Trying to avoid feelings of shame is only human, but when it comes to adult ADHD, gentle engagement with raw areas can lead to significant gains. But how to do that, when shame feels so bad? These ideas, provided by adults with ADHD, can help both ADHD partners and non-ADHD partners.
The 8 Shame Busters
Assume good will. One ADHD partner noted that he “never assumes malice. I know that my partner does whatever she can to help. And everybody needs to do whatever they can to get better every day.” This fits in with my theory that observably working on the issues associated with ADHD symptoms creates a reservoir of good will in a non-ADHD partner. That partner cannot ask you to do more than try in the best and smartest way you can. Non-ADHD and "other ADHD" partners do well to approach areas that trigger shame responses carefully, making sure not to parent or try to control the ADHD partner. Sharing ideas that sound like criticism or education to affect change in ADHD partners does not help and, in fact, hurt.
Change the narrative. One ADHD partner beats himself up because he finishes about 80% of any project. His partner notes that his amazing ideas and willingness to initiate are what make him so successful. Ned Hallowell notes that there are ‘starters’ and ‘closers’ and often they are not the same people. Trying not to be perfect (in this case both a starter and a closer) is a really good thing. Sometimes journaling about the positive can help remove some of the negative thinking. In this case, focusing on the amazing ideas and accomplishments is more productive than focusing on not being a closer.
Accept. Along that same theme – allowing that you have physiological issues and they ‘just are’ helps a lot. It frees you to stop feeling so much shame, and start working on the issues in whatever way best suits you (in the memory example earlier, for example, accepting that memory issues are a way of life for you – helps you relax and allows you to focus on good things. With a math learning disability I know I’ll never be good at math so I tend to avoid it…but I know I’m a good writer so it doesn’t bother me. Same can happen with aspects of your ADHD.
Get out of parent/child. This remains a poisonous interaction. Couples that are still in it need to ‘reset’ to a non-parent/child relationship. The start to doing this is for non-ADHD partners to internalize this concept “I AM NOT AT ALL IN CONTROL OF MY PARTNER’S ACTIONS OR INTENTIONS AND I NEVER WILL BE. AND ANY TIME I TRY TO BE, I WILL END UP IN A WORSE PLACE WITH MY PARTNER.” This is a critically important concept. Parent/child interactions almost always trigger either shame or anger, or both.
Avoid… Non-ADHD partners should learn where their partner’s pain points are, and simply avoid them. No good comes from hitting a raw nerve, and if there are specific critical phrases you use that are common triggers, make it your responsibility to stop using them. (This is the same concept as avoiding ‘he said/she said’ fights…no good comes out of having them. Ever.)
Don’t Avoid. ADHD partners should stop retreating from the pain points, and acknowledge and accept them, gently learning to live with these areas…the goal would be to both set up support structures to help you get around the area of shame AND to learn to tell yourself ‘I feel this shame/pain now, but if I don’t engage with it, it will dissipate soon enough.”
Get support if it helps. As one partner said, hearing other people’s views and issues is helpful. Reach out to others (including therapists trained in ADHD or in support groups) about shame areas.
Learn to express feelings constructively, so you hold back less. In my Recovering Intimacy in Your Relationship self-study course I help couples (and particularly ADHD partners) learn to better identify and then express their own feelings in a way that their partner can understand and hear. This is an important part of being able to deal with your pain and shame – identifying the feelings that lie together with that shame when it is triggered and, once your relationship is calm enough, be able to express and address them.
Think patterns, not individual events. Many non-ADHD partners make the mistake of focusing on individual events or lapses. But think about it. Would you want your partner to comment or get upset every single time you made a mistake? Instead of focusing on individual events, non-ADHD partners should hold back and see if a pattern develops. If it does, then talk about the pattern at a time when the relationship is relatively calm (i.e. not in the middle of a fight.) This is the scenario that is least likely to trigger shame while also most likely to result in meaningful improvement.
A real life example for ADHD partners
Let’s say you feel shame at memory issues. When you forget something (yet again!) you feel shame and beat yourself up about how you should have done better. But if you have mindful awareness of that shame, instead, you can:
- Notice your bad feelings
- Tell yourself that they will disperse if you don’t engage with them
- Create a specific plan or structure to deal (over the long term) with the area creating the shame
Here’s what that plan in step 3 might look like:
- Learn to accept that the memory issues are physiological, not some sort of shortcoming in learning on your (the ADHD partner’s) part, and that memory issues will remain. An ADHD partner might gain this acceptance by journaling, mindfulness training, or working with a therapist about the impact of shame in his or her life.
- Create a memory structure for yourself – a great calendaring system that you use to stay on task; using workflowy or some other app on your phone to catch fleeting thoughts before they disappear; creating an alarm system to bring important things into the now. Make sure meds you are taking allow enough focus to capture ideas as they happen (if you don’t focus on a conversation at the time, then you have more trouble capturing and remembering it.)
- When you experience an emotional pain point, accept that it is there – acknowledge “that’s painful…but if I don’t engage any further with this pain I know it will go away again”
- CELEBRATE that you have come to terms with this issue and that you have created ways to deal with it.
You Can Diminish Shame
Shame is a difficult emotion to deal with…but using this combination of approaches can help you learn to move away from it and help your non-ADHD or 'other-ADHD' partner learn to interact more positively in the areas that feel most raw.
- MelissaOrlov's blog
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Comments
Brene Brown on Shame
Great stuff! Even though I am the parent of a young man with ADHD, I feel I need to remember this, too, now that he is grown:
Get out of parent/child. This remains a poisonous interaction. Couples that are still in it need to ‘reset’ to a non-parent/child relationship. The start to doing this is for non-ADHD partners to internalize this concept “I AM NOT AT ALL IN CONTROL OF MY PARTNER’S ACTIONS OR INTENTIONS AND I NEVER WILL BE. AND ANY TIME I TRY TO BE, I WILL END UP IN A WORSE PLACE WITH MY PARTNER.” This is a critically important concept. Parent/child interactions almost always trigger either shame or anger, or both.
And, thought this would be apropos here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psN1DORYYV0
It was posted at Jacqueline Sinfield's blog about ADHD, Untapped Brilliance:
http://untappedbrilliance.com/adhd-and-shame/?awt_l=5T6bk&awt_m=3iOu3TcR...
Acceptance is the doorway and the key.
Thank you for your blog! Any chance that we'll see Part 2?
Hello, Melissa
Thank you for your very valuable blog posts about shame on 5/2 and 5/9. I had noticed that my ADHD husband responds to some situations, let's say in the workplace, or being treated by staff in doctor's offices remarking that he had been treated with disrespect. I had also noticed that he mentions feeling disrespected more often than other people that I know who talk about the workplace or what goes on in the doctor's office. I gathered that he must have a larger set of shame triggers than some other people. From that I presumed that I would set off his shame triggers of course any time I did something callous or willfully disrespectful of him...of course...but watching him manifest shame more often that other people in similar situations, it was obvious that as well that he probably had some hidden triggers that I hadn't been able to observe or that he hadn't told me yet. Your blog list encourages me to think this way...that there are hidden as well as observed shame triggers in him. I want his happiness; of course I don't want to do something that leads to him feeling bad about himself.
But on the other hand, I can't walk on eggshells all day 24/7, trying not to set off the shame triggers that he's told me that he has; the few more that, learning about his past, I guess from his past that he might have; also all the potential shame triggers that might or might not be there in a still larger network of triggers that I can't guess are in his life or not, because he hasn't said they're there, they haven't fired off yet that I've seen, and I don't yet know all of his early life history to think about the unexpressed ones yet. Since some of his shame triggers that I know of, and am avoiding, are ones that I wouldn't have predicted anyone having (such as becoming upset at "tone" of disrespect used by a clerk in a doctor's office that I can't hear myself), the world of imagining what might shame my husband is not completely predictable.
No one on this earth can live walking on all those kinds of eggshells, daily. I would be gaslighting myself half the time, to no good end, to no benefit to my husband, anxious not to set off something hidden that might or might not be there at all.
I need to be sensitive, but not get myself completely tied up in anxious knots trying desperately to avoid setting him off, making him unhappy or angry. I grew up that way as a child. It's no way to live.
Yet thank you for the list, which to me is most valuable because it gives readers very emphatic professional communication that people with ADHD more probably than not will have shame triggers. I CAN open my heart to my husband more regarding what I don't yet know about him because he hasn't named it or shown me, about his particular historical pain points in shame. I've sometimes tried to morally dwell on what it is like to be a human being growing up who is hammered over and over again for not acting like other children, not doing tasks the way others do, having perhaps a slow emotional maturation curve, and so get picked on by other kids and parents and teachers....what happens to a growing person's accumulation of anxiety, self doubt, possibly even self loathing, after multiple hits of criticism? THAT is what I thank you for, with your list. To me it's a call to considering his shame issues (visible and invisible to me) with a morally open heart...to keep that heart open, on the matter of his shame reactions. I do think he's been through a lot...he does have some stories to tell me of things he's been through that would scar anyone who went through them...
And....not but, and:
Where's Part 2? The other half of the subject?
What about talking to people who have ADHD about things that sometimes, or even more regularly, get done to partners who don't have ADHD that end up shaming non ADHD partners?
There are some regularly reported behaviors that at least as I've seen people talk about themselves, can contain shame triggers. Some of them are in threads that have been kept alive for years. One is being discussed on the forum right now, and I am so very hot under the collar about matters of the dignity of the person without ADHD involved, that I had better stand down from any remarks in the thread.
What could possibly shame a marriage partner who didn't have ADHD?
1) Being told regularly that they are stupid, ugly, mean, a constant screwup.
2) Being interrupted with out cease, talked over or shouted down regularly, regularly quarantined to minimum contact by insistence on silence or insistence on using electronic equipment
3) Being criticized, especially unfairly, in front of the children
4) Being criticized, talked over, shouted down, or ignored when in a group of other adults outside of the house. Or on the street. Or in restaurants.
5) Being promised that something would be done, and then that thing wasn't done. It's OK once, It's OK as a normal course of life with someone with ADHD, but promises that never get fulfilled end up saying that the person promised isn't worth action.
6) Being gaslighted a lot; being lied to a lot; being decoyed persistently into parent behavior when the non ADHD partner has no desire or intention for that. It's humiliating to be a spouse, but treated like the parent of a very small child.
7) Being cheated on sexually. Being replaced by pornography.
8) Abandonment
9) Not bathing, not brushing teeth, not offering real help, not taking responsibility. Yes, if done all the time, it leads to the other person feeling not valued.
10) Members of your forum can contribute more items All that they would need to be asked is, name one regular treatment of you by your spouse that over time led you to feeling ashamed of yourself or that you had no dignity. Just one, not a gripe list.
...this has been a subject on my mind for awhile as I've read on the net about ADHD/ADD: where is the advice published to people with ADHD about what probable impact certain behaviors will have on their spouses if they do them regularly? Getting past the remarks about listening better and doing tasks at home.
My ADHD husband and I are doing a not perfect but pretty good job of talking about what shames either of us or supports the dignity of either of us because he and I both understand personal honor similarly. We understand that both of us are worthy of respect. This post is not a profile of the two of us at the moment. Some on the list my husband would never, ever do to anyone.
I'm writing to you asking what about people with ADHD disrespecting or shaming other people, because I'm a member of the group, married, living with ADHD, don't have ADHD. We are a real group, with some shared challenges. Not all of us have the same challenges generated by ADHD related behavior, but often quite a few of us recognize that the habitual behavior described is going on in our house too. There are quite a few marriages that contain non-ADHD partners, who of course are worthy of respect as well. Do you give any advice to people with ADHD about not shaming their family members? Or suggestions to them about communicating respect to people who don't have ADHD?
See comment below
I was editing and inadvertently re-posted. Wish there was a delete option here.
Acceptance is the doorway and the key.
Now...I'm not Melissa,
Now...I'm not Melissa, obviously, but want to share some thoughts.
I'm glad that your husband doesn't do most of what you describe as shaming behavior of ADHD toward their partners. That you have mutual consideration and respect.
I think, if this is how someone's partner behaves toward them, whether or not ADHD is involved...what we have to understand is that our feelings about ourselves get projected onto others, especially in close relationships. So if there is such a level of disrespect as displayed in those "shaming" behaviors...this is how the person feels about him/herself. No respect.
In that case, I doubt it would do much good to explain to them how their behavior is affecting others. Until they are able to get to a place of understanding, appreciating, and yes, loving the self, their relationships are going to be a mess.
A quote from a spiritual book, Personal Power Through Awareness:
The more people act mean, the more they are afraid, and thus the more they need your love. Do not forget to send your love to those who appear to be the most unlovable, for they are the ones who are crying out the most loudly for love. Find reasons to love the unlovable, to care for people who act in destructive ways. There is not one person alive who does not grow from the broadcast of love.
It is understandable that most will emphatically not love those who act in unloving ways. That we may even hate them for putting us through all of that. I know it is a tall order to stay in a loving space, but this is what will help heal everyone concerned. I think IslandGirl23's posts about her progress with her husband are instructive. She learned not to react, but to detach and then reconnect with love. And she reports that the relationship has improved greatly. Example, she wrote, in response to a question about handling anger outbursts:
Yes, I would say that my husband had anger issues and IMO he still does to a certain extent. I would say that the MOST difficult thing for me to work through in all this was his constant COMPLAINING. He did have outbursts and would get heated relatively quickly about the smallest things (ex. lost keys that ended up being in the pocket of the pants he was STILL wearing). How I managed to deal with it was, I'd tell him how I felt in the moment as soon as I noticed my mood going down (without actually explaining what he was doing to upset me) and then I'd leave the area and I'd go tend to myself to help me relax. I'd just do something small to make myself feel better.
For example, "I'm sorry but I can't handle this right now, I'm feeling really annoyed." Then I'd leave the area, take a shower, go for a walk, read a book - ANYTHING to get my mind off of him and whatever was bothering me (while keeping in mind that "It's no big deal.") Once I felt better I would come back around and treat him as if nothing had happened, all is well. Talk to him as normal, joke with him, hugs and kisses - all of that. If he apologizes to me whenever I come back around, I simply accept it and brush it off like it was "no big deal". "Oh yeah, that's okay, don't worry about it."
She handles this in a way that defuses the situation and keeps the love alive. I am willing to bet that most people would allow themselves (and again, it is completely understandable) to react angrily, get into a fight, etc. Which unfortunately only makes things worse and perpetuates the negative or "shaming" behavior.
Now I am not saying for a minute that people "should" remain in an abusive relationship. If someone is hitting you or putting you at risk in other ways, then I think it is time to get the hell out of there. It is up to each of us to decide whether a relationship is worth staying in and working on. But if we decide it isn't, then we have to ask ourselves why we stay.
Delphine
Acceptance is the doorway and the key.
The other side of the coin....
I've never wanted to shame my wife; or add to the shame she was carrying around when I meet her....But, there isn't any doubt I made it worse by placing expectations on her to be productive in the simple (what I deemed) little things that must happen (or I thought) daily when you're in a marriage, raising children, working a public job, and or home owners....
I've never wanted to offend my wife or anyone on this forum; but, the reason I may have at times is because I realized quiet a while back that I needed to go through an emptying out process or as Melissa stated it a RESET....It was and is difficult for me to change my-self....I was very easily sucked into the Parent/Child dynamic early on....I was an easy mark as they say, based on my child hood and my first marriage of 30 years....And it's been very difficult to say the least to move away from it....
