One of the most frequent questions that comes up is one of frustration – “how do I get my ADD spouse to listen to me about our problems?” The short answer is that you can’t if he doesn’t want to, but let me elaborate, as this is clearly at the heart of many struggling marriages.
I asked my husband for his input on this one, as engaging each other in serious conversations used to be one of our biggest issues (I wanted desperately to talk about and work out our/his issues. He didn’t.) His response? “I think the person asking the question needs to look at how, and what, they are asking.”
This may seem like non-advice, but consider this: When I most wanted to engage with George, I pressed my points rather emphatically. I was desperate to solve, or at least discuss, the issues that were bringing us both such pain. Because I felt I had gotten along in the world so well, I thought I had many great ideas about how to fix things. (He, on the other hand, had a failed first marriage to his credit.) Yet fairly soon after we got married he didn’t want to hear my ideas. Every time he refused to engage me I became more frustrated and angry. My frustration was clear in how I talked with him about getting together to talk…(“look, we’ve got problems here that we need to fix” – as in YOU have problems that need fixing. He knew well enough that if I thought that they were MY problems I would already have fixed them.) So, yes, I was hopeless, mad, frustrated…and after a while he had plenty of anger himself, which he also didn’t want to deal with. Retreat from dealing with these thorny issues was the easiest response. His retreat spurred me on even more to push for engagement. You can see how this would get to be a nasty downward spiral - fast.
We tried everything for the sake of trying it – to be able to say that we were working on things in our own ways – “I’ll be really nice to you for a few weeks and see if that changes things” was one approach, for example. That didn’t work - the underlying animosity comes through non-verbally anyway. We were still trying to change each other. I wanted to fix him. He wanted to punish me for my aggressiveness. Another approach we tried? Leave each other alone for a while (this is a bad way to resolve issues around not connecting, as you might imagine).
The reality is that you CANNOT engage someone who doesn’t wish to be engaged…and no one – ADD or not – wants to engage in difficult discussions in which they anticipate they are going to be roundly brought to task for bad behavior. The question shouldn’t be “how do I get my ADD spouse to listen to me?” The question needs be to “how do I entice participation?” This means coming fully to grips with the idea that you are not in control - at least not of him.
I found this out the hard way when I discovered my husband was seeing someone else. Even though I understood completely why he was seeing her (you can only take so much misery) it hurt like hell. (I should add here for fairness that the reason that I understood why he was seeing her was because I had had an affair earlier in our marriage for the same reason – being miserable and needing positive reinforcement.) He happened to be in Europe when I found out, and in two weeks the girlfriend was scheduled to join him for a romantic week in France. In this situation I was finally FORCED to understand that I did not, and never would, control my husband’s actions. I had no say over what he would choose to do, who he would be, or what his behavior would be. I realized, too, that I would never have a say about whether he chooses to address any of his ADD symptoms that might bother me. The only control I had ever had was over my response to him - I just had never realized it.
This was a revelation. It’s easy to “say” you have no control over someone else. It’s a completely different thing to KNOW you have no control, and accept it. You behave differently – a whole lot better. Not only could my husband leave, he had a lonely, never-married 40-year old who was madly in love with him waiting in the wings. He had alternatives. I, now, was looking at my sphere of influence in a completely different way. Yes, I was to have a relationship with this man forever (we have 2 kids), but it wasn’t going to be on just my terms. And it might not be as a couple. Suddenly, all that bitching seemed pretty stupid and short-sighted.
I wonder whether, when people ask the question “how do I get my husband to work on our problems?” they aren’t really asking “how do I get my husband to sit down and start doing what I want him to do?” The answer is you don't if he doesn’t want to. And he won’t want to if he feels as if you are going to beat him up. You can argue that “being married” means you have an “obligation”. Maybe on the surface this is true. But my own experience is that talking to a man who doesn’t wish to be there talking to you is not only a waste of time, it is counterproductive in every possible way. Put enough counter-productive time together and first thing you find is that the romance is gone…second thing you find is that it’s gone somewhere else.
