I was just able to fit these puzzle pieces together to form the larger picture. This is just for my own awareness which is always helpful.
Breaking this down:
OCD can be broken down into two components:
Thoughts and behaviors.
Similar to ADHD I suppose, everyone sees the behaviors ( the symptoms ) but they can't see the thoughts that go with them.
The thoughts can cause extreme anxiety and stress at times, which is how they link together. Anxiety.
The rumination causes the endless cycling through these thoughts ( intrusive in nature ). Longevity.
The catastrophic component causes them to ramp up or escalate to their worst possible conclusion, and / or, jumping to the worst possible end or conclusion.
And the emotional lability aspect cause them to amplify out of control. ( the over reaction ).
So under normal circumstances, a thought or experience to some outside influence that makes you irritated or in terms of rejection: angry, hurt, disappointed or sad, which are strong feelings or emotions that are difficult for most to deal with at times....
Most people can process it relatively quickly and get over it or manage to keep these feelings under control.
Someone like myself with ADHD and the OCD component has these thoughts get hijacked by the mechanism I just explained.
The thoughts get: hijacked ( which causes: anxiety), catastrophized, perpetuated and then amplified out of control.
And if these are negative thoughts are attached to a painful emotional experience, the end of this process ( the end of the chain) inevitably is not going to be very good.
Resulting behaviors and actions ensue. ( in an extreme way )
Anyway, this is helpful for me to be aware of this chain or process. Even if it's not exactly correct...the basic idea or purpose is to be aware to simply help manage and control it....and understand how these things all relate together.
At least it's helpful for me?
Makes sense to me....I will add....
Submitted by c ur self on
Also, when the spouse witness's these behaviors produced by the thoughts, their minds my immediately jump to empathy, concern, help or fix, etc...Many times they go strait to bewilderment because these behaviors or unnatural to their minds, they are not privy to the thought that produced it....Lost on understanding, so we should always be careful w/ our responses, to what we do not understand....
I'm Not Immune Either C
Submitted by J on
Just because a person has ADHD doesn’t mean we don't do the exact same thing ( maybe more ? ) by responding judgementally to things beyond our understanding. It's a natural thing to do, but it appears as hypocrital when we're pointing fingers while doung the same thing ourselves. Especially when we're far less than perfect. As they say, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.
I'm really beginning to solidify my understand of all of this better. I've always understand the concept that symptoms are only what other people see but they don't know why. A source of lifetime frustration.
But the concept of a person subconsciously reacting to something unseen changes everything if we assume they're aware and know why they're doing it. If they don't know, then that's the answer....they don't know. They can't really say anything more but yet, many times they do with what they "think they know". I do that all the time as well and many times I'm wrong. Its just part of the learning curve, but my batting average is better than it use to be! Lol I guess that comes with age?
Less than perfect.
Submitted by J on
My last comment just connected something for me in terms of "perfection" or being a "perfectionist".
Part of my understanding of what RSD is .in terms of symptoms, is becoming a perfectionist. This idea is pretty clear to me now. Being a perfectionist makes a person immune to criticism or beyond reproach. If you're perfect...no one can say anything...you're safe from being criticized and feeling shame....or being exposed as "less than perfect".
It's a subconscious defense mechanism against being rejected, usually under the radar of that person's awareness. It was for me until just recently but it makes perfect sense to me...
Which is why I made this post in the first place... for my own personal awareness more than anything else.
The concept of human perfection...
Submitted by c ur self on
When we push for perfection (which we know is unattainable, and I have sadly fit that mold before) we may be leaving a lot of things in our wake...Any false reality I demand to see myself in, usually ends or prevents ownership of what God an others are truly seeing....
Bewilderment C ....Opposite Reaction
Submitted by J on
I'm coming back to something you said.."many times, they go straightforward to bewilderment"
Something happened this morning that has happened before but this time it clicked. When I'm feeling attracted to my SO, and especially feeling in the mood to express these feelings, I'll do certain little tell tales like: gazing, moving closer ( moving in ) changing the tone of my voice which usually ends up with me kissing her. And depending on her mood...this behavior appears to be more annoying than welcome. And her reaction can be anything from mimicking, saying things like "okay,I'm trying to get ready", "why are you staring at me?" or any number of reactions that say that this behavior is bothering her in some way. This is has been going on for some time and there are times when I literally have taken a step back or saying..."Okay, I'll leave you alone now". It's been anywhere from downright offensive to hurtful to just annoying...but the immediate reaction is to step away. And the timing couldn't be worse in making me feel bad.