In reality; my wife admires me to the point of jealousy and I am quiet capable (survivalist and energetic nature) at most anything I set out to do...But the iron man also needs loved, he needs appreciation. Yep, us NON's could use some understanding also from time to time...I wish someone could have taken me by the hand in that first year of my marriage and spoken some wisdom to me concerning your 9 points Now....
The point you're making here reminds me somewhat of the u-tube video J posted about vulnerability and shame.....When the man stood in line to get his wife's book signed, and asked her if she had any material for husbands? And she said No, I've never studied men.....I will never forget his answer.....How convenient....
This forum has been a monster size support group for me; as you have Now!
C
Shame is a drag
I've recently noticed that my boyfriend still has deep shame that is effecting us and him, in his overall progress. Even though he has accepted the need for the three legs of treatment, and he is trying meds, changing diet, seeing a doctor, trying new structure ideas, and doing research, his nonacceptance to need more help than the average man, has caused many slow recoveries from setbacks. I want to put my foot down somehow by saying, "if you can't fully accept that this is just the way your brain works, and BE OK with it, you will constantly be dragged down, and any step forward will feel like a mountain. I'm tired of walking through the tunnel of acceptance waiting for you to climb over the mountain of shame. I will move on and be miles ahead unless you choose the tunnel with me." In other words, it's an ultimatum. Not loving himself the way he is, is reason for me to leave. Sounds harsh, but I refuse to love that part of him, because it doesn't belong there. I'm not in that place (the place to leave), but I want to tell him this as a way to stimulate him, as we know high potency stimulants usually are needed, but I don't know how without him actually only hearing "I'm leaving you" and missing the point altogether. If anyone with ADHD reads this, could you help me analyze this thought?
Shame Is A Relationship Killer
Hi Vanessalex,
I'm your man here (with ADHD)..and I think I might have something to offer you that might help?
What you said here in quotes "if you can't fully accept that this is just the way your brain works, and BE OK with it, you will constantly be dragged down, and any step forward will feel like a mountain. I'm tired of walking through the tunnel of acceptance waiting for you to climb over the mountain of shame. I will move on and be miles ahead unless you choose the tunnel with me."
Asking you honestly....who's being dragged down here...you or him? If you can accept that he has shame (which is really a common thing with ADHD)..then he's already down. Using your metaphoric "tunnel"...he's probably more aware and self conscious of his shame than you are. His shame...is not your shame..so what tunnel are you talking about your's or his. As I read this...he's got his shame and tunnel of acceptance...and you've got your's.
As you described this, you mentioned the 3 legs of treatment. In respect to this....this is his treatment not yours and you can't do anything there but encourage him to follow through. But you really have no part of this and nothing in that has anything to do with you? (directly) Saying....it's his ADHD, his treatment and his responsibility to do this for himself. I understand your wishing he would, and needing him to so you don't have to deal with these problems it creates for you and this would surely lesson your load and all so indirectly speaking, these things do have an effect on you.
But shame is not really part of the 3 legs or directly a symptom of ADHD itself. It is a by product of having ADHD and I can attest to that myself. There is a lot of shame in not being able to function or full fill your obligations to others as you would like it to be. But what is...is what is. You can only do so much to work around the symptoms but the source behind why they're there will never go away. The medication will only work on the direct symptoms themselves....it will do nothing for the behavioral aspects at all and shame is one of them. Medication will do nothing for shame what so ever and will not help there at all.
If you think about why shame exists....it always has to do with other people. If you were alone and never were in contact with another human being then shame wouldn't exist right? That kind of puts the ball in your court as I'm seeing this but I don't want you to feel like I'm trying to put this all on you because I'm not.
I've just gone through a process of discovery with this same issue your having but now with my non-ADHD wife. Her shame and fear if causing a lot of issues between the two of us and since shame is not on the ADHD list of symptoms....this is a universal phenomenon and it appears in everyone equally but for different reasons.
I'll tell you exactly what I have arrived at as a cure for shame with my wife. Building her up...instead of tearing her down. Doing everything I can do to affirm her and reaffirm her, support her, reminding her of all the good qualities she has and showing her how good she is at doing things that I'm not as good at doing compared to her. And telling her directly how much better she is at doing all those things compared to me and admitting that I can't hold a candle to her in the things that she is better at me in doing. I'm not putting myself down by doing that....I'm just being honest. She is better at doing many things than I am but the problem is...she doesn't believe it herself. Getting her to believe how good she is...not how bad she is...is exactly how to get rid of that shame because that shame is all about how she feels about herself and I can either make it worse...or make it better for her by doing exactly those things to correct this and reduce her shame she feels when she's with me. Anything I do to make her feel ashamed....is exactly what I shouldn't be doing.
The problem with shame is.....that person thinks their less than they are. Less good. Less talented. Less capable...Less of everything when in reality....this is not true. In reality....they are better than they think they are and that's the real problem right there. That's the source of the problem with shame.
Things not to do include:
Don't nag or bring attention to when he fails but encourage instead and remind when ever possible. Reminding is not nagging if done properly. Don't point out defects. Don't criticize ever. Don't put down ever. Don't complain ever. And in general...don't be negative period.
And don't make a habit of showing them how poor they are at anything since they already know that. You could tell them 1,000 times how they failed at something and this will not be saying anything new or something they don't already know? All that will do....is create more shame on top of more shame and if you are doing any of these things....then it's you who needs to change or do something different in order to reduce the shame he feels with you. The ball is in your court 100%...if you don't want to deal with his shame anymore. You have total control here...but you need to not do anything that will create more shame by your actions and the things you do.
And again....shame is not a symptom of ADHD by itself but it goes with the territory...so encouraging and supporting and having his back is exactly what you need to do. That part is totally up to you.
And so you don't think I don't understand since I'm the one with ADHD? I don't find my wife's shame acceptable either since I see her shame as the the thing that will kill our relationship. As I see it...if that's true (which I agree with you)...then I need to do anything I can to help and do everything I can, not to increase my wife's shame at all costs. I'm with you there and feel the same way about it.
J
PS Being "ashamed" of someone else that's not you, is another thing entirely. If this is what your doing, then that's all on you.
J, shame causing shame in spouse
J, I have to add something here. A LOT get said about the ADHD person having ShAME and the "non" spouse needing to be careful not to upset that. I need to add another component here, and questions.
What about the ADHD person who has inner SHAME, but not wanting it to ever get addressed, but he in turn generates shameful feelings in their non spouse? Otherwise, i.e......."I don't want to talk about my shame, but YOU should feel shame for saying anything TO me about this, and feel shame because YOU should have known better." Statements like this that have been said to me and others I've read about. Also there is ShAME in those of us like me who have done all we can but still feel like we didint do enough or should have done more. Do any of them realize they are making others feel shame as well? I understand you can't MAKE anyone feel anything. But then if you take statement further, then ADHD folks can't say someone made them feel shame either. wondering about this.
I experienced shame by my ADD spouse's actions
I often cannot go out into my own backyard as neighbors or guests in the neighbors' yard will make loud comments about the sloppy condition of our yard. I personally have picked up the yard time and time again after my ADD spouse. Have even got nasty emails from a neighbor complaining directly to me. But if my spouse is out in yard or happens to run into these people nothing gets said. Many times I bear the brunt of the comments. My spouse just dismisses my frustration and refuses to acknowledge my feelings. It is as if it is easier for him to dismiss me rather than pick up the yard or not make the mess in the first place. Past motivators for him to suddenly clean up the yard have been when we were trying to refinance our mortgage or when a competing work colleague was in a neighbor's yard doing work and could see our yard. But once these passed, again messy yard. By mess, I mean trash barrels strewn about after a dump run, work materials & supplies left out, yard tools left out etc. I have tried to ignore but cannot even go out to work in my garden without something hurtful being said. The sound amplifies very loudly from neighbors yards. I have confronted 3 different neighbors- one was apologetic while the other just ran from me & got in his car & left while another just continued to barrage me face to face and later with more insulting emails- which I blocked. Spouse is aware of all this and yet still denies my feelings. Attempts to work on this in counseling have been met with uncomfortable silence which got nowhere. I think it is worse when you live in a small town community-- and I have even been told that I need to get used to living in a small town. Has anyone else had to experience this? I welcome some validation and support.
Eyekalo, messy yard
Boy, oh boy do I know THIS ONE. My ADHD husband messes up our yard so bad, our neighbors complain also. I kept the yard up best I could, and did all the heavy nitty gritty work with trimming the trees, planting flowers, constantly picking up pinecones, sticks, etc., and much more. He would "mow the lawn", by driving the riding lawn mower very fast around the yard, and only do half or part of the yard. At times he would do the whole thing, but not often, and the yard ALWAYS looked like he did CROP CIRCLES in the grass. It never looked even and mowed correctly. He just wanted to "get it done". ( his favorite phrase) Trouble was, the yard was NEVER. done. He would yell at us about not doing it right, but NEVER did it right either.
He left all kinds of trash things, tools, equipment, odds and ends, BIG things, inthe yard, but we couldnt leave anything, or else he didnt like it. It was always "Do as I SAY, not as I DO.".
This is common behavior, and most do it, and I couldnt take it any longer. I left 6 months ago, after 33 years, because I didnt want the confusion anymore. I am drained body, mind and soul. He'sbeen treating me better since I left than he EVER did when I was with him. What is THAT about?
Dedelight4- messy yard - messy everything..
Wow- I can identify with what you say-- "just want to get it done"- if I could do needlepoint I would make a banner with that phrase. Maybe that is the true origin of crop circles-- aliens with ADHD/ADD begrudgingly doing their lawn chores. Have also been amazed at the irony of me putting a recently scrubbed empty dog crate to dry off to the side of the yard-out of sight-but having my spouse freak out that it is out there. I often wonder if he needs different glasses. Or where I could get a pair so I could avoid without regret. He doesn't say the 'Do as I say, not as I do' phrase but it could be his motto. I give you a gold medal for courage for leaving-- I have no family/friends support, no financial support and counseling is helpful but expensive and a real inconvenience to get to on a weekly basis. Yeah - Iknow all my excuses. What finally did it for you? I just don't want to be so alone. Yeah- I know I am alone now. Well maybe 75% alone. It is the 25% that keeps me in this relationship. I really am glad I found this sight as it is an oasis for me. To just be validated and have my spouse's crazy making behavior acknowledged is such a salvo. Please others out there tell me how you are coping- I need to know I am not alone!!
Yes....eyekahlo....
I don't know why this happens...I don't know if it's a symptom of add/adhd or something else...The way I've viewed it....This type person hates any space that is clean and organized...It seems to haunt them!....It's like they have to mark or take over every room, every counter, every table, every drawer, every shelf, every porch, every shop or storage building with their signature of messiness and hoarding....
It seems to me like it hurts their feelings to even put garbage in the can at times....I don't understand it at all, but it is totally real....When you have a spouse like this you have to set down and set up boundaries, because it becomes their mission to take over every clean organized space and junk it....
C
J- I still don't get it
three legs
clipped from Melissa's three legs article
https://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/three-legged-stool-adhd-treatment
Leg 1: Making physical changes to your body. ADHD is the result of specific physical features in your body, including lower than normal levels of dopamine. These can be effectively addressed at the root cause (physical) level. Examples of leg 1 treatments include: medication, aerobic exercise, fish oil, better sleep and nutrition.
Leg 2: Making behavioral (habit) changes. Physical differences manifest themselves as symptoms and behaviors. Coping strategies such as retreat and denial that have been developed over the years without the benefit of physical changes are sub-optimal and often self-defeating within a committed relationship. So moving away from destructive coping strategies to creating “external structures” to support the ADHD partner is essential to improving your relationship. Examples of simple habit changes that can make a big difference include: lists and systems; alarms and reminders; anger management; separating bank accounts; hiring help; learning to not interrupt, etc. Cognitive behavioral therapy, so much in the news lately as a good treatment for ADHD, falls into leg 2 treatments.
Leg 3: Developing strategies to use when interacting with your spouse. These include communication strategies and creating a hierarchy of issues to attack. You can’t do it all at once, so picking the most meaningful symptoms and habits to address is an important step. A couple might decide to: designate a time to work together to plan household tasks for the week; develop verbal cues to stop escalation of disagreements; or schedule time to be together to overcome distraction.
End of clip
I think if you look at leg two logistics and leg three . I don't see anything here to suggest that the nons just roll over and give up. I see suggestions like joint planning and agreements. How do we get to the place of willingness on both sides to sit down together? From the land of De Nile.. this is what some of us are still working on! However, my position, right on the banks of the river is that it has been necessary for me to step away from all the arguments just to get peace of mind and reclaim my own personhood.
And less arguments has in our house meant that balls are dropping. However, some have been picked up by my husband. Not all. Still, I call it progress.
I'm Sorry I Missed Your Question .....Eyekahalo
If I could answer this for you in what I know....it still wouldn't make any sense to you? Instead of trying to explain something that you can't know (so why even try? ) I can speak about myself in the past....and then in the present...and make a comparison? Think of it like an Algebra equation. ( don't lose me here....I know this is getting abstract ) But in terms of me and my past...I see it has past being negative...and now being positive...and the answer is subtracting the negative from the positive and getting your answer? The answer...is the piece of the puzzle that you can't see which is why it doesn't seem to make sense?
And the same applies to your H here. Something is missing that he can't see...so you are still trying to apply the last 35 years of not having that piece of the puzzle that is vital to completing the picture in order to see it? And the same goes for him?
So what gives me such powers to see and why I'm saying "I get it" ...."I see it"...and you or your husband don't? (possibly?)
Experience. I was....in denial. I DID do all these things and behave in many of these ways no infidelity though...I drew the line for myself and just live in depravation instead. I'm really good at living in deprivation and that was nothing new? In fact...my experience of my entire life up to the point of leaving that place for the one where I am now?
That experience of living in deprivation...seemed normal to me? In fact....I didn't know anything but....living this way? When I was still in denial...and all those self protective defense mechanisms working to "shield me" from this knowledge....what was normal....was NOT normal. What felt right.....was actually wrong. What felt wrong....actually was right....but I didn't know that. I had nothing to compare it too? This is what being in denial is all about so if your H is still in the same place he's been his entire life....he has nothing to compare to? He wouldn't know :"right"....if it jumped up and bit him on the nose because he can't recognize....something he's never had? You can't prove a negative. You can't "miss something" you've never had or even know exists?
It's like when someone says....."Oh ...you don't have children? You don't know what you are missing?" This is "fact" as you were saying it here? My answer is yes....I don't know what I'm missing....I guess? How can I know what I am missing.....if I never had children? The only way to know that....is to have them right? I experience no "Loss"...because to experience "Loss"....you'd have to have children first and that experience...to then have lost it right? I can imagine...if you stopped and thought about....losing your childeren....you would not only suffer from this loss....but part of your life would go missing and not exist anymore? It would be a terrible loss and it would be devastating to you...so from that place....you might say to me....." You don't know what you are missing? And you would say that to me....from this place of having that...being part of your life right?"
I don't have children. I don't experience or feel "loss" or any pain from this? My life is what it is as I have experienced it without children and it's been full and all the wonderful times and all the money and opportunity that I had....since I didn;'t have childeren in the first place? I filled my alternative Universe of not having childeren with many things both good and bad...but it was full of life and full of experience and children and everything that goes with them....does not exist in my Universe? I can't miss...or feel loss...of what I never had but at the same time....I had something else....and all that goes with it? You can only see this from your Universe in terms of "what would be if"...and I can only see this as "imagining what it might be like if I had done with children in it...but saying....I;m perfectly happy NOT having children....because I don't miss what I didn't have but I certainly had something in it's place that was equally full filling and I'm perfectly happy with the alternative? The "fact"...that I don't know what I am missing......is pretty irrelevant to me since I don;t feel "loss" or anything bad because of it...and mostly at this point....and very happy I didn't and wouldn't want any even if I could? I'm way too old now anyway...which is just another reason why I'm just fine with it. No problem? I don't "pine", "regret" or feel bad at all..and this is very much like I'm saying...but in this case....what you don't know having ADHD....really IS......you don't know what you are missing for real in all good ways....because the ways you think are good....are not so good but you don;t know that until you get there?
