conflict J...Is it desired? Or, are we hopeless to prevent it?
Submitted by c ur self on
(Despite what I don't like, I've learned to live with it except...the only requirement that I asked of her, what no chastising, and she can't do it. When she hits that one button and it goes off in her, she has just one way of seeing things and that requires conflict to get it. It is a form of attention and it simply cannot stand. If I have to deal with that wall spontaneously and with my T pointing that out to her that this must go......her need is so overwhelming that it completely over rides everything and that is that dominant quality that you are mentioning as well.)
I'm a firm believer that most of our conflict is not desired by myself or my wife...It just happens when we loose site of a few simple things...One is respect...One is what happened in the garden...Many people can and will tell you why the rainbow exists in the sky, and what it means...Many men can and will tell you what the two curses God placed on all men are...And most every women will tell you about one of the two curses that is on them, especially the one's who have endured it...Labor pains at birth....But very few women (in my experience and I've asked plenty) because they are so deeply offended at the second curse, want discuss it, and many block it out as non-existent...That with in it self is a large part of the problem, the rebellion of what God fixed...
To me this battle to gain dominance is in every women who refuses to respect and accept the role laid out in a marriage from the beginning...And what makes it 10 times harder for them, is when the husband refuses to fill his role as a responsible leader...It's not an excuse for disobedience, but, it make it more difficult to function in the appointed role...
It goes back to this statement...It takes two!....It takes two to have a blessed and peaceful union....It take two to bite and devour one another....
The main reason we have manifested conflict in our relationships is described in James 4:1..."Where do those fights and quarrels among you come from? They come from your selfish desires that are at war in your bodies"
J what I hear you saying is the same thing I've battled with for Oh so long!....This is where I'm at with it, if it helps to know....
J, After much pain, and many many attempts to verbally point out these unhealthy behaviors, the outbursts of control seeking, etc....I've finally come to the realization that, "I'm not being heard" The why's are simple...Things like no respect for roles, seeking dominance, seeking to manipulate to get her way. Denial...So pointing it out only worked in the moment at times, (at best)...And at worse..I want even go there lol...
But what I've come to realize is...Even though I'm not being heard....I am being felt....So you know and I've posted about how I've started turning inward..(self awareness) Asking myself each day and in each attempt at communication...Is this beneficial?...Is it productive? And the biggest one for me is....Does it bring Glory to the Father? If I can't feel good about it...I'm learning to walk away in silence...
This past evening is a good example:...My W is busy minded, and so am I..So I am making it a point to set aside my hobbies, and attempt to invite her away the TV at night just to lay in bed a few minutes together. Where I just hold her as she gets sleepy....(She has complained often that all I want is sex, and she really don't like the reality that she goes separate ways and lives in a mind that just wants to set in front of a TV until she realizes she has to rush off to bed in order to get enough sleep to work. When she is off work she is always planning things...So it's so difficult to have any quiet time together that it just seems to her when we she allots 30 minutes of quiet, all I'm wanting is sex..It may take a week or two just have 30 minutes for intimacy and I'm past ready...So taking this time to end our days with a few minutes of intimacy and soft kisses without the threat of intercourse many of them is very pleasing to her and she goes to sleep so much faster and peacefully....I said all that to say this...So a few hours after she turns over to go to sleep last night, she walks in the kitchen, I hear the refrigerator door...So I'm headed to bed it's about 11:50. When she see's the light in the Den go out...She says' to me....Don't come to bed right now, it will hinder me from going back to sleep....(My routine every night is to bring everything I need and put it on the couch, I even leave my house flip flops in the Den and go to bed by cell phone light. Quietly get into bed (Two Twin XL's side by side) as she is snoring and go off to sleep....I'm thoughtful of her....So I've been given a command...So this is what you are stating...She has conflict with in her...She wants to control others, but she can't hear when you point it out....So because I can be felt....I ignore her command...I go into the bedroom in the dark and quietly pray and get up in my bed and go to sleep..I hear her over there seething and huffing!...Now that command she gave and her emotion around it has nothing to do with me unless I make it mine...I'm not going to!!....So it's force ownership...So I don't care what happens after that, as long as I'm not a party to it...It's not my conflict....It's built around what is going on in her mind alone....