This is not to say that no man will ever sit down and talk to you. Quite the contrary – a husband worth his salt will do so when you request it – simply because you request it - and sometimes will also initiate the conversation when needed. What I’m saying is that he does it because he chooses to do it. Because he thinks that he has something to gain from sitting down with you. Because he feels warmly enough about how you are going to interact that he thinks that the discussion is going to be productive. Sometimes because he thinks that not sitting down with you is going to be so counterproductive that it’s not worth resisting.
My own story? We had only two weeks to work out whether our marriage was over or not. My revelation about my own lack of power ended up being a turning point for me, as was the advice from Dr. Hallowell that I’ve related here before – stop thinking about fixing your marriage and start thinking about creating a happy life for yourself. My focus shifted away from “what my husband needs to do” to “what I needed to do to take control of my own happiness”.
Though superficially it might seem that my husband was holding all the power here, my revelation, and my shift in focus, actually put us on more equal footing. I realized that I not only didn’t need my husband to be happy but probably wasn’t going to have any say in whether we continued to be married. This was very liberating. It allowed me to shift my focus from our marriage (and all that bad stuff) to re-finding the person I had been (good stuff) – the optimistic, thoughtful, creative, outgoing and more confident person I remembered. Worrying about our marriage had turned me into a nag, in fact a real bitch. I had pushed so hard that I had created a living nightmare – all in the name of “fixing things” when in fact the dynamic was just the opposite. The harder I pushed, the worse things got. And I don’t know about you, but while I’m capable of being really, really mean, I don’t like myself when I am. No wonder he didn’t like me, either!
So I just stopped pushing, right then and there. For good (this is true - you can ask him!). Yes, we had some weepy conversations on the phone about our plight and about how hard it was that we had gotten where we had gotten. We grieved separately and alone. But I was no longer accusing him – I was just trying to understand and let it all go. We actually laughed…and then flirted. Things felt different – at last. And I was finally humbled enough to realize that every good partnership is a partnership of choice, not coercion. The change in me – and how I was treating him - was so pronounced that the night before his girlfriend was to board the plane he called her and asked her to stay home. I went over, instead, and we began – finally - to forget about our marriage, and repair our friendship and partnership.
The bottom line is this – a husband who will never, ever, engage with you to work on your relationship is not a great husband. But usually by the time you are reading this blog his lack of engagement is as much a reflection of how the two of you are interacting as anything else. (I assume you used to interact satisfactorily or you wouldn’t have gotten married.) It’s neither fair nor realistic to expect him to engage when your agenda is to “fix things”, and specifically, “fix him”. That’s not a conversation. That’s forcing him to be a certain way – your way.
I’m not trying to depress you here. Just the opposite. I’m trying to provide a positive alternative to hitting your head against the proverbial wall over and over again.
Yes, he has issues. His anger hurts you and the kids. He spends money frivolously. He is not focused on you enough. He can’t hold down a job….insert your painful issue here. As long as he feels you are trying to coerce him, he’s not going to make the effort to change. In fact, if he’s like my husband, he’ll start to work against what you want (subtly) just to prove that he’s independent.
Good relationships are about lots of hard work…but they are also about carrots rather than sticks. So be your best. If he doesn’t want you when you are at your best, then he doesn’t deserve you in any case. You want to be your best for your own mental and physical health (which declines when you are in turmoil over not being able to change him). To be cynical about it –you may as well be the best that you can be now before you get divorced, rather than wait to be forced into it by dating again. Being thoughtful, kind and caring may not solve your problems, but it sure won’t add to them! So, if he irritates you, put it aside. If he is angry, move out of the line of fire. Provide opportunities to connect in happy ways. Don’t stop communicating – just don’t insist on a specific solution. Be humble. Benefit from what I learned without having to go through the pain first hand.
This will end up a win/win for you. Either you will stop your own downward spiral that you are currently in with your husband and your husband will move out of his defensive posture and start to engage with you again, or you will find he isn’t able to appreciate the real you and won't respond. Either way, you are true to yourself and creating your own happiness. You will be a better place than now.