Imagine it this way if you can.....there are two separate planes or alternative Universes of the mind here and that exist parallel to one another and you exist in one....and your H exists in another but neither one of you realize this. (the missing piece of the puzzle perhaps ) You're thinking, apply and reasoning on one place of reality....and he's doing the same thing on his plane and both planes occupy the same space together....but you don't know this and even if you do.....it's invisible and you can't see it?
Nothing you do, say, try, or do differently in your mind...works...but that's because you don't know what your H knows...and vise versa but there is no way of knowing.....unless you were able to find the worm hole in the fabric of space to move from one plane of reality...into the other one so you are both on the same plane together. In the case of a person with ADHD who's in denial......they think....they are on the same plane as you just like you think....they are on the same plane as them but your not. There is no worm hole going the other direction because you can't suddenly get.....ADHD and then get that perspective ever?
So that means....the person with ADHD...has to find that worm hole...and go through a transformation in the process and come out the other side in your plane along with you.
NOW.....you can apply everything here...and it will work just like everyone says? Only then will it work....but until a person with ADHD who only knows...what they know....and believes they exist in their thinking....in the same place as everyone else....they've got another thing coming...and it only comes by going through the transformation? And if they don't...it won't work and it why everything you tried doesn't work and that's the reason why?
Not only did I go through that transformation and move to the other side.....I'm now facing a wife who has ADHD and this becomes even more apparent to me. Like icing on the cake? Not only can I see things more clearly than before....I'm on the other side of this in the same plane you are...and facing someone with ADHD who is still in denial?
I was on the other side....and know I'm not. I have both experiences...and I can do the math now. It's simple equation of subtraction and then getting the answer....but if you've only got you (X)....but you can't have (Y)....you can't solve the equation of: You - ( ) = ?. 'Which is right were you are?
With me.....I'm X ( now ) - Y (then in denial) = Knowing from experience. You can't know until you get there...but you can't get there until you know? The peice that is missing...is finding the worm hole and going through the transformation and reaching the other side.....( or the far shore )
Or you could say....you can't get there from here but that's not very useful to you? What might be more useful would be for me to say....I'm already here...and that's why everything that is suggested works. It's because I can see it....because that piece of the puzzle that was missing....is now in place and I can see the entire picture clearly. It doesn't make my ADHD go away....but I have "knowing" and the knowledge I gained from the experience of going "through it." ( to the other side ) Call it what you will......transformation, rebirth, revelation, awakening, the fruit of knowledge what have you? Until that happens and a person with ADHD wakes up from the "dream of denial"....they are half asleep but still awake and that's why it doesn't work?
With that awakening comes the knowledge. And with the knowledge....comes "knowing". And once you know....then you become "aware" and can now "see."
J
How does this help on a practical level?
I'm new to this page and have read the shame triggers. It really seems as though the only way for the non-ADHD spouse to manage this is to walk on eggshells and continue to pick up after your partner. Take for example "Using ‘facts’ to delineate under-performance. Non-ADHD partners often think about sharing ‘facts’ about situations as ‘straight-forward’ or (sometimes) helpful. “You didn’t do the dishes this morning” is, indeed a fact…but it is not news. ADHD partners hear these facts as another critique of something they did wrong and yet another signal of inadequacy." - I don't see how else to handle this sort of situation except to just assume all responsibility for anything not done by my ADHD partner if I cannot address things with him as they may trigger shame and inadequacy.
Sorry if I seem insensitive. My partner's diagnosis is recent and I feel as though I am in a position where I have to constantly "let it go" for fear of promoting aggression and arguments...to me this doesn't seem like a tangible solution in a way that is going to help me.
Hi Evie_K...welcome!
( It really seems as though the only way for the non-ADHD spouse to manage this is to walk on eggshells and continue to pick up after your partner. )
You will need boundaries....You matter; and you must stand your ground. Never start or get into an argument over things that are unacceptable to you...You can tell your spouse this isn't acceptable to me, mean it, and walk off. If he doesn't respect you enough to set down and be aware of your feelings, hear you w/o aggressive behavior, you should get a counselor involved...
If you start the eggshell routine; you will pay for it with much long term misery, in my opinion...We don't sign up to carry another adult....You've got to be ready to deal out tough love, no matter what you have to do to make your partner understand....
You also can't allow anger to drive you, and do more harm than good...If a person's mind is prompting actions that they defend; but to you or unacceptable you have to show them. There are things that you both must accept and then there are things that or not negotiable!....
Most conversations between spouses where your difference's are so profound; and where one person's life is intrusive on the other, it can be almost impossible to discuss it...Usually things like a victim mind or denial and blame follow intrusive living...
Attempted conversations with this type mind most always turns competitive and becomes a pissing contest...You absolutely can't allow yourself to get into this....It will never solve anything, and the irresponsible person knows it, and loves it....They have you the moment they can anger you, because when they can manipulate you into anger then they can blame you; you take them off the hook...When you tell them it's unacceptable, walk away, then you have their attention....But you must stick to it, and never allow them to drag you into unhealthy conversation of excuse making or empty promises over and over....Just remember; Irresponsible people or Professionals at defending it....
C
Internal Boundaries: The Shame of Being a Fool ....C
I was thinking about this again as you were saying this and what popped into my head suddenly was remembering an interview I was watching....of Julia Louis- Dreyfus ( Elaine on the show "Seinfeld" )..and I will always remember something she said. As she was speaking about this...you have to keep in mind something here that is really important that you found out in this Biographical interview of where she came from? The only real pertinent details that I remember is that she was born into an affluent family and she had many opportunities in her life from this? In essence....she could do almost anything she wanted and probably didn't have to work for a living to support herself and that would have been just fine if that were the case? No one would have judged her and she would not have a case to feel any shame for doing this?
But as the interview continued...she made this very poignant statement about what it was that she found as the "secret to success" in what she did as her chosen career path. To quote her as closely as I remember...she said " In order to succeed as a comedian...you have to be willing to make a complete fool of yourself in front of everyone to the point that you are willing to lower yourself to that level and expose yourself to being of playing the part of a complete "FOOL" with everything you've got and with everyone there watching you do this as witness to this and still feel good about yourself." As she said this she said " and if you can't do this....you will never make it as a comedian because this is the secret in succeeding in this career and you need to do it with everything you've got."
This thread is about shame. External boundaries as in....physical boundaries...have nothing to do with shame when the only shame that is pertinent here is your own.
I highlighted that last statement to make a point and a very important point if you aren't seeing this yet? You CAN'T FEEL....another persons shame can you? You can only be....."Ashamed" of another person when it comes to them? If you feel embarrassment ( FOR THEM...when you see another person acting the "Fool".....you are in essence.....passing off your own shame...."of them" onto them by expressing this or feeling it in the first place? If you feel uncomfortable yourself...when someone acts the "fool"....this is not their shame in question here....it's your shame that's in question here and with that comes your internal boundaries of shame and vulnerability and the fear of looking like a fool yourself. That's what this is all about. Your own fear of "looking bad"...and that says more about you...than it does the other person or anyone else?
If you're afraid of getting up on stage and acting the fool with everything you got..and your not committed to being the "fool"...like Julia Louis-Dryfus said in her comment....the you can't succeed in anything no matter what is or what your goal is in doing something? Total "Commitment" without "Fear"...is the key to success and not being afraid or afraid of becoming vulnerable for what ever reason...is all on you if this is YOUR problem....not anyone else's?
Something that Eyekahlo said really resonated with me about this and I wanted to go back and revisiting what she said because this is the "moment of truth here" she had.....and everything that has to do with shame, boundaries and personal responsibility is contained into what she said right in this one passage. The answers to the questions as to the "what's the problem here".....not "who's the problem".
WHAT.....IS THE PROBLEM HERE? NOT WHO? All problems you have personally...are personal? As Mitch Heldberg so astutely pointed out....."A guy showed me a picture of himself when he was younger....and I told him "EVERY PICTURE"of you...is when you were younger?" Case in point?
"So it is a very bitter & painful thing to have it come down to either - leave after all this time and start over at 62 OR stay and put up with it. My ADD spouse has a good heart and is a genuinely likable person who comes homes with flowers, or brings special dinners or buys gifts. And yes this is all very nice but means nothing when the finances have gone to hell, the yard looks like the home depot reject pile, junky but operable cars clog the driveway, obligations are never met, and sporadic attempts are made to fix the house-- at some point it becomes painfully obvious-- the natural reaction or consequence is to say hey WTF? And if that is criticizing- so be it. I mean so you are saying that the ADD spouse just gets to continue the crXX and shame on me the non spouse for meeting him, marrying him, raising his kids, picking up after him, being supportive thru all the crazy business ventures, the wasted monies on unneeded stuff, the wasted time that we could have had having fun, the infidelities, the attempts at marriage counseling-- then I truly just don't get it. I cannot go back in time. Hindsight is 20-20. I guess I should log out and just go pack my bag."
Everything I've ever said in terms of being a victim is contained and reduced down to this very thing right here. And Everything ....that my T has ever said in terms of what being "A Victim" is also contained right here within the definition of "WHAT"...a Victim truly is? Getting right down to the core of what "IT" is...to be a "Victim". As said " A person...who refuses to take personal responsibility....."
"IT'S"....all contained within this one statement.
Let me dissect this so everyone can see what I'm trying to say here?
"So it is a very bitter & painful thing to have it come down to ..........." What is so bitter and painful here? (the what question again? )
"either - leave after all this time and start over at 62 OR stay and put up with it. " What is "IT" here? ( the what question again? ) And if you answer the "WHAT?"....you can move on into the conclusion she has arrived at in her mind over this? Put up with or tolerate "WHAT?". And "WHAT" is really having to come down to here? Down to "WHAT" level of shame or vulnerability I might ask? Moving on here.....
"My ADD spouse has a good heart and is a genuinely likable person......." I haven't spent any time here on this forum...saying or giving reasons as to why I Love my wife and what I Love about her MOST of ALL. As I've referred to this in the past paraphrasing myself as saying "what is most valuable to me...is the thing I see past all her faults and failures and what is most important of all. "A good heart...and is genuinely likeable" Cutting right through all the red tape here.....this is what I am in Love with.....and what I Love MOST...in my wife? This is what she possess....that I want from her and nothing else. This is everything I need and I have no need for her to "DO ANYTHING"....but give this to me. I need "nothing"....in terms of any tangible "item or gift" she could give me since those things are superfluous if this is missing in another person I'm with. Superfluous, meaningless, valueless, supercilious and superficial.
".who comes homes with flowers, or brings special dinners or buys gifts." Again...so "WHAT?" Meaningless and of NO value to me. Like "0". It's "NICE"...but that just proves or reinforces what is already there as in......"being a nice person who is genuinely "nice"and has a good heart." This I already know or my wife....and she already possess this quality that I find the most valuable thing of all. I don't need her to prove this to me....but it is "NICE"...on occasion but I don;'t need it and can totally live fine without it? It's not a NEED...in other words......but it's a gift when I get it and I am always thankful and appreciative every time my wife gives me this gift and I feel this gift she has and that being passed onto to me?
And yes this is all very nice....... Nice again. I remember the moment I was so enraged with my own mother when I was speaking from my heart and telling her my truth...and she stopped me and said....."BE NICE....." as if NICE....is the Ultimate goal in life and I was breaking some Cardinal rule by not being "NICE"...that very moment and standing up for what I believed in that she just simply didn't agree with. And the anger and outrage I felt in that moment....translated to me pulling the refrigerator door right off the hinges and me standing there with fridge door handle and door in my hand and my mother looking at me in amazement and shock? ( and my father hearing this and comes in...looks at the door in my hand and says....."I hope you can fix that...because I'm not buying a new one" "you'll have to answer to the Coca Cola company" LOL )
And I would have said in the past in response...."Fuck the door....there's more important things here going on that no one seems to be seeing? Being NICE...and worrying about the Fucking refrigerator door...is the least thing on my mind right now. FUCK IT!! And FUCK YOU for saying so?" That would be me....in the past at age 21 years old...saying that but not what I say now?
"......but means nothing when the finances have gone to hell" Hindsight is 20/20. Going right back to the truth of the matter... what did you do to prevent this from happening? It's your finances too? Did you do everything within your power to prevent this from happening? Using what you know now and had to go back and do it all over again....would you do what you did back then...or would you do something different now that you know this?
So the question still remains unanswered? "What".... is having to come down here? That is.....to equate this "THING" to being bitter and painful? "WHAT" "THING"...is she talking about? Her regret? Or is it "her own shame" for not preventing this from happening in doing all the things she did...but not doing the right thing at the time? You can;t have it both ways. No playing both side of the fence here. Either you take full personal responsibility for everything in your own life that you don't like....or you remain a victim who refuses to take full responsibility for you actions...or lack of them? Lack of them...is what is most important here? Not knowing any better...just makes you ignorant and fool....so what crime has been committed here and who's responsible for that?
"the yard looks like the home depot reject pile, junky but operable cars clog the driveway, obligations are never met, and sporadic attempts are made to fix the house"
Here's where I get to speak up and say something? Why...is this, her husbands responsibility? She lives there the same as he does? Why did she let this go for so long? As she said this......But I am really confused. I have spent 35 years of my married 40 years being so supportive and non critical . Nothing wrong with this...but that's just one role and one part in taking full responsibility here? For 35 years....what did she do to.....;'fix the house" for example? Why is that his responsibility soley? That's not his job only....and nothing is preventing anyone from rolling their shirts leaves up...getting on a ladder and getting on the roof and pulling the old bad shingles off and putting new ones on where theres a leak? No one is born with this ability and everyone who learns to do this...learns from doing it? If you never got the ladder out...climbed on the roof and fixed the the leaky roof yourself...or even made an attempt to do it. Who failure is that is you don't know how....are afraid of heights and afraid of working on the roof or have no interest in learning how? That's not my problem for example ...if my wife in so inept and afraid? There a plenty of woman who can do this...so you can't use that as an excuse? Someone...no matter what....has to do this and if you can';t do it or are too afraid then what or who is the problem here? Being afraid....and saying you can't...or that...."you don't want to"...for what ever reason there is in your failure of doing this....is not anyone else's problem and is not anyone reasonability? If my wife is too afraid and is inept and has a fear of heights...does not make this my responsibility if she lives in the same house with me? If all she does is support me...in "MY EFFORT"...that doesn't do anything about the leaky roof and shingle repair does it? Nothing for nothing means nothing here? So "what's" the problem?
-- at some point it becomes painfully obvious-- the natural reaction or consequence is to say hey WTF?