C
It's Conditioned C........Coming to Terms
Submitted by kellyj on
C....I can't speak directly or even generally about your wife even though the pattern seems the same. All the time I've spent up to now has been a process of ruling out on my part, and giving the benefit of the doubt to my wife as much as I have to admit and concede that many glimpses of what I've seen in my wife I will say that I can relate to only from being this way in the past myself. Up to a point that is and then I depart dramatically from her in most ways I am seeing now and the fact that I done this, allows me to see it much more clearly and distinctly than before. I haven't chosen to ignore it, or make excuses for her, but I have taken the position of not knowing, not assuming and allowing her to come forth on her own and she simply has refused to do so. I've backed off from pushing, back offend from arguing or fighting and simply backed off for the most part and taken the lead from my T and simply followed his lead and then trying my best to follow through. This last time in our T's office, as he was giving me yet, another assignment for me to be the one to give without asking anything any return.....I stopped him at the end and became a lot more demanding myself since I realized now in reflecting back after giving enough time to go by and doing what he's asked to the best of my ability that I have in the essence of this....done what I haver set out to do without realizing exactly what that is until now. I can take a quote from the post I did a while ago on "What is Love, and What is Not Love" and use that as my reference point here:
Now, although Lacan doesn’t say it this way, the difference between these two kinds of love—common “love” and true love (or real love)—can be conceived of as the difference between receiving and giving.
Note carefully, though, that giving does not refer to the mere sharing of material objects or wealth; it refers to the expression of profound emotional qualities such as patience, forbearance, compassion, understanding, and forgiveness.
This all goes to show that it’s easy enough to “love” those who “love” us: parents who protect us, “partners” who make us feel received, animals who never threaten us. But can we love those who annoy us . . . irritate us . . . obstruct us . . . scorn us . . . hate us? Can we love our enemies? That’s the real test of real love."
What I've done an accomplished are to give these very things. Patience, forbearance, compassion, understanding and forgiveness and even in the face of an adversary as she thrives on being with me....I have learned to Love her anyway and I feel like I have at least.....passed this test even if not full time all the time and especially in the midst of the conflict itself. I have come away not hating....and that is a very good thing. But now, where does that leave me and what to do about it? And I can use one more means to validate my own feelings at this point and this is a quality of time as a means to measure by? This is something that I am very aware of as an Artist in terms of taking a piece of Art and hanging it on your wall, and doing a side by side comparison to any other piece of art or picture you put up there, and then live with it day to day. This is a collective feeling you begin to develop about that piece the more you look at it and live with it....it will tell you how you feel about it once you've given it enough time there and just having it in your space with you. Call it what you will, but I call it "Art Appreciation" in terms of a picture you have hanging on your wall as an Art Form or object that you live with on a daily basis and one thing I've learned for myself is one of 3 things will happen over time:
1) The art peice will grow on you and you will begin to appreciate it more.............
2) You will become indifferent or bored with it....and you will simply ignore it and it will blend in to the scenery virtually disapear...........
3) You will begin to form a dislike for it and it will cause you to have a negative emotional response to it which is more than just getting tired or bored with it and it becomes invisible. At that point, it becomes and irritant and you will slowly lose your tolerance for it being there and eventually you'll remove it or take it down since you tend to notice it and it stands out like a sore thumb or a thorn in your in side every time you look at it. For what ever reason it is ( since it's just a picture or a piece of interpretive subjective Art work ) you will form an opinion about that piece of Art..and nothing but simply getting rid of it or removing it from your sight or your environment will take those feelings away. And of course, that negative opinion you have of it.