Or is it...the timing couldn't be more perfect to make a person step away? As in creating "distance"...which is exactly what it does.
I've noticed this for quite a while so this part is not new. This morning, when she said why are you staring at me ( while she was fixing her new hair cut ) ..I actually had to say "I'm not staring, I'm actually gazing at you because you look so pretty...and I like your new hair cut." I realize now...instead of picking up the cue that I'm feeling attracted and getting a positive feeling....just the opposite is happening and she's feeling uncomfortable.
Before she left for the day...I got closer to her to give her a kiss and she asked "why are you getting all sappy...are you feeling insecure? "
This was where I stopped and thought about this for a second. In the past, I might take offense or even feel hurt. But the look on her face was actually bewilderment? She really couldn't read what was happening or what I was feeling? Key word for her is "sappy". Sappy for her means "intimate"....I've known that for a while.
So in this potentially intimate moment, when ever cue I was putting out says "I'm attracted to you"....
She's getting ...."he must feel insecure" ( needy ) but is also kind of bewildered too. Like she's not exactly sure why I'm being this way?
I finally had to say " no, I'm not feeling insecure, I'm feeling attracted to you because you look so nice this morning with your new hair." Which she responded with approval and understanding and a smile. But I actually had to explain it to here...because at first, she didn't seem to understand?
I'm now understanding this all as a subconscious response or reaction of feeling too close and intimate in that moment. These reactions and things she does are from feeling uncomfortable from me initiating an affectionate encounter or being intimate. My love language is touching so in order to touch...you have to get close.
I can tell the uncomfortable part and have for a while. What I just picked up this morning is her genuine inability to read my feelings in that moment. In the midst of being triggered by her defense mechanism...she's not able to read what I'm feeling. The last thing I was feeling was insecure...which made absolutely no sense to me. But that look of bewilderment was what really tipped me off. She really didn't know...until I explained it to her.
PS
Submitted by J on
I'm not doing this all the time any more as I did when we first got together yet this reaction is pretty consistent under the same circumstances. It's just happened enough now that I can see the pattern.
Interesting J.....
Submitted by AG on
Interesting J.....
I sometimes react same to my husband.
I wonder if having a conversation about it and asking her her opinions, exploring her preferences of "love language" maybe hers are not touch like yours are. Ask her what she would want you to do instead of gazing, moving in etc....
Our Love Languages....
Submitted by J on
are very different. My top two are touch and quality time. Her top two are acts of service and gifts. Her's are easy for me....mine for her is where our problem together begins.
That is a good idea however...asking her what would be more comfortable instead. In the big picture though....any initiation on my part in showing affection, romance, love but especially sex has appeared to be the biggest issue. Me initiating anything along these lines is what seems to trigger her. So even talking about it or bringing it up feels like pressure for her. That would include me asking what way would be more comfortable. That would be like second base...when we're still on first. It still all boils down to fear of intimacy but kissing ( briefly...more like a smooch ) for now is acceptable most of the time as long as it's not too often.
She is aware of my love language as well.
Just a thought.
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
Perhaps her behavior stems from things that happened in past relationships.
With my fiance, I sometimes react that way.
I was married to someone who only gave me positive attention when he wanted sex.
How awful
Submitted by Swedish coast on
I'm sorry Adele, that sounds so heart wrenching.
Yes this is part of it AdeleS6845
Submitted by J on
Not only from the more recent past in short relationships, where the men only wanted sex, but from long ago when she was sexually abused at age 13 by her sisters husband who lived in the house at the time. She's even mentioned that her therapist had speculated current issues from the past but she didn't continue with the therapist long enough to get that part sorted out. I'm sure these things exacerbate our situation but I don't think it's at the heart of the matter.
We haven't had sex for a year an half and sex isn't really on the table right now. I've also talked to her and made it clear that I am not going to try and initiate sex for now. I haven't for a long time now.