Exactly my point...what the Fuck is my wife's problem? She won't fix th car. She won't get on the roof and fix the shingles? She won't do the electrical wiring, the plumbing, the widows? She won't till the grass and re-seed it and she won't lift a finger to help me....(not support me ....but do the frick'in work? Support..does nothing...to help me do anything here? What I need is help "doing the work"...and someone to roll their shirt leaves up and climb down into the sewer hole with me and run the snake down the sewer line? And then when she's done there...she can climb on the skid loader and move the load of gravel in the driveway and then spread it out on the access road and fill in the pot holes. And then when she's done there...she can get the crow bar and dismantle what is left of the the fence that is rotted out..and then after she's done with that..she can re-dig the fence posts and then rebuild the entire fence that still left to do. And when she;s done with that..she can move and lift all the really heavy lifting of boxes..and climb up the skinny attic ladder into the attic with 100 lbs of things in it at the same time.....and then move all the crap that up there and down to the garbage after going through it all and throw it away? And we still need to have another load taken to the dump of things that I didn't do of left in my yard when it was my house was rented ( that I didn't put there...but she wants gone ) .
In every single one of these things that my wife wants as well as I do....she's done nothing, contributed nothing and has not lifted a finger to help me even though she lives in the same house I do but only gives lame ass excuses about her incompetence and her ineptness and fear as her excuse. Or just not wanting to learn how? I wasn't born knowing how to do electrical wiring, plumbing, or driving a skid loader? No one taught me how to do this...I taught myself and learned how so I could do in the first place? And if I couldn't do it...I hired someone to do it? How else will it get done? Someone has to do it..and since my wife is afraid, inept, incompetent and unwilling....I have to do it if I want it to get done? She absolutely refuses to help me do this...and she refuses to learn or even try? Any reason or excuse she could name here...is her just making excuses and not wanting to learn how so she can do it herself and help me with 1/2 the work?
In the same token....I'm expected to do 1/2 the share of the laundry, the cooking, the cleaning and the pickup the house..inside the house which I do without question...even when I fail in my attempts sometimes? But at least I'm trying..and making the attempts and I'm doing something about it while my wife sits and complains that it's not getting done when she could get up off her sorry ass....climb up on the roof....tie herself off with a harness and start shucking shingles and then get the roofing gun, hook it up the compressor and drag ass back up the ladder with 150 lbs bail of shingle at the same time while standing side ways all bent over at 30 degree pitch with your toes crammed into her work boots and start helping for a change? She doesn't need me to do this. I learned and taught myself..so can she? No excuses. No lame ass fear of heights and fear of falling and fear of getting hurt and fear on top of more fear. Get your ass up..and get moving and help do it...not stand on the ground with a glass of lemonade and sit there and watch like a spectator? I don;'t do that with her in all the things inside the house....so what kind of lame ass excuse is that I might ask? Its lame.....that's what? ( turkey's butt )
And my point? ( and no...it's not the one on top of my head? LOL )
When it comes to personal responsibility. There is a case to be made to what you are doing to contribute? There is also a case to be made...and much more importantly.....what you didn't do to contribute? What you didn't do....has everything to do with hind sight and the past? And if what ever....."YOU DIDN'T DO"....WHICH ALLOWED THESE THINGS TO COME TO PASS.......who's responsible if you find yourself in a place you don't like right now? Right now....this very minute...when you are feeling bitter which has to come down to what here?
Shame....that's what! Your own Shame....in your own failure...to do anything about it so it wouldn't happen in the first place? If you were tricked or fooled into believing something that isn't true? Who's fault is that? The trickster....or the fool who believes them?
In Brene Brown's talk ( on TEDX Talks )...that Delphine was gracious enough to include here at the beginning of this thread on shame, she describes this extremely well and sights excellent insight to why these things happen?
And in this talk at the beginning she relates the most important aspect of this at minute 4;30...she poses a question to the audience..and then makes a statement in what she truly believes.
As she said it...."Vulnerability is not weakness...I define vulnerability as emotional risk, exposure, uncertainty..and it fuels are daily lives.....and I have come to the belief........that vulnerability...is our most accurate means to gage courage....." and then goes on to tell you in what ways she thinks this is lacking or the places in where this comes into play?
Lack of courage...that's the what here? Fear of Shame and looking bad to others. Not doing anything out of fear and fear alone...is no excuse by the letter of the law. What is weak is within the fear. It's the fear of being afraid ...and doing nothing...that is your failure..is this is what you're not doing and the reason why I think?
Going back to my example of my wife...being of no help and totally worthless to me in helping fix the roof. She is worthless...only because she won't climb the ladder and get on the roof in the first place out of fear. It's the fear and being afraid that makes her worthless to me...and being worthless because of fear and nothing else as the reason why? She is perfectly capable of climbing a God Damned ladder. Give me a break. A first grader knows how to climb a ladder and you don't need any instruction book to do this. I would expect...a first grader could do this...without too much intrusion in the "how to" department so the "how to" department is not the reason my wife refuses to climb a ladder, get up on the roof, tie here slelf off and hook her self up to a harness..and then start shucking shingles with me and helping me instead of supporting me with a glass of lemonade on the ground standing there giving commentary. I'm not afraid of this and I do it without question. I do it because it needs to done...and my fears and worrying about making a fool of myself has little or nothing to do with it? At the end of the day...someone;s got to do it...and if my wife refuses out of her own insecurities, ineptness', incompetence and fear.....that's all on her and I have nothing to be ashamed of? She's not doing anything to help or contributing here....except complaining about it not getting done....but does nothing to help me. As far as getting the roof repaired or doing anything about it...she is weak...and worthless...and contributes nothing but her own shame into this..and the failure in seeing her part and what she is NOT only contributing into this....but also, her failure in helping me with doing things she wants instead of going out and getting it for herself...the same as I do.
I fight my own fights. I get my own needs met. I stand on my own two feet. When I want something...I go after and it... find it... or learn how to do it. I don't call for anyone to help me do what I'm responsible for...but at the same time...I don;'t take in what I'm not responsible for and this is exactly to the point here. I don't expect anyone to defer their shame onto me and accuse me of failure...when they are still standing on the ground and looking up at me while I'm doing the work...and complaining that it's not getting done when they do nothing to help and contribute in respect to what they want...how they want it...and when they want it....if they aren't willing to do it for themselves in the first place?
But in respect to this...there is a matter of respect involved here? I could give a Rat's ASS Flying Fuck....what my neighbors think of me if my house outside is not looking....up to their standards. They can go piss up a rope if they choose and that would not effect me one tiny bit of how I see myself and my own self esteem or self respect. Those things are not contingent...on anyone else and if they don't like it.....tough! I do not work for others people approval or to get what aI already own. I don't need that from anyone because I take care of myself in that department and any opinion about that from others is well....just an opinion which we all now what opinions are like and worth don't we?
But that's entirely speaking for myself and only me here....my wife has got this female shame thing going on..that I don;t have. In respect to what I don't have or own....I'm not going to take this on and I'm certainly not about to start peeing sitting down either? But in respect.,..for my wife...because I respect her and want to be mindful of this....I get up on the ladder and fix the roof..and not say a word otherwise. I do it...without needing to be asked...and I don't ask or expect my wife to climb the ladder with me and fix the roof because I respect...that she is afraid...and I respect her right to be afraid and be afraid of looking bad out of the same she might feel if someone saw her up there and looking foolish because of her own inadequacies and incompetence and all that fear that she carries around with her that I just don't have or own what so ever?
Because what she has that I valuse most important already...and she brings that to my life on daily basis...I dont need what I already own...and I'm not afraid of looking like a fool and having the fear of failure and being rejected. I could care less about those things...what is most important if the good heart and being a nice person inside....not what she does, or contributes outside in tangible objects, logistics of daily life, and things as in :"appearances". Appearances are anc can be deceiving.....what is inside is what is most important? If appearance is what is most important...then shame would be a big factor and what other people think of you are the cause for taking on shame...that doesn't belong to you.
You can only make yourself look like a fool....you can't be ashamed of someone else and think for a moment they are ashamed of themselves? The fool in this case...is the fool who believes this and that's really what this topic of shame is all about. Looking like a fool and what you do about it? I honestly believe that the answer to the question about shame is.....who's shame are we talking about? Your's or someone else's who is ashamed of you. What I say to that...is they can go piss up a rope. That not my shame here...that's there's to deal with if I have nothing to be ashamed of and don';t care what others think of me if I fail or look like a fool sometimes. Lack of courage and fear....is what I see as the most shameful thing of all and being a coward or a bully....is about as low as you can go. And most of all ...that is most important to me personally and within the things I place the highest value on from low to high and speaking for myself only. That's not my problem so I don't have to worry about that even if someone else thinks it is? If I'm going to commit to being a fool...then I need to get over myself and my shame...and give it all I've got.
https://youtu.be/HQu_NLRvULM
J
I disagree, Physical Boundaries has everything to do with it....
(This thread is about shame. External boundaries as in....physical boundaries...have nothing to do with shame when the only shame that is pertinent here is your own.)
Many physical boundaries aren't needed where Melissa's bullet point suggestions (avoid, accept, parent/child dynamics etc..) aren't the reality of the relationship.
Respected boundaries protect both individuals from passing along more shame...I don't think having boundaries has anything to do with personal feelings toward another person, nor is a boundary a judgment of another person....Boundaries are simple statements that say our difference's must be respected in this area of life....They protect both parties from unrealistic expectations which only breeds more conflict....
My Internal shame is telling me something about myself (If I'm attentive to myself) same as every other human being. There is huge difference in acting like a fool to get a laugh, and being one in life....I'm sure Red Skelton would have agreed....External Boundaries are always the product of what is going on Internally....
There are plenty of people on this forum, who states in their rants and comments that my spouse lives foolishly, defends it, and justifies it...."All a boundary does is says: it's your choice, it just want be happening at my expense"
A victim is a person who never accepts responsibility, nothing is ever their fault....They play the excuse and self pity cards (or aggression) to avoid being accountable to the responsibilities they've committed to in this life....
If a person really wants to avoid the shame they are feeling about themselves....Do something about it, no one else can help us with that.....
As for being ashamed of someone else for how they are living? Same answer, do something about it....Boundaries are good here!
Acceptance of reality!
Blessings
C
C....Physical Boundaries?
Like external boundaries ie: fences, walls, locks on doors, physical means of containments or prevention ( in the physical / external ) that force or impose control or your will onto others with no choice in the matter? I think you and I are saying the same thing from what you said.....
"Respected boundaries protect both individuals from passing along more shame...I don't think having boundaries has anything to do with personal feelings toward another person, nor is a boundary a judgment of another person....Boundaries are simple statements that say our difference's must be respected in this area of life....They protect both parties from unrealistic expectations which only breeds more conflict...."
Yes....respect, choice and protection. But all you can do is ask and state what these are? The other person has a choice and so do you?
But when simply attempting to set a boundary like this...and as a means of external control...the other person prevents this...refuses to discuss it or won't even hear of it...and that in itself becomes the issue? The that person is imposing (by force ) a means to block you or prevent you from setting a boundary...and that's what I mean by physical, external boundaries. Not by choice.;....but by means to control, manipulate and coheres in the physical in order to block you or prevent you from doing something ( in the physical )
These are external means to create and set boundaries of others by force not by choice. You've got to have boundaries in the first place to know what they are? But once you know what they are.....all you can do is ask and say them...out loud.
What might work to remind someone to do something...is put an electrified Tazzer Gun behind the cupboard door so if it's left open...they will get "Tazzered" each time they do that. That might work as an external boundary...;.but choice is taken away here...since you've decided to do this whether the other person likes it or not? In the essence of external boundaries....that's just a control method in the form of control and manipulation to accomplish what you want in having the other person "respect" your boundaries with a cost at their expense..in doing it that way?
In the same vane as I was attempting to say....who should be ashamed or feel shame here in this scenario? The person who left the door open...or the person who installed a Tazzer unit behind the door to stop them? That's a boundary all right...and an external one that there would be no denying? LOL
J
I apologize if I misinterpreted your post....I agree w/ what u r saying here (I think:)...If I ask for my physical boundaries to be respected to allow me to control or be disrespectful to right behaviors, and what is clearly my responsibilities to my spouse and our marriage, then I have got way more problems than carrying around unhealthy shame.
As a matter of fact anyone who would do this, has no shame!.....
I've got to quit trying to read your posts and watching college football at the same time....A man needs to know his limitations:)
Again I apologize....
C
No Apologies Needed .....C
You just got to the bottom line her of denail. It's defense mechanism to avoid the consequences of feeling shame? And when there is not shame....come shamful behavior and they don't see it or feel it...because??????? You got it!!! Bingo!!!
A person who refuses to take responsibility in this case...is a Victim because they are doing their best not to feel shame....and doing everything in their power to keep doing what they're doing by denying it's existence so there fore....NO SHAME!!! If they were a complete Narcissist that is?
But with someone like my wife who is not complete Narcissist...and is so full of so much shame (too much) she a victim to her shame and she is overwhelmed by it and then just shuts down and denies it or dismisses it.; "Nothing wrong here...."
I've used that to bring her to her own behavior before..because she told me the story of how she and her mother went into a councilor together to try and resolve some differences they were having? My wife...took her mother in to live with her when she was in need and after my wife's divorce..and this turned out to be a fiasco. Her mother was so difficult and problematic that she made her life miserable and so they went in together to see if they could find a solution?
All her mother did while she was there...was complain about everything my wife did wrong and what she was not doing for her? (sound familiar?)
But as my wife told the story....the councilor looked her mother and said.;..."Well....taking you in and giving you a place to live and making that offer in your time of need was a very generous thing to do on her part? She didn't need to do this and that was a very kind thing for her to do? It's sounds like the problem your having is not that ( my wife) was not doing anything for you?"
And as I recalled from what my wife said..her mother looked at the councilor like he was nuts and said "There's nothing wrong with what I did here....there's nothing wrong with me?"
Other than being Bi-Polar...and total victim in denial..and a completely unreasonable abusive person with no respect for anyone and who expects everything from everyone else but had no need to do anything in return because....they owe it to me. And in general....completely Thankless, Unappreciative and completely dismissive of everyone else and no ability to see where she had done anything wrong in entire life? On top of that.....abusing her own children , abusing her ex husbands, abusing anyone who conflicted with her on anything..... and taking no responsibility for that and seemingly ......without the ability to care about anyone but herself and what she wanted at all times and blamed her own children for what was wrong with her?
If you take away all those things....then I guess...she did nothing wrong and would have no need to ashamed of herself?
I've only have two words for myself after that story!
Jesus and Self-awareness...Jesus so I can know what right and wrong is (and if I can't learn right and wrong, maybe I can at least learn Grace and forgiveness)....I didn't do anything wrong, and their is nothing wrong w/ me...How sad is that? Because like ur MIL, who I would guess truly believed that...all of us can believe it at times...:(
And Self-awareness so I want fail to see I believe it.....Death becomes us! 2-Corinthians 4:11...
C
I understand the thread is about shame...
I know the thread is about shame and the feelings of inadequacy triggered in my partner. But I'm at a point now where it feels as though everything is a trigger. If I say "Hey honey, you left the gate open. Just be careful because the dog got out", that's a trigger that promotes feelings of shame followed by anger. And now if something doesn't go to my spouse's liking, such as not being able to go to an event because the baby has gotten overtired and fallen asleep, he'll tell me "No, don't say we can't go. That's a trigger!" Now that my spouse is telling me "That's a trigger!" I feel like I'm being held hostage by his emotions.
Evie...Pointing it out.....
Notice your comments here....the true trigger is Pointing it out...It's not the issues...It's pointing it out....It's taken me 8 years (still working on it) to learn to live and let live...And not point out things....It seems to feel to my spouse that I am trying to control her when I make observations....I don't think you are, but, if it's going to be a trigger, then you need to just allow him to figure out what you thinking, based on your actions...Let him inquire to what you are thinking in certain situations instead of sharing your thoughts on the issue...It sounds like he is taking your thoughts or suggestions as you seeking to inflict control or make final decisions for him....I'm not suggesting you are doing this, but, it sounds like that is what he is hearing....