And since I'm not about to say, what it is that cause this in my wife since I cannot read her mind and she will not say what it is.....I have become that 3rs catagory for my wife and have been that for quite a long time now. Making sure on my end, that I was neglecting to be thorough and cover all the bases here ( on my end ) and like I said....if I use the LOVE test as my litmus test in using those qualities including the one as an enemy or adversary in respect to even doing that ( for the most part as best I can ) I have arrived now at a conclusion, and that conclusion is that I am that 3rd category for my wife....not how I see her. So is you think about this C and even what I caught you saying.....it sounds like what you've done is the same in respect to me in that I have learned to ignore her as in category #2....even though, with all things considered....I still see her at times when things are calm as category #1. I don't want to treat her like category #2...but I have to in order to keep the peace for myself. And what my T did for me, was set this up so I could come to terms with this a real way in order to see this clearly. He gave us clear and precise instructions to follow and it was done in a way that was possible for me to do. And I did it, without fail and withheld my end of the bargain. And my wife failed immediately....this time when we came back in to see him and I reiterated what went down....my wife denied the agreement, and tried to say we didn;t have one which was a major amount of BullShist and she did it right to his face. And I gave him a look and I was mighty pissed off he could tell. She did it blatantly to the point that my T simply said to her "uh, yes you actually did agree to it, I have it written right here in the notes from last time" And my wife's response to him was..."well, it wasn't in writing". And that was the moment I had to get up and leave the room and come back after a couple of moments because I was just about to lose it. We had an agreement, said out loud with my T verifying it with us all together in the room and he even wrote it down;;and then asked my wife if I had broken any of those agreements? And she said no.....and he said "well then' where's the conflict"
I can answer that now, with a good deal of assurance, that what I'm saying is accurate and I have eliminated all other possibilities that now I can say I'm sure. I am absolutely sure, of exactly what I'm feeling and seeing and what that is ....is all I am to my wife as it comes through to me....is catagory # 3 and that is all that I am to her; And if that is all that I am to her, and I have done exactly what I've said I've done ....which I own that for sure....I have followed through on my word. What that means is exactly what it means and nothing else.
Does is mean, that I still don't have ADHD, and I am perfect in all regards to my symptoms in the most mechanical sense like:
-forgetting petty inconsequential things at times or not remembering everything on my list even though it does not create any real problems for her, since I take responsibility and fix anything I've done myself. What that means is, my wife is not having to fix...anything I screw up because of my ADHD.....I do it...and she does nothing and I make sure of that to the point that I will not allow her to enable me...and I will not allow her to fix it for me with rare exception. In the case that I have to call on her for her help with ANYTHING........I treat that like a favor....and you only get so many favors before they are used up and I have not used up my favors since I call on them so sparingly. I own that one too, no matter what she says. What she says, is distorted and co-dependent....what I'm saying is not...with a clear field of view in front of me ....FOR SURE!! I am NOT co-dependent..and have fought long and hard to make sure of that without a doubt in my mind. Done deal signed sealed and delivered. I have given...and she has given nothing but what she gives and what she gives or how she treats me....is like an inconveneince and that peice of Art on the wall that not only has no value what so ever....but is a constant reminder of how irritating it is each and every time I am in her presence. And this is where, the part of me that has always been there comes out. I am worth more than that and I will not tolerate being treated like a piece of dirt or an "irritate" on the wall, that is a bother or she doesn't like and wants to get rid of. This where my normal passivity...turns to becoming a dominant force and in that past, I didn't know how to do that well, but now I am beginning to see the light. This is not tit for tat....this is bringing it home and matching fire for fire...with more than she's got and doing it better than her and in a way that I can walk away from and still feel good about it. Not that I like it, or enjoy it or really get anything out of it I since I don't get anything I want....but I'll be God Damned if I have to live with what I don't want anymore. And what I don't want and I will not live with....is to be treated like an unappreciated piece of Art...that all you want to do is make it go away or get rid of. Petwey on that crap. I am worth more than that and if I have to....I can be as dominating and commanding as the next person and take on that role if I have to. And when my wife came home from work again the other night...and I had followed exactly what I had agreed to as prescribed...when my wife started in again and started to deny and get angry and upselt and do the things she always does to create conflict and never resolve it and ....I changed how I talked to her...and I talked to her like and as if, she was that worthless piece of Art that had become intolerable to live with, and told her to get out of the house, the sooner the better. I didn't ask....I commanded....and I told her, that our relationship had just taken a parigm shift...and I was taking her choice away from her. I literally told her, I was calling all the shots, I was withholding intnetionally..and everything was going to be transactional....quid pro quo...but....as I said it "you give...then you get. Quid pro quoe....I make the rules and the new rules are....I want you out and I want you to leave as soon as possible. No more conlfict...as of this minute and if you can't live with that and you start with me....I will throw you out......that is not choice...that is an ultimatum. And I told her we will go to see our T as soon as possile...and I will be making a written contract....with exactly my terms, the way I want it, and you get no choice of decision period. And I siad that she will be singing it in front of him, as a witness. Done deal, not get out and stay out and leave me the Hell alone. I want nothing to do with what you have to offer me, because all you have to offer me is abuse. You may say you are different with everyone else...but all I see is a harpy.....and that is all you are to me? You have no value to me as a harpy...and I want you out of my living space and environment ASAP if not sooner. I get first in everything, I make the rules...you give, I get, then I will decide if that is satisfactory or not..and if not...then I'll determine any reward you get....if I feel you have earned it....these are the rules....your choice is gone.