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What about accountability
Accountability
Yes, people with ADD absolutely need to be accountable for their actions. Ned Hallowell's excellent way of stating this is to say "ADD can be an explanation for a behavior, but it should never be an excuse." In other words, not adjusting to the world around you - i.e. being accountable for your actions - means that you will, eventually, suffer consequences for this. In the case of a bad relationship, the consequences are that your family may leave you. If you drink to self medicate, rather than find other ways to address your ADD, you may become alcoholic and suffer the consequences of that.
People with ADD live with the consequences of their actions every day. For me, the trick of living with a person with ADD is deciding where am I personally going to be part of those consequences, and when am I not. (With the goal of minimizing when I am part of those consequences!) Here are some examples: Many ADD people are late to things. I've seen examples where chronic tardiness has actually torn relationships apart. In that case, the non-ADD partner took it upon himself to punish the ADD partner every time she was late because he felt embarassed by it. To me, there are other solutions. Rather than having the consequence of tardiness be breaking up, I would choose to have the consequence be that the late person with ADD gets to drive separately - whenever she (in this case) is ready. So the fact that the ADD person has ADD means that things may still not be exactly as YOU might like them (perhaps the host isn't as happy as could be, or the couple doesn't have as much fun because they are only there for 1 hour at the same time instead of 3) But the consequence is lessened because in the big scheme of things it doesn't matter - at least not to me - that we go to a party together (not so for that other couple, I'm sorry to say, who broke up). In this case, ADD becomes a reason to believe that the person genuinely has difficulty being on time and cutting them slack - while also findind a solution that doesn't impact the non-ADD spouse's life too much.
In the case of the son who harms the other child on the playground - yes, there should be consequences for that. BUT, they should be the same consequences that someone else of the same age would receive. Kids with ADD tend to repeat the same mistakes over and over again because they don't internalize the comments as quickly (maturation issues, memory issues, impulsiveness issues etc.) I would not punish a child with ADD in an cumulative way (as in "you always do that - I've told you not to do that before"). It's not effective, and in the long term can lead to self-esteem issues. So, just as with the tardiness issue above, knowledge of ADD becomes a reason for making sure you remain empathetic and moderate what could become an overly harsh response. (In the case of children with ADD it is always a good policy to assume that the child is trying as hard as he or she can and figure out ways to enable different behavior, rather than punish the child.)
In the case of an adult in an ADD marriage who is doing the same things over and over again - on the one hand, you have to understand that the person legitimately has trouble with specific behaviors. That adult isn't doing these behaviors because he enjoys the mess that follows, but because the behaviors are part of him and not yet controlled. On the other hand, there are consequences to not addressing long-standing issues that are really important. In this case, the consequences are what you and your husband are living through - your marriage goes down the tubes...perhaps you even get divorced. It is unfair to say that adults with ADD don't have consequences - they have them every day. The issue is "what are they going to DO about the consequences?" I find that most non-ADD spouses of ADD partners are really encouraged when their ADD spouse TRIES to change things and keeps experimenting. It is the refusal (or fear) of trying that leaves one hopeless. (Implicit in this, of course, is that with enough trying and enough support a person with ADD can find a system that works for them. In this day, with so much known about ADHD and with all the non-medicinal treatments available I believe that this is true.)
For example, one husband I knew used to get angry frequently and without warning. His wife would get angry back or tell him it was unacceptable. But he was truly having trouble controlling his anger, so this only added to the problems and escalated the situation. As the consequences of his anger built (his marriage started to fall apart) he finally tried a different solution - low doses of medication for ADD. Even the husband was surprised at how different it felt to live his life without anger.