Peace is what we all seek, and sometimes we just have to accept the reality of our mates, and not get caught up thinking they think like we do...It really boils down to respect flowing two ways....I found out after much misery that pointing out (behaviors, what seemed obvious to me,) was offensive to her....
There could be many reasons a person might be on guard much of the time....I want try to list them, but, if your statements concerning your feelings about issues keep being met w/ negativity and defensiveness...The obvious to me is stop point things out to him....
This comment is not to belittle or be demeaning to anyone, but, when we assume that our spouse is identifying with us, or we can speak for them in any context, without their permission, that's control whether we recognize it or not...Throw in adhd and your from different plants, so we have to respect those differences....
C
Not disagreeing, but
But that leaves me in the "just let it go" scenario. No, I don't believe I'm trying to be controlling, but it feels as though I'm caught in the "just shutup and fix it on your own" scenario which is leading to a lot of resentment. Peace means never reminding, never "pointing things out". As you said "I want try to list them, but, if your statements concerning your feelings about issues keep being met w/ negativity and defensiveness...The obvious to me is stop point things out to him....". That implies the burden of responsibility is all mine. That I'm in an overly indulgent parent/child relationship. How does that work for anyone?
what can you take?
It doesn't work for anyone, in my opinion. So, just "let it go" is not the whole story, it's only part of the story, if you are going to move forward. Reclaiming space and time that you need for yourself is important. And getting out of the nagging parent/child dynamic has been really important to me - so soul sucking for me to hear myself be that person and it doesn't fix anything. The gate still gets left open and the dog gets out!
Melissa encourages us to work on things little by little - one thing at a time. For everything else you need safeguards, extra help and yes, you are holding the bag. But guess what, you already are, aren't you?
"You can’t do it all at once, so picking the most meaningful symptoms and habits to address is an important step. A couple might decide to: designate a time to work together to plan household tasks for the week; develop verbal cues to stop escalation of disagreements; or schedule time to be together to overcome distraction."
If they will not make any changes at all - not cooperate to talk about any changes at all - if there is no forward progress - then you have to decide what is good for you and what you can take. (and if you have children, what they can take.) Actually, even if there is progress, you may not ultimately be able to take the pace of change. Your sanity matters. Just like the ADHD spouse is asking not to have constant demerits for each forgotten thought or task through the day like a child - you may decide for your own or your dependent's mental health, you need separation or divorce.
https://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/three-legged-stool-adhd-treatment
Communication Evie.....
It's obvious what you are saying here is, that you feel alone...You feel you are getting nothing positive back (no help, no understanding) when you try to communicate about life issues....I'm not saying at all that you don't deserve his time, attention, and care....Because you do!....What I'm saying is that you can't go through life, doing the same things and wishing for different results...I know why u r here, the same as many of us...Just looking for any advice that is useful to help you....I know!
The only thing I can tell you is what has given me peace in circumstances I wouldn't choose....First without my Faith in my Heaven Father who is always present with me, I would have probably divorced her with in a few months after the wedding....Secondly I had to decide if I truly was committed to love her in good times, bad times, richer or poor, sickness or in health...I chose too....So I adjusted my life, to be able to deal with how she lives hers...I do not expect help, and I even expect her to increase my work load due to her super messy ways....
Also, I'm still learning....I suggest you always make mental (or written) notes about the things that most lead to conflict...You must be flexible with a adhd spouse who can hyper-focus....I think most non's end up full of anxiety when their spouse is in hyper-focus mode....I have found that true for me...When ever that kind of focus is directed at (person, place or thing) something you may find out for any practical purposes you don't exist in those moments. And it can last for days and even weeks in some instances...
You may find out you have very little patients for their reality. So you must accept it or be miserable.....Once we fully accept these things that or "fixed" in our spouses, (they must do the same with us) and quit trying to change them, then you can take a deep breathe and manage your life accordingly....Even if it means you aren't willing to deal with it any longer....
If an adult communicates, and accepts responsibility like a 8 year old in many area's of life; or you going to get out of bed each new day, and allow yourself to be emotionally destroyed thinking something has changed over night?? Do you know what expecting a person to change at an emotional level will do to your psyche and nervous system long term??
Resentment of someone who hasn't got the ability to produce or isn't willing to produce what you want from them will just destroy you if you don't accept it....That's the same in every reality of life.....Bi-polar, Personality disorders, add, adhd, narcissist, children w/ deformities, special needs children....It doesn't matter....Even those who feel they are completely normal will have things that those who co-exist with them will have to learn and adapt to....
The successful one's are the one's who accept that life will not be like they wish or want....And can still find peace, and who can still Love....
Evie; if he is living unapproachable....Then don't try....You will always wish you hadn't...Like I said, I know....If he loves you; and he is more aware than it seems....When you get quiet and stop engaging a defensive angry person....It will get his attention....but, as long you keep worrying, and keep trying to point out and force his awareness he is comfortable...he has you right where he wants you doing most of the work and complaining about it....
Changing myself is the hardest thing I've ever had to do....But, it's been the most beneficial for our marriage, and to promote awareness....
C
"Sponge Worthy" LOL
Just a bit humor here in light of my favorite "Elaine" moments on Seinfeld. Ar you Sponge Worthy? " I have to re-evaute everything now?"lol
In thd meantime.....George gets frustrated . lol
https://youtu.be/sfQBKB4s1ks
J
Shame WTF Fixing Roof
J- obviously you do not know me or my situation- but I am frankly not sure if you are supporting me or just blaming me for a being a victim.- I mean it is just easier to do that right. I mean if you don't have any helpful suggestions or cannot offer any support well gee why bother. I reread all your comments here and I am really amazed that you could make assumptions that I have not tried to make my situation better. I have climbed up on the roof to fix it, raked & seeded the entire yard, painted the entire first floor of 5 rooms, tiled the kitchen floor, gone to the dump, shovelled the driveway, changed my own tires etc etc.I have raised 3 sons, cooked for all the holidays and in short done all the stuff you seem to think I haven't. I haven't been sitting on my ass eating bon bons and watching the soaps. And I have been cleaning up the mess my ADD husband has been making all this time. At some point, I finally woke up and realized that I am a fool. I am upset and bitter and resentful and angry. I thought this forum was a place to vent and hopefully get some support. It seems that it is easy to sit on the couch, watch football and tell me I simply haven't done enough to help my situation. All I am asking here is this, what can I do when my spouse wallows in denial that he even has ADD, works all the time with nothing to show for it and basically undoes all that I have done. We have gone thru several foreclosures, IRS audits, several infidelities.. I live in shame yes-- because I am stuck in a no win situation. Can anyone offer any pointers or is this all just fluff. I cannot seem to read thru all the lines here. I want to be happy and I deserve to be happy- I in my own opinion have done all the "right" things-- so why am I so frustrated.? At some point the ADD spouse- my spouse has to wake up and say- Jeez- I HAVE been a total dick here- how can I make it right- what is the first step. Can anyone here offer and suggestions on how to make that happen? I can't get him to do something he just won't do. I mean I am getting all the emails about the save your marriage/relationship course. Now I need a website to go get a spouse to take it with. Or maybe that is just it. .. I have to go finish packing my bags.
.
.
Insight is All I Have to Offer .....Eyekahola
But Thank you for the feedback that I can respond to and maybe offering you something you can use....that is...in the way you can use it? This is my tendency to do anyway....start from the problem...and work backwards?
What I heard in both you comments was what came at the end (first )..throw my hands up....go pack my bags? Everything else I heard leading up this place as I see it as the "place you are in"....or your :"dilemma"....is where I always start and that is a real problem and a tendency I have to start there instead of somewhere else? I'm a fixer or problem solver by nature so this is the first place my mind goes but I already know that if I were just to say....do this...without something to work from even as a suggestion.....it's exactly what I am hearing you say you don't get and don't really understand mostly if I hear you correctly? Mostly what I'm best at doing...is taking things apart and standing back and looking at all the pieces to see where the problem is coming from? Then...I put them all back together and see if it works once I find the source of the problem or what I think is causing the the gears to get fouled up so to speak?
The feedback you gave here is good for me to hear....as you said..."obviously you do not know me or my situation- but I am frankly not sure if you are supporting me or just blaming me for a being a victim.- I mean it is just easier to do that right. I mean if you don't have any helpful suggestions or cannot offer any support well gee why bother."
A good place to start is what I just said....I'm problem solving mostly....not supporting per se....definitely not blaming...and definitely NOT seeing you as the cause for this? And because I don't know anything about you....all I can do is sight my own personal experiences..and try and connect them to the reasons why something works and why it doesn't work and give you the reasons..I feel that this is based on me and my wife and all the experiences I've had living with ADHD (to date)...and now living with a wife who is suspected of having it....which puts me in the same place you are....no doubt in my mind there what so ever....but with the difference here with me being....I have all my own experience with going through the process of getting myself out of denial....and into the process of things working for me...;..but ONLY AFTER THAT. Before that time....nothing worked and everything you said about your H was pretty true for me too....before that time of getting myself out of denial....but not now if that makes better sense?
I could say nothing you do will work if he's in denial and then just be done with it? Pack your bags...there's no hope in sight that would only confirm what you already know? What I can say is this is not the only solution from experience...but I were to give you the bottom line and list the simple steps from a set list of things you should do...."just do this and it will work"....that would be ridiculous and even really bad advise because I know it doesn't work that way? It's just not simple and easy and it always doesn't work? If you look at that last sentence...this is the truth. So now what? In my mind......dig deeper ....and take things apart of get the source of the problem..and then work back to the beginning again....from the source and draw a line that connects that specific source or "well spring"....to the well?
And everything in between the "source"....going forwards now the "problem"....covers a lot of ground and a pretty "multi layered"..convoluted "route' to get there and why....this ain't easy to explain or just tell someone....
"Here, just do this and it should work...but not always...now go." And pretty much....this what I hear many times and even what I got into context to what you were saying......"I've tried this...and it doesn't work?" I get that much....and I feel the same way as you sometimes about this. Just do this....here's script...and call me in the morning if your symptoms persist? This drives me personally crazy when I do that...and now it doesn't work? And the first thing I want to know is......WHY....it's not working?
And I get...in context to what I was saying....how you might be trying to apply what I said directly to you and what you are doing....but mostly what I'm doing even now with my wife...is paying attention to what "is not working"......more than what is .....even though that is really what I am hoping to see as the results of this many times ...and then don't? The same as you?
If you can get that what I'm not doing...is what you might experience with your H or think in those terms...and see me here the same as you and me saying to you.....this is what doesn't work...and this is what works but only IF..............and that "only IF" part.....has a lot to do with you?
How do you tell someone the :"only IF" part that has to do with them and what they do....without it sounding like a criticism? I don't know either...but I will make a stab at it and try and be more direct? It seems the only way to do it...but saying...if you can hear it without assuming anything...and see me as me just telling you what I think you should do from the same place I'm in with my wife (as you are) and me just speaking from experience (my own and what I learned from it ) as the two of us are just having a conversation as two people dealing with a person in denial, who is really defensive, is not responding to the suggested approaches or procedures or anything that the experts might tell you.... who is "highly resistant to change"...and is "highly resistant" to anything you do personally.... is not responding to any thing that the professionals have said to do or try..........then we're on the same page to start with and I can just speak about it what I think the problems are..and how to overcome them? I'll give it my best shot and see what you think?
What I "THINK"...personally from everything I've gone through myself....is that one solution does not fit all...first of all. In a general way yes....but what works with one person.....will not work with another. The figures or statistics say "this"...and "this" will work for most...but not all and this is what I'm most interested in? The more "resistant" a person is....the least likely it will work? That's not saying...to throw the whole thing in the garbage and throw the baby out with the bath water though...and this I've found is absolutely true? The reason for this is not so simple...but quite simply in actuality?
This is going to sound really bad.... but it's a just a theory I have based on both myself and watching others and it's something other than humans just to start with....but there is something in this that i think is really relevant and just possible way to explain this to you and it has to do with the way we learn things and commit them to our working memory?
The way they determine...dog IQ or "smartness" in dogs...comes from counting...the number of times they have to repeat a command like "sit and stay"...before that dog gets it and does this one command? Dogs in general have an attention span of about 4 seconds..and since you can't talk to a dog and reason with them.... you can teach them to learn new "tricks"....I'm using this short attention span thing...and applying it to having ADHD in a loose and round about way? I'm saying...I see this in myself...so I'm working off this speculation I have?
And within "dogs"...and the many breeds there are....you also have different "temperaments" that go along with them...which people like to categorize since....we all like to know what were getting when we buy a dog and all the reasons why when you go buy one? Makes sense right? Along with different temperaments...you've got what each dog or "categories of dogs" they come from....and what they were designed to do ( for humans that is....were the ones who bred them to be this way to do a particular "job" for us? Bear with me...before you think I'm crazy here. LOL
So if you've got 100's of different dog breeds and they taken each breed nd counted how many times it takes them to learn "sit and stay"....but some can learn in 5 tries...and others it takes 75 tries? Then why is that..and what's causing this ...in dogs?
I don;t know exactly...but "temperament" and "what they are bred to do"....seem to be the two main variables..and what those categories were designed to tell us...and within those categories and within those temperaments....it's interesting to see which dogs learn in 5 tries tries....and which dogs learn in 75 and everything in between?
But in respect to all of this and what I getting mostly...is that.....this is what we want dogs to behave like....dogs behave like dogs if no people come along and train them? We might say a dog is smarter because it learns to "sit and "stay" in only five attempts....but from a dogs point of view....."sit and stay"...has no real function to them what so ever? LOL In a dogs world without people in it...."fetch and retrieve"..."sit and stay"..and any other thing we want dogs to do...is pretty irrelevant to dogs...so why do they do this when we train them and what is their reward for learning it since...they have NO desire or reason AT ALL.;....to learn to :"sit and stay" ? That along with all the things that dogs do that we don't like? Like peeing inside the house.....biting.....or anything else dogs do that we don't want them to do so they can live inside our houses with us..or even just in the back yard and not be completely "wild" and "untamed"?
In the very essence of this....dogs are purely "instinctual".and if they could talk...they would explain their point of view from this instinctual perspective and tells us why they do things and if you think about it....why they do things...is not why we do them? lol this would be pretty comical all said and done?
Without getting into this theory I have any deeper. Humans I believe...are not all that much different than dogs in many ways and one of them has to do with "instincts" and the other one has to do with how many times is takes to learn something new and part of that depends on "temperament", and how we are raised (breeding if you will in terms of how we are raised ) which forms this mix of things that equates to...how many times it takes...to finally get something and commit that to working memory especially because of the shorten attention span or ability to stay focused long enough...to make a connection?
Here's what I think and the only way I can say this accurately. When I go about anything in my life and especially sports growing up...it's all about "training". If you were to say to me that I needed to be "trained" because my ADHD....I would probably have a conniption fit be very offended. lol But if you take that out of that context..and put into sports, or elementary school, or even dogs for that matter...I think I can approach this better and just tell you WHY...what works for one person...does not work so well for another and the reason why...speaking in these terms and what I think a person needs to do on the other side of this to make it work?
For myself...if I am willing and wanting to learn something new...or learn a new sport activity...I'm going to go through all of that effort and pain and working out in training myself to do this new thing I want to do? Volunteering myself to all that goes into it with a specific goal in mind?