And she left for work..and I proceeded to start making plans....but after about an hour...I hear the door open...and my wife took the day off from work and started to confess and apologize. What she confessed, what that she was a bad person, and she ws sorry for having put me through all she has put me though and as she said....she does not know how to be with anyone of be in relationship with anyone. Aside from the "bad person" part...that was an honest answer and apology. And even though I told her exactly what I did not want, and if she could do that then we'd have a chance.....she has moped around in silence for the past 36 hours and just mumbled she doesn't care anymore.
The bottom line here C, is I backed her into a corner and she had no ammo to use against me. She was defenseless and cornerd with no way out. My T did such a good job of helping me set this up, that now when push came to shove, she cannot dominate and control and plan and do her thing.....she is dead in the water...and has nothing left to give. I literally extinghished her ability to dominate and control...and that appears to be what she really wanted and needed in the most messed up way possible. She is so conditioned to be that way, and so addicted to that in a such a maladaptive way, that without that and without the ability to do that.....she has no will or desire for anything anymore with is really pathetic but that's what it's come to. It a "0" tolerance zone, for anger and conflict and I will not live with that picture hanging on my wall any longer. The picture has come down, and I don't really care where it goes, as long as it's not in the same room where I live...she is free to do anything she likes. She has all the choices and options in the world in front of her...and the only one that she has been brought to bear that she can't do anymore...is the only one she wants and that's it. I taken her power away, and I have disabled her ability to control....ME. She is free do control herself and her life, and I have no plans or means to stop her or get in her way what so ever. She has choice....except with me and she apparently find that so intolerable that she simply gives up and quits. That is just weak and nothing else. That is a choice......since as she said....."I'm 60 years old, and I don't want to do that". I'd say....she been saying that one....since she was 6......but who am I to know that? I'd lay money on it....because weak is all I see in every turn in the road. Weakness or strength....is not determined by ADHD and I can guarantee that, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind.
What comes to mind here, is a quote made by the famous Architect ( one of my all time favorites ) Frank Loyd Wright.....as I remember it as he said it "Never have anything you don't Love, in your living space or environment" so going along with that thinking....I took care of that for my wife....because she was too weak to do that for herself. I have a hard time respecting that even I can do that for myself, despite the treatment I get from her? We'll see where it goes....but my expectation just went up about 10 notches on the expectation meter. I am still following the same path and going right along with what my T has engrained in me no matter what my wife decides to do. "Don't make anything you do, contingent on anyone else." I have worked so long and hard to get to that place in my life, I'm worth it, and I've earned and no one can take that from me since I own it and it;s mine. That's all I can say about that. My path, has not changed one iota and it won't. I am still dedicated and comminted to improving and working on myself and working towards my goals without change what so ever in a positive way for myself. The only thing that is troubling me now is.....I am doubting very seriously, that I will ever find the right person for me. I know that there are people who are out there who might appreciate me, I just don't know where or how I will ever find them since apparently, I haven't found them yet...and I'm getting a little too old for this non sense. It sad but true....but there are worse things that could happen. Se la vie.