So, back to your own case. You should not be positioning yourself to enable your husband to behave badly. Part of becoming more reliant on yourself is separating yourself from suffering the consequences of his actions a bit. It's unrealistic to think that might be able to position yourself so that you won't suffer any consequences from your husband's behavior, but by not enabling him you give him the message that he is responsible for himself, and that you are going to take control of your own life - i.e. that you don't need to put up with crap. (This should not be communicated through angry words - for then you become the embodiment of every mean teacher and bad girlfriend he's ever had. This is just "look, I'm a good person and I like myself and I'm worth more than living in a situation that is poisonous to me. I'm really hoping that we can find middle ground here, but I'm not going to suffer forever if we don't."
There is some place which is specific to you which is the intersection of the empathy and inventiveness needed to best live with a spouse with ADD and "consequence". There are lines - some of which are simply uncrossable. By focusing on who you want to be, rather than on "fixing your husband" or "fixing your marriage" I think you will find that those lines become clearer. By setting your own lines, rather than setting his (which you can't do in any case) you create a clear set of standards by which you live and make decisions. Your husband isn't stupid - he's just behaving in a way that is hard to take (and doesn't make sense to you - hence it seems stupid). He understands there are consequences. When those consequences are clear, and when you have created a safe place for him to start to address his own issues, then he can make a decision - do I TRY or not? Do I overcome my fear, or not?
If he can't find it in himself to try when you have created an environment in which he can try to treat his symptoms without fear, then your own path will become clearer. Does that make sense?
As a final thought - you will likely ask the question "when will I know when I've created that safe environment?" He'll be able to tell you. (If he tells you you are just waiting to criticize him, control his life, or otherwise beat him up, you're not there yet. And if you look at it and genuinely think that you have created an accepting environment and he's just blind, it's okay to nicely say "I haven't criticized you in over three months" etc.)
I liken it to creating a great environment for an ADD child (you'll get that one next!) Empathy with thoughtful and consistent structure seems to work well, topped by a never-ending flow of love. (See the article on what it's like to have ADD at www.drhallowell.com resources section for some interesting reading (under teens).
Melissa Orlov
Thank you
Sacrifice
Marriages, like parenting, do require some sacrifice - in both directions. If you are the only one doing the sacrificing then you don't have a balanced relationship and may not find it satisfying enough to stay in it long term.
What I try to help people do is come to a more complete understanding of what can work in an ADHD marriage and under what circumstances you will be most likely to be able to "meet in the middle" in a way that is not only satisfying, but exciting.
That seems like a pretty long road from where you are now, but it is possible. But please do not interpret my words to mean that you should suffer alone for the rest of your life!
Good luck!
Melissa Orlov
What do you do when your
won't hold a job
I am interested in your point that you won't get a job to support the two of you if he won't get one. Yours is clearly a highly politicized relationship! If you are living on pennies, it seems as if it would be a good idea for SOMEBODY to start bringing in some money! My assumption is that you would need to get a job were you not married...this leads me to think it is your disappointment at his inability to provide as a husband that is getting in your way here. If you get divorced, you'll end up working, so try to keep your disappointment in him from taking a clear-eyed look at your financial situation.
You have the right to as much financial security as you can create for yourself as you age. As you don't have children, you may wish to simply get divorced and stay connected romantically. But if you do this, recognize that you also "free" him to see other women and it is likely that he will do this, as your relationship is not in a positive place right now. The other side of that is that you free yourself as well, and perhaps you will be happier with someone you feel financially more comfortable with.
This is a bad time to be an entrepreneur, and the rate of success for new businesses is about 1 in 10. What was he doing before the last 6 years, and can he do it again? Or perhaps just take a temporary job to bring in money, and do his start-up activities on the side (many, many people do this as they need to put food on the table).
One mistake that many frustrated non-ADD spouses make is to think that if they threaten loudly enough, their ADD spouse will suddenly "get in line" and shape up. The opposite is actually true. The louder you threaten him about leaving, or nag him about getting a job, the more oppositional his behavior will become (you've already seen this, I expect). So I think your decision is really between these two options: Do you calm down, get a job so that you jointly have some money, and try being more empathetic? Or do you simply throw in the marital towel and move on to a stage in which you are less reliant on each other?