But what IF......you have a person who YOU want to train....who is very resistant to this and is acting out passive aggressively in resistance to wanting to do this? What do you do now...and how do you get them "trained" so to speak?
Going right straight back to dogs and what you'd do there. Consistency...and repeatability...and being completely balanced in "timing"...reward...and doing it as many times it's needed exactly the same way each time...until they finally get it.
Reward....(no punishment)...consistency...and timing. Timing more than anything ..is really important due to the 4 second attention span?
In the essence of this...as a dog trainer. If you are NOT doing your part "right"...the dog will never learn to "sit and stay" if there is no reward or motivation for them in doing it for you? And if there is no reward...then they have no motivation to learn? And that reward needs to be timed....perfectly...to the behavior you want ie" "positive" reinforcement.
And the last thing...you ever want to do when training a dog...is "negative reinforce" in the form of punishment or anything negative. What you will get by doing that with a dog...is a mean dog who bites...and is afraid of you and will not co-operate at all....and will never learn to do anything but run away and hide from you every time they see you coming. That's exactly what you get with dogs...and I don't think people are all that much different?
Sooooo.....when it comes to people...and especially people who are already the dogs who were trained by "negative reinforcement" and now run away and don't listen, who are "fear biters" and uncooperative? What should you do...and what should you not do....and how long do you think it should take to ....un-train...the old behavior out of them...to re-train the new desirable behavior into them? How many attempts at doing this exactly the right way ie:
-positive reinforcement only ( no shame based, guilt based, negative reinforcement based ie:anger on your part or disapproval based training period...gone completely on your end if you want this to work)
- timing...the reward has to be perfectly timed to reinforce the behavior
-reward for good behavior....no reward for bad behavior ......BUT NO PUNISHMENT WHAT SO EVER!!!! I REPEAT, NO PUNISHMENT OR PERCEIVED PUNISHMENT WHAT SO EVER! only positive reinforcement and nothing negative from you. Gone...or it won't work. Like "0"
All I know is this eyekahola. I've tried everything in terms of applying myself, what I've learned and following the prescribed directions on the box with my wife...and nothing really seemed to work and we were getting no where? When I applied my personal "Dog Theory" onto this mix...and approached my wife...exactly as I said......this works and is working...but it took many, many, many, many, many, many tries and failed attempts ....before I saw anything from it myself.
And I just kept at it...and at it....and at it....and at it....and at it.....and at it...and at it.....and at it.....until I finally got the results I wanted....just as if...I was training one of my dogs? It's exactly what I did and what seems to have had a positive effect...finally....after that many consistent attempts done in exactly this way. Exactly this way....consistently..... at great expense of effort and frustration on my end to get there. And how. And nothing in return for all my efforts except more of the same from my wife. I got nothing during this process...but grief on my end. Nadda.......nichts......zilch.....0.......A BIG Negatory. (ASIDE FROM A SPLITTING HEAD ACHE...A MOUNTAIN OF FRUSTRATION...AND A FAIR AMOUNT OF ANGER!! LOL Yes...that did come with this I'm afraid...but once the results finally started showing....it improved ra;idly from there and is still improving incrementally at a slow but steady pace?
So how many times does it take to train a dog to "sit and stay"? Depends on the breed, their temperament, and their inherent ability? The method is still the same....the amount of times it takes it well? As many times as it takes to get there and that depends on which...of the 100's of breeds of dogs out there..that you are attempting to train using this tried and tue method?
As a dog trainer...what you need more than anything is patience...and willingness to go through this process and be consistent in praise and perfect timing in all things or it won't work but the goal or pay off at the end...will stay with them for the rest of their life. You only need to do this once....but you have to do it exactly "right". If you're not doing your part exactly right...it won't work. The "only IF" part if you can now understand what I was trying to say without bringing up dogs...in the way to do it?
I know that may sound terrible to equate this at that level....but as I am...and as I am a fixer....you do what you have to...to get the job done or you don't question why...once you find out something that works? And then you do it again....repeatedly..and get really good at doing it?
Repeatability, consistency, timing and reward...and then get really good doing it....and then never stop.
That's my two bits...and I'm sticking to it because it works. That's all I know? The hardest part in all of this for me though...was not succumbing or or defaulting to becoming a victim myself, not seeing my wife's behavior towards me as abusive (even though it really was), not having my feelings hurt, not taking this all on as personal to me, not taking her behavior as an offense to me personally, and remaining level and consistent despite ANY of my Wives failure to do this in return with me...and be consistent and unwavering with her.
The one thing that I do fail to do as a good dog trainer should but I'm only human and I have faults here but not say tha think this all all wrong of dogs and less to do with people I think. I will not stand for dogs biting me..and when they do....I kind of drop the hammer on them and its the only time I will punish them which comes in the form of a smack up side the head just once to get their attention. This of course will not work or would I even suggest it or consider it since I've never hit a woman and I'm not about to start...but within the smack upside the head for a dog only when they bite....there are alternatives to that get the message across that says...biting is not allowed!! It the one accepting to the rule as far as anything negative is concerned...but the shock effect is more the effect you want...and if you use that for anything else...it will lose it's effectiveness so it must be used only for biting...and no other behavior...ina metaphorical sense...if appropriately used. Timing again...timing is critical..and if you don't have your timing down....it's a wastes of time on your end.
J
J:
J:
One of the hallmarks of ADHD is a short circuit of the action/reward cycle. There is often a difficulty matching action/consequence/reward/punishment or applying past experience to current circumstances. The "dog training" you're suggesting might work well for two people committed to change... otherwise it might be picking up a lot of poop?
I don't know her complete circumstances but I have to wonder, based on her comments, if that level of cognition is there. I think the poster mentioned several infidelities, several failed business ventures, etc. that would suggest to me that absent medication and therapy, "this dog won't hunt."
From a practical standpoint? You can't fix someone who doesn't want fixing. I think we're talking basics to begin with. Do you can to control the bleeding financially and make an exist strategy possible. Set boundaries regarding the infidelities, ie keep disease out of the picture. Do what you can to strengthen personally and take care of yourself. Make things better for yourself whether you stay or go.
The Meta Conversation...or Meta Topic if You Will
I've been married before...and what didn't work or why it didn't work...was one person was willing. The other person was not. Period end of story. It was never going to work...no matter what I did? End of story. That's always a real possibility here? It's why....I actually found that the "marital promise" as "forever" and "Lifetime commitment"....was the very thing that kept me from leaving and nothing else? If it wan't for that....I would have been out of there long before that but stayed for that reason alone. The Promise and that was it. There was no marriage. The marriage was dead. But I was willing to try a resurrect what was dead for the promise at least...and give it my best shot?
But my ex wife was not willing and ...she had already left..and was just biding her time until something came along that gave her reason to leave...other than that...she had no interest in trying....or willingness to put the effort in...and was not even there....except in "living breathing functioning body"...and that was it. And nothing between heaven and hell was going to get her change from there?
This is a real possibility and I could not begin to even make a guess at who might be this way...or who might be the other way and not be in this state of mind? So as not to assume or give my completely inaccurate and possibly wrong "guess"....I'm going to automatically give the benefit of the doubt going the other way than this possibility and sight what you should do anyway....no matter what the other person is doing or likely to do? There is no crystal ball to work from...so the benefit of the doubt here....is not to assume and proceed accordingly?
But there is a reason to do this which I also found out from my experience with this. Proceeding accordingly and in the way you want to be yourself....can only benefit you. This was the point that I was with my ex when we went to see him for the first time..and this was direction he set me in...and I proceeded to it....despite getting no response or anything from my ex wife. I'm of the mind that says....marriage should NOT be forever no matter what you promised....if it is having such a negative impact on your life...and the other person is dead in the water..and is not willing to do anything more than be a constant negative drain on your life?
BUT....what I found by following in that same positive direction..and doing everything that I should do anyway for myself.....even though I did end upo getting divorced.....doing that anyway was not a waste of time or effort for me personally. It was not long after this...was when I first truly got diagnosed having ADHD...and I was already on the right path I should be on for myself and all that goes with it?
So speaking in terms of goals and what you want as a result....even if the goal is to stay married and not get divorced.....in light of this...and in light of the "wake" you create behind you in those terms.....creating a positive wake behind you even if a person who is dead in the water and not moving......"might" have a positive effect on them....and "might" get them to revive and come back to life?
But if you're just all bitter and spiteful and angry and are looking at it that way...even if the person you are with is being a total shit? Then you're allowing them to control you...and poisoning the water for you and so....at the end of my marriage..... and IF.....I had found my self in this frame of mind and NOW...it's over.....Now what? Here I am.....bitter, angry and left alone......is that a good place to be? I say NO...that not a good place to be..,.either divorced...or ...stuck in a dead marriage with no hope of ever being different?
So no matter what happens...and no matter where you end up....what good does it serve....not to be the person you want to be..and not do everything you can to be that way? Stay, leave...or stuck...in a dead marriage with no hope because of religious convictions or what have you?
Everything that I am saying and the process of doing even this dog training thing...is actually training you...to be more positive yourself, gain more patience and understanding, and not be a door mat and be an active participant...even if you got a sack of potato who refuses to move? In everything I am saying...and learning the skills in being more assertive, learning to listen, being mindful and insightful and all the other skills that are required to do this well and learn how to do this......are all benefits to you...directly...for yourself......even if you end up with nothing from the other person and even left or got divorced?
This thing that my T drove into my brain..and that I am now understanding in real time...with real time benefits to me directly no matter what?
"Don't male anything you do....contingent...on what anyone else does" (period ) Adding into this....do exactly what you set out to do..a nd don;t let anyone stand in your or divert you from your goal? Which in context to being the person that you want to be? If you are bitter and angry and all get up?
Is this who you want to be?
And if not? Then why are you this way now?
And if you aren't. Who's stopping you from being different that's this...regardless of what anyone does, says or any effect they might have on you to the contrary? With the one exception being finances. You have a right to control or have a say in the finances that will have a long term effect on your life and I would be pretty vocal ( as I was with my ex wife who was a shop- a- holic...and I took her credit cards from her and cut them into pieces and made her pay for everything with cash after 8 years of this compulsive nightmare she was creating. No problem with that...as far as I'm concerned and this was not going to stop other wise and my T backed me up on that one which she did agree too and I didn't just do it without her consent )
But as far as anything else goes and the emotional aspect....the risk of another infidelity or anything you can name as "hurtful" or "abusive" in a controlling way other than finances that is having a detrimental or negative impact on your life in the meantime....It serves no purpose ...to not follow through and be exactly the person you want to be...and not be a negative angry or bitter person....whether you stay...whether you leave...or whether your "stuck"...where you don't want to be?
No matteer what happens in the future.....continuning on the path that you want to be on...despite who sitting in the car next you...is never going to hurt you..and you will always reap the benefits of doing this....only for yourself..and no one else at the end of the day, year or life of doing exactly this? '
Not for anyone else...but for you...so your not living an angry life...and you are not your own worst enemy...for doing that to yourself? And not matter what...it never hurt anyone else in the process for being a positive person with their best interest in mind.
The problem with 0 sum thinking is just that. If you take something from one side othe = sign...then you have to take an equal amount from the other side to balance and always come as 0 on the balance sheet? It's always....win / lose.....lose / win....or draw...always. It's a poor way to live life...with this kind of thinking which only serves to keep this status quo alive. 0 sum thinking is the root of all disharmony...because it is dependent on someone else...to have your side go up...down...or stay equal.
If you never make anything you do contingent on anyone else....you are free from the Hell hole of 0 sum thinking..and now no matter what anyone does either positive or negative....they have no control of you and no strings attached to you that can cause your needle indicator on yourself...to ever go anywhere but in the positive zone and stay that way? No matter what they do. No co-dependecy.....no negative effects....all those sticky strings that bind you...are broken and you are a free thinking, free feeling...automous person...free of contingecies..and free to be happy.
NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE DOES....POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE.
And when you get rid of all those sticky strings that have you all balled up and tangled and disabled....you are free to be happy...because no matteer anyone else does postive or negative....you are free from 0 sum thinking....and the effects of living a 0 sum life.
With 0 sum thinking....the balance sheet always has to equal 0...and in reality...it never does and so your never happy because of it? Get rid of that 0 sum mentality..and you are free be happy even when the balance sheet doesn't always equal 0.
That's why you do it....it only serves you no matter what anyone else does. It's gift giving...with no strings attached but you decide in everything...and it;s always your choice.
That's the big picture.....the little picture or these contingencies that you're sighting ( as I see it ) are the trees...and are all the things you're talking about and I can't speak to those for anyone else since I'm not in place to say anything specifically with any authority about that? I can speak with authority on what I said...from experience...and knowing this works and is good advise for exactly the reason I found out by doing it...and the results I just described by following this myself. That's my experience only...I can't speak for anyone else who's tried this?
J
Nice advice J....But I do respect the challenge of it all......
Some times when I read my posts....and while I was reading this one you wrote about staying on the path you choose for yourself, along w/ your warning here about 0 sum thinking...You call it the Big Picture, and I agree with the logic..It's a similar place I have come to on my Journey....Acceptance of reality, and be fearful of only one thing..."My carnal mind, and what it's capable of"....
But there are higher barriers to this kind of thinking for many people, that you and I do not have at this point in our lives....Adolescent children in the home, dependency of income, and the curse. (Genesis 3:16)...
Women are more vulnerable; they get invested to the hilt...Not only in heart, but their very lives are a devotion to their husband, children and the marriage...Or it should be. So for them to be put or forced into a position where they can't depend on their husband to faithfully keep his vows, and be responsible as a leader and provider, there is the possibility of great changes, and great hardships for them....
Now I'm not saying it isn't a great hardship, and a bitter pill to swallow for a man to have to adjust to living with a W who refuses to accept her responsibilities in the marriage and home....But it's different....I understand that and I respect it....
But, no matter what you have to do, and no matter how long it takes you to make the changes.....Never live out your life bitter and angry w/ expectations that more than likely will never come to pass!....Please don't make that your identity, unless you love misery....We are all Loved, more than we can ever know!
C
Insight Appreciated andUnderstood--J
J- Thank you for your reply- it looks like there was a reply that either got deleted or didn't make it out of the crate.
Anyway--Your use of the dog training example made things clear to me--and it is a complete coincidence that recently we got a new dog ( about 6 months ago) and some of the things you talked about with the training of sit and stay have recently been an issue in my house. The dog is a rescue dog, came very sick with worms and was very much afraid. My H had the patience to coax the dog over a 2 hour period to finally accept some petting without growling. Talk about hyperfocus!! ( a term I never heard about until this forum) I did not want the dog- initially- it seemed to have been thru too much. But slowly the dog warmed up. After time and $$, we get all the medical/worm issues resolved.( Again money was being spent when it should have gone elsewhere.-my H has access to money that I have no control over- another problem in the marriage- he refuses to be constrained in making a budget - again another separate post another time) Our previous dog of 14 yrs had passed -it had been well over 5 years ago. I did not want another dog- the losing of a dear family member is always tough-whether with 2 legs or 4. H stated emphatically that he needed a dog ad nauseum- very much like a tantrum at times--and finally I caved. This was after 4 wks of double session weekly counseling where all the focus was on me being way too critical- we both attended these sessions.. It was all about me changing myself. I honestly felt that I was the only one contributing to the problems in the marriage after those sessions- I kept waiting for the subject to come around to what H could be doing as well-but I digress.. Shame ( I never knew what that was in relation to ADD until this forum) by the way was never brought up as an experience that my H could be having-- he still refused to accept the ADD dx that was given way back in 1996 -still in denial. So no talk about that then- again this was 6 months ago.