J
Hi J....
Submitted by c ur self on
Based on what you are saying here it seems to me that between yourself and your T, you have just forced your W to c her self...And concede the truth about what is important to her., or at least what she has made important....The situation has evolved into her having to accept what type of Art work she is, and own it, even if it's not the pretty picture blame and denial has been painting for her....Basically You already knew all of this for quiet sometime...Because you have had to endure and experience it....
It's the human Dilemma...You will always know what is important to the person you watch live life each day, better than they do....(Like you said, we can't judge motivation, but, we absolutely see and experience the results) The desire to feel good about ourselves is always blinding, even to the point of living in an Illusion...I applaud you for getting to this point of clarity in your own life...And I am so grateful that your wife has at least reached the point of self awareness, or at the least confession of how she has been living....Without humility and self awareness there is no honesty, or confession, and there is no ability for real change....Now she has a chance...You did her a great service dear friend...Someday hopefully she will realize it....
As for as ADHD goes...I am sticking to what I said about it long ago....This is what I have written on the back page of Melissa's book...That I first shared with you over 3 years ago now....I have come to realize add/ADHD is a mute point, if; everyone who suffers from the effects of it, will ask themselves one question...What does the affects of my presents, words and actions have on others? Especially those who are forced to coexist with me? Then take the naked truth and determine in my heart that I'm going to live my life in such a responsible manner as to never dump on others or make excuses for anything I do or say that causes pain for them. No matter where this trail of responsible living leads me....
Of course this statement of how I desire to live life, (self expectation) is in my opinion good for any of us...Whether we have add/adhd or not....And there in is my point....
J I know you don't do this, you are wiser than this, but just as a reminder..You and I can never allow ourselves to make our wives, our marriages, our fast minds our identity....It's not who we are, and never will be....Be strong friend, and know that you are Loved....
C
Thank You So Much C........I Do Need Help at Times
Submitted by kellyj on
I have learned so much by coming here and just participating, and though I feel confident in myself enough to know, that I'm different and that's Okay. Different in the good and not so good ways always, but you can't change who you are, but you can change what you do and how you do it and that speaks directly to the challenges that I have at times. I had to allow enough opportunity, time and benefit of the doubt, and do what I've always done in that respect. Learning comes with failure. You cannot have one without the other and I have to give myself grace at times...even if no one else will. What I've got here is priceless because I get that grace I need. That is the real support I guess and simply knowing you are not alone. Even as I am, I have always known or learned a valuable lesson from a life time of learning and this is something that Henry Ford learned too, which resonated with me the first time I read this coming from his quote. I realized to the point, that I had already learned this going back long ago, so I guess this is something I take for granted without re-thing this too much.