I have heard of couples who have successfully made the transition to pulling themselves apart (either by moving into two households, even though they were married, or by divorcing) and still remaining involved with each other. If you decide to take this route, stay away from divorce lawyers and use a mediator instead (studies show that the relationships that are left after mediation are better than those left after divorce). But divorce is tough, and you'll likely find yourself needing to move on completely.
You may want to take an "in between" path by putting a time-frame on a solution. For example, you find a job and tell him that you want him to start bringing in money - any money - from any job within 6 months. (I don't see how you can insist that he find a job if you are unwilling to do so yourself) If he doesn't care enough about your relationship to put in the effort to contribute financially in some way then you wiill need to divorce simply to protect your financial future.
I don't know what the legal implications are of this - and whether getting a job might put you in the position of needing to pay him alimony of some sort - so check with a lawyer before making your final decision. Also, I would check to see what your rights are with separate bank accounts. I suspect that as his spouse you may still be responsible for half of any debt he racks up...again, check on this so that you konw what financial risks any specific path may pose for you.
Good luck with it!
Melissa Orlov
Thanks Melissa for your post
Hi Diana, I just read your
I can relate. i have been
My heart goes out to you. I
I am really confused? i
Punishment for ADHD
When you say "punishment" I hope you are referring to methods that they will be repairing the harms that they caused. If someone really has ADHD they are not always thinking about what they are doing. They may do one thing while thinking of another- its invoulntary and can't be controlled. I make this distinction because punishment really refers to how your are going to get "even" for the the transgression that took place. Believe me, people with ADHD are constantly feeling the consequences of their inabilities to control their behavior without an external disciplinarian. This said, ADHD is not an excuse for behavior but it is a significant factor in their behavior that is helpful for understanding how you set your expectations for their behavior. I get the feeling that you are confusing sociopathy here with ADHD- yes, they share that similiar low impulse control at time but sociopaths don't feel the same degree of connectedness that normal people would feel or even feel their emotions in the same way. People with ADHD may do things that hurt people unintentionally (whether physically or emotionally) because they might not been able to stop themselves or think about what they were doing ahead of time but they certainly feel remorse for their behavior. I personally have ADHD and I constantly feel like I'm being judge on a series of impossible behaviors for me to naturally do-- and this does cause me a good deal of anxiety, which from what I understand of others who have ADHD is very common. Sometimes I try to have a serious conversation about things I'm trying to improve and I can't stay focussed on the task, giving the impression that I don't care. Meds have helped me greatly in this area and other than a very focused interest in personal improvements, folk remedies such as counseling, diet changes and exercise are completely ineffective. My point being, make sure your not with a sociopath- they share ADHD prognosis but really don't have the same emotions and feelings. Sorry, this probably doesn't help much but if someone really doesn't care about hurting people or feel remorse for thier actions, it is a valid consideration.
Communicating with ADD spouse
So True
Melissa,
This post is absolutely true, and even though I don't think you intended as advice for someone to leave, this is just what I needed to read in order to solidify my decision. I used to be so jealous of women who would talk about their husbands taking them out to eat, going shopping with them, bringing home some little trinket, flowers, music, whatever. Even simple things like a woman that I work with who's husband reminds her to get her bangs cut and that it's time for a pedicure. I have been neglecting myself in an effort to keep us together and resenting him the whole time for it. It's time to stop resenting him and get on with my life.
Sociopath Next Door
First let me say, I do not believe that everyone who has ADHD is a sociopath. However, I do believe a sociopath can have ADHD. This is my (now ex) husband. I stumbled across this revelation quite by accident many months ago.