So back to the dog- so I have very quick success with getting the dog to sit & stay -like-putting on the leash when I would take her out to walk her-etc. My H was amazed that she did it correctly so quickly. ( originally with the old dog- I had the same success in the same manner- repetition until the dog "got it"). Like in my elementary school French class: ecoutez and repetez. So with this new dog it went easily as well. But the dog seemed to stick to me like glue and the vet said she was making a "transference to me" from the litter mate that dictated her every move. This became very annoying- the new dog treated me like a dog-reacted to me the same way etc. Okay so I decided to sever my contact with dog except for a few brief daily encounters- and turned her over to my H -I mean he wanted her- so he got her. He wanted a dog to take to work. And He took her with to a family outing that I declined to go to-(subject for another forum)-during those 4 days, dog had no choice but to bond to him- and it worked. She did retain the sit/stay I had taught her. But now my H got "distracted" and did not keep up with the repetition and some negative behaviors emerged. So fast forward to more recent times, the dog barks at strangers- but this includes a few family members who often drop by daily. It does get annoying that the dog barks at them. But I am alone a lot-so it alerts me to people being around- do you guys get campaigners knocking on your door a couple times a week?-. My H says he is going to get one of those collars and zap her every time she barks inappropriately. I disagree and veto it. (like that's going to stop him) I don't have any specific training in dog obedience but have read enough books and grasp the basic concepts which I used in the sit/stay scenario- so I totally get what you are saying- your carefully worded explanation to me was not seen as odd- in fact it hit the nail right on the head. I got it. But the what is making me perk my ears up (LOL) is that I gave the same explanation in much shorter style to my H to explain to him nicely and not criticizing of why the zap thing collar is not a good idea- ( aside from the obvious one- pain for dog- even tho my H says it is not the real painful kind- And oh by the way the dog is a small/medium dog and not suited to junkyard duty so why get the collar-- but that is NOT what I said to my H- no sarcasm =criticism- right?) I delicately point out that even by getting the collar it does not remove the fact that a human still has to be consistent in the use of it. SO basically who is training who? And also if we just hang in there and keep up the practice of distracting the dog when family comes over or say have the family member give her a treat etc then sooner or later the dog has to get it. I mean dog is basically protecting us-- as the vet explained it to us. She is not biting and not baring her teeth. So we don't need to spend more $$ ( that we don't have) on stuff we don't need- I have a room, cellar and garage full of that stuff- yes I have sold some of it and H doesn't miss it) I mean it is another item that H is currently interested in but he will soon lose interest in as soon as it becomes obvious to H that he has to " ecoutez and repetez.( and FYI- H gave me the whole explanation of the psychology behind conditioning etc- H has a minor in psychology so far be it from me to tell Mr. Expert Psychologist the merits of ecoutez and repetez" )
So I now suspect that he has already bought the collar but not sure if he has started to use it yet. At least it is not being used in my presence.
Oh we had previously a nice not criticizing discussion about the collar. And it came down to H promising to wait until we had gone thru a few more weeks of ecoutez/repetez. But H will not keep this promise.
In fact, one day I was with H and dog and certain negative behavior popped up about the dog not heeding the command to sit and stay while my husband had to go back to the car for something when we were out wherever. H says see this is when the "collar would be useful" I say lets agree to disagree and I demonstrate how the dog sits when I lightly press her hind quarters downward and say sit and then hold my hand in her face and say stay. So even before this we had been having discussions on how the repeating of this very action until the dog gets it -works. Not showing any emotion on my part- to dog or H- I had demonstrated that over and over again the dog will 'get it' if you are consistent and persistent. But this is where I think the ADD pops up= H wants immediate results- a short cut without the work- I understand it is not laziness H is impatient - ADD symptom right? So over several days I have occasion to demonstrate the what I call being the alpha dog and simply take charge unemotionally and reinforce the behavior I want from the dog- sit/stay or come so she can go into her crate when we go out for a movie.
OK- so back to your response to me I understand- and the faux pas I did make was to say to my H that maybe he should get the collar and that I would put it on him and maybe when he did the ADD behavior I could zap him and gently remind him of whatever...Needless to say that earned me a time out. H was quiet for once about the fing collar. But i think that when we got home, he went into his man cave and ordered the collar.
So back to the present, I am 3/4 out the door in this relationship, I understand your explanation- but I have to honestly say that I don't have much left in me to undertake any long term 'training" with my H. I am so angry-- I mean things go along for a while say 6 weeks and then the old behavior resurfaces-- and to boot I suddenly realize that I have allowed myself to enable- I don't want to enable but I have to ask if anyone else sees this in their relationship with an ADD spouse-?
there is a ton of covert manipulation going on.
And I know where it is coming from- my H had super over critical parents- so bad in fact that it is easy to see why the typical everyday problems of say having a neighbor complain of our messy yard, or a friend mad that we are late once again to their sit down dinner or we are late to whatever appt. that is/are just mere puddles compared to the tsunamis of barraging outrage that came from H parents. H tuned them out. He has made it an art form. Plus his family dynamic always included accusation, loud protesting, arguing from his parents that after say 45 minutes always always yielded into my H getting what he wanted. It was a sick kind of dance. If H wanted to borrow the new lawnmower lets say-- not that he mows our lawn now-- but then if he needed it to say mow a clients lawn -- and he wanted to borrow from his parents and they started out with no. You could always bet that 45 minutes later, that his parents would be helping put it into our truck. It went that way with every possible thing- borrow $, cars, tools, etc etc. I began to see it as a kind of sport that they all played a part in- that was the way they related to each other. I stopped being around when that behavior occurred. I certainly couldn't stop it. And yes sure enough it started happening in our relationship once family and house responsibilities got ramped up. A lot of stuff was ignored by me- I admit it and see it now. Love is blind. And I realize now that I was ( and am ) codependent and was just glad to get away from my abusive background and be loved and accepted. I let a lot of things slide. It is all so crystal clear now. You mention about the back of the hand thing- well my dad did that and more so I have a lot of abuse issues that have never been dealt with. I mean I could be on a box of noodles- I realize now that I never fought back or stood up for myself and was never taught how to stand up for myself. The one time I did in my youth I deeply regretted it. So I am now here on this forum because I need to get some validation even from strangers--and I need to figure out how to leave. Because I just can't handle this any more. I really want some feedback here from someone as to how they got the guts to make the change. How do I get the courage to leave? Thank you for listening.
So now it is almost 40 years later and the plot has thickened. I am miserable on almost a daily basis when I come out of my enabling behavior and realize once again that I have been "played". I know it- I feel shame-am embarrassed.I want it to stop. How do I do that? And why have I "put up" with all of this.? And yes it is abuse. Finely disguised abuse. I have been in denial. Now the hard difficult part is, I have to leave for good. I have left at least 6 times in the past 4 years. But I always come crawling back. And I am ashamed. and I want it to stop. But I have no one in my corner. I have no support system. I want to be shown the way. One of the most recent times I left, I spent a full 2 weeks crying myself to sleep every night. So are you saying that there is more of that in store.? How much more suffering until life says okay "uncle." I am a victim- How do I stop being a victim? There is only one support group where I live and everyone knows everyone. I live in a small isolated area. I know I have to leave. But the only offer I have got -has no privacy, problems of their own and some shame potential on my being a victim. I have a small amount of money saved but with a trashed credit rating and no income- I cannot get my own place. I may be "playing the victim" but what if I need help breaking out of that mold. I have spent over 50 years being that way. I have just awoken to the problem. I could list all the things I have been doing in my present situation to "pull myself out". I have b not been goofing off. I just need a little success or something to go right for once. But I do feel all alone. I have agoraphobia presently and am no stranger to depression.
Wow.....Thank You I Don't Know Whether to Laugh Or Cry!! LOL
What I mean by that...is a couple of things you said made me "laugh" incredibly hard!!! LOL I'll come back to that, but what I wanted to say first is about the crying part...and I can cry with you here in my own way...because I have been there before? If you want my honest opinion in light of the things you were saying......"agoraphobic"..."depressed"...."can't afford to leave"...."feeling ashamed or embarrassed"..... and not being able to stand it any longer? I can speak to these things with my own experience with it on a number of occasions and what I've found about this? In the order in which I would approach this to get yourself.....back out of it.....depressions got to go first....before you deal with the next step since it sounds like "situational" type depression ( maybe...I'm guessing this other than assume otherwise? ) But breaking out the mold is exactly right and this is really difficult to do for anyone especially growing up in the time you have and then all the changes that have taken place since (our beginning time ) to date? This is a huge problem but especially...when it gets engrained into our behaviors and thinking and you have to unravel this going back to the beginning ( kind of ) and start over again? In a more metaphoric kind of way?
This thing where the man controls all the money and the woman stays home and raises the kids has been going on for centuries. It was that way in my house and my mother was left helpless with very little control or say in the matter? What ever my Dad decided...was the way things were? I don't care if you don't even believe this is the right thing to do...if that's what you saw.....monkey see...monkey do? That's a tough one to get over...and there is a boat load of things to get past in just that alone? If you're fighting city Hall here....(centuries of the status quo ) you'll not be getting much but flack....as a means to combat the effect from this especially ( or even if ) the other person realizes this...but now has to do something different which is not only uncomfortable to do...but it takes you completely "out of your comfort zone" to do it. I'm saying that's on a guy perspective..in trying to get past this and for the most part....it's just too "hard" to do for a lot of people...so they just give up trying because it's "hard". Hard...as in...living outside your comfort zone for too long...before you retreat into the safety and comfort...of your comfort zone again?
This is really what I'm up against mostly with my wife ( with ADHD too ). The details of our story are different than yours (no infidelity or cheating in those terms....another topic like you say ) and no real financial problems but neither one of us are what I would call "high maintenance" or have a real need to just spend money for frivolous things....but even within that...changing careers after 35 years is taking a toll somewhat on finances at the moment....but with a lot of non-liquid assets in the wings that need to be sold and marketed which come in the form of "almost a guarantee" unless we have a nuclear Holocaust...and that I'm not counting on? But it stills leave me feeling vulnerable and out of my comfort zone and I'm trying to use that to stay motivated while in the meantime....fighting off that feeling of uncomforted and just keeping my head down and plowing forward with what I see as...a good...tried and true plan...that I've done before in different ways to know it will work. The risk is low...in that the worst thing that might happen is break even and just covering expenses without going into debt...but with a loss of time and work put in...that I'm not predicting since that nuclear Holocost is a pretty sim chance of happening? lol
I really urge you...to watch the video in this thread right at the beginning that Delphine included about shame by Brene Brown. This was an almost enlightening experience to finally hear what I've felt for so long...put into words and how men and woman....ARE different when considering this which is part of that "fighting city Hall " thing I mentioned which has to do with getting rid of the pressure that society or what we grew up learning..and doing it a different way.
So if you're there...fed up...depressed...spent and exhausted and can't stand another minute of this? What can be done here and what can you do about it? This is...and would be my plan of attach and how I would approach this myself?
1) Stop the bleeding!!! lol I don't care what you do....you need to do something to gain some control of your husbands spending habits that ARE....causing you to feel so vulnerable and out of control. Period. I'd be doing something or talking to someone who might help you do this..but doing this first....is going to stop the bleeding? Like....ASAP...or even yesterday...if that could even be possible. lol Will this be a fight? It won't be easy...that much is for certain? How you do this and the way you do it...will make a difference but you;ve got to do this and pronto ( quickly, hubba hubba, chop chop lol ) What they say...and they say it for a reason...Sex and Money....the two main reasons for divorce. And in those terms....Money first....sex second if you get what I mean? In fact...I would put sex down lower on the list but not off the list completely...just not as the main priority. I'm really saying that for any guy who might read this...but not assuming anything more about this only from what I know of most women and of myself in that....when the house is a mess and the finances are in ruin....sex in general...is the least thing on your mind at the moment? I could be wrong...that just my experience since in my past.....sex was always on my mind...no matter what was happening!! LOL Not so much anymore...but when I was younger for sure!! LOL Anyway...not to get side tracked here..but saying these pressures are causing so much stress and anxiety...that depression is almost immanent unless you get rid of that and do something to change this...first, before you move on to the next step which is....
2) The Depression. Your current agoraphobia...is probably due to that and nothing else I imagine...saying...it is for me and why I'm saying this? Take care of the depression....and the agoraphobia will go away too? So that's killing two birds with one stone right there and the best way to do it...is to get out of the house and away from all the "shit" ...just for momentary "breaks"...so you can recover better and get out and find some positive things to bring home with you ie: positive experiences.....what ever they are? Make sure you give yourself something only for you...and it doesn't have to cost any money either? Just getting around other people who are postive will help this out a lot!! But with the caveat...that when you come back home...you don't look at your H with disgust and tell him how much worse he is...compared to all these new positive people you might find out there? This is just you....feeling better in a positive place...and coming back and making this comparison. It not your H who's doing this....it's the effect it has on you and the relationship between you and your H that sucks and feels bad anyway? If you keep that in mind...you can keep this perspective and not see your H without that perspective and compassion. He's undoubtedly...not feeling all that great himself so it's good to remember that too?
So now....you just gained control of the financial pressure and can feel like you can have some say or control in your own life and how that effects you...and you've taken some control of your moods by dealing with your depression and getting out and finding more ways to do that? Now things are looking and feeling better for you only..and along with it...the power of control you get for yourself..and then feeling vulnerable isn't so scary and it's the FEAR in all of this...that is the most detrimental thing for you in an on going basis. It's the most insidious component to this...that is often over looked?
Being vulnerable...does not automatically equate to fear? Learning to become vulnerable without fear..is the tricky part that you have to overcome yourself.
I just made another reference to this about the drowning victim who needs rescuing? I was a lifeguard in college during the summer..and this is what you learn when you learn to save a drowning victims life? They will pull you under and use you as a floatation devise in a heart beat if they are in that moment of death and swallowing water and can't breath? I don't care who you are...if this is you....you'll grab anything to keep your head up above water...just not to die? And you may feel horribly later is you find out...that you drown your own rescuer after you're out of danger...but it doesn't mean you didn't do it...or wouldn't do it again under the same circumstances?
This is what I'm saying about....stop the bleeding? If your bleeding to death....your going to be grabbing at straws just to keep your head above water and not drown and this right there...is what everyone does...ADHD or not? It's why being in this Victim position...feels like there are only so many things you can to...and only so many choices you have to make...when your going under the last time? What you need is a floatation devise..and doing things for yourself..and stopping the financial bleeding...would be the first two steps I would take to get you up above water and again..and get rid of that depression?
What I'm saying is...if you can do this....you will feel different about things than you do right now and every decision or choice that comes after that..will just make things better with more choices and more control in an upward spiral instead of circling the drain?
But all of this...has nothing to do with your H. You have to do all of these things first and foremost for yourself..and then you can worry about your h and his issues and do things about those. The finances is one place...I think you should have a voice and you don;t need to think twice about that...even if the Mayor is having a problem with it. lol Just my two bits on that one?
And in the same vane of comfort zones for you? All of this...in light of the same thing I was saying about shame, vulnerability and the status quo? All of this...is probably not in your comfort zone to do...and it is equally hard to do on your part...but it is your part and what you have to do that your h can't do or fix for you? Getting more comfortable....being out of your comfort zone...with a pay off or reward for your effort in not being depressed, gaining or re-gaining control and getting more use to what your not use to doing ( comfort zone again ) is exactly the steps the reasons why..I think this is a really good approach and why I'm saying this is a good idea for you to do? In the end...it will only make you stronger and that can never hurt and can only help at the end of the day?