What truly fits, and I feel confident what's happening is a push - pull dynamic between the two of us. The pushing away or distancing....and the pulling close or pursuing. In our case...my anxious attachment style is to pursue her when I feel her pushing away. This is what I'm trying to avoid and break this cycle.
A quick description of her style:
"Here are some common signs of fearful-avoidant attachment in adults, along with a brief description of what they might look like:
Inconsistency in relationships: Fearful-avoidant individuals may experience fluctuating emotions in their relationships, often oscillating between wanting closeness and pushing their partner away. They might seem warm and loving one moment, and distant or cold the next.
Heightened sensitivity to attachment triggers: These individuals are more likely to react strongly to perceived threats in their relationships, such as criticism or perceived abandonment. This can lead to frequent misunderstandings and conflicts with partners. ( perceived threat = intimacy for my SO )
Emotional distancing: Fearful-avoidant individuals might withdraw emotionally from their partners when they feel threatened, as a way to protect themselves from potential rejection or abandonment. This distancing can manifest as evasive behaviour, avoiding difficult conversations, or even sabotaging the relationship."
The evasive behaviors is what I'm talking about in this tread. Part of the "pushing away" I was experiencing. This usually happens if I'm pursuing, trying to initiate intimacy or sex or pressuring her for either. Since my main my love language is touch...it's mostly non-verbal.
I haven't done any of these things for a while now. I no longer pursue of initiate anything except a quick kiss on a limited basis. Too much and I'll be accused of being needy or insecure like this morning. It was just a spontaneous act in the moment because I was feeling affectionate. I need to be careful right now because we're doing great together and there hasn't been any pushing away ( distancing ) as soon as I stopped pursuing...she came closer on her own. As long as I don't upset the apple cart by trying to get more from her than she's ready....the "push/ pull " dynamic stops and she doesn't push away. The evasive, distancing behaviors is what hurts. We get along quite well under those circumstances as long as I let her come to me. The waiting is the hardest part. It takes a lot of patience.
Trauma? and besides
Submitted by Swedish coast on
I imagine a victim of sexual abuse might need to feel safer than most to want to participate in any sexual activity.
But also, let's be honest. To approach somebody sexually is not about what you feel, but what feeling you can arouse in the other person. They must like your advances, or those advances will always be threatening, disgusting or, at best, annoying.
I've left somebody long ago because they didn't get this. They were as sweet as can be, but didn't know how to tickle somebody else's desire, because they were focused on their own.
Didn't work.
Attraction Swedish
Submitted by J on
I believe this is exactly right. And I don't have to go any further than myself to understand this. I don't care how beautiful or physically appealing a woman is, if they've got something about them ( bad attitude ) or what ever else about their behavior or personality that makes them unattractive to me, I wouldn't want to have sex with them even if it was offered. Attraction has a lot more to do than just physical appearance or being nice.
This is a big part of why I'm listening to her when she uses the word "unattractive" in a sentence. That seems like the obvious place to start. If I think it's unattractive myself ( about myself ) then that only confirms it.
Chasing after her makes me feel pathetic. I don't like myself when I do and it also makes me feel insecure and anxious. I find myself unattractive and she's mentioned it too...the "insecure" part. In that regard, I don't blame her. That and feeling "needy". That also makes me feel pathetic and unattractive. Even if I understand it cognitively why that is, it doesn't do anything to help my situation. I point my finger at the asymmetrical aspect of this dynamic as well as where most of the power lies.
As I see it, being as secure as possible and needing less helps shift the balance and power back to center. The less I need...the more I get. Strange how that works but there it is.
Attraction
Submitted by Swedish coast on
To me, a person I feel strongly attracted to still needs to give me a chance to long for them, not perpetually chase after me which I dislike. So I think you're right.
Part of this is logistical...
Submitted by J on
Moving to a different state with no friends and unfamiliar territory and things to do makes it difficult to be separate except during work hours. I'm activity trying to remedy that as well. Going back to my old standard retreat and sanctuary.... skiing and the mountains. It's never failed before. She doesn't ski so I'll be going solo which is fine with me.