Like many, I struggled with dealing with my undiagnosed ADHD husband for many years. After he was diagnosed, I cried for all of the wasted years and was elated at the hope of finally being able to live in a "normal" marriage. But this didn't happen. In fact, he got worse. Even reading the posts on here didn't fill in all of the gaps of his bahavior. When Melissa would post that even though your husband was doing these awful things, "he still loves you deeply," I knew she wasn't right in my case. It was more than my husband "fell out of love" with me. It was more than a lack of empathy. He had a lack of real deep attachment to anyone. It all seemed like an act. A very good act which I bought into many times. He had the Jekyll/Hyde personality. In my search for answers, I thought he might be bipolar. But he just didn't fit the profile. After going through the profiles of a lot of other mental disorders, the only one left was sociopath. I had dealt with criminal sociopaths and didn't feel he fit this category. Afterall, he hadn't drowned any puppies when he was growing up (that I knew of). He actually seemed to be an animal lover (yet another ruse that later was exposed). But I ran through the profile of the sociopath anyway, just out of boredom. I was shocked when he fit all of the signs. He couldn't be.....could he?
"The Sociopath Next Door" has answered the rest of my questions that the diagnosis of ADHD didn't answer. Yes, in my opinion, he is a sociopath. When I look back at his whole life, all of the answers are now there...from the lack of true emotional attachments, to the manipulation of people through flattery and pity, to the lack of being a team player. (Yes, some of these behaviors correspond with ADHD behaviors...but this is more.) I had been describing his behaviors to people for years, just not realizing that I was describing a "sociopath next door." He even used his diagnosis of ADHD to seek pity. He was in a position of power and leadership, so people would often defer to his behavior. This didn't stop people from hating him as he berated and belittled them. But those who saw him do "the good things in the community" (which he did just to get and keep the position of power) thought he was wonderful (except for the few who saw through this ruse, too). He carefully manipulated those close to him to cover for him, including me and my family. The people he used flattery on, especially the women, thought he was fabulous. It never even entered their minds that they really didn't look as young as their daughters. People hear what they want to hear. He seemed to be able to con the women easier than the men. And when he couldn't con someone, they became his mortal enemy and the game to "win" began.
I have to say I am relieved to know that all people with ADHD aren't bad like him. I now know that a lack of empathy doesn't mean that the person doesn't care for the person he/she is hurting. I also know that you can't judge all situations by your own. Thank you for whoever posted the link to this book. This is helping me close a long chapter of my life so I can move on and seek happiness.
Jeannie
P.S. He has gone through a lot of women in the year since I left him. He told all of them he loved them, at least until they rejected him. He is also on all of those dating sites and meeting new women from distant states. Please, please beware.
Sociopath and ADHD
I have a family member FAS and is taking ADHD drugs for his behavior. It makes a huge difference in his behavior and I know that it was prescribed for low impulse control but I don't believe that he has ADHD. FAS and Sociopathy have identical symptoms, making me think that it may be one in the same (or a cause for one). I'm convinced now that he is a sociopath, which is pretty sad because he is only 16 and most likely due to his mothers drug and alcohol abuse. His symptoms include low impulse control, fascination with fire, shakes uncontrollably when he eats sugar (though denies it), innapropriate sexual behavior and doesn't share emotions with people. He does however have strong feelings for animals and often regresses into baby talk and childlike behavior when he sees them. I take this as a positive sign that he shares feelings with animals in this way. I asked him recently if he feels the same kind of feelings when he sees an animal get hurt with when a person gets hurt or he steals something ect. and he said "no". He was somewhat interested in this and asked if thats how other people feel about eachother... then he asked if he could learn how to do this. So sad, it was a genuine question from him and he is aware that he experiences the world differently than other people. Unfortunatly this different way of experiencing reality will ultimately find himself in prison when he either hurts someone else or overreacts to something minor. I really do wish there was a way to help him but I'm afraid that every way designed to help people like him only teach them to be better manipulators.
Revolutionary thoughts
I think what you shared is rather revolutionary - thank you! I copied/pasted your words into a file for myself to live by. My quesiton is, how did you learn to do this (let go, be kind, etc.) without being resentful? I tend to start focusing on my own life and happiness but I have so much resentment and bitterness brewing over his behavior. How did you work yourself out of that b/c I imagine you struggled with that - or at least dealt with that internally as well.
I hope you get this and respond!
Wonderful message!!!!