Okay, the part I was laughing about? The dog zapper collar? LOL I thought myself....what would be a great idea...would be to market ADHD collars for people with ADHD...so there spouses could just hit the button on the remote...even while away or at the store...to remind us to do things or to "stop" uncalled for behavior as a training method!! LOL I get the feeling however....that it might not go over so well ...but I'm sure it would work...none the less!! LOL
There's another reason why this wouldn't work..and I think Matt Groening ..( the creator of the Simpsons ) does a fine job of showing you why? The other thing that popped into my head about this and made me laugh.LO Shock Therapy!!
https://youtu.be/nG2DwL3MCT4
J
"Born Under a Bad Sign" More Humor
I had to include this because there is so much of me in here that it just made me laugh. Shit happens. Cause and effect!!
"What The Hell !!" LOL This was me. min. 10:40
https://youtu.be/hrRPDQ09hqQ
This made me laugh. What I thought was fun when I was a kid? No wonder my mom confiscated my parachute!! LOL
https://youtu.be/ubX6J6y40fA
J
Not Much Laughing A Lot of Crying, though
J- The Simpsons zapping episode made me laugh- and the mother's comment at the end with her saying- something like 'Just when we were getting somewhere' made me think yeah still no clue about what the whole purpose was. And the shrink becoming exasperated--I can relate to that.
I would like to stop the financial bleeding but I have no access to H source of money. The legal advice I got has been 'can't get blood out of a stone' or 'there is no way to access it'. It is all in cash or in an account I have no access to. Or he has business associates that dole it out according to what stage a project is at. Or he has pals who regularly 'exchange' money with him.
I have no say in that and have been overuled time and time again when I have tried to set up a budget or 'means' to live by. Even in counseling ( in the presence of 3 different counselors at 3 different stages of our married life) H has firmly stated that he is 'king of the castle' and that I have no business in being involved in his "business". That I simply do not have what it takes make 'business' decisions. He says if he tries to discuss a course of action that I always say 'no way- no'. I tell him that the truth is because the action is not a sound one or a reasonable one. and I give reasons- but he is resistant because I think he is threatened. I know his parents always kept a tight leash on him for money- in counselling it was revealed that his parents did not instill healthy saving and spending habits. Even when he earned money as a kid, they took it away from him and he never got to spend any of it. Maybe that is the short circuit of the reward system. In fact I once asked H's father for his opinion on allowances for kids- he told me no need for it- that he never gave his sons allowance- they did not need one. So that right there tells me why my H has a problem with money and why he won't let me " in" to the finances. I could expound on this phenomenon in our marriage in volumes. It has been brought out in the open in counselling. But I cannot get H to work on a plan to resolve it. He shuts down. So I did my own work around.
So fast forward to the present, I cannot find a job currently as I said as I live in a remote, seasonal area. Few jobs and many applicants and word of mouth is strong. So when I even obtain a job interview it always become apparent to me in the first 5 minutes or so- they know my H and his reputation precedes him.
This usually does not help me.
My plan is to leave, stay with someone who has their own problems and just cope as it is the lesser of the 2 evils but hopefully I can find a job as it is in an area with more opportunities. so save my money-which I am very good at doing. Then get my own place and start all over again at 62!
Yes,I have heard the it takes money to make money stuff ( what my H is always saying) but this is always a stark contrast to the actual state of out financial affairs which are always what I call "rob Peter to pay Paul to the 3rd power" In these counselling sessions-at each of the different time- the counsellor would attempt to get H to see that it was a necessary thing to include me --the spouse -in financial planning as it is part of being married. It always fell on deaf ears.
H would carry on about why it wasn't going to happen. I have always had my own separate account right from the very beginning. I always deposited cash into my account and then paid bills from there. I never would take a check from my H as it would 'bounce' 9 times out of 10. So I would get to bank and cash. Then put money in a separate account at a separate bank. Having a ck from my H 'bounce' would upset the applecart in the sequence of things. ck bounces so all checks I write bounce-you get the idea.
Since H has a large network of friends who will cover his ' $ deficits' he doesn't appear to outwardly 'worry' bout money. But the signs are there that 'tell' me he does worry about money- increased snacking, he leaves ALL this dresser drawers & 8 wardrobe doors open every morning-( which he usually does leave 1 or 2 open as a normal ADD thing) , lots of sighs and slamming of house doors and while he is in his man cave a lot of cursing. And a lot of internet activity if you get my drift. Luckily he never is physically abusive to me. Another ironical thing that happens is he starts to buy more stuff with money he doesn't have. So I have garage, cellar, extra room, etc full of this crap which I am always trying to liquidate. I have returned a lot of stuff as well. He 'plays' with this stuff for anywhere from a day to a week and then it is discarded-usually in the living room. I have just put it away and continued about my day. He says 'well he needed just some small reward- after all he has been working so hard' --I always say ok so have a kit kat bar like everyone else and then just get back to it.
Yes I now know that I was enabling him. But I couldn't stop him either.
In the past when I had a fulltime job and was making a fair amount of money- barely enough to live on- I was juggling it to cover the household expenses- every payday he was waiting for me when I got home with his hand out. Or he would come to work to try to get it- pretty embarassing to have your H bug you for money at work or keep calling you on the phone-. at first I would give him a minimal amount to make him go away. Then I found out he was giving some of it to his 'mistress' . SO I stopped. I paid bills only. I did not have enough left to save.
We started intense marriage counseling for the infidelity- H attended maybe 5 of the 8 sessions we were supposed to have.The counselor advised me to keep coming alone and said he had ways for me to handle my H. But those ways were extremely sophomoric when compared to the problem. No discussion of PA or ADD, no codependency talk - no we just centered in on my fallout symptoms of my abusive past haunting me. I left each session more upset than when I started. I finally just stopped going. H did break off the affair, though. So I guess that was the only good that came out of it.
Then my job was ended due to the company downsizing. H's business also met with economic disaster. We had several foreclosures, IRS audits etc. Once winter I had no car as we could not afford the $$ to register it , to insure it and to even put gas in it. And where was I going to go-no jobs.
I live in a remote area, so I need $$ and a car just to get out so raising the amount was impossible at the time.
I honestly thought I had to put up with it. I am not religious . We got married by a Justice of the Peace.But I did take my marriage vows seriously. I thought this was the 'for poorer' part. But I now realize I should have added a clause- if you try and try to make it better and it doesn't work out- well here is the get the hell outta Dodge card. I mean the forsaking all others part was broken by my H at least 3 times. I guess it is null and void from there on.
I also bought into the Cinderella Story big time- I honestly thought that my Prince Charming was going to do the correct things and end the problems.
My mom passed away while I was young, my father was physically abusive- several times I tried to get an adult to help me and that backfired because no one could believe that this was going on in my household- each time I sought outside help- I was physically beaten worse than the original beating I got originally that I had sought help for.
My H does not beat me. He never has and does not verbally abuse me. But I really think the atmosphere I am living in is abusive. Like I said before finely disguised abuse. If I were to describe the disrepair and mess that I live in you would be astounded. And I detailed to you just some of the stuff I did to carry my weight- as you seemed to think I had not in a previous post-- Again why haven't I left-- it only recently dawned on me that I could. But I would in my own mind- have to accept defeat- had I done everything I could to avoid this?
SO here I am now- I truly believe now that I have turned over ever last stone I can to try to make this all work. And i am truly emotionally exhausted.And to bring up the original thread- yes I am feeling shame and NO I don't like feeling shame. So in order to make the shame stop I have to realize that I must now make the very painful --inevitable --choice of leaving.
Because I have reached my limits of what I can bear.
Lately, all I get is/are excuses from my H that he can't do this because of this or that. OR that happened so he has to do this and so can't be available like he said he would. He insists that I just have to wait a bit longer then all will work itself out. But guess what - I have been waiting 10, 20, and now over 30 years. It is always something that prevents him from following thru. I can readily see that his actions disprove his verbal intentions.
I am so very close to being "both feet"out the door.
And yes why have I put up with this for so long- because I was afraid. Afraid to strike out on my own. So if this is what playing the victim is. I am guilty.
I do not want this crappy shitty feeling
I have to go on any more.
In order to make myself happy on any level I have to get out of this town. And i guess I was just waiting for me to give myself permission to do it.
Ok it is ok - you can go.
I am going.
E.....I Support You In What You are Doing
And I'm glad I made you smile:) I Love that Simpsons episode. The first time I saw it bust a gut laughing it was so brutally honest on so many levels.
I have to share with you my own experience with exactly what you were saying about your H and the money. I can add my thoughts to this and a couple of things I learned myself through my own researching this for answers? Just the things you said brought back a lot of memories as your H with him being in this position as his fathers son ..... from his perspective now and the effect his fathers kind of short circuited way of seeing things and the effect of those decisions might have had for him ( the ramifications that is ? )
First of all....that break I was suggesting? In lue of what you said....I still think you need it and that is the answer for you...and from the sound of it....this is the only way your going to get it. It doesn't sound like you have much choice here other than to do what your feeling is the right thing to do in your case. I think you are right. You just needed to give yourself permission to take this advise but apply it to the only choice you have left? I do support you here which I can give you at least my two bits from just what you said?
In the past when I had a fulltime job and was making a fair amount of money- barely enough to live on- I was juggling it to cover the household expenses- every payday he was waiting for me when I got home with his hand out.
In contrast, I am insistent that my wife contribute to her 401K every month and she puts as much in as she can. Right now she's putting $1.000 a month in which puts her next to 0 left over for anything else but a small amount to cover her own expenses and she can have her own money to use as she chooses. I'm not her Daddy you know? I don't need to be in the position of doling out responsibility either? This is very controlling behavior on your H's part I really think...and it controlling right into being abusive. I'm saying this because this is what I learned myself in this area. Withholding money or controlling it to the point that you have none.... and have no access to it for yourself is a form of abuse by this means of control over you whether your H realizes this or not? I'm thinking not...and he's not trying to abuse you...even if it is actually (even legally seen as ) a form of abuse. But saying....I didn't know this either until I looked it up myself even being on the other side of this like he was as his fathers son. (sins of the father? ) What you said here is a really big Red Flag in my thinking about this...
side note: this is where it gets all confused and twisted around I think? Recalling what happened with my ex wife and her shop-a-holic addictions ( retail therapy? ). To the point...she spent everything she had...and then more than she had..which ended up...taking away any share I might have for myself and what I made...to the point of having to pay for her shopping addiction? So now....I take her credit cards from her ( but with the council of our T....I conferred with and talked it over and this was the undeniable way to get her spending under the control? There another name for this....it's called Bankruptcy. And it's exactly what they do to stop someone like this. Take their credit away from them..to prevent them from spending any further? When I first started dating my ex-wife...she was still in Bankruptcy from...as she said..."sold a lemon car that needed a new transmission and that put her into debt" I can tell you one thing for sure.....this was not why she went into Bankruptcy but I was too naive and too trusting and just believed her and trusted she was correct.....which she wasn't? The problem with this is.....she believed it....that was the problem? The BIG LIE....as I call it? The one you tell yourself?
The most important point I wanted to make here...is the fact that NOW....I'm forced into this position with my ex wife...and now I'm the bad guy. Literally.....now I'm the one controlling her...because I keeping her away from the money? So now I am her Daddy....but I don't want to be? And she very quickly learned to resent this even with that agreement spoken openly and agreed upon? So now....no matter what I do....I'm in the wrong? You can't win for losing...in this kind of co-dependent dance? It ultimately lead to the demise of our marriage and only served to end up making me feeling neglected and drained? When you don't get any rewards for making a living...then your just making a dying...and dying slowly until you do? That's no way to live.....even if it's no ones fault? As said by my own father..."it doesn't matter who's fault it is....when you're dead? " He had his moments too....in a good way of seeing things.
He says if he tries to discuss a course of action that I always say 'no way- no'. I tell him that the truth is because the action is not a sound one or a reasonable one. and I give reasons- but he is resistant because I think he is threatened. I know his parents always kept a tight leash on him for money- in counselling it was revealed that his parents did not instill healthy saving and spending habits. Even when he earned money as a kid, they took it away from him and he never got to spend any of it. Maybe that is the short circuit of the reward system. In fact I once asked H's father for his opinion on allowances for kids- he told me no need for it- that he never gave his sons allowance- they did not need one. So that right there tells me why my H has a problem with money and why he won't let me " in" to the finances. I could expound on this phenomenon in our marriage in volumes. It has been brought out in the open in counseling. But I cannot get H to work on a plan to resolve it. He shuts down. So I did my own work around.
All of this resonated with me and I think you are correct. He was withheld from and this idea or thinking hiw father had was a rationalization in itself....."he told me no need for it- that he never gave his sons allowance- they did not need one." Really? Who's says.....YOU? Tell me more of what I need.....and what I don't need? Your the one with all the money....right? Isn't that...a bit....hypocritical I might add?
I am the decider. I get that. You want to laugh again....I just included this earlier but it's still gives me a chuckle just thinking about it. You want to hear rationalizations in real time done to a level of ridiculous....watch this video if your a fan of Will Ferrel. It made me think of it again when you said.."I'm the King of the Castle".....
https://youtu.be/ikMKJwbMQ_M
"It's Good to be the King".....quoting Mel Brooks? LOL What can you say? You might as well laugh while you're crying right... because it's so true?
I think it is unreasonable. I think you are right. And I think you don't have many options or choices here and you have tired everything already from the sound of it?
What I said.....Monkey See......Monkey Do ? "The abused ( or the Victim )....takes a piece of the abuser with them and then re-enacts that later onto others taking on the role of the abuser." To quote my councilor ( or T ) which ever you prefer?
And what I said in a post yesterday about fear and vulnerability...vulnerability equates to empathy? And what is threatening him..and what's his problem again? Oh.....becoming vulnerable if he lets go of the control over the money...that's it isn't it? And fearing being vulnerable ( or not allowing himself to become that way )...creates a situation where you are not allowed to have any control here yourself? And now here you are.....searching for "permission"....like you are that child? Your him as a child now....and he can't even see it?
What goes around comes around? Someone has to break out of the mold and I think you're doing what you have to do for yourself and I really do see this from what you said. I've said it in my own words too. "A mans gotta do....what a man's gotta do." In a healthy way...this means doing exactly what you don't want to dol...but you do it anyway. The opposite of being the "King"...and doing what serves you with no reward or pay off for the little guy ( or gal ? )
This sounds vaguely familiar...as in Donald Trumps ideas about how to run this country. Top down.....instead of bottom up. And he's got that same attitude as well......"It's Good to be the King". "King"....of the United States of America?? LOL I'm not buy it for second, because this is exactly what it sounds like to me? I'm not a huge Hillary fan either...but at least she sounds reasonable and is admitting her mistakes and saying why she thought they were? In the debate that I watched when she did this openly about the cell phone e-mail debacle and admitted her thinking about this after the fact was wrong.....Trump chimed in and said..." Oh no...it was more than a mistake"...and proceeded to tell her that she did it with intention...and then accused of her of what ever HE decided she did even after she admitted her mistake and error in judgment.
Really? Tell me more of what I'm thinking? You obviously can read minds? ha! LOL
I am the decider. It's abusive...any way you slice it...at others expense? Not who I want running the country? I'm the little guy here....where does that leave me?
J
"It's good to be da King" ( warning adult content LOL.....that's joke, not a warning lol )
https://youtu.be/l-2h4XnKZ3g