As he said it..Failure is simply the opportunity to begin again, this time more intelligently. – Henry Ford This is the one place, that I never listened and for good reason. Because it's true. As long as I don't allow my failures to hurt others directly, if they don't like to see someone fail, or they are uncomfortable with people who fail or think they are "Losers" for doing so....then they don't understand this and they haven't learned why this is. What I haven't let get me down is simply failing in the process of learning. If someone wants to use that against me, then that's their problem as long as I am failing from making attempts and trying. I already know what is at the end of the line if I'm on that path so that doesn't really bother me much but with the caveat now ( from the past ) with the awareness of how that is effecting someone else if they are counting on me not to fail. When it counts. But if someone just can't stand to see someone fail, as if that is a reflection on them...then I get the really sense that they are using me to give their own status a boost, since they are too afraid or using that in order to make themselves feel better or look better by being in association with me. I don't identify with my failures I guess is what I'm saying. But I don't feel compelled to deny them since they are just a means to advance and to better than before. My wife has a problem with failure period. Failure in everyway you can imagine it ...it's bad and there is nothing good about it what so ever. She is so busy trying not to fail....that she doesn't fail or is afraid to and why she never learns. You cannot learn anything, unless you fail. No one, does anything the first time and is an expert at doing it. It's that perfectionist thing once again. If I'm perfect....then people with like me or think highly of me or only then they won't criticize me or shame me. If you only surround yourself with people who won't make you look bad, so in essence ...so you will look good. That's just moving the bar lower, and you never change yourself. This is what my wife I've finally come to the conclusion in, that it doesn't matter what I do or how good I do it, she will find fault or blame that has to do with me, so she can feel better about herself. That is bringing me down or lowering me and trying to....so she won't have to move of change herself. That constant negativity and constant invalidation does have an effect on you if you have to live it every day. And this really started to show itself more, the more I improved and better I got. The better I became, the more invalidating she would get. It is very difficult to think good things about yourself, when someone is doing that to you constantly. I don't have a problem with failing or someone pointing out when I do, what I have a problem with is when I'm succeeding and they are standing there pooping on it and saying I'm no good or I'm not doing very well, when in fact, I'm succeeding with no validation or anything positive coming from them. It was one of the first clues my T did give me early in office when he told of the fox and the sour grapes story...and I knew that was not being directed at me. I've been seeing him for so long now, that when I hear something like that come out for the first time ever, and there is only myself and my wife sitting his office.....he may be telling that to both of us, but I know where that belongs and it doesn't belong to me. Sour grapes has never really been my issue for the most part! LOL But being around it for too long really does bring you down or at least, shoots a hole in any motivation that you have. It's what I don't get when I come here, and that is always very supportive. I don't need any brownie buttons much any more and I can validate myself just fine ( for the most part ) but I really don't need anyone pissing in my soup, and making it any harder than it already is. LOL It's hard enough thank you very much, I don't need any help there for sure. LOL It's the wrong kind of help which is no help at all.LOL Having said, that, I do want to know when I screw up or could use some work in places too because that is how you learn. I've found I can learn something from anyone no matter who you are or what you know, everyone knows something that I don't, but would like to given the opportunity. I always appreciate your words and I appreciate very much just the opportunity to come here and join in and share what I got. Thank you, I do appreciate it.
J
J
Hi, J
Submitted by Chevron on
Hi, J
I'll have something to write back about what you wrote to me about ODD. It'll show up in a day or so. I've just read this post. It's so difficult to be in close quarters with someone who is not ready or inclined to change.
You wrote:
That is bringing me down or lowering me and trying to....so she won't have to move of change herself. That constant negativity and constant invalidation does have an effect on you if you have to live it every day. And this really started to show itself more, the more I improved and better I got. The better I became, the more invalidating she would get. It is very difficult to think good things about yourself, when someone is doing that to you constantly.
You already know this with your recognizing mind, so this is just reinforcement, J: if someone, married or not, gets his/her power, or grounding, from someone else, if that someone else starts to change, it's often that the first person starts to up the ante in some way, to get the second person to fall back into the old, familiar power dynamic, so first person's view and understanding, and who knows, habits and comforts, stay the same. Person One didn't plan on changing; Person Two upsets the apple cart by changing the way they do things. Person One doesn't sit and take the shift that they didn't plan for and they didn't like...they do things to get their understandable world and comfort zone back.
Hang on and steady as you go. It's part of the ride of change, while in a close in, high interface relation.
Go ahead and be your best. If your wife wants to be with you, even if she gives you a hard time and tries to get back to the old dynamics, she will adjust to the new you.
Today is Father's Day. I'm not one for thinking that a cultural definition, or the reigning chattering class definition of manhood is, in fact enduring manhood. Long story and I'll skip the particulars. There's gotta be room for men to be their own best man (and for women to be their own best woman). You go, J. One thing you're doing by heading for the high road and walking on it, is that you're leading her, with an at home example of possibility. As she's remarked she's 60, not a little girl to be forced or told what to do. But the best hope I think....I've had moments of thinking this in my own relation....is to go ahead and be your best you, in your self and in relation. Not to be knocked off course from going after the really good, as you can do good. : ) that's what in you you want her to figure out how to fit